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question for the NG: did Lara start it?

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Anonymous
February 22, 2005 2:45:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).

So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?

If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 

-- G

More about : question lara start

February 22, 2005 3:15:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Gary Mitchell <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in
alt.games.tombraider:


> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?

You mean, female action hero?

Mrs. Peel, The Avengers, '60s and early '70s
Charlie's Angels, back in the '70s.
Wonder Woman, idem.
The Bionic Woman, idem.
Nikita, movie, 1990.
Sigourney Weaver, Alien movies.
Xena, Warrior Pincess, 1995(?).



--
CeeBee


"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 3:15:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In article <Xns9605CD7AC086ceebeechesterstartco@213.75.12.136>,
CeeBee <ceebeechester@start.com.au> wrote:

> Gary Mitchell <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in
> alt.games.tombraider:
>
>
> > So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>
> You mean, female action hero?
>
> Mrs. Peel, The Avengers, '60s and early '70s
Note: She wasn't the first female character in that series.

> Charlie's Angels, back in the '70s.
> Wonder Woman, idem.
> The Bionic Woman, idem.
> Nikita, movie, 1990.
> Sigourney Weaver, Alien movies.
> Xena, Warrior Pincess, 1995(?).
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (movie) 1992
Linda Hamilton - Terminator I (84) & II (91)

What you could probably say is that in the almost 10 years after AFTER
Lara Croft first appeared (1996) it was easier to get a show/movie about
a female action hero made (than the 30 years before that):

"La Femme Nikita" (1997) (tv)
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1997) (tv) (filmed in late 96)
Dark Angel (2000) (tv)
Alias (2001)
Elektra (2004) (movie)
Catwoman (2004) (movie)

(Though only "Alias" is/was on mainstream TV (ABC) in the US. )

--
see2go4me@yahoo.com
http://radio.weblogs.com/0104508/
Related resources
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 4:48:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>
> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>
> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
> Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
> any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
> our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>
> -- G

You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
:)  McG.
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 8:00:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>
>>I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>
>>So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>
>>If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>>Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>>any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>>our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>
>>-- G
>
>
> You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
> :)  McG.
>
>

Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that movie!

Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 

---
PW
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 12:28:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

CeeBee wrote:
>
> Gary Mitchell <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in
> alt.games.tombraider:
>
>
> > So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>
> You mean, female action hero?
>
> Mrs. Peel, The Avengers, '60s and early '70s
> Charlie's Angels, back in the '70s.
> Wonder Woman, idem.
> The Bionic Woman, idem.
> Nikita, movie, 1990.
> Sigourney Weaver, Alien movies.
> Xena, Warrior Pincess, 1995(?).


Evidently I asked the question wrong...

I'm not suggesting Lara was the first of *any* strong female
character in *any* movie or game. I was asking if anyone else
noticed the striking increase in Lara-like lead female characters
lately, since TR became popular.

For example... I recently rented Kill Bill. (Turns out it's
not my kind of film, but it was recommended.) The lead is a
very Lara-like female... a bit of a loner who'll stop at nothing
to reach her goal, and heaven help anyone who gets in the way.
Even some of her non-flunky female opponents are slightly Lara-
like. The producers themselves even mentioned (in the special
features section on the DVD) that there was a trend in having
warrior/adventurer/super hero type female leads in the movies
these days.

Now, does that description remind you guys of anyone? ;) 

Furthermore, this "trend," it seems to me, started no more than
about five or ten years ago. When TR 1 came out in 1996, Lara
quickly became very popular, and not just in the gaming world.
And in the gaming world, how many Lara-like lead characters were
there before TR 1? *Now* how many are there?

Maybe films like Alien started this ball rolling, (although
Ripply doesn't seem exactly like Lara, more like a victim who
doesn't knuckle under). Maybe it's just a coincidence that
Lara came out during the start of this trend and she didn't
give anyone any ideas that they wouldn't have had anyway. If
so, it's an interesting coincidence.

-- G
February 22, 2005 1:39:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Gary Mitchell <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in
alt.games.tombraider:


> For example... I recently rented Kill Bill. (Turns out it's
> not my kind of film, but it was recommended.) The lead is a
> very Lara-like female... a bit of a loner who'll stop at nothing
> to reach her goal, and heaven help anyone who gets in the way.

<snip>


> Now, does that description remind you guys of anyone? ;) 



Xena, warrior princess?




--
CeeBee


"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 2:46:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>>
>>> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>>
>>> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>>
>>> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>>> Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>>> any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>>> our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>>
>>> -- G
>>
>>
>> You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>> :)  McG.
>>
>>
>
> Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
> movie!
> Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>
> ---
> PW

Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although to
me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
McG.
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 1:25:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

I'd drink to that! hip hip HUZZAH! :o )

"Dr. Richard Cranium" <dracman@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:421b7af9$0$32081$a8266bb1@news.titannews.com
> Lara is already in British History ! Lara won't go down on anything
> including the Titanic LARA is IT!! the numero uno female
> Adventureer !!
> all other female character's are clones !!
>
> ** No Fate **
>
> cheers,
> dracman
> Tomb Raider: Shotgun City
> http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb.htm
> http://www.smokeypoint.org/traod/traod.html
> http://www.smokeypoint.com/tombraider1/tombraider1pictu...
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>
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> http://www.smokeypoint.com/tr2code.htm
>
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> http://www.smokeypoint.com/3dfx.htm
> http://www.smokeypoint.com/My_PC.htm
>
> ** Win2k and winXP hi-res with TR1
> http://www.smokeypoint.com/glidos.htm
>
> ** Tomb Raider 1 add on UB levels
> http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb2.htm#Tova
>
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> http://www.smokeypoint.com/uzi.htm#gta3
>
> Singles: Flirt UP Your Life - AI and character MOD
> http://www.smokeypoint.com/childrenspajamas.htm#singles
>
> ... so much of me...
>
>
> How is that relevant? In a discussion of morality, it's appropriate
> to call into question our assumptions before proceeding with the
> question. We aren't talking about society.
>
>
> My stuff for you at Maxis's you should previously be logged
> in at the Maxis web site Maxis login cookie on your or
> you'll see a Maxis empty page
>
> http://thesims.ea.com/mysimpage/simpage.php?avatar_id=3...
>
> ** No Pili'kia **
>
>
> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com...
>> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>
>> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>
>> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>> Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>> any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>> our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>
>> -- G
>
>
>
>
> ................................................................
> Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
> >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
> -=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 6:14:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>
>>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>>about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>
>>>"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>>>female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>>>whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>>>maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>>>much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>>>these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>>>but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>>>back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>>>
>>>>So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>>>
>>>>If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>>>quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>>>>Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>>>>any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>>>>our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>>>
>>>>-- G
>>>
>>>
>>>You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>>>:)  McG.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
>>movie!
>>Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>>
>>---
>>PW
>
>
> Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although to
> me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
> McG.
>
>

Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
(Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?

And, yes, there are a number of good female
adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ... oh
.... about 5 years ago.

Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious. That is just the Hollywood way.
"If it sells, imitate it".


---
PW
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 12:18:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Pistol Whipped wrote:
>
> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> > "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> >
> >>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> >>about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >>
> >>>"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
> >>>>female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
> >>>>whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
> >>>>maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
> >>>>much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
> >>>>these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
> >>>>but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
> >>>>back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
> >>>>
> >>>>So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
> >>>>
> >>>>If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
> >>>>quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
> >>>>Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
> >>>>any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
> >>>>our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
> >>>>
> >>>>-- G
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
> >>>:)  McG.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
> >>movie!
> >>Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
> >>
> >>---
> >>PW
> >
> >
> > Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although to
> > me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
> > McG.
> >
> >
>
> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
>
> And, yes, there are a number of good female
> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ... oh
> ... about 5 years ago.
>
> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.

Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
of this NG before.

> That is just the Hollywood way.
> "If it sells, imitate it".

Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
quite what I was talking about.

At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
I brought it up.

-- G
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 2:04:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
news:fySSd.87204$pc5.71526@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>>
>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>>> about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>
>>>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>>>> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>>>> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>>>> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>>>> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>>>> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>>>> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>>>> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>>>>
>>>>> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>>>> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>>>>> Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>>>>> any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>>>>> our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>>>>
>>>>> -- G
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>>>> :)  McG.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
>>> movie!
>>> Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>>>
>>> ---
>>> PW
>>
>>
>> Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although
>> to me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
>> McG.
>>
>>
>
> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
>
> And, yes, there are a number of good female
> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ... oh
> ... about 5 years ago.
>
> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious. That is just the Hollywood
> way. "If it sells, imitate it".
>
>
> ---
> PW

I must have been waiting for my first cuppa to be ready? ;)  No I
haven't seen War of the Roses. With those three together it must have
been a pretty good comedy :) 
"If it sells, imitate it" is just another business axiom :) 
McG.
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 2:05:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:421C4B3C.41F19560@ix.nospam.netcom.com
> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>>
>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>> about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>>>
>>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>>>> about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>>
>>>>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>>>>> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>>>>> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>>>>> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>>>>> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>>>>> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>>>>> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>>>>> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>>>>> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>>>>>> Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>>>>>> any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>>>>>> our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- G
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>>>>> :)  McG.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
>>>> movie!
>>>> Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> PW
>>>
>>>
>>> Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although
>>> to me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
>>> McG.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
>> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
>>
>> And, yes, there are a number of good female
>> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
>> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ...
>> oh ... about 5 years ago.
>>
>> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
>
> Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
> of this NG before.
>
>> That is just the Hollywood way.
>> "If it sells, imitate it".
>
> Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
> that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
> a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
> quite what I was talking about.
>
> At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
> discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
> fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
> I brought it up.
>
> -- G

Don't be sorry! It's good to see any sort of on topic posts in here :) 
McG.
February 23, 2005 10:22:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Dr. Richard Cranium" <dracman@compuserve.com> wrote in
alt.games.tombraider:


> all other female character's are clones !!

Problem is that a clone normally doesn't precede her parent.

--
CeeBee


"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:37:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Don't be sorry. Like McG said, any discussion topic is fine. And this *is*
about Lara somewhat (mostly - though not what you had expected). What can we
fault? ;) 

By the way, I've always thought Lara to be the starting point for other solo
female adventure games. Everytime I watch such a movie or a TV programme,
I'd think: now, that's from TR#, the level where Lara blah blah blah.

But your question was more about the rise of females in such roles right?
Yup, definitely. The men better watch out! Lara kicks some mean butt, you
know.

WY


"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:421C4B3C.41F19560@ix.nospam.netcom.com...
> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>>
>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>> about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>> > "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>> > news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>> >
>> >>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>> >>about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>> >>
>> >>>"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> >>>news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>> >>>>female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>> >>>>whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>> >>>>maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>> >>>>much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>> >>>>these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>> >>>>but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>> >>>>back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>> >>>>quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>> >>>>Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>> >>>>any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>> >>>>our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>> >>>>
>> >>>>-- G
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>> >>>:)  McG.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
>> >>movie!
>> >>Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>> >>
>> >>---
>> >>PW
>> >
>> >
>> > Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although to
>> > me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
>> > McG.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
>> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
>>
>> And, yes, there are a number of good female
>> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
>> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ... oh
>> ... about 5 years ago.
>>
>> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
>
> Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
> of this NG before.
>
>> That is just the Hollywood way.
>> "If it sells, imitate it".
>
> Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
> that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
> a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
> quite what I was talking about.
>
> At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
> discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
> fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
> I brought it up.
>
> -- G
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 3:44:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
about 02/23/2005 04:18 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>
>>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>>about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>
>>>"Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>>>>about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>>>>>female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>>>>>whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>>>>>maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>>>>>much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>>>>>these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>>>>>but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>>>>>back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>>>>>quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>>>>>>Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>>>>>>any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>>>>>>our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-- G
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>>>>>:)  McG.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
>>>>movie!
>>>>Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>PW
>>>
>>>
>>>Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although to
>>>me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
>>>McG.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
>>(Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
>>
>>And, yes, there are a number of good female
>>adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
>>getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ... oh
>>... about 5 years ago.
>>
>>Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
>
>
> Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
> of this NG before.
>
>
>> That is just the Hollywood way.
>> "If it sells, imitate it".
>
>
> Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
> that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
> a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
> quite what I was talking about.
>
> At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
> discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
> fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
> I brought it up.
>
> -- G

Why, Gary, I had no idea you held my opinion in such high regard! ;) 

Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old news". I'm
sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it could just as likely
be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none exists.

But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I should have
used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything which
likened its main character to Lara.

As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of it,
I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to believe
that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an obvious "knockoff".

.... And see, plenty of discussion. You even have me chatting about
something that I didn't have much interest in! :) 

It's all good.

---
PW
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 5:09:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Fr9Td.87612$pc5.34492@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
> about 02/23/2005 04:18 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>>
>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>>> about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>
>>>> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
>>>>> about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>>>>>> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>>>>>> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>>>>>> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>>>>>> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>>>>>> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>>>>>> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>>>>>> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>>>>>> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
>>>>>>> Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
>>>>>>> any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
>>>>>>> our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- G
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>>>>>> :)  McG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
>>>>> movie!
>>>>> Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> PW
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although
>>>> to me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
>>>> McG.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
>>> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
>>>
>>> And, yes, there are a number of good female
>>> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
>>> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ...
>>> oh ... about 5 years ago.
>>>
>>> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
>>
>>
>> Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
>> of this NG before.
>>
>>
>>> That is just the Hollywood way.
>>> "If it sells, imitate it".
>>
>>
>> Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
>> that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
>> a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
>> quite what I was talking about.
>>
>> At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
>> discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
>> fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
>> I brought it up.
>>
>> -- G
>
> Why, Gary, I had no idea you held my opinion in such high regard! ;) 
>
> Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old news".
> I'm sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it could just as
> likely be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none
> exists.
> But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I should have
> used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything which
> likened its main character to Lara.
>
> As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of
> it, I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to
> believe that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an obvious
> "knockoff".
> ... And see, plenty of discussion. You even have me chatting about
> something that I didn't have much interest in! :) 
>
> It's all good.
>
> ---
> PW

Oh hell no! If I'd known of it and *could* see it, I'd have to see at
least one episode just to see how badly they mangled Lara!
McG.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 7:13:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In article <dHaTd.42172$Bx5.34311@fe1.texas.rr.com>,
"McGrandpa" <McGrandpaNOT@NOThotmail.com> wrote:

> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Fr9Td.87612$pc5.34492@tornado.tampabay.rr.com

> > As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of
> > it, I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to
> > believe that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an obvious
> > "knockoff".

It was good for a episode or two... if you were bored on a rainy
Saturday afternoon... and your PC/PS2 was broken so you couldn't play
TR... but IMHO there really wasn't anything special about it. Unless
you're a fan of one of the actors. (Episodes are apparently available on
DVD but not the entire 3 seasons).

See: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0207919/

It seems to have its dedicated fans... Google can find you a number of
web sites if you actually care :-).

> Oh hell no! If I'd known of it and *could* see it, I'd have to see at
> least one episode just to see how badly they mangled Lara!

Standard episodic tv blah-ness... From the little I saaw there was no
"edge" to it or the characters. There was more depth/excitement in an
episode of "Charlie's Angels".

-Andy-

--
see2go4me@yahoo.com
http://radio.weblogs.com/0104508/
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:27:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"W. Y." wrote:
>
> Don't be sorry. Like McG said, any discussion topic is fine. And this *is*
> about Lara somewhat (mostly - though not what you had expected). What can we
> fault? ;) 
>
> By the way, I've always thought Lara to be the starting point for other solo
> female adventure games. Everytime I watch such a movie or a TV programme,
> I'd think: now, that's from TR#, the level where Lara blah blah blah.
>
> But your question was more about the rise of females in such roles right?

Well, yeah, sort of... the trend in general. Not that we see more
females in traditional male rolls, but more specifically: the Lara
type, the female lone warrior/adventurer types.

-- G

> Yup, definitely. The men better watch out! Lara kicks some mean butt, you
> know.
>
> WY
>
> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:421C4B3C.41F19560@ix.nospam.netcom.com...
> > Pistol Whipped wrote:
> >>
> >> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> >> about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >> > "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> >> >
> >> >>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> >> >>about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >> >>
> >> >>>"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >> >>>news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
> >> >>>>female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
> >> >>>>whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
> >> >>>>maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
> >> >>>>much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
> >> >>>>these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
> >> >>>>but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
> >> >>>>back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
> >> >>>>quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
> >> >>>>Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
> >> >>>>any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
> >> >>>>our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>-- G
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
> >> >>>:)  McG.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
> >> >>movie!
> >> >>Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
> >> >>
> >> >>---
> >> >>PW
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although to
> >> > me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
> >> > McG.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
> >> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
> >>
> >> And, yes, there are a number of good female
> >> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
> >> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ... oh
> >> ... about 5 years ago.
> >>
> >> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
> >
> > Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
> > of this NG before.
> >
> >> That is just the Hollywood way.
> >> "If it sells, imitate it".
> >
> > Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
> > that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
> > a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
> > quite what I was talking about.
> >
> > At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
> > discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
> > fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
> > I brought it up.
> >
> > -- G
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:49:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Pistol Whipped wrote:
>
> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
> about 02/23/2005 04:18 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> > Pistol Whipped wrote:
> >
> >>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> >>about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >>
> >>>"Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> >>>>about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
> >>>>>>female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
> >>>>>>whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
> >>>>>>maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
> >>>>>>much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
> >>>>>>these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
> >>>>>>but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
> >>>>>>back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
> >>>>>>quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
> >>>>>>Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
> >>>>>>any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
> >>>>>>our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>-- G
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
> >>>>>:)  McG.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
> >>>>movie!
> >>>>Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
> >>>>
> >>>>---
> >>>>PW
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although to
> >>>me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
> >>>McG.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
> >>(Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
> >>
> >>And, yes, there are a number of good female
> >>adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
> >>getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ... oh
> >>... about 5 years ago.
> >>
> >>Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
> >
> >
> > Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
> > of this NG before.
> >
> >
> >> That is just the Hollywood way.
> >> "If it sells, imitate it".
> >
> >
> > Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
> > that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
> > a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
> > quite what I was talking about.
> >
> > At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
> > discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
> > fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
> > I brought it up.
> >
> > -- G
>
> Why, Gary, I had no idea you held my opinion in such high regard! ;) 

Well, obviously you weren't the only one. It seemed for a moment
there that the whole NG was collectively asking me which rock had
I been hiding under for the past few years. :/ 

> Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old news". I'm
> sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it could just as likely

Do you really feel have to say hell and then censor it? Sorry,
it's just a pet peeve of mine... If you're going to say something,
just say it.

> be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none exists.
>
> But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I should have
> used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything which
> likened its main character to Lara.
>
> As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of it,
> I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to believe
> that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an obvious "knockoff".

It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
anyone familiar with TR.

To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 

-- G

> ... And see, plenty of discussion. You even have me chatting about
> something that I didn't have much interest in! :) 
>
> It's all good.
>
> ---
> PW
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 1:05:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

McGrandpa wrote:
>
> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Fr9Td.87612$pc5.34492@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> > In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
> > about 02/23/2005 04:18 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >> Pistol Whipped wrote:
> >>
> >>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> >>> about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >>>
> >>>> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard, at
> >>>>> about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
> >>>>>>> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
> >>>>>>> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
> >>>>>>> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
> >>>>>>> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
> >>>>>>> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
> >>>>>>> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
> >>>>>>> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
> >>>>>>> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock from
> >>>>>>> Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential detective), or
> >>>>>>> any other character that had some cultural influence. Hmmm...
> >>>>>>> our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -- G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
> >>>>>> :)  McG.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in that
> >>>>> movie!
> >>>>> Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---
> >>>>> PW
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :)  Although
> >>>> to me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of sorts.
> >>>> McG.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
> >>> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
> >>>
> >>> And, yes, there are a number of good female
> >>> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
> >>> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on ...
> >>> oh ... about 5 years ago.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
> >>
> >>
> >> Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
> >> of this NG before.
> >>
> >>
> >>> That is just the Hollywood way.
> >>> "If it sells, imitate it".
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
> >> that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
> >> a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
> >> quite what I was talking about.
> >>
> >> At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
> >> discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
> >> fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
> >> I brought it up.
> >>
> >> -- G
> >
> > Why, Gary, I had no idea you held my opinion in such high regard! ;) 
> >
> > Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old news".
> > I'm sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it could just as
> > likely be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none
> > exists.
> > But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I should have
> > used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything which
> > likened its main character to Lara.
> >
> > As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of
> > it, I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to
> > believe that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an obvious
> > "knockoff".
> > ... And see, plenty of discussion. You even have me chatting about
> > something that I didn't have much interest in! :) 
> >
> > It's all good.
> >
> > ---
> > PW
>
> Oh hell no! If I'd known of it and *could* see it, I'd have to see at
> least one episode just to see how badly they mangled Lara!
> McG.

From what I saw, it wasn't exactly a copy of Lara... I'd say it
was more like a cross between Lara and Indian Jones. Sydney in
Relic Hunter is a professor, like Indi, and more of a do-gooder
than Lara. Lara is in it for her own reasons, racing to be
first to get the prize.

I don't know how many episodes there are, but it ran for three
seasons. You could probably find it on DVD if you *really* wanted
to take a look. :) 

-- G
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 2:38:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"-Andy-" <see2go4me@spamworm.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:see2go4me-2871EF.04135524022005@news.giganews.com
> In article <dHaTd.42172$Bx5.34311@fe1.texas.rr.com>,
> "McGrandpa" <McGrandpaNOT@NOThotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:Fr9Td.87612$pc5.34492@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>
>>> As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of
>>> it, I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to
>>> believe that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an
>>> obvious "knockoff".
>
> It was good for a episode or two... if you were bored on a rainy
> Saturday afternoon... and your PC/PS2 was broken so you couldn't play
> TR... but IMHO there really wasn't anything special about it. Unless
> you're a fan of one of the actors. (Episodes are apparently available
> on DVD but not the entire 3 seasons).
>
> See: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0207919/
>
> It seems to have its dedicated fans... Google can find you a number of
> web sites if you actually care :-).
>
>> Oh hell no! If I'd known of it and *could* see it, I'd have to see
>> at least one episode just to see how badly they mangled Lara!
>
> Standard episodic tv blah-ness... From the little I saaw there was no
> "edge" to it or the characters. There was more depth/excitement in an
> episode of "Charlie's Angels".
>
> -Andy-

It really isn't worth looking up then for me, really. I rarely even
turn the TV on. When I do it's usually to pop in a movie DVD or in
special instances watch some News. So, I'll happily hang onto Lara :) 
McG.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 2:48:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:421DA40B.A892BEE6@ix.nospam.netcom.com
snip
> It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
> see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
> They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
> my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
> exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
> anyone familiar with TR.
>
> To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
> strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
> sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
> their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 
>
> -- G

It IS pretty amazing. There is a short DVD I have about Core and
TR/Lara. Smith discussed the idea and that Lara surprising everyone
became such a phenomenon. Tombraider/Lara Croft became a household term
in the UK in about a year. Everyone knows Lara. It was after this that
it seems big marketing studies were done. The character she represents
came at a very good time. People were ready for the adventurous Lady,
and not just the women :)  And Lara was for everyone, Mums everywhere
would pop their 5 yr olds in front of it :) 
Core/Eidos were blown away by just HOW well Lara did, and they admit it.
Nobody hoped for the kind of success they saw with TR.
McG.
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 2:52:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:421DA7B0.4B4E80F0@ix.nospam.netcom.com
> McGrandpa wrote:
>>
>> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:Fr9Td.87612$pc5.34492@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard,
>>> at about 02/23/2005 04:18 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard,
>>>>> at about 02/22/2005 06:46 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Pistol Whipped" <pwhipped@NOtampabaySPAM.rr.com> wrote in
>>>>>> message news:K%ySd.99218$qB6.82281@tornado.tampabay.rr.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from McGrandpa was heard,
>>>>>>> at about 02/21/2005 08:48 PM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospan.netcom.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:421A738D.A3E4DAD1@ix.nospan.netcom.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've noticed lately that many movies feature a "kick-ass"
>>>>>>>>> female character who fights like a super hero, goes on
>>>>>>>>> whatever adventure, etc. This is a fairly recent development,
>>>>>>>>> maybe a few years now. I don't remember this being the case
>>>>>>>>> much before the late 1990's, but it seems to be all the rage
>>>>>>>>> these days. I haven't looked into it to any huge degree,
>>>>>>>>> but it appears to me that most of this trend can be traced
>>>>>>>>> back to *Lara*, starting with TR 1 (around 1996).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, my question for the group: Do you think Lara started it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If so, Lara will go down in history as one of those pivotal,
>>>>>>>>> quintessential characters in our culture... like Mr. Spock
>>>>>>>>> from Star Trek, or Sherlock Holms (the quintessential
>>>>>>>>> detective), or any other character that had some cultural
>>>>>>>>> influence. Hmmm... our Lara... Not bad, huh? :) 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- G
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You never saw Romancing The Stone?!?
>>>>>>>> :)  McG.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ummmm. I don't remember Kathlene Turner (sp?) kicking ass in
>>>>>>> that movie!
>>>>>>> Now ... War of the Roses! *That* was kicking ass! :) 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> PW
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right. Andy put a bunch of good examples out up there :) 
>>>>>> Although to me, it appears that Lara did spark a movement of
>>>>>> sorts.
>>>>>> McG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not even a "lol" .... hmmm, have you not seen "War of the Roses"
>>>>> (Kathlene Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito)?
>>>>>
>>>>> And, yes, there are a number of good female
>>>>> adventurer/warrior/take-no-prisoners leads. I think Gary is just
>>>>> getting around to noticing something my wife and I picked up on
>>>>> ... oh ... about 5 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry Gary, but it was fairly obvious.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Discussing the 'fairly obvious' never slowed down the regulars
>>>> of this NG before.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That is just the Hollywood way.
>>>>> "If it sells, imitate it".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
>>>> that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
>>>> a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
>>>> quite what I was talking about.
>>>>
>>>> At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
>>>> discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
>>>> fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
>>>> I brought it up.
>>>>
>>>> -- G
>>>
>>> Why, Gary, I had no idea you held my opinion in such high regard!
>>> ;) 
>>>
>>> Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old news".
>>> I'm sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it could just as
>>> likely be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none
>>> exists.
>>> But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I should have
>>> used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything
>>> which likened its main character to Lara.
>>>
>>> As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of
>>> it, I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to
>>> believe that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an
>>> obvious "knockoff".
>>> ... And see, plenty of discussion. You even have me chatting about
>>> something that I didn't have much interest in! :) 
>>>
>>> It's all good.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> PW
>>
>> Oh hell no! If I'd known of it and *could* see it, I'd have to see
>> at least one episode just to see how badly they mangled Lara!
>> McG.
>
> From what I saw, it wasn't exactly a copy of Lara... I'd say it
> was more like a cross between Lara and Indian Jones. Sydney in
> Relic Hunter is a professor, like Indi, and more of a do-gooder
> than Lara. Lara is in it for her own reasons, racing to be
> first to get the prize.
>
> I don't know how many episodes there are, but it ran for three
> seasons. You could probably find it on DVD if you *really* wanted
> to take a look. :) 
>
> -- G

nah, my son is still trying to get me into Andromeda. He and his wife
collect all of it. As soon as any season is released they buy it :)  I
liked Kevin Sorbo as Hercules way back there. but I've kinda tired of
TV stuff. I have so many good games to play now it's just not funny,
and I have tons of TR user levels I haven't tried yet too. Plus, I want
to finish the TR's I haven't yet! Like Lost Artifact, I have it,
started it, but haven't got 'involved' in it yet. Looks great too. No
time for TV :) 
McG.
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 8:00:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
about 02/24/2005 04:49 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> Pistol Whipped wrote:

<snips a huge trail of forgotten memories>

>
>>Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old news". I'm
>>sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it could just as likely
>
>
> Do you really feel have to say hell and then censor it? Sorry,
> it's just a pet peeve of mine... If you're going to say something,
> just say it.
>

Why, yes. Yes, I do.
It's not for *you*, Gary! Its for the little ones standing next to Mum
or Dad. If the little one can figure out what word is under the
asterisk, then I agree, they're old enough to say it. But *I'm* not
going to be the one to teach them!

>
>>be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none exists.
>>
>>But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I should have
>>used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything which
>>likened its main character to Lara.
>>
>>As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of it,
>>I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to believe
>> that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an obvious "knockoff".
>
>
> It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
> see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
> They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
> my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
> exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
> anyone familiar with TR.
>
> To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
> strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
> sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
> their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 
>
> -- G
>

I think the moment I realized it was so big was when I saw the first "I
*am* Sci-Fi" ad on the Sci-Fi channel with Lara playing Pong.

Before that, I knew it was popular. It was just that, in my limited
imagination, I couldn't conceive of so many people becoming devoted gamers.

But then, how could anyone have imagined it would ever be so big.

---
PW
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 8:00:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In reply to Pistol Whipped's post:
> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
> about 02/24/2005 04:49 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>
> <snips a huge trail of forgotten memories>
>
>>
>>> Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old news". I'm
>>> sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it could just as likely
>>
>>
>> Do you really feel have to say hell and then censor it? Sorry,
>> it's just a pet peeve of mine... If you're going to say something,
>> just say it.
>>
>
> Why, yes. Yes, I do.
> It's not for *you*, Gary! Its for the little ones standing next to Mum
> or Dad. If the little one can figure out what word is under the
> asterisk, then I agree, they're old enough to say it. But *I'm* not
> going to be the one to teach them!
>
>>
>>> be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none exists.
>>>
>>> But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I should have
>>> used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything which
>>> likened its main character to Lara.
>>>
>>> As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard of it,
>>> I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I tend to believe
>>> that any self respecting TR fan would reject such an obvious
>>> "knockoff".
>>
>>
>> It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
>> see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
>> They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
>> my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
>> exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
>> anyone familiar with TR.
>>
>> To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
>> strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
>> sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
>> their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 
>>
>> -- G
>>
>
> I think the moment I realized it was so big was when I saw the first "I
> *am* Sci-Fi" ad on the Sci-Fi channel with Lara playing Pong.
>
> Before that, I knew it was popular. It was just that, in my limited
> imagination, I couldn't conceive of so many people becoming devoted
> gamers.
> But then, how could anyone have imagined it would ever be so big.
>
> ---
> PW

<steps up to mic and adjusts down the height a foot or so> The 1st time I
saw the cover of the TR game, I said (and repeated several times to others
thru the years); "An Indian Jones type adventure game with a chick with big
boobs? Damn! I wish *I* had thought of that?! This is the beginning of an
era we'll be hearing about for decades to come!" <resets mic to previous
position and steps back>

I too started to take notice of all the Lara Croft/Tomb Raiding type media
programs after I started playing TR. However, right or wrong, I just
attributed that to the same type of thing happens when one buys a new car.
Suddenly, it seems like there are twice as many cars of that same model, but
in reality, it's just one's focus has been altered to notice. <shrug>

<tosses coins in bag and passes on>

Ms T
--
If it's true that life is what you make of it,
I need a better recipe...,
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 12:05:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

McGrandpa wrote:
>
> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:421DA40B.A892BEE6@ix.nospam.netcom.com
> snip
> > It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
> > see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
> > They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
> > my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
> > exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
> > anyone familiar with TR.
> >
> > To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
> > strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
> > sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
> > their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 
> >
> > -- G
>
> It IS pretty amazing. There is a short DVD I have about Core and
> TR/Lara. Smith discussed the idea and that Lara surprising everyone
> became such a phenomenon. Tombraider/Lara Croft became a household term
> in the UK in about a year. Everyone knows Lara. It was after this that
> it seems big marketing studies were done. The character she represents
> came at a very good time. People were ready for the adventurous Lady,
> and not just the women :)  And Lara was for everyone, Mums everywhere
> would pop their 5 yr olds in front of it :) 
> Core/Eidos were blown away by just HOW well Lara did, and they admit it.
> Nobody hoped for the kind of success they saw with TR.
> McG.

Even *more* amazing is, after all that, what Eidos did to Core
and AoD. Rushing Aod out, and then gutting Core and handing
the franchise over to Crystal. <shakes head in disbelief> If
you have a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't try to squeeze
out the next egg, then cook it up for tonight's dinner. :/ 

BTW, I heard a rumor that Electronic Arts may buy Ubi Soft (makers
of Myst). Too bad they don't buy Eidos and take over TR.

-- G
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 1:19:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Ms T wrote:
>
[snip]

> <steps up to mic and adjusts down the height a foot or so> The 1st time I
> saw the cover of the TR game, I said (and repeated several times to others
> thru the years); "An Indian Jones type adventure game with a chick with big
> boobs? Damn! I wish *I* had thought of that?! This is the beginning of an
> era we'll be hearing about for decades to come!"

Well, you've got me beat.

When I first saw TR 1 on the shelf, I thought: "Tomb Raider?" That's
like: "Grave Robber." How good could game like that *possibly* be?
And of course, the buxom babe with the tight shirt and shorts was just
an *obvious* ploy to increase sales of an otherwise poor game....

Ah... live and learn, we all live and learn. :) 

-- G

>
> I too started to take notice of all the Lara Croft/Tomb Raiding type media
> programs after I started playing TR. However, right or wrong, I just
> attributed that to the same type of thing happens when one buys a new car.
> Suddenly, it seems like there are twice as many cars of that same model, but
> in reality, it's just one's focus has been altered to notice. <shrug>
>
> <tosses coins in bag and passes on>
>
> Ms T
> --
> If it's true that life is what you make of it,
> I need a better recipe...,
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 2:32:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Ms T" <anthropoid@none.not> wrote in message
news:8FzTd.22392$Tt.16033@fed1read05
> In reply to Pistol Whipped's post:
>> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard,
>> at about 02/24/2005 04:49 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
>>> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>>
>> <snips a huge trail of forgotten memories>
>>
>>>
>>>> Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old
>>>> news". I'm sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it
>>>> could just as likely
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you really feel have to say hell and then censor it? Sorry,
>>> it's just a pet peeve of mine... If you're going to say something,
>>> just say it.
>>>
>>
>> Why, yes. Yes, I do.
>> It's not for *you*, Gary! Its for the little ones standing next to
>> Mum or Dad. If the little one can figure out what word is under the
>> asterisk, then I agree, they're old enough to say it. But *I'm* not
>> going to be the one to teach them!
>>
>>>
>>>> be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none
>>>> exists. But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I
>>>> should have
>>>> used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything
>>>> which likened its main character to Lara.
>>>>
>>>> As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard
>>>> of it, I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I
>>>> tend to believe that any self respecting TR fan would reject such
>>>> an obvious "knockoff".
>>>
>>>
>>> It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
>>> see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
>>> They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
>>> my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
>>> exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
>>> anyone familiar with TR.
>>>
>>> To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
>>> strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
>>> sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
>>> their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 
>>>
>>> -- G
>>>
>>
>> I think the moment I realized it was so big was when I saw the first
>> "I *am* Sci-Fi" ad on the Sci-Fi channel with Lara playing Pong.
>>
>> Before that, I knew it was popular. It was just that, in my limited
>> imagination, I couldn't conceive of so many people becoming devoted
>> gamers.
>> But then, how could anyone have imagined it would ever be so big.
>>
>> ---
>> PW
>
> <steps up to mic and adjusts down the height a foot or so> The 1st
> time I saw the cover of the TR game, I said (and repeated several
> times to others thru the years); "An Indian Jones type adventure game
> with a chick with big boobs? Damn! I wish *I* had thought of that?!
> This is the beginning of an era we'll be hearing about for decades to
> come!" <resets mic to previous position and steps back>
>
> I too started to take notice of all the Lara Croft/Tomb Raiding type
> media programs after I started playing TR. However, right or wrong,
> I just attributed that to the same type of thing happens when one
> buys a new car. Suddenly, it seems like there are twice as many cars
> of that same model, but in reality, it's just one's focus has been
> altered to notice. <shrug>
> <tosses coins in bag and passes on>
>
> Ms T

But then two years later you are shocked to notice that half the cars
are that vehicle! yeah, that big :) 
LOL!
McG.
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 2:48:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:421EFC79.4F155CD9@ix.nospam.netcom.com
> Ms T wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>
>> <steps up to mic and adjusts down the height a foot or so> The 1st
>> time I saw the cover of the TR game, I said (and repeated several
>> times to others thru the years); "An Indian Jones type adventure
>> game with a chick with big boobs? Damn! I wish *I* had thought of
>> that?! This is the beginning of an era we'll be hearing about for
>> decades to come!"
>
> Well, you've got me beat.
>
> When I first saw TR 1 on the shelf, I thought: "Tomb Raider?" That's
> like: "Grave Robber." How good could game like that *possibly* be?
> And of course, the buxom babe with the tight shirt and shorts was just
> an *obvious* ploy to increase sales of an otherwise poor game....
>
> Ah... live and learn, we all live and learn. :) 
>
> -- G
>
>>
>> I too started to take notice of all the Lara Croft/Tomb Raiding type
>> media programs after I started playing TR. However, right or wrong,
>> I just attributed that to the same type of thing happens when one
>> buys a new car. Suddenly, it seems like there are twice as many cars
>> of that same model, but in reality, it's just one's focus has been
>> altered to notice. <shrug>
>>
>> <tosses coins in bag and passes on>
>>
>> Ms T
>> --
>> If it's true that life is what you make of it,
>> I need a better recipe...,

Well I ain't got anybody 'beat' on anything. My first experience with
TR was over at a buddies house. I was buying this video card from him
he had just got, but wanted an even better one just out also. He was
showing off this game demo that came with the card I was getting. My
intro to Lara was : "Hey, wanna see "Madona" as Indiana Jones?
<smirk>?" And I'm standing by his chair at his desk looking at this
14" monitor as the T-Rex picks her up and shakes her. Madonna? Pointy
tits, yep, that's about it tho ;)  But it was 3D, and for the day it
looked freakin fantastic! So I give my bud the dosh, he shuts down and
gleefully does the vid card swap and puts mine in the box et al. I was
in such a hurry to get back to Electronics Botique to grab a copy of TR
I didn't even stick around to see what his brand new just hit the stores
Monster Voodoo card looked like :) 
I got both TR and Quake running fine with that card pretty quick. I was
happy. I was a junkie with a great triple fix! :o ) But did I have
even a thought about just how popular the TR games/Lara would be? Nope.
Not until somewhere in the middle of playing TR2 and I'd found a.g.t.
did I have a clue it had sold so well :) 
McG.
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 3:00:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:421EEB33.AC1A5F2@ix.nospam.netcom.com
> McGrandpa wrote:
>>
>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:421DA40B.A892BEE6@ix.nospam.netcom.com
>> snip
>>> It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
>>> see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
>>> They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
>>> my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
>>> exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
>>> anyone familiar with TR.
>>>
>>> To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
>>> strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
>>> sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
>>> their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 
>>>
>>> -- G
>>
>> It IS pretty amazing. There is a short DVD I have about Core and
>> TR/Lara. Smith discussed the idea and that Lara surprising everyone
>> became such a phenomenon. Tombraider/Lara Croft became a household
>> term in the UK in about a year. Everyone knows Lara. It was after
>> this that it seems big marketing studies were done. The character
>> she represents came at a very good time. People were ready for the
>> adventurous Lady, and not just the women :)  And Lara was for
>> everyone, Mums everywhere would pop their 5 yr olds in front of it :) 
>> Core/Eidos were blown away by just HOW well Lara did, and they admit
>> it. Nobody hoped for the kind of success they saw with TR.
>> McG.
>
> Even *more* amazing is, after all that, what Eidos did to Core
> and AoD. Rushing Aod out, and then gutting Core and handing
> the franchise over to Crystal. <shakes head in disbelief> If
> you have a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't try to squeeze
> out the next egg, then cook it up for tonight's dinner. :/ 
>
> BTW, I heard a rumor that Electronic Arts may buy Ubi Soft (makers
> of Myst). Too bad they don't buy Eidos and take over TR.
>
> -- G

I sure agree with that one Gary! Eidos don't develop stuff. I guess
they front working capital for devs to work with. I never gave a lot
of thought to all of this angle until the clash with Valve vs Vivendi
Universal Games over Half-Life during development of Half-Life 2. It
was just after the gutting of Core by Eidos I found an article online
about the big lawsuit.
I learned that the developer/publisher problems have always been there.
Publishers, I now see them like mafia loan sharks. But where else is a
startup developer with a great idea going to get enough money to equip
and also live on for a few years of apparently just sitting on their
butts in hiding not saying what they're doing? A bank per se wouldn't
have anything to hold on to. I see the quandry that begat the end
issues too :)  Still, it seems that Eidos did really *badly* with Core
in AoD. In another year, AoD could well have been the release
competition to Half-Life2 and contender for GOTY. We all see the
potential, as well as the problems.
So near and yet so far... that's AoD.
McG.
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 4:26:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Gary Mitchell wrote:

> Even *more* amazing is, after all that, what Eidos did to Core
> and AoD. Rushing Aod out, and then gutting Core and handing
> the franchise over to Crystal. <shakes head in disbelief> If
> you have a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't try to squeeze
> out the next egg, then cook it up for tonight's dinner. :/ 

AOD wasn't exactly rushed - or at least shouldn't have been. Core were
supposedly working on the thing since Chronicles - by my estimation this
would be about 2.5 years. The problem was that Core were sitting on
their hands for much of this period. 2.5 years of solid development
should have resulted in a reasonable game, rather than the
uncontrollable botch that they did deliver.

It's also worth pointing out that Core's only real contribution to
Eidos' results has been Tomb Raider, both as a result of direct sales
and licensing (for ad campaigns and so on). We've seen more and more
bugs in the games starting with TR4 (look at the gameplay bugs in TR4
and TRC, not to mention the quantity of showstopping problems in AOD). A
flop like AOD hits game sales and jeopardises licensing arrangements. I
suspect that Core was suffering problems in its TR development team -
resulting in a game with serious technical and playability issues.
Core's management couldn't or didn't address these problems. My guess is
Eidos saw this, identified the risk to their bottom line and on that
basis decided to close them down. It's also quite possible that internal
politics in Eidos - of the "get rid of Heath-Smith" variety - also had a
part to play.

> BTW, I heard a rumor that Electronic Arts may buy Ubi Soft (makers
> of Myst). Too bad they don't buy Eidos and take over TR.

Now that isn't something I'd like to see. EA's reputation for treating
their developers well is poor at best - as I recall there's a class
action suit pending against them at the moment for inappropriate
treatment of developers. That worldview doesn't bode well for the
production of interesting quality games. Think of all those sports games
- would we see the same approach to Tomb Raider?

> -- G

- Arthur

"The other day upon the stair
I saw a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I think he's from the CIA"
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 12:18:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Arthur Green wrote:
>
> Gary Mitchell wrote:
>
> > Even *more* amazing is, after all that, what Eidos did to Core
> > and AoD. Rushing Aod out, and then gutting Core and handing
> > the franchise over to Crystal. <shakes head in disbelief> If
> > you have a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't try to squeeze
> > out the next egg, then cook it up for tonight's dinner. :/ 
>
> AOD wasn't exactly rushed - or at least shouldn't have been.

That's not what I read.

> Core were
> supposedly working on the thing since Chronicles - by my estimation this
> would be about 2.5 years. The problem was that Core were sitting on
> their hands for much of this period. 2.5 years of solid development
> should have resulted in a reasonable game, rather than the
> uncontrollable botch that they did deliver.

True, they (Core) did work on AoD longer than most of the others.
But it's also true most of the previous games were made using an
already established engine and game-making tools. Starting over
from scratch with a new engine isn't something to sneeze at. How
long did it take them to develop the original engine and TR 1?

> It's also worth pointing out that Core's only real contribution to
> Eidos' results has been Tomb Raider, both as a result of direct sales
> and licensing (for ad campaigns and so on). We've seen more and more
> bugs in the games starting with TR4 (look at the gameplay bugs in TR4
> and TRC, not to mention the quantity of showstopping problems in AOD).

That wasn't my experience. I had more trouble getting TR 3 to run
properly than any of the others. TR's 4 & 5 weren't perfect, but
in comparison, they were relatively trouble free for me.

> > A flop like AOD hits game sales and jeopardises licensing arrangements. I
> suspect that Core was suffering problems in its TR development team -
> resulting in a game with serious technical and playability issues.
> Core's management couldn't or didn't address these problems. My guess is
> Eidos saw this, identified the risk to their bottom line and on that
> basis decided to close them down.

Based on the few articles I read about this, it was mostly of Eidos'
doing. Making games like TR is a skilled, creative process. You can't
lean on them too much and expect good results. Eidos did way too much
leaning... hence my golden egg analogy.

> It's also quite possible that internal
> politics in Eidos - of the "get rid of Heath-Smith" variety - also had a
> part to play.

It's my understanding that was the beginning of the end at Core.
They started with Heath-Smith (during AoD) and it went down hill
from there, until there wasn't much left except a skeleton staff,
just enough to keep Core in existence.

> > BTW, I heard a rumor that Electronic Arts may buy Ubi Soft (makers
> > of Myst). Too bad they don't buy Eidos and take over TR.
>
> Now that isn't something I'd like to see. EA's reputation for treating
> their developers well is poor at best

Maybe, but IMO, they couldn't be too much worse than Eidos.

-- G

> - as I recall there's a class
> action suit pending against them at the moment for inappropriate
> treatment of developers. That worldview doesn't bode well for the
> production of interesting quality games. Think of all those sports games
> - would we see the same approach to Tomb Raider?
>
> - Arthur
>
> "The other day upon the stair
> I saw a man who wasn't there
> He wasn't there again today
> I think he's from the CIA"
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 12:29:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

McGrandpa wrote:
>
> "Ms T" <anthropoid@none.not> wrote in message
> news:8FzTd.22392$Tt.16033@fed1read05
> > In reply to Pistol Whipped's post:
> >> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard,
> >> at about 02/24/2005 04:49 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> >>> Pistol Whipped wrote:
> >>
> >> <snips a huge trail of forgotten memories>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Please, don't feel bad just because *I* find this to be "old
> >>>> news". I'm sure many people didn't realize it. And, h*ll, it
> >>>> could just as likely
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Do you really feel have to say hell and then censor it? Sorry,
> >>> it's just a pet peeve of mine... If you're going to say something,
> >>> just say it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Why, yes. Yes, I do.
> >> It's not for *you*, Gary! Its for the little ones standing next to
> >> Mum or Dad. If the little one can figure out what word is under the
> >> asterisk, then I agree, they're old enough to say it. But *I'm* not
> >> going to be the one to teach them!
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> be my Lara-centric imagination making a connection where none
> >>>> exists. But to be clear. I suppose "imitate" is not the word I
> >>>> should have
> >>>> used, although I can't think of a better one. I meant anything
> >>>> which likened its main character to Lara.
> >>>>
> >>>> As to "Relic Hunter", I've never seen it. And if I'd ever heard
> >>>> of it, I'm certain I would have made a point *not* to watch. I
> >>>> tend to believe that any self respecting TR fan would reject such
> >>>> an obvious "knockoff".
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't cost anything to watch a couple of episodes, just to
> >>> see what they're doing. Aren't you at least a little curious?
> >>> They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It wasn't
> >>> my favorite show, but I watched a few episodes. It wasn't an
> >>> exact replica of TR, but the similarity was unmistakable to
> >>> anyone familiar with TR.
> >>>
> >>> To have TV shows and movies patterned after a game character
> >>> strikes me as pretty amazing. When they came out with TR 1, I'm
> >>> sure the folks at Core *never* in their *wildest* dreams imagined
> >>> their little Lara would rise to such heights. :) 
> >>>
> >>> -- G
> >>>
> >>
> >> I think the moment I realized it was so big was when I saw the first
> >> "I *am* Sci-Fi" ad on the Sci-Fi channel with Lara playing Pong.
> >>
> >> Before that, I knew it was popular. It was just that, in my limited
> >> imagination, I couldn't conceive of so many people becoming devoted
> >> gamers.
> >> But then, how could anyone have imagined it would ever be so big.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> PW
> >
> > <steps up to mic and adjusts down the height a foot or so> The 1st
> > time I saw the cover of the TR game, I said (and repeated several
> > times to others thru the years); "An Indian Jones type adventure game
> > with a chick with big boobs? Damn! I wish *I* had thought of that?!
> > This is the beginning of an era we'll be hearing about for decades to
> > come!" <resets mic to previous position and steps back>
> >
> > I too started to take notice of all the Lara Croft/Tomb Raiding type
> > media programs after I started playing TR. However, right or wrong,
> > I just attributed that to the same type of thing happens when one
> > buys a new car. Suddenly, it seems like there are twice as many cars
> > of that same model, but in reality, it's just one's focus has been
> > altered to notice. <shrug>
> > <tosses coins in bag and passes on>
> >
> > Ms T
>
> But then two years later you are shocked to notice that half the cars
> are that vehicle! yeah, that big :) 
> LOL!
> McG.


Good point. When TR 1 came out, how many Lara types were there in
games? Now look at the shelves... a large fraction of them feature
an attractive, scantily clad female wielding some sort of weapon.

-- G
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 1:15:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Gary Mitchell wrote:
....
> Well, I wasn't thinking so much of imitations. What was
> that one TV series, Relic Hunter I think is was. That was
> a pretty obvious spin-off of Lara and TR. But that's not
> quite what I was talking about.
>
> At any rate, it seems my attempt to get some kind of TR
> discussion going in an otherwise practically dead NG has
> fallen flat. So, never mind, everyone. I'm sort of sorry
> I brought it up.

for what it worth I think Lara started or helped to start the current
female heroine wave. Not that there weren't any before but now (after
Lara) we suddenly have MANY. Maybe she just cought beginnning of the
way, hard to tell...

erik
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 1:18:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

CeeBee wrote:
> "Dr. Richard Cranium" <dracman@compuserve.com> wrote in
> alt.games.tombraider:
>
>>all other female character's are clones !!
>
> Problem is that a clone normally doesn't precede her parent.

first people say - if there is time travel where are all the time
travellers? And then, when they see a time traveller they are willing to
change the direction of causality to be able to deny what they see...
just an observation:-)

erik
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 1:36:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Gary Mitchell wrote:
> Arthur Green wrote:
>
>>Gary Mitchell wrote:
>>AOD wasn't exactly rushed - or at least shouldn't have been.
>
>
> That's not what I read.

I'm arguing that Core had plenty of time to develop AOD - they just
didn't use it effectively. That's why we ended up with a game that
didn't have tuned controls, that had major rendering problems and holes
in the levels. The original Half-Life took about 2 years, and that's
including a redesign part of the way through.

>> Core were
>>supposedly working on the thing since Chronicles - by my estimation this
>>would be about 2.5 years. The problem was that Core were sitting on
>>their hands for much of this period. 2.5 years of solid development
>>should have resulted in a reasonable game, rather than the
>>uncontrollable botch that they did deliver.
>
>
> True, they (Core) did work on AoD longer than most of the others.
> But it's also true most of the previous games were made using an
> already established engine and game-making tools. Starting over
> from scratch with a new engine isn't something to sneeze at.

They didn't need to start from scratch. They had a quite serviceable 3D
engine for Project Eden. Add dynamic lighting, lipsynch, ragdoll
animation and fancy specularity effects to that and you're in business.
ALternatively, you buy an Unreal engine or Quake 3 licence and run with
that. Splinter Cell proved conclusively that you can do 3rd person games
with ragdoll physics, lipsynch and dynamic lighting on multiple
platforms with the Unreal engine.

AOD's engine has problems all over. Controls aren't tuned properly -
hence Lara's fugue state on staircases. Auto-aim shouldn't have been
used. There are major problems rendering some content - think of the
weird effects on the guards' heads in the Louvre levels and the
invisible doors and walls. There are points where the game crashes for
no discernible reason. This was not even beta quality, let alone
finished product.

> How
> long did it take them to develop the original engine and TR 1?

Less than 2 years. From what I can tell, work on TR1 started some time
in 1994.

[ ... excision ... ]

>>A flop like AOD hits game sales and jeopardises licensing arrangements. I
>>
>>suspect that Core was suffering problems in its TR development team -
>>resulting in a game with serious technical and playability issues.
>>Core's management couldn't or didn't address these problems. My guess is
>>Eidos saw this, identified the risk to their bottom line and on that
>>basis decided to close them down.
>
>
> Based on the few articles I read about this, it was mostly of Eidos'
> doing. Making games like TR is a skilled, creative process. You can't
> lean on them too much and expect good results. Eidos did way too much
> leaning... hence my golden egg analogy.

Eidos were in financial difficlties at the time. They were hoping to get
a major boost in income from AOD. The game was late and it wasn't a
success. In my experience, a shortfall of that nature usually results in
someone getting fired - in this instance it was most of Core. Maybe it's
more like the golden egg turning out this time to be brass instead of gold?

- Arthur

"The other day upon the stair
I saw a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I think he's from the CIA"
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:28:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In reply to Gary Mitchell's post:
> Ms T wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>
>> <steps up to mic and adjusts down the height a foot or so> The 1st time I
>> saw the cover of the TR game, I said (and repeated several times to
>> others thru the years); "An Indian Jones type adventure game with a
>> chick with big boobs? Damn! I wish *I* had thought of that?! This is
>> the beginning of an era we'll be hearing about for decades to come!"
>
> Well, you've got me beat.
>
> When I first saw TR 1 on the shelf, I thought: "Tomb Raider?" That's
> like: "Grave Robber." How good could game like that *possibly* be?
> And of course, the buxom babe with the tight shirt and shorts was just
> an *obvious* ploy to increase sales of an otherwise poor game....
>
> Ah... live and learn, we all live and learn. :) 
>
> -- G
>

That last comment Gary reminds me of I read a sign on the wall in a
restaurant (in Ypsilanti, MI in 1989) which read: "Learn from other's
mistakes, for you could not live long enough to make them all yourself."
lol And for what it's worth, I know *I* couldn't have made a game (for one
platform, let alone multiple!) like TR nor any other, so I respected them
for their efforts initially.

I've worked behind the scenes for enough companies to know how politics and
the bottom line can (and continue to) ruin great ideas and functionally
enjoyable products.

Also, I *think* we'd have been willing to wait (and perhaps have
pre-ordered/paid) for TRAoD if we'd have been clued in (we the public that
is) that they needed a lot more time to honor their fans and newbies alike
to give us a [nearly] patch free game. YMMV

--
Ms T
If it's true that life is what you make of it,
I need a better recipe...,

>>
>> I too started to take notice of all the Lara Croft/Tomb Raiding type
>> media programs after I started playing TR. However, right or wrong, I
>> just attributed that to the same type of thing happens when one buys a
>> new car. Suddenly, it seems like there are twice as many cars of that
>> same model, but in reality, it's just one's focus has been altered to
>> notice. <shrug>
>>
>> <tosses coins in bag and passes on>
>>
>> Ms T
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:33:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

> Arthur Green wrote:
>>
>> Gary Mitchell wrote:
>>
>>> Even *more* amazing is, after all that, what Eidos did to Core
>>> and AoD. Rushing Aod out, and then gutting Core and handing
>>> the franchise over to Crystal. <shakes head in disbelief> If
>>> you have a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't try to squeeze
>>> out the next egg, then cook it up for tonight's dinner. :/ 
>>
>> AOD wasn't exactly rushed - or at least shouldn't have been.
>
> That's not what I read.
>
>> Core were
>> supposedly working on the thing since Chronicles - by my estimation
>> this would be about 2.5 years. The problem was that Core were
>> sitting on their hands for much of this period. 2.5 years of solid
>> development should have resulted in a reasonable game, rather than
>> the uncontrollable botch that they did deliver.
>
> True, they (Core) did work on AoD longer than most of the others.
> But it's also true most of the previous games were made using an
> already established engine and game-making tools. Starting over
> from scratch with a new engine isn't something to sneeze at. How
> long did it take them to develop the original engine and TR 1?

In AoD, they used pretty much all new everything. And still did a
pretty good job of not only presenting the essence of Lara herself
through the new stuff, but actually did build and add to Lara
effectively. I found through reading and watching stuff from Core
they worked hard to keep the Lara 'we know' and bring her closer and
more in focus (more realistic modelling, animation and sound). We have
seen (and Core spoke to this) the Lara game character progress, evolving
into a more realistic and (its certainly hoped) believable character.
Compare two others to AoD. Doom3, only the spirit of the story and
original game was meant to be brought out. id Software simply wanted to
give us the Doom now that they wanted to back in 92 and couldn't for
lack of technology. Even so, Doom3 was six years in the making. And
it's one helluva game too. Hated by many, loved by me! Quake4 is now a
little over four years in the making with hints of a release sometime in
2005. Half-Life 2 was developed in much the same spirit AoD was.
Valve wanted to keep the look and feel, the gameplay, of Half-Life the
original, but with all the bells and whistles of modern technology they
could use effectively in context. Five and a half years in the making.
With a huge fiasco more than a year before it actually was released
where it COULD have been released and been somewhat similar to what AoD
was when it was shoved out the door to US. But Valve hung onto the game
and DID finish it. It too is one helluva game, and lots of people love
the game (including me) but have issues with the distribution and
control mechanism named "Steam". There was a dev team already working
on HL2 when HL was released. The money for development was there and it
was NOT from any publisher.
So I'm saying that I believe two points about this discussion. 1) is
that Core DID need at *least* another year to complete AoD and it be
released as a GOOD game. 2) Core had to deal with issues of control and
management from the publisher, Eidos. This one is an issue that NONE of
the above successes had to contend with internally. I feel that Core
was cooking up a great pot of stew and Eidos kept coming in and sneezing
in it. To put it nicely. meddling.
Also, CryTek had UbiSoft issues to contend with and I feel it shows.
About halfway through Far Cry, things seem to get really 'arcady'. And
while I love playing the beautifully rendered game, I hate that it
shifted from a 'normal' focus to one of a shooting gallery.

In short, I do lay the blame on Eidos, not Core, for the deficiencies of
AoD.


>
>> It's also worth pointing out that Core's only real contribution to
>> Eidos' results has been Tomb Raider, both as a result of direct sales
>> and licensing (for ad campaigns and so on). We've seen more and more
>> bugs in the games starting with TR4 (look at the gameplay bugs in TR4
>> and TRC, not to mention the quantity of showstopping problems in
>> AOD).
>
> That wasn't my experience. I had more trouble getting TR 3 to run
> properly than any of the others. TR's 4 & 5 weren't perfect, but
> in comparison, they were relatively trouble free for me.
>
>>> A flop like AOD hits game sales and jeopardises licensing
>>> arrangements. I
>> suspect that Core was suffering problems in its TR development team -
>> resulting in a game with serious technical and playability issues.
>> Core's management couldn't or didn't address these problems. My
>> guess is Eidos saw this, identified the risk to their bottom line
>> and on that basis decided to close them down.
>
> Based on the few articles I read about this, it was mostly of Eidos'
> doing. Making games like TR is a skilled, creative process. You
> can't lean on them too much and expect good results. Eidos did way
> too much leaning... hence my golden egg analogy.
>
>> It's also quite possible that internal
>> politics in Eidos - of the "get rid of Heath-Smith" variety - also
>> had a part to play.
>
> It's my understanding that was the beginning of the end at Core.
> They started with Heath-Smith (during AoD) and it went down hill
> from there, until there wasn't much left except a skeleton staff,
> just enough to keep Core in existence.
>
>>> BTW, I heard a rumor that Electronic Arts may buy Ubi Soft (makers
>>> of Myst). Too bad they don't buy Eidos and take over TR.

CYAN Productions is the original development team for Myst. I don't
know if they still own it though.

>>
>> Now that isn't something I'd like to see. EA's reputation for
>> treating their developers well is poor at best

And I feel that UbiSoft is worse, so things get a LITTLE better if EA
buys em. Certainly UbiSoft is far worse in their dealings with users
(us) than EA is. I have always managed to get intelligent and
reasonable responses from EA and never from UbiSoft. My dealings with
EA wasn't in games though. Graphics program.

>
> Maybe, but IMO, they couldn't be too much worse than Eidos.
>
> -- G
>
>> - as I recall there's a class
>> action suit pending against them at the moment for inappropriate
>> treatment of developers. That worldview doesn't bode well for the
>> production of interesting quality games. Think of all those sports
>> games - would we see the same approach to Tomb Raider?
>>
>> - Arthur

??? Are we looking at Tombraider somehow coming under the command of
EA? Or worse, UbiSoft?

>>
>> "The other day upon the stair
>> I saw a man who wasn't there
>> He wasn't there again today
>> I think he's from the CIA"


How ya been AG?
McG.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 5:18:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Ms T" <anthropoid@none.not> wrote in message
news:if8Ud.23632$Tt.21976@fed1read05
> In reply to McGrandpa's post:
>> "Gary Mitchell" wrote:
>>> Pistol Whipped wrote:
snip
>>
>> Excuse me, may I intrude? Thank you :)  Perhaps he's trying to say
>> it's ok to "curse in pretense"? I can also liken it to "guarded
>> speak", such as cupping ones hand over side of mouth then speak in
>> loud whisper. It's an interesting discussion. Doesn't the use of
>> words in this way have a little feel of sarcasm, always?
>> McG.
>
> Thank you McG. "...a little feel of sarcasm" was the phrase I was
> seeking, but knew with these two fine TR fan peeps, they'd work it
> out in the nice way they are doing. I wish everyone could be like
> them when having a discussion or disagreement in a newsgroup!!!
> <starts to pull out pom-poms then realizes that would be over kill to
> explain point>
> Anyway, thought I'd also toss in that when I was ages 5-11, my
> grandmother lived next door to us and to her, swearing "just made you
> look stupid" plus my oldest brother considered "YABBADABBADOOOOO"
> swearing. It is a rare moment for me to "swear" (see signature), but
> sometimes, to be funny or make a point I've been known to strongly
> say "DRATS".
> I've adopted Farscape's "Frell" and "Dren" to fill in for lost time.
> lol

Hm... not to detract from their discussion, not in the least. I feel
there is still something that's occuring when people do the speak in
pretense that hasn't been spoken to yet. Maybe it's an ambiguity of
intention. It's really meant that more than one thought go across.
That it works seems to be something in our mental makeup, and it defies
the 'written convention' entirely. To this, Gary is on one 'side' and
PW on the other. Yet, they're both 'right'. Neither are wrong, both
arguments are perfectly valid. Sigh, at this moment, I wish I were
better educated, and less tired :) 
McG. <psst...people DO this but they're not *supposed* to...>
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 6:48:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
about 02/26/2005 06:02 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> Pistol Whipped wrote:
>

I will not "argue" with you. You are bypassing everything I said in
order to maintain your own argument. This is not point/counter point.
This is you, ignoring what I actually said, and persisting in a dream
state where what you say must be 100% correct.

(1) What *you* see when you read "the word" is immaterial. Whether or
not it fools *you* is immaterial. Whether you *think* it would or would
not have fooled you when you were young is just simply insufficient
evidence of the truth of your argument.

(2) *3RD* definition?!?!? Try the first ... like most people. What in
the world would make you presume that I would read that word by its 3RD
definition?

(3) The pretense is yours. In believing that you even know whether or
not I am succeeding. You state that I am not, but you offer no proof.
You are the one attempting to maintain a false proposition without fact
(see definition #1, if you think you have, see point 1 above). Your
opinion sounds like pure tripe to me, because you do not even address
the argument I was making.

>
> That's not much of an excuse--especially coming from someone who
> just professed such strong negative feelings on the subject. In
> fact, it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. I would think
> you'd argue against using those words at all--asterisk or not.
>
> -- G
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 1:23:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Arthur Green wrote:
>
> Gary Mitchell wrote:
> > Arthur Green wrote:
> >
> >>Gary Mitchell wrote:
> >>AOD wasn't exactly rushed - or at least shouldn't have been.
> >
> >
> > That's not what I read.
>
> I'm arguing that Core had plenty of time to develop AOD - they just
> didn't use it effectively. That's why we ended up with a game that
> didn't have tuned controls, that had major rendering problems and holes
> in the levels. The original Half-Life took about 2 years, and that's
> including a redesign part of the way through.

I don't know this for a fact, but I strongly suspect Eidos was
pushing people out before AoD or during the early stages. In
other words, they simply may not have had the staff necessary
to get the job done any faster.


> > True, they (Core) did work on AoD longer than most of the others.
> > But it's also true most of the previous games were made using an
> > already established engine and game-making tools. Starting over
> > from scratch with a new engine isn't something to sneeze at.
>
> They didn't need to start from scratch. They had a quite serviceable 3D
> engine for Project Eden. Add dynamic lighting, lipsynch, ragdoll
> animation and fancy specularity effects to that and you're in business.
> ALternatively, you buy an Unreal engine or Quake 3 licence and run with
> that. Splinter Cell proved conclusively that you can do 3rd person games
> with ragdoll physics, lipsynch and dynamic lighting on multiple
> platforms with the Unreal engine.

Yes, well... "could have" and "did" are two completely different
things. ;)  I was hearing rumors well before AoD came out that
they probably bit off more than they could chew (in regards to
the engine).

> AOD's engine has problems all over. Controls aren't tuned properly -
> hence Lara's fugue state on staircases. Auto-aim shouldn't have been
> used. There are major problems rendering some content - think of the
> weird effects on the guards' heads in the Louvre levels and the
> invisible doors and walls. There are points where the game crashes for
> no discernible reason. This was not even beta quality, let alone
> finished product.
>
> > How
> > long did it take them to develop the original engine and TR 1?
>
> Less than 2 years. From what I can tell, work on TR1 started some time
> in 1994.

Hmmmm... well... they were pretty much working on their own at that
time. That wasn't the case during AoD. So, I still think it was
probably politics and bureaucracy, maybe the loss of certain key
programmers too.

-- G

> [ ... excision ... ]
> > Based on the few articles I read about this, it was mostly of Eidos'
> > doing. Making games like TR is a skilled, creative process. You can't
> > lean on them too much and expect good results. Eidos did way too much
> > leaning... hence my golden egg analogy.
>
> Eidos were in financial difficlties at the time. They were hoping to get
> a major boost in income from AOD. The game was late and it wasn't a
> success. In my experience, a shortfall of that nature usually results in
> someone getting fired - in this instance it was most of Core. Maybe it's
> more like the golden egg turning out this time to be brass instead of gold?
>
> - Arthur
>
> "The other day upon the stair
> I saw a man who wasn't there
> He wasn't there again today
> I think he's from the CIA"
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 1:35:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

McGrandpa wrote:
>
> > Arthur Green wrote:
> >>
> >> Gary Mitchell wrote:
> >>
> >>> Even *more* amazing is, after all that, what Eidos did to Core
> >>> and AoD. Rushing Aod out, and then gutting Core and handing
> >>> the franchise over to Crystal. <shakes head in disbelief> If
> >>> you have a goose that lays golden eggs, you don't try to squeeze
> >>> out the next egg, then cook it up for tonight's dinner. :/ 
> >>
> >> AOD wasn't exactly rushed - or at least shouldn't have been.
> >
> > That's not what I read.
> >
> >> Core were
> >> supposedly working on the thing since Chronicles - by my estimation
> >> this would be about 2.5 years. The problem was that Core were
> >> sitting on their hands for much of this period. 2.5 years of solid
> >> development should have resulted in a reasonable game, rather than
> >> the uncontrollable botch that they did deliver.
> >
> > True, they (Core) did work on AoD longer than most of the others.
> > But it's also true most of the previous games were made using an
> > already established engine and game-making tools. Starting over
> > from scratch with a new engine isn't something to sneeze at. How
> > long did it take them to develop the original engine and TR 1?
>
> In AoD, they used pretty much all new everything. And still did a
> pretty good job of not only presenting the essence of Lara herself
> through the new stuff, but actually did build and add to Lara
> effectively. I found through reading and watching stuff from Core
> they worked hard to keep the Lara 'we know' and bring her closer and
> more in focus (more realistic modelling, animation and sound). We have
> seen (and Core spoke to this) the Lara game character progress, evolving
> into a more realistic and (its certainly hoped) believable character.
> Compare two others to AoD. Doom3, only the spirit of the story and
> original game was meant to be brought out. id Software simply wanted to
> give us the Doom now that they wanted to back in 92 and couldn't for
> lack of technology. Even so, Doom3 was six years in the making. And
> it's one helluva game too. Hated by many, loved by me! Quake4 is now a
> little over four years in the making with hints of a release sometime in
> 2005. Half-Life 2 was developed in much the same spirit AoD was.
> Valve wanted to keep the look and feel, the gameplay, of Half-Life the
> original, but with all the bells and whistles of modern technology they
> could use effectively in context. Five and a half years in the making.
> With a huge fiasco more than a year before it actually was released
> where it COULD have been released and been somewhat similar to what AoD
> was when it was shoved out the door to US. But Valve hung onto the game
> and DID finish it. It too is one helluva game, and lots of people love
> the game (including me) but have issues with the distribution and
> control mechanism named "Steam". There was a dev team already working
> on HL2 when HL was released. The money for development was there and it
> was NOT from any publisher.
> So I'm saying that I believe two points about this discussion. 1) is
> that Core DID need at *least* another year to complete AoD and it be
> released as a GOOD game. 2) Core had to deal with issues of control and
> management from the publisher, Eidos. This one is an issue that NONE of
> the above successes had to contend with internally. I feel that Core
> was cooking up a great pot of stew and Eidos kept coming in and sneezing
> in it. To put it nicely. meddling.

It's quite possible they (Eidos) stuck their nose into the development
process to the point where it slowed things way down. Or at least they
made demands and imposed changes that added significant delays. When
something becomes as big and popular as Lara/TR, it's really tough for
bureaucrats to keep a hands-off mentality. I imagine that what would
normally be decided by two or three programmers was now being decided
by committee. :/ 

-- G

> Also, CryTek had UbiSoft issues to contend with and I feel it shows.
> About halfway through Far Cry, things seem to get really 'arcady'. And
> while I love playing the beautifully rendered game, I hate that it
> shifted from a 'normal' focus to one of a shooting gallery.
>
> In short, I do lay the blame on Eidos, not Core, for the deficiencies of
> AoD.
>
> >
> >> It's also worth pointing out that Core's only real contribution to
> >> Eidos' results has been Tomb Raider, both as a result of direct sales
> >> and licensing (for ad campaigns and so on). We've seen more and more
> >> bugs in the games starting with TR4 (look at the gameplay bugs in TR4
> >> and TRC, not to mention the quantity of showstopping problems in
> >> AOD).
> >
> > That wasn't my experience. I had more trouble getting TR 3 to run
> > properly than any of the others. TR's 4 & 5 weren't perfect, but
> > in comparison, they were relatively trouble free for me.
> >
> >>> A flop like AOD hits game sales and jeopardises licensing
> >>> arrangements. I
> >> suspect that Core was suffering problems in its TR development team -
> >> resulting in a game with serious technical and playability issues.
> >> Core's management couldn't or didn't address these problems. My
> >> guess is Eidos saw this, identified the risk to their bottom line
> >> and on that basis decided to close them down.
> >
> > Based on the few articles I read about this, it was mostly of Eidos'
> > doing. Making games like TR is a skilled, creative process. You
> > can't lean on them too much and expect good results. Eidos did way
> > too much leaning... hence my golden egg analogy.
> >
> >> It's also quite possible that internal
> >> politics in Eidos - of the "get rid of Heath-Smith" variety - also
> >> had a part to play.
> >
> > It's my understanding that was the beginning of the end at Core.
> > They started with Heath-Smith (during AoD) and it went down hill
> > from there, until there wasn't much left except a skeleton staff,
> > just enough to keep Core in existence.
> >
> >>> BTW, I heard a rumor that Electronic Arts may buy Ubi Soft (makers
> >>> of Myst). Too bad they don't buy Eidos and take over TR.
>
> CYAN Productions is the original development team for Myst. I don't
> know if they still own it though.
>
> >>
> >> Now that isn't something I'd like to see. EA's reputation for
> >> treating their developers well is poor at best
>
> And I feel that UbiSoft is worse, so things get a LITTLE better if EA
> buys em. Certainly UbiSoft is far worse in their dealings with users
> (us) than EA is. I have always managed to get intelligent and
> reasonable responses from EA and never from UbiSoft. My dealings with
> EA wasn't in games though. Graphics program.
>
> >
> > Maybe, but IMO, they couldn't be too much worse than Eidos.
> >
> > -- G
> >
> >> - as I recall there's a class
> >> action suit pending against them at the moment for inappropriate
> >> treatment of developers. That worldview doesn't bode well for the
> >> production of interesting quality games. Think of all those sports
> >> games - would we see the same approach to Tomb Raider?
> >>
> >> - Arthur
>
> ??? Are we looking at Tombraider somehow coming under the command of
> EA? Or worse, UbiSoft?
>
> >>
> >> "The other day upon the stair
> >> I saw a man who wasn't there
> >> He wasn't there again today
> >> I think he's from the CIA"
>
> How ya been AG?
> McG.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 1:48:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Ms T wrote:
>
> In reply to Gary Mitchell's post:
> > Ms T wrote:
> >>
> > [snip]
> >
> >> <steps up to mic and adjusts down the height a foot or so> The 1st time I
> >> saw the cover of the TR game, I said (and repeated several times to
> >> others thru the years); "An Indian Jones type adventure game with a
> >> chick with big boobs? Damn! I wish *I* had thought of that?! This is
> >> the beginning of an era we'll be hearing about for decades to come!"
> >
> > Well, you've got me beat.
> >
> > When I first saw TR 1 on the shelf, I thought: "Tomb Raider?" That's
> > like: "Grave Robber." How good could game like that *possibly* be?
> > And of course, the buxom babe with the tight shirt and shorts was just
> > an *obvious* ploy to increase sales of an otherwise poor game....
> >
> > Ah... live and learn, we all live and learn. :) 
> >
> > -- G
> >
>
> That last comment Gary reminds me of I read a sign on the wall in a
> restaurant (in Ypsilanti, MI in 1989) which read: "Learn from other's
> mistakes, for you could not live long enough to make them all yourself."
> lol And for what it's worth, I know *I* couldn't have made a game (for one
> platform, let alone multiple!) like TR nor any other, so I respected them
> for their efforts initially.
>
> I've worked behind the scenes for enough companies to know how politics and
> the bottom line can (and continue to) ruin great ideas and functionally
> enjoyable products.
>
> Also, I *think* we'd have been willing to wait (and perhaps have
> pre-ordered/paid) for TRAoD if we'd have been clued in (we the public that
> is) that they needed a lot more time to honor their fans and newbies alike
> to give us a [nearly] patch free game. YMMV

On that point... Eidos kept saying AoD would come out at some certain
time, then they'd change it. That stirred up the fans which only
added to the pressure to get the thing out the door. Also, it's
important for upper management to be wise enough to let their
technical folks do the job they were hired to do, and let *them*
say when it's ready. You don't force something out the door unless
the "yet to be done" items are truly petty. I hope Eidos learned
something and will give Crystal the time and leeway they need to
make a quality game. If not... well, the next could be the last.

-- G

> --
> Ms T
> If it's true that life is what you make of it,
> I need a better recipe...,
>
> >>
> >> I too started to take notice of all the Lara Croft/Tomb Raiding type
> >> media programs after I started playing TR. However, right or wrong, I
> >> just attributed that to the same type of thing happens when one buys a
> >> new car. Suddenly, it seems like there are twice as many cars of that
> >> same model, but in reality, it's just one's focus has been altered to
> >> notice. <shrug>
> >>
> >> <tosses coins in bag and passes on>
> >>
> >> Ms T
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 2:05:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell"
snip
> On that point... Eidos kept saying AoD would come out at some certain
> time, then they'd change it. That stirred up the fans which only
> added to the pressure to get the thing out the door. Also, it's
> important for upper management to be wise enough to let their
> technical folks do the job they were hired to do, and let *them*
> say when it's ready. You don't force something out the door unless
> the "yet to be done" items are truly petty. I hope Eidos learned
> something and will give Crystal the time and leeway they need to
> make a quality game. If not... well, the next could be the last.
>
> -- G

Or this next could be Duke Nukem Forever :( 
McG.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 2:37:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

McGrandpa wrote:
>
> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:42205814.F840C242@ix.nospam.netcom.com
> > Pistol Whipped wrote:
[snip to save scrolling]

> >> What I do not want to do is hand a word to a mind, just beginning to
> >> read, that has little comprehension of the harm it can do to others.
> >
> > But you *are*. That's part of my point. The asterisk *doesn't* make
> > the word(s) go away. In fact, perhaps even worse--you're *adding* a
> > kind of emphasis to those words by drawing attention to them.
> >
> >> And, unfortunately, the harm it can do to them from the very people
> >> who seek to eliminate these words from the vocabulary. The hate in
> >> non-curse words uttered by these people is very often much deeper
> >> than any hate I can even comprehend. It is the hate wrongly
> >> generated by these words which I wish to keep from inflicting on an
> >> innocent mind. There is far too much read into these words (by an
> >> unfortunate few), to use them arbitrarily.
> >>
> >> Then why use them?
> >>
> >> (a) My intended audience knows in what spirit it is said.
> >> (b) Why use a big word when a diminutive one will do?
> >
> > That's not much of an excuse--especially coming from someone who
> > just professed such strong negative feelings on the subject. In
> > fact, it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. I would think
> > you'd argue against using those words at all--asterisk or not.
> >
> > -- G
>
> Excuse me, may I intrude?

Absolutely, the more the merrier. <steps aside> :) 

> Thank you :)  Perhaps he's trying to say
> it's ok to "curse in pretense"? I can also liken it to "guarded
> speak", such as cupping ones hand over side of mouth then speak in loud
> whisper. It's an interesting discussion. Doesn't the use of words in
> this way have a little feel of sarcasm, always?
> McG.

Sarcasm? I don't think so... I never got that impression.

When you block out a letter of a word, it seems pretty clear to
me you're *pretending* that you didn't say what you clearly just
said. I haven't got the vocabulary that LJ has, maybe he could
apply a better word, but 'pretense' comes pretty close.

I have an almost visceral negative reaction to censorship anyway,
perhaps that's part of my objection to the practice.

-- G
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 3:25:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

Pistol Whipped wrote:
>
> In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
> about 02/26/2005 06:02 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> > Pistol Whipped wrote:
> >
>
> I will not "argue" with you.

OK, fine. No one's twisting your arm.

> You are bypassing everything I said in
> order to maintain your own argument. This is not point/counter point.
> This is you, ignoring what I actually said, and persisting in a dream
> state where what you say must be 100% correct.

Interesting. I was just thinking the same thing about you.

[snip]
> Your
> opinion sounds like pure tripe to me, because you do not even address
> the argument I was making.

Well, that just simply isn't true! I was doing my best to address
or counter the points you made--and to explain mine.

However, no matter... If you're going to get huffy on me, then
obviously this thread should be dropped.

Done.

-- G
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 3:29:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

"Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4221B1EF.12F99D0E@ix.nospam.netcom.com
> McGrandpa wrote:
>>
>> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:42205814.F840C242@ix.nospam.netcom.com
>>> Pistol Whipped wrote:
> [snip to save scrolling]
>
>>>> What I do not want to do is hand a word to a mind, just beginning
>>>> to read, that has little comprehension of the harm it can do to
>>>> others.
>>>
>>> But you *are*. That's part of my point. The asterisk *doesn't*
>>> make the word(s) go away. In fact, perhaps even worse--you're
>>> *adding* a kind of emphasis to those words by drawing attention to
>>> them.
>>>
>>>> And, unfortunately, the harm it can do to them from the very people
>>>> who seek to eliminate these words from the vocabulary. The hate in
>>>> non-curse words uttered by these people is very often much deeper
>>>> than any hate I can even comprehend. It is the hate wrongly
>>>> generated by these words which I wish to keep from inflicting on an
>>>> innocent mind. There is far too much read into these words (by an
>>>> unfortunate few), to use them arbitrarily.
>>>>
>>>> Then why use them?
>>>>
>>>> (a) My intended audience knows in what spirit it is said.
>>>> (b) Why use a big word when a diminutive one will do?
>>>
>>> That's not much of an excuse--especially coming from someone who
>>> just professed such strong negative feelings on the subject. In
>>> fact, it sounds like you're contradicting yourself. I would think
>>> you'd argue against using those words at all--asterisk or not.
>>>
>>> -- G
>>
>> Excuse me, may I intrude?
>
> Absolutely, the more the merrier. <steps aside> :) 
>
>> Thank you :)  Perhaps he's trying to say
>> it's ok to "curse in pretense"? I can also liken it to "guarded
>> speak", such as cupping ones hand over side of mouth then speak in
>> loud whisper. It's an interesting discussion. Doesn't the use of
>> words in this way have a little feel of sarcasm, always?
>> McG.
>
> Sarcasm? I don't think so... I never got that impression.
>
> When you block out a letter of a word, it seems pretty clear to
> me you're *pretending* that you didn't say what you clearly just
> said. I haven't got the vocabulary that LJ has, maybe he could
> apply a better word, but 'pretense' comes pretty close.
>
> I have an almost visceral negative reaction to censorship anyway,
> perhaps that's part of my objection to the practice.
>
> -- G

It's perfectly ok to feel what you do about it. It's an interesting
thing to consider, especially since a lot of people DO this (including
me) at times. The reason we do it is what we feel we (or someone else)
will get from the doing. Ever since old early BBS days with the
message bases, I've noted the struggle to accurately express ones self
in plain text. How the text is structured, language used (including
any means of emphasis), becomes critical to this end. I tend to get
carried away at times with all manner of emphasis. LJ is probably one
of the best I've ever seen at getting something across with language
alone, using 'normal' punctuation and very rarely some secondary form of
emphasis. Like itallics or bold. When he does emphasize, its with
great care. To me that's one of the marks of a very good writer. But,
out here in Usenetland, not so many of us are very good writers at all.
PW is good, and he's also a considerate writer. You are more measured a
writer. Methinks that our writing habits allow others to percieve
'personality' in our text.
Yet this whole text missed the point. My point is actually that you
recieved something different from some text than what was intended by
the writer of it. And this happens all the time, in Usenet :) 
McG.
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 9:50:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

McGrandpa wrote:
>
> "Gary Mitchell" <wb6yru@ix.nospam.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:4221B1EF.12F99D0E@ix.nospam.netcom.com
[snip]

> > When you block out a letter of a word, it seems pretty clear to
> > me you're *pretending* that you didn't say what you clearly just
> > said. I haven't got the vocabulary that LJ has, maybe he could
> > apply a better word, but 'pretense' comes pretty close.
> >
> > I have an almost visceral negative reaction to censorship anyway,
> > perhaps that's part of my objection to the practice.
> >
> > -- G
>
> It's perfectly ok to feel what you do about it. It's an interesting
> thing to consider, especially since a lot of people DO this (including
> me) at times. The reason we do it is what we feel we (or someone else)
> will get from the doing. Ever since old early BBS days with the
> message bases, I've noted the struggle to accurately express ones self
> in plain text. How the text is structured, language used (including
> any means of emphasis), becomes critical to this end. I tend to get
> carried away at times with all manner of emphasis. LJ is probably one
> of the best I've ever seen at getting something across with language
> alone, using 'normal' punctuation and very rarely some secondary form of
> emphasis. Like itallics or bold. When he does emphasize, its with
> great care. To me that's one of the marks of a very good writer. But,
> out here in Usenetland, not so many of us are very good writers at all.
> PW is good, and he's also a considerate writer. You are more measured a
> writer. Methinks that our writing habits allow others to percieve
> 'personality' in our text.

Oh, sure. All we have here is the text. It can be difficult to
tell whether someone is leaning forward and glaring at the screen,
or sitting back and writing calmly. Sometimes I have to explain what
I just wrote. I see that as a failure to communicate. Either I
didn't express myself very well or the other person is reading way
too much between the lines... or both. I think a good rule of thumb
is that if something can be taken different ways, assume they meant
it the best way, unless you know for sure otherwise.

-- G

> Yet this whole text missed the point. My point is actually that you
> recieved something different from some text than what was intended by
> the writer of it. And this happens all the time, in Usenet :) 
> McG.
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 11:42:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.tombraider (More info?)

In the dead of night, a faint whisper from Gary Mitchell was heard, at
about 02/27/2005 07:25 AM, and I could have sworn it said ...
> Pistol Whipped wrote:


> However, no matter... If you're going to get huffy on me, then
> obviously this thread should be dropped.
>
> Done.
>
> -- G

It never should have been started.

---
PW
!