Valygar vs. Yoshimo vs. Haer'Dalis

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Ok, I realize that once I get Imoen back, she and Yoshimo will be kind
of redundant (since I'm using him a lot for thief skills, and he isn't
the best fighter out there). So if I replace him, it's between these
other two. I figure either is better since they are rangers and can use
a lot of weapons and armor that Yoshimo can't. My main choice is
Valygar, since his stats seem to be a little better where it counts
(STR/DEX, even CON) than Haer'Dalis. Any suggestions between these three?

 

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John Salerno wrote:

> Ok, I realize that once I get Imoen back, she and Yoshimo will be kind
> of redundant (since I'm using him a lot for thief skills, and he isn't
> the best fighter out there). So if I replace him, it's between these
> other two. I figure either is better since they are rangers

Haer'Dalis is a bard, not a ranger.

> and can use
> a lot of weapons and armor that Yoshimo can't. My main choice is
> Valygar, since his stats seem to be a little better where it counts
> (STR/DEX, even CON) than Haer'Dalis. Any suggestions between these three?

You should definitely keep Yoshimo until you get Imoen back.
Afterward...Valygar is a warrior. Haer'Dalis is kind of half a warrior
and half a spellcaster, who can identify things (but you have Identify
spells for that, right?) and pick pockets (but if you're a group of good
guys you don't need or want that, right?). And Valygar is very much
good, while Haer'Dalis is dark side of neutral.

 

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Kish wrote:

> John Salerno wrote:
>
>> But at least he can still use a lot of weapons, and yeah, it's nice
>> that he's 'good.' And aside from the fact that Haer'Dalis can wear
>> chain mail, I think Valygar is the same and better.
>
>
> Valygar comes with a suit of armor which is, imho, as good as any armor
> in the game.

Cool. Decision is pretty much made, I hope. Just one question: I took
the quest to find him and bring him back to the Cowled Wizards. I don't
really plan to, but that won't prevent him from joining, will it?

 

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Jonathan Ellis wrote:

> By the time you get to chapter 6, you really WILL be too far
> ahead of anyone else in XP to consider taking them into your party (if
> there's only room for the six of you, and you are yourself one of
> them. You'll still have Minsc, you'll still have Jaheira, you'll still
> have Anomen and Keldorn, and Imoen too, and they will have gained
> great gobs of experience even after rescuing Imoen - there's a lot of
> it in chapters 4 and 5, which take place in areas from which the
> mainland is not reachable. You could easily be over a million XP ahead
> of anyone you leave behind by the time you come back in chapter 6.

Hmm. I was thinking about getting Imoen, and then getting Valygar and
replacing Yoshimo. Not a good idea? I guess the NPCs' levels aren't
calculated based on your current party level?

Right now my party is this: me, Jaheira, Minsc, Yoshimo, Anomen, Nalia.
I was going to replace Nalia with Keldorn, but then I figure I might as
well stick with her since I was going to replace that spot anyway once I
get Imoen back. Then, after I get Imoen, I was going to replace Yoshimo
with Valygar, but it sounds like that might be too late to get him.
Should I get him now and replace Nalia with him? Then do his quest, or
go for Imoen? (I've pretty much ruled out Keldorn, because I basically
wanted someone with good STR, which Valygar has, but he also has DEX for
ranged as well.)

 

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Kish wrote:

> Haer'Dalis is a bard, not a ranger.

Oops, I knew that! Luckily bards still use most of what rangers can.

> You should definitely keep Yoshimo until you get Imoen back.
> Afterward...Valygar is a warrior. Haer'Dalis is kind of half a warrior
> and half a spellcaster, who can identify things (but you have Identify
> spells for that, right?) and pick pockets (but if you're a group of good
> guys you don't need or want that, right?). And Valygar is very much
> good, while Haer'Dalis is dark side of neutral.

Yeah, I'm definitely keeping Yoshimo for now, because I need his
abilities. After that, Imoen is fine for traps and locks. Another thing
I just realized is that as a stalker, Valygar can't wear more than
studded leather! Darn! (Then again neither can Yoshimo)

But at least he can still use a lot of weapons, and yeah, it's nice that
he's 'good.' And aside from the fact that Haer'Dalis can wear chain
mail, I think Valygar is the same and better.

 

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Also, is it possible to do any of the NPC quests without having them
join your party? For example, if I organized my party the way I want it
(except for Imoen), then go find Keldorn, can I do his quest without him
joining?

Relatedly, are there any NPCs who won't rejoin you if you kick them out
temporarily to do another NPC's quest?




John Salerno wrote:

> Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>
>> By the time you get to chapter 6, you really WILL be too far
>> ahead of anyone else in XP to consider taking them into your party (if
>> there's only room for the six of you, and you are yourself one of
>> them. You'll still have Minsc, you'll still have Jaheira, you'll still
>> have Anomen and Keldorn, and Imoen too, and they will have gained
>> great gobs of experience even after rescuing Imoen - there's a lot of
>> it in chapters 4 and 5, which take place in areas from which the
>> mainland is not reachable. You could easily be over a million XP ahead
>> of anyone you leave behind by the time you come back in chapter 6.
>
>
> Hmm. I was thinking about getting Imoen, and then getting Valygar and
> replacing Yoshimo. Not a good idea? I guess the NPCs' levels aren't
> calculated based on your current party level?
>
> Right now my party is this: me, Jaheira, Minsc, Yoshimo, Anomen, Nalia.
> I was going to replace Nalia with Keldorn, but then I figure I might as
> well stick with her since I was going to replace that spot anyway once I
> get Imoen back. Then, after I get Imoen, I was going to replace Yoshimo
> with Valygar, but it sounds like that might be too late to get him.
> Should I get him now and replace Nalia with him? Then do his quest, or
> go for Imoen? (I've pretty much ruled out Keldorn, because I basically
> wanted someone with good STR, which Valygar has, but he also has DEX for
> ranged as well.)

 

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John Salerno wrote:

> But at least he can still use a lot of weapons, and yeah, it's nice that
> he's 'good.' And aside from the fact that Haer'Dalis can wear chain
> mail, I think Valygar is the same and better.

Valygar comes with a suit of armor which is, imho, as good as any armor
in the game.

 

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"John Salerno" <johnjsalNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:407f1107$0$16448$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
> Kish wrote:
>
> > Haer'Dalis is a bard, not a ranger.
>
> Oops, I knew that! Luckily bards still use most of what rangers
can.
>
> > You should definitely keep Yoshimo until you get Imoen back.
> > Afterward...Valygar is a warrior. Haer'Dalis is kind of half a
warrior
> > and half a spellcaster, who can identify things (but you have
Identify
> > spells for that, right?) and pick pockets (but if you're a group
of good
> > guys you don't need or want that, right?). And Valygar is very
much
> > good, while Haer'Dalis is dark side of neutral.
>
> Yeah, I'm definitely keeping Yoshimo for now, because I need his
> abilities. After that, Imoen is fine for traps and locks. Another
thing
> I just realized is that as a stalker, Valygar can't wear more than
> studded leather! Darn! (Then again neither can Yoshimo)
>
> But at least he can still use a lot of weapons, and yeah, it's nice
that
> he's 'good.' And aside from the fact that Haer'Dalis can wear chain
> mail, I think Valygar is the same and better.

- Haer'Dalis can cast wizard spells, including Stoneskin (and fight
with it on, when he is hit he takes no damage until the spell wears
off. Read the spell description and get your mages using it.)
- Valygar can backstab, and is far better in a straight fight. But,
without Stoneskin, he'll be hit more often, but then he has more hit
points anyway.
- Both can dual-wield - although Valygar gets two free points in it,
and can use weapon specialisation as well. (Haer'Dalis has a weapon
specialisation in short swords - illegal by normal bard rules, but
it's one of his special powers.)
- Haer'Dalis can *sing* - and his song gives power to the party.
Especially when he gets past 3 million XP and you choose the Enhanced
Bardsong special ability. Also he can cast spells while wearing
armour, as long as it's Elven chainmail.
- Valygar, when he gets past 3 million XP, can use the special
abilities of Greater Whirlwind.

Valygar is very much a "fire and forget" character - he does a few
things, but he does them very well indeed. Haer'Dalis does these
things less well but he does many more things as well - he's a support
character, not a leader. Not a primary fighter or a primary mage, but
an excellent support as either or both, and can sing and pick pockets
too.

They really are two different characters all around...

But you said you're not going to have room for either of them in
your party - with Minsc, Jaheira, Yoshimo, Anomen and Keldorn plus
yourself right now. (And getting Imoen in chapter 4, replacing
Yoshimo - you'll find out *just* why. Telling you would be a BIG BIG
BIG BIG BIG SPOILER. But, as we're all telling you, take him, at least
on your first playthrough ;-)

By the time you get to chapter 6, you really WILL be too far
ahead of anyone else in XP to consider taking them into your party (if
there's only room for the six of you, and you are yourself one of
them. You'll still have Minsc, you'll still have Jaheira, you'll still
have Anomen and Keldorn, and Imoen too, and they will have gained
great gobs of experience even after rescuing Imoen - there's a lot of
it in chapters 4 and 5, which take place in areas from which the
mainland is not reachable. You could easily be over a million XP ahead
of anyone you leave behind by the time you come back in chapter 6.

Jonathan.

 

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"John Salerno" <johnjsalNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:407f1295$0$16481$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
> Kish wrote:
>
> > John Salerno wrote:
> >
> >> But at least he can still use a lot of weapons, and yeah, it's
nice
> >> that he's 'good.' And aside from the fact that Haer'Dalis can
wear
> >> chain mail, I think Valygar is the same and better.
> >
> >
> > Valygar comes with a suit of armor which is, imho, as good as any
armor
> > in the game.
>
> Cool. Decision is pretty much made, I hope. Just one question: I
took
> the quest to find him and bring him back to the Cowled Wizards. I
don't
> really plan to, but that won't prevent him from joining, will it?

No. Don't hand him over to the Cowlies - WHATEVER you do. It's not as
if you're even friends with them right now.

If he comes into your party, you'll have to (a) do it pretty soon,
like now, and (b) drop one of your existing characters for it - most
likely either Minsc or Keldorn. Minsc is the straightest swap (ranger
for ranger), and he has no side-quests associated with him so you
can't miss anything by dropping him. But what Minsc has going for him
are (1) Boo, and (2) some of the funniest lines of dialogue in the
entire game.

What I'd do, if I was you, would be to either (1) find Valygar, swap
him in for Minsc NOW and do his quest: or (2) bring him back, leave
him outside the entrance to his own major quest, do it with your
original party, then let him into your party to talk to him afterwards
and then revert back to your original party again.

Your choice. ;-)

Jonathan.

 

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John Salerno wrote:

> Hmm. I was thinking about getting Imoen, and then getting Valygar and
> replacing Yoshimo. Not a good idea? I guess the NPCs' levels aren't
> calculated based on your current party level?

They are, up to a limit. However, I would advise you to get everyone in
your final party but Imoen before you go after her, and have her replace
Yoshimo.

 

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Kish wrote:

> They are, up to a limit. However, I would advise you to get everyone in
> your final party but Imoen before you go after her, and have her replace
> Yoshimo.

Yeah, that's sort of become my plan. Here's my itinerary:

1. Find Valygar and replace Nalia with him. (I guess I'll have to do his
quest too, since it's probably time-based like some other NPC quests.)
2. Speak with Gaelen Bayle.
3. Do the quest for Xzar (as per Jonathan's advice).
4. Find Imoen.

Or should I switch 2 and 3? I'm guessing 3 won't take too long, and once
I do 2, it might get me going on something and I won't have time for 3.

 

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I guess you can add to that speaking with Renal Bloodscalp, since
Yoshimo is in my party right now. I can do that quest real quick, I
suppose, but after I get Valygar, of course.

John Salerno wrote:

> Kish wrote:
>
>> They are, up to a limit. However, I would advise you to get everyone
>> in your final party but Imoen before you go after her, and have her
>> replace Yoshimo.
>
>
> Yeah, that's sort of become my plan. Here's my itinerary:
>
> 1. Find Valygar and replace Nalia with him. (I guess I'll have to do his
> quest too, since it's probably time-based like some other NPC quests.)
> 2. Speak with Gaelen Bayle.
> 3. Do the quest for Xzar (as per Jonathan's advice).
> 4. Find Imoen.
>
> Or should I switch 2 and 3? I'm guessing 3 won't take too long, and once
> I do 2, it might get me going on something and I won't have time for 3.

 

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John Salerno wrote:

> Also, is it possible to do any of the NPC quests without having them
> join your party?

No. But don't mistake the NPC's quest for the quest you find the NPC
on. You can seek out the Unseeing Eye without Keldorn; you just can't
do /Keldorn's/ quest without Keldorn.

 

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Another quickie: I just got Valygar (who seems really cool, by the way)
and now I'm wondering if it's possible for me to get the license to use
magic in Athkatla, with him in my party. If I walk into the building,
won't that be treated like I am turning him in?

Or can I just take him out of my group, get the license, then get him back?

John Salerno wrote:

> Ok, I realize that once I get Imoen back, she and Yoshimo will be kind
> of redundant (since I'm using him a lot for thief skills, and he isn't
> the best fighter out there). So if I replace him, it's between these
> other two. I figure either is better since they are rangers and can use
> a lot of weapons and armor that Yoshimo can't. My main choice is
> Valygar, since his stats seem to be a little better where it counts
> (STR/DEX, even CON) than Haer'Dalis. Any suggestions between these three?

 

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John Salerno wrote:

> Kish wrote:
>
>> They are, up to a limit. However, I would advise you to get everyone
>> in your final party but Imoen before you go after her, and have her
>> replace Yoshimo.
>
>
> Yeah, that's sort of become my plan. Here's my itinerary:
>
> 1. Find Valygar and replace Nalia with him. (I guess I'll have to do his
> quest too, since it's probably time-based like some other NPC quests.)

No, he doesn't mind waiting.

> 2. Speak with Gaelen Bayle.
> 3. Do the quest for Xzar (as per Jonathan's advice).
> 4. Find Imoen.
>
> Or should I switch 2 and 3? I'm guessing 3 won't take too long, and once
> I do 2, it might get me going on something and I won't have time for 3.

The simplest answer, without spoilers, is: Switch 2 and 3, yes. Once
you speak to Gaelen Bayle, do exactly what he says until you see Imoen
again.

 

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Kish wrote:

> I'd suggest leaving it for when you have Imoen. You don't need Yoshimo
> for it, and Renal won't get upset over the delay.

> No, [Valygar] doesn't mind waiting.

> The simplest answer, without spoilers, is: Switch 2 and 3, yes. Once
> you speak to Gaelen Bayle, do exactly what he says until you see Imoen
> again.

All three of those comments are exactly what I wanted to hear!

 

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John Salerno wrote:

> I guess you can add to that speaking with Renal Bloodscalp, since
> Yoshimo is in my party right now. I can do that quest real quick, I
> suppose, but after I get Valygar, of course.

I'd suggest leaving it for when you have Imoen. You don't need Yoshimo
for it, and Renal won't get upset over the delay.

 

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John Salerno wrote:

> Another quickie: I just got Valygar (who seems really cool, by the way)
> and now I'm wondering if it's possible for me to get the license to use
> magic in Athkatla, with him in my party. If I walk into the building,
> won't that be treated like I am turning him in?

He'll be nervous, but as long as you don't tell Tolgerias that you want
to hand him over, it will be okay. He hasn't committed a crime, after
all; you were sent after him not as legitimate authorities but as a
group of hired thugs.

 

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John Salerno <johnjsalNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<407f1295$0$16481$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>...
> Kish wrote:
>
> > John Salerno wrote:
> >
> >> But at least he can still use a lot of weapons, and yeah, it's nice
> >> that he's 'good.' And aside from the fact that Haer'Dalis can wear
> >> chain mail, I think Valygar is the same and better.
> >
> >
> > Valygar comes with a suit of armor which is, imho, as good as any armor
> > in the game.
>
> Cool. Decision is pretty much made, I hope. Just one question: I took
> the quest to find him and bring him back to the Cowled Wizards. I don't
> really plan to, but that won't prevent him from joining, will it?

I ended up giving him the black dragonscale armor.

 

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"John Salerno" <johnjsalNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:407f2a43$0$16460$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
> Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>
> > By the time you get to chapter 6, you really WILL be too far
> > ahead of anyone else in XP to consider taking them into your party
(if
> > there's only room for the six of you, and you are yourself one of
> > them. You'll still have Minsc, you'll still have Jaheira, you'll
still
> > have Anomen and Keldorn, and Imoen too, and they will have gained
> > great gobs of experience even after rescuing Imoen - there's a lot
of
> > it in chapters 4 and 5, which take place in areas from which the
> > mainland is not reachable. You could easily be over a million XP
ahead
> > of anyone you leave behind by the time you come back in chapter 6.
>
> Hmm. I was thinking about getting Imoen, and then getting Valygar
and
> replacing Yoshimo. Not a good idea? I guess the NPCs' levels aren't
> calculated based on your current party level?
>
> Right now my party is this: me, Jaheira, Minsc, Yoshimo, Anomen,
Nalia.
> I was going to replace Nalia with Keldorn, but then I figure I might
as
> well stick with her since I was going to replace that spot anyway
once I
> get Imoen back. Then, after I get Imoen, I was going to replace
Yoshimo
> with Valygar, but it sounds like that might be too late to get him.
> Should I get him now and replace Nalia with him? Then do his quest,
or
> go for Imoen? (I've pretty much ruled out Keldorn, because I
basically
> wanted someone with good STR, which Valygar has, but he also has DEX
for
> ranged as well.)

I'd replace Nalia with Valygar right now. Remember: Imoen is the
replacement for Yoshimo as a *thief* - hang on to that thought above
all else. You will have Yoshimo until you have Imoen.

Keeping Nalia, Keldorn, Valygar or Haer'Dalis is a separate issue
entirely, but I'd recommend keeping Keldorn or Valygar, and making
that decision *right now*. Nalia duplicates what you yourself do (i.e.
single-class magery): she also duplicates what Imoen does (i.e.
single-class magery, as she is ONLY advancing as a mage), and isn't as
good as Imoen at what Imoen *also* does (i.e. thievery, which both
have stopped advancing in, but Nalia has stopped at a lower level).

You will not be in a position to replace any NPC with any other NPC in
the whole of the *long* chapters 4 and 5 of the game, with the
exception of getting Imoen back and replacing one other party member.
And you haven't yet found out why we're all advising you to take
Yoshimo along as the party member you're going to lose... but, I'll
just tell you it's part of the game plot. If he wasn't there, you'd
either have to drop somebody else - permanently leaving them in a bit
of a nightmarish place, where Imoen was herself captive, and to which
you can never return - or leave Imoen to make her own way out (she can
in fact do this, but by the time you catch up with her again it'll be
chapter 6, you'll be back at the Copper Coronet, and she will be
DEFINITELY too far behind you in XP by then.)

Jonathan.

 

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> 1. Find Valygar and replace Nalia with him. (I guess I'll have to do his
> quest too, since it's probably time-based like some other NPC quests.)
> 2. Speak with Gaelen Bayle.
> 3. Do the quest for Xzar (as per Jonathan's advice).
> 4. Find Imoen.

Throwing out Nalia in favor of Valygar is a bad, bad idea. Nalia is the best
mage around, period. And you already have a meelee-heavy party (Minsc,
Jaheira, Anomen). With Imoen as your only mage you'll run into trouble
sooner or later. In some fights *two* fireballs in the first round of battle
are invaluable

 

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"Dirk Dreidoppel" <dirk.dreidoppel@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:c5o5p8$n6o$06$1@news.t-online.com...
> > 1. Find Valygar and replace Nalia with him. (I guess I'll have to
do his
> > quest too, since it's probably time-based like some other NPC
quests.)
> > 2. Speak with Gaelen Bayle.
> > 3. Do the quest for Xzar (as per Jonathan's advice).
> > 4. Find Imoen.
>
> Throwing out Nalia in favor of Valygar is a bad, bad idea. Nalia is
the best
> mage around, period.

I disagree. Imoen is better - she is EXACTLY as good a mage as Nalia,
no better, no worse, and she has the extra three levels of thief to
back it up - three levels which DO NOT set her back in any way, and DO
NOT prevent her reaching exactly the same absolute level limit as
Nalia.

Edwin can cast more spells per day but is short on defence (other than
Stoneskin) and in any case is evil.

> And you already have a meelee-heavy party (Minsc,
> Jaheira, Anomen). With Imoen as your only mage you'll run into
trouble
> sooner or later. In some fights *two* fireballs in the first round
of battle
> are invaluable

The main character is himself a mage. With himself, Imoen *and* Nalia,
that will be three pure mages, and that makes for a party with too
many mages for a first run-through.

Jonathan.

 

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> > 1. Find Valygar and replace Nalia with him. (I guess I'll have to do his
> > quest too, since it's probably time-based like some other NPC quests.)
> > 2. Speak with Gaelen Bayle.
> > 3. Do the quest for Xzar (as per Jonathan's advice).
> > 4. Find Imoen.
>
> Throwing out Nalia in favor of Valygar is a bad, bad idea. Nalia is the
best
> mage around, period. And you already have a meelee-heavy party (Minsc,
> Jaheira, Anomen). With Imoen as your only mage you'll run into trouble
> sooner or later. In some fights *two* fireballs in the first round of
battle
> are invaluable

Meh, forget it...
I forgot that you are a mage yourself....

 

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Kish wrote:

> John Salerno wrote:
>
>> Another quickie: I just got Valygar (who seems really cool, by the
>> way) and now I'm wondering if it's possible for me to get the license
>> to use magic in Athkatla, with him in my party. If I walk into the
>> building, won't that be treated like I am turning him in?
>
>
> He'll be nervous, but as long as you don't tell Tolgerias that you want
> to hand him over, it will be okay. He hasn't committed a crime, after
> all; you were sent after him not as legitimate authorities but as a
> group of hired thugs.

Ok. And I guess I could just leave everyone outside and go in by myself
to get the license. I didn't think of that.

 

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Jonathan Ellis wrote:

> I'd replace Nalia with Valygar right now. Remember: Imoen is the
> replacement for Yoshimo as a *thief* - hang on to that thought above
> all else. You will have Yoshimo until you have Imoen.

Yeah, that's my plan. I think I'm set now. I have Jaheira, Minsc,
Anomen, Valygar, and Yoshimo, and when I get Imoen I will take out
Yoshimo, since they are mostly redundant (at least for why I'm using him).