Cheats in UT2004

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
85 answers Last reply
More about cheats ut2004
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    i won't buy ut2k4 after i have read and heard so many stories of cheating on
    ut2k3. i find it extremely diffucult to play against cheaters (obviously)
    and it has taken away my enjoyment of the game.

    i read some too the all the 2003 cheats work on 2004.

    jay cee


    "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org> wrote in message
    news:%Ck1d.1306224$y4.229403@news.easynews.com...
    > Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard
    some
    > guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
    > of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
    > seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't
    end
    > up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
    >
    >
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    I'd say I met about 8 AIM botter cheaters since I'be been playing online
    (have been since the UT2004 demo came out)

    As long as the server runs some kinda of anti-cheat things like AntiTCC I
    haven't had much problems with them.


    "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org> wrote in message
    news:%Ck1d.1306224$y4.229403@news.easynews.com...
    > Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard
    > some
    > guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
    > of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
    > seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't
    > end
    > up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
    >
    >
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:26:11 -0230, "Jay Cee" <no@spam.please> wrote:

    >i won't buy ut2k4 after i have read and heard so many stories of cheating on
    >ut2k3. i find it extremely diffucult to play against cheaters (obviously)
    >and it has taken away my enjoyment of the game.
    I've played quite a bit, and i've seen little of what I would say is
    definately a cheat. I think there's less of it happening than is
    generally thought. Heck, I have been accused of cheating, and I'm not
    nearly as good as most. Actually I can be pretty good, but only for
    20-30 minutes, then the eyes get tired, ect. My kid plays and gets
    accused of cheating quite regularly, but he's just better than many
    others, and, being young, has the reflex advantage over most people.
    I just think that UT, being basically a frag-fest, as opposed to
    requiring any tactics or teamwork (when youre playing DM), makes it
    easy for people to cry cheat. After all, if there's 20 people playing,
    every person has 19 enemies. If one person starts crying cheat, then
    it's easy for others to jump on the bandwagon. I laugh when he wins by
    1 or 2 and people cry cheat, it just sounds so stupid.
    One thing that often gets the biggest gripes, is that when he has the
    rocket launcher, he always fires a shot down the hallway he's running.
    This way, when he turns a corner, only to be face-to-face with another
    player, he's not killing himself because the range is too close. Many
    people scream "wallhack", but if you watch him, he does it EVERY time
    he runs down a hall, and most of the time nobody is there so it is a
    waste of ammo. Same with the shock combo. Some people call this
    spamming, I call it suppresive fire.
    >
    >i read some too the all the 2003 cheats work on 2004.
    >
    >jay cee
    >

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You should start drinking prune juice and KY jelly cocktails right now,
    that will make things a lot smoother.
    -Felatio Love
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.games.unreal.tournament.]
    Jay Cee enlightened us with:
    > i won't buy ut2k4 after i have read and heard so many stories of
    > cheating on ut2k3. i find it extremely diffucult to play against
    > cheaters (obviously) and it has taken away my enjoyment of the game.

    Personally, I never met any cheaters online. I think it depends on
    your geographical location.

    MeltDown
    --
    !For all your UT99/2k3/2k4 questions visit UnrealTower's FAQ section:
    ! http://www.unrealtower.org/faq
    !Home of the FAQs for agut and agut2003.
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    Hi,
    about which version u are talking about? I believe UTclassic? In 2k4 I yet
    found no cheats except that some ppl use key-macros, input-hardware that is
    programmable, but thats like saying "u have a ping of 30 and I have a ping
    of 200, so you cheat".
    Of course, someone like me who spents a bit more money to get dsl-fastpath
    has an advantage than somebody who only has a modem, but I wont call this
    cheating.

    cya
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    yes very corncerned with manta cheats...
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    MeltDown wrote:
    > Personally, I never met any cheaters online. I think it depends on
    > your geographical location.

    Interesting opinion. So in what particular area there is lots of
    cheaters? Some country perhaps? That could be banned easily.

    I think it depends on age more than location.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    Peelo enlightened us with:
    > Interesting opinion. So in what particular area there is lots of
    > cheaters? Some country perhaps? That could be banned easily.

    I can only say that in The Netherlands, I have never seen anyone
    cheat. Perhaps it's me being naive, but I think there aren't many
    cheaters here.

    MeltDown
    --
    !For all your UT99/2k3/2k4 questions visit UnrealTower's FAQ section:
    ! http://www.unrealtower.org/faq
    !Home of the FAQs for agut and agut2003.
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    > I can only say that in The Netherlands, I have never seen anyone
    > cheat. Perhaps it's me being naive, but I think there aren't many
    > cheaters here.

    It probably also helps if you stick to a certain 'niche'. I mostly play
    iBR and nwBR and these (at least in europe) seem to be cheater-free. I
    saw the model-spawn / invisiblilty thing once when playing 2k3, but
    nothing so far in 2k4.

    Guys, don't forget to drop by #agut on irc.quakenet.org!

    --
    IWIK
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    wrote:

    >Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
    >guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
    >of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
    >seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
    >up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.

    I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself. It's
    difficult to see behind you in a manta, but I ham constatnly having
    others track me as I dodge while they're moving backward, which means
    they pretty much have to be using a manta bot. You can also only move
    at descrete forward directions in a manta using either just forward or
    a combination of forward and strafe, so anyone who is managing to
    curve into you without changing the orientation of the manta itself is
    almost certainly botting. Half the time when I point out that soemone
    is botting, they admit to it, so I think those constitute reliable
    critera for detecting them.

    I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
    using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    percentage to me.

    I have found that by jumping toward the manta but to one side as it
    comes toward you that you can get it to fly by, but you still have to
    kill it because the bot will bring the manta back toward you a lot
    faster than a human could. I even had two bot users from the HK clan
    orbiting me for some five revolutions because their bots wouldn't let
    them go on and play the game.

    I've considered writting a bot to detect manta bots or at least to act
    as an aimbot specifically against those I know to be botting, but I
    haven't had the time, and I haven't seen any references to how they're
    written (I'm a programmer).

    Onslaught is a great game and I really hope Battle-Zone style games
    like it take off (I think it's the most played game of those provided
    in 2K4), but Unreal definitely has a problem with bots and hacks.

    Lars
  11. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    wrote:

    >On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
    >>guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
    >>of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
    >>seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
    >>up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
    >
    >I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself.

    I get flagged sometimes as having a speed hack detected but I most
    certainly haven't. I wouldn't want to get labeled as a cheat.


    --

    Julian Richards
    usenet "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

    Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
    with people that you would never want in your house.
  12. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    wrote:

    >On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
    >>guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
    >>of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
    >>seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
    >>up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
    >
    >I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself. It's
    >difficult to see behind you in a manta, but I ham constatnly having
    >others track me as I dodge while they're moving backward, which means
    >they pretty much have to be using a manta bot. You can also only move
    >at descrete forward directions in a manta using either just forward or
    >a combination of forward and strafe, so anyone who is managing to
    >curve into you without changing the orientation of the manta itself is
    >almost certainly botting. Half the time when I point out that soemone
    >is botting, they admit to it, so I think those constitute reliable
    >critera for detecting them.
    >
    >I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
    >using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    >percentage to me.
    >
    >I have found that by jumping toward the manta but to one side as it
    >comes toward you that you can get it to fly by, but you still have to
    >kill it because the bot will bring the manta back toward you a lot
    >faster than a human could. I even had two bot users from the HK clan
    >orbiting me for some five revolutions because their bots wouldn't let
    >them go on and play the game.
    >
    >I've considered writting a bot to detect manta bots or at least to act
    >as an aimbot specifically against those I know to be botting, but I
    >haven't had the time, and I haven't seen any references to how they're
    >written (I'm a programmer).
    >
    >Onslaught is a great game and I really hope Battle-Zone style games
    >like it take off (I think it's the most played game of those provided
    >in 2K4), but Unreal definitely has a problem with bots and hacks.
    >
    >Lars

    I don't know if this constitutes cheats, but I do notice there is a
    disparity amongst how many hits it takes to kill some people and the
    effectiveness of their weapons on others. I reallly seem to notice
    this on demo servers (I tend to jump on demo - torlan servers when I
    just want to play one game). I've also noticed that sometimes my
    manta feels "pushed" or my crosshairs feel "pushed" thus reducing my
    kill ratio. I'm not an excellent player, but I'm definately above
    average (80% of the time lead the team in ONS). I can't help but
    think when I get on a server and I can't kill anything there is
    something amok.
  13. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    wrote:

    >On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    >wrote:

    >I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
    >using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    >percentage to me.

    Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
    of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
    And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
    is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
    have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
    a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
    it.

    I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
    servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
    *know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
    sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
    (and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
    usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
    and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.

    No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
    people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
    person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
  14. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
    news:42uor0hi0umues8l4n6dgj4ajm4brge3of@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    >>wrote:
    >
    >>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
    >>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    >>percentage to me.
    >
    > Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
    > of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
    > And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
    > is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
    > have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
    > a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
    > it.
    >
    > I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
    > servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
    > *know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
    > sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
    > (and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
    > usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
    > and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
    >
    > No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
    > people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
    > person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
    >

    I'll agree with you Folk to a certain extent. It's been my experience on the
    bot chat boards and online that there is a very quick learning curve on
    using a bot. A person figures out very quickly to hotkey the bot off and on
    in order to not "stand out" but fall into the top 15-20% of the people on a
    server. Very rarely will a botter come in and just wipe the floor. More
    often they will push up to the limits of the top players on a given server
    to see what they can get away with. It's frustrating as hell to try and
    catch them because they will only infrequently use the assistance and only
    for a second or two to aid a tough shot. I'm not saying a double-jump off a
    wall while getting a double headshot kill on moving targets isn't possible,
    but you won't do that all day long no matter how good you are.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    afaic, the game is built with the ability to cheat by the software
    programmers. I bought and played unreal tournament, ut2k3, but have refused
    to buy ut2k4 due to rampant cheating.

    i have been shot and killed with the lightning gun from around a corner and
    had the guy deny he was using aimbot. gimmee a break!

    Clyde
    "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote in message
    news:6C1vd.1531$cN2.1376@fe03.lga...
    >
    > "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
    > news:42uor0hi0umues8l4n6dgj4ajm4brge3of@4ax.com...
    > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    > >>wrote:
    > >
    > >>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
    > >>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    > >>percentage to me.
    > >
    > > Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
    > > of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
    > > And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
    > > is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
    > > have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
    > > a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
    > > it.
    > >
    > > I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
    > > servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
    > > *know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
    > > sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
    > > (and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
    > > usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
    > > and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
    > >
    > > No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
    > > people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
    > > person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
    > >
    >
    > I'll agree with you Folk to a certain extent. It's been my experience on
    the
    > bot chat boards and online that there is a very quick learning curve on
    > using a bot. A person figures out very quickly to hotkey the bot off and
    on
    > in order to not "stand out" but fall into the top 15-20% of the people on
    a
    > server. Very rarely will a botter come in and just wipe the floor. More
    > often they will push up to the limits of the top players on a given server
    > to see what they can get away with. It's frustrating as hell to try and
    > catch them because they will only infrequently use the assistance and only
    > for a second or two to aid a tough shot. I'm not saying a double-jump off
    a
    > wall while getting a double headshot kill on moving targets isn't
    possible,
    > but you won't do that all day long no matter how good you are.
    >
    >
  16. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    FWIW, Helios (one of the bot programmer punks) has the audacity to put
    his bot on the net seeking Paypal payments for obtaining a copy
    thereof. I don't understand why Atari or Epic does not legally pursue
    the punk for destroying potential market as well as for copyright
    reasons (altering a program so it works in a way the author did not
    intend is a violation of international copyright law).

    Unfortunately, cheating is more rampant every day, and although I have
    seen overwhelming circumstantial evidence of cheating/botting at
    times, it is also possible that people are good players and have a
    very stable connection to the server. I'd give twice the price for my
    broadband internet connection if it were stable, but the fact is, most
    are not. Further, many server providers are trying to save a buck and
    are using the lower tier internet backbone providers, which results in
    fairly poor response from the servers (this is a US observation, it
    may be worse/better in Europe or other locales). I also see
    "throttling" with many servers, which is rapid increases/decreases in
    data delivery rates. You may have a great ping, but the server plays
    like poopoo b/c the data is not delivered smoothly with a consistent
    time delay, and the UT engine has an awful time figuring out where to
    place moving objects when it's prediction engine starts guessing
    incorrectly.

    --
    Best regards,
    Kyle
    "Clyde Anderson" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
    news:cpi9ek$6g4$1@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
    | afaic, the game is built with the ability to cheat by the software
    | programmers. I bought and played unreal tournament, ut2k3, but have
    refused
    | to buy ut2k4 due to rampant cheating.
    |
    | i have been shot and killed with the lightning gun from around a
    corner and
    | had the guy deny he was using aimbot. gimmee a break!
    |
    | Clyde
    | "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote in message
    | news:6C1vd.1531$cN2.1376@fe03.lga...
    | >
    | > "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
    | > news:42uor0hi0umues8l4n6dgj4ajm4brge3of@4ax.com...
    | > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen
    <spam@someone.else>
    | > > wrote:
    | > >
    | > >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop"
    <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    | > >>wrote:
    | > >
    | > >>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has
    someone
    | > >>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    | > >>percentage to me.
    | > >
    | > > Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is
    better
    | > > of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the
    servers.
    | > > And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that
    there
    | > > is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you
    to
    | > > have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in
    flying
    | > > a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I
    doubt
    | > > it.
    | > >
    | > > I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of
    different
    | > > servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
    | > > *know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm
    not
    | > > sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my
    team
    | > > (and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me)
    but
    | > > usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the
    players,
    | > > and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
    | > >
    | > > No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
    | > > people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think
    that
    | > > person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
    | > >
    | >
    | > I'll agree with you Folk to a certain extent. It's been my
    experience on
    | the
    | > bot chat boards and online that there is a very quick learning
    curve on
    | > using a bot. A person figures out very quickly to hotkey the bot
    off and
    | on
    | > in order to not "stand out" but fall into the top 15-20% of the
    people on
    | a
    | > server. Very rarely will a botter come in and just wipe the floor.
    More
    | > often they will push up to the limits of the top players on a
    given server
    | > to see what they can get away with. It's frustrating as hell to
    try and
    | > catch them because they will only infrequently use the assistance
    and only
    | > for a second or two to aid a tough shot. I'm not saying a
    double-jump off
    | a
    | > wall while getting a double headshot kill on moving targets isn't
    | possible,
    | > but you won't do that all day long no matter how good you are.
    | >
    | >
    |
    |
  17. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    Hi,

    Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
    interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in this
    regard.

    As a relatively good (but by no means excellent) player, I've been
    unfairly accused of cheating on two occasions. (Both times playing on
    servers with AntiTCC ;) ... I have never used an aimbot and feel that
    anyone who is caught cheating should have their accounts revoked. At
    the same time, I think that some people don't want to accept that there
    are better players than themselves, and tend to be all-too-quick to
    accuse them of cheating.

    Admittedly, I've only run across one person that I (along with everyone
    else) was _sure_ was using an aimbot -- and the player admitted to it.
    This was on a non-stats server without AntiTCC. So, I've simply stopped
    playing on servers that don't have AntiTCC (or a similar anti-cheat
    mechanism) enabled. I feel that this has greatly reduced my exposure to
    cheaters.

    Now, with respect to some of your points ...


    > 1. Literally pushed a player 6 player lengths with a manta and didn't
    > kill them. Had to jump up and pancake him. The player wasn't immune
    > either as he had shot at me already.

    I have seen this. I suspect it has to do with lag -- not with any form
    of cheating.


    > 3. Had a player jump out of a raptor, hit the ground, and I proceeded
    > to hit him with 4 plasma balls and 3 shock rifle primary hits and
    > numerous alt fire with the gun before the player killed me. I had
    > full health. Is there a cheat to decrease opponent weapon damage?

    Perhaps he had 199 health and full armor? Perhaps he picked up some
    health after he fell out of the raptor? It's pretty hard to suspect
    cheating based on something like this.


    > 4. Sometiems seems to be inconsistencies with how quickly players can
    > kill me. Like some have more weapon "power". Is there a cheat to
    > increase weapon damage?

    Hmm. Again, it's difficult to suspect cheating based on this point
    because the player(s) could easily have acquired a "double damage".


    > 5. Top Gunned an opponent in a Raptor. In less than 10 seconds, he
    > was back in the air and hit me with a missile. This happened a couple
    > times. This player was consistently in the Raptor the entire game.

    I've done this to people. It works like this: You die, you respawn at
    a node with a raptor. Conveniently, due to the 27s respawn rate (or
    whatever it is), there's a raptor waiting for you. You get in, and make
    it your mission in life to get the guy who just got you ;)

    This is by no means cheating -- the player simply rushed back to finish
    you off. I've seen this happen _all the time_. Usually, if it occurs
    on-ground, I lay down mines in anticipation of the person's return, and
    usually retreat to a manta.


    > 6. The tank. Seems that I have to be right on when attacking with
    > the tank in close quarters, whereas if I'm close, someone can just be
    > remotely close (maybe 1/4 of a turret turn) and frag me.

    Hmm. Well, I'm not a great tank-aimer myself, so I can see where you're
    coming from. But again, I think it's a matter of perception. I simply
    think that there are players who, without cheating, are: better aimers,
    better able to take advantage of splash damage (to whittle down your
    health), and who make it a purpose of getting 199 health + full armor
    before going out "to do battle".


    > 7. If I play chicken with a manta, a double jump right/left gets me
    > out of the way safely...however, against some players I still get
    > killed. Like their Manta has more killing width or something.

    Hmm. Perhaps the manta driver accurately predicted the direction that
    you were going to double-jump? This happens. Or, perhaps you're
    double-jumping too soon or too late? Personally, I find that I almost
    never get run over now...


    I think that most of your points are a bit too subjective to make a
    compelling case. However, as I have seen a player with an aimbot on a
    demo server in the past, I can understand your frustration. My solution
    to this problem has been to stick to stats-only servers that employ
    anti-cheat mechanisms, and from my own experience, this seems to reduce
    the incidence of cheating. (I also won't play on servers with mutators
    that increase firing rate, damage, etc. I like my games to be
    "pure". :)


    regards,
    Kris
  18. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    Interesting point. I don't know if these are possible cheats, but
    I've noticed some definate inconsistencies...more like what seem to be
    defensive cheats....which could be lag, cheats, or otherwise...

    1. Literally pushed a player 6 player lengths with a manta and didn't
    kill them. Had to jump up and pancake him. The player wasn't immune
    either as he had shot at me already.

    2. Seemed to feel like the manta was "pushed" off targets and my
    crosshairs would jump off targets. Went from top player to mid level
    as I couldn't hit squat.

    3. Had a player jump out of a raptor, hit the ground, and I proceeded
    to hit him with 4 plasma balls and 3 shock rifle primary hits and
    numerous alt fire with the gun before the player killed me. I had
    full health. Is there a cheat to decrease opponent weapon damage?

    4. Sometiems seems to be inconsistencies with how quickly players can
    kill me. Like some have more weapon "power". Is there a cheat to
    increase weapon damage?

    5. Top Gunned an opponent in a Raptor. In less than 10 seconds, he
    was back in the air and hit me with a missile. This happened a couple
    times. This player was consistently in the Raptor the entire game.
    Wasn't that great of a pilot either. This was on Torlan, on a full
    server. With the amount of Avrils and players, it is hard to keep a
    Raptor consistently. Would there be a spawn cheat where you'd respawn
    by an empty vehicle of choice?

    6. The tank. Seems that I have to be right on when attacking with
    the tank in close quarters, whereas if I'm close, someone can just be
    remotely close (maybe 1/4 of a turret turn) and frag me.

    7. If I play chicken with a manta, a double jump right/left gets me
    out of the way safely...however, against some players I still get
    killed. Like their Manta has more killing width or something.

    Also, as I stated earlier, I play the demo servers when I want a
    "quickie". I seem to notice these "inconsistencies" more on the demo
    servers. Would they tend to be infected more? These are all subtle
    and could be attributed to glitches in the game I guess. When I first
    started playing I'd chalk them up to experience. I take note of who
    kills me in ONS. I'm good enough now to know that a double jump left
    saves me from Player X's manta, while a double jump can never save me
    from Player Y's manta.


    On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:57:04 -0500, "Kylesb" <me@privacy.net> wrote:

    >FWIW, Helios (one of the bot programmer punks) has the audacity to put
    >his bot on the net seeking Paypal payments for obtaining a copy
    >thereof. I don't understand why Atari or Epic does not legally pursue
    >the punk for destroying potential market as well as for copyright
    >reasons (altering a program so it works in a way the author did not
    >intend is a violation of international copyright law).
    >
    >Unfortunately, cheating is more rampant every day, and although I have
    >seen overwhelming circumstantial evidence of cheating/botting at
    >times, it is also possible that people are good players and have a
    >very stable connection to the server. I'd give twice the price for my
    >broadband internet connection if it were stable, but the fact is, most
    >are not. Further, many server providers are trying to save a buck and
    >are using the lower tier internet backbone providers, which results in
    >fairly poor response from the servers (this is a US observation, it
    >may be worse/better in Europe or other locales). I also see
    >"throttling" with many servers, which is rapid increases/decreases in
    >data delivery rates. You may have a great ping, but the server plays
    >like poopoo b/c the data is not delivered smoothly with a consistent
    >time delay, and the UT engine has an awful time figuring out where to
    >place moving objects when it's prediction engine starts guessing
    >incorrectly.
  19. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "Christoofar" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:iq3rr0dr0qr205n312b2boeovraj241mj7@4ax.com...
    | Interesting point. I don't know if these are possible cheats, but
    | I've noticed some definate inconsistencies...more like what seem to
    be
    | defensive cheats....which could be lag, cheats, or otherwise...


    <snip>

    One "lag" item I see all the time in UT occurs like this: A hallway
    or corridor or doorway is not wide enough for two players to cross
    paths at that location. Sometimes, a good defensive ploy is simply to
    "body-block" the opponent. Yet, so many times, it seems as if the
    opposing player runs right thru my player w/o "bumping" or colliding.
    This, in my opinion, is lag at work and the game fails to detect the
    collision of the players.
    --
    Best regards,
    Kyle
  20. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    Thanks, I too have read the threads on cheating, and they primarily
    center around aim bots. I was trying to determine whether there were
    more versions of cheats. Your explanations seem plausible, and I had
    considered these scenarios. However, when I run into these types of
    things they seem to be on one server and occur in bunches. Your
    reasoning seems best...play on stats servers with AntiTCC or resign
    myself to guessing what the other guy is doing.

    On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:14:30 -0500, Kris Vorwerk
    <nothanks@noonehere.org> wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
    >interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in this
    >regard.
    >
    >As a relatively good (but by no means excellent) player, I've been
    >unfairly accused of cheating on two occasions. (Both times playing on
    >servers with AntiTCC ;) ... I have never used an aimbot and feel that
    >anyone who is caught cheating should have their accounts revoked. At
    >the same time, I think that some people don't want to accept that there
    >are better players than themselves, and tend to be all-too-quick to
    >accuse them of cheating.
    >
    >Admittedly, I've only run across one person that I (along with everyone
    >else) was _sure_ was using an aimbot -- and the player admitted to it.
    >This was on a non-stats server without AntiTCC. So, I've simply stopped
    >playing on servers that don't have AntiTCC (or a similar anti-cheat
    >mechanism) enabled. I feel that this has greatly reduced my exposure to
    >cheaters.
    >
    >Now, with respect to some of your points ...
    >
    >
    >> 1. Literally pushed a player 6 player lengths with a manta and didn't
    >> kill them. Had to jump up and pancake him. The player wasn't immune
    >> either as he had shot at me already.
    >
    >I have seen this. I suspect it has to do with lag -- not with any form
    >of cheating.
    >
    >
    >> 3. Had a player jump out of a raptor, hit the ground, and I proceeded
    >> to hit him with 4 plasma balls and 3 shock rifle primary hits and
    >> numerous alt fire with the gun before the player killed me. I had
    >> full health. Is there a cheat to decrease opponent weapon damage?
    >
    >Perhaps he had 199 health and full armor? Perhaps he picked up some
    >health after he fell out of the raptor? It's pretty hard to suspect
    >cheating based on something like this.
    >
    >
    >> 4. Sometiems seems to be inconsistencies with how quickly players can
    >> kill me. Like some have more weapon "power". Is there a cheat to
    >> increase weapon damage?
    >
    >Hmm. Again, it's difficult to suspect cheating based on this point
    >because the player(s) could easily have acquired a "double damage".
    >
    >
    >> 5. Top Gunned an opponent in a Raptor. In less than 10 seconds, he
    >> was back in the air and hit me with a missile. This happened a couple
    >> times. This player was consistently in the Raptor the entire game.
    >
    >I've done this to people. It works like this: You die, you respawn at
    >a node with a raptor. Conveniently, due to the 27s respawn rate (or
    >whatever it is), there's a raptor waiting for you. You get in, and make
    >it your mission in life to get the guy who just got you ;)
    >
    >This is by no means cheating -- the player simply rushed back to finish
    >you off. I've seen this happen _all the time_. Usually, if it occurs
    >on-ground, I lay down mines in anticipation of the person's return, and
    >usually retreat to a manta.
    >
    >
    >> 6. The tank. Seems that I have to be right on when attacking with
    >> the tank in close quarters, whereas if I'm close, someone can just be
    >> remotely close (maybe 1/4 of a turret turn) and frag me.
    >
    >Hmm. Well, I'm not a great tank-aimer myself, so I can see where you're
    >coming from. But again, I think it's a matter of perception. I simply
    >think that there are players who, without cheating, are: better aimers,
    >better able to take advantage of splash damage (to whittle down your
    >health), and who make it a purpose of getting 199 health + full armor
    >before going out "to do battle".
    >
    >
    >> 7. If I play chicken with a manta, a double jump right/left gets me
    >> out of the way safely...however, against some players I still get
    >> killed. Like their Manta has more killing width or something.
    >
    >Hmm. Perhaps the manta driver accurately predicted the direction that
    >you were going to double-jump? This happens. Or, perhaps you're
    >double-jumping too soon or too late? Personally, I find that I almost
    >never get run over now...
    >
    >
    >
    >I think that most of your points are a bit too subjective to make a
    >compelling case. However, as I have seen a player with an aimbot on a
    >demo server in the past, I can understand your frustration. My solution
    >to this problem has been to stick to stats-only servers that employ
    >anti-cheat mechanisms, and from my own experience, this seems to reduce
    >the incidence of cheating. (I also won't play on servers with mutators
    >that increase firing rate, damage, etc. I like my games to be
    >"pure". :)
    >
    >
    >regards,
    >Kris
  21. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "Christoofar" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:ff2sr01acudj0ua2g0leqalabuobuabkhp@4ax.com...
    > Thanks, I too have read the threads on cheating, and they primarily
    > center around aim bots. I was trying to determine whether there were
    > more versions of cheats. Your explanations seem plausible, and I had
    > considered these scenarios. However, when I run into these types of
    > things they seem to be on one server and occur in bunches. Your
    > reasoning seems best...play on stats servers with AntiTCC or resign
    > myself to guessing what the other guy is doing.
    >

    One other thing you guys are not addressing is the fact that the cheater
    boards/sites are actually very busy places. All these people are not there
    to chat and tell stories. Cheating is rampant. It's just the cheaters are
    becoming very good at hiding the extra help. This is by no means me "crying
    wolf" or expressing sour grapes. I don't play hardly at all anymore but I
    keep up with the cheater community out of interest.
  22. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:14:19 -0500, Folk <Folk@folk.com> wrote:

    >On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    >>wrote:
    >
    >>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
    >>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    >>percentage to me.
    >
    >Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
    >of being a bot.

    I'm OK on onslaught servers, but mediocre at DM, generally I'm better
    at devising tactics than at mouse aiming. Like I wrote last time, I
    only can be certain of manta bots by watching tell tale actions. The
    bots tend to allow the player to stop the manta a lot faster than I've
    ever managed, to track you down and back over you without ever having
    to change the direction it's pointed in, etc. I've also spectated
    players who could drive mantas up steep inclines, whereas the manta
    will only go nose into the mountain side and stop when I try,
    regardless of what angle of approach I use. I see that sort of thing,
    like I say, on about a third of the games.

    Unless you're so good that you can back over people behind you while
    shooting the node, I'll have to disregard your opinion.

    >Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.

    You understood that to be that one in three servers I play on I seem
    to notice the actions characteristic of a bot, not that I figure one
    in three people is using a bot, right?

    >And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
    >is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
    >have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
    >a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
    >it.

    I've played with people who claim to be using manta bots, and given
    their amazing abilities I didn't doubt them. I wrote an auto-aim
    routing into the old Q2 code when they released it to play around with
    the vector math. They're easy to code and I would expect a manta bot
    to be still easier to produce.

    I've also played against players who would to the flying levi trick
    all of the time, and since they fixed that, some who can get the
    hellbender to fly (the "flying hb hack"). Cheating is definitely
    possible.

    >I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
    >servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
    >*know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
    >sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
    >(and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
    >usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
    >and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
    >
    >No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
    >people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
    >person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.

    I play most nights as well (Darwin_Saves!), and I still seem to be
    able to detect manta bots. Again, watch for the tell-tale backing
    over you ploy. I've backed over a few people accidentially, but never
    tracked someone up a hill behind me and run them over while shooting
    the node. If someone does that to you, especially a couple of times
    in a row, you can feel assured you've spotted a manta bot there.
  23. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:07:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:

    > I don't play hardly at all anymore but I keep up with the cheater community out of interest.

    That just seems..... bizarre.
  24. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:36:35 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    wrote:


    >Unless you're so good that you can back over people behind you while
    >shooting the node, I'll have to disregard your opinion.

    Do you drive your Manta in first person or third person view? If you
    use third person, it's trivial to back over people while shooting,
    since you now have a 360 view of things.

    >>Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
    >
    >You understood that to be that one in three servers I play on I seem
    >to notice the actions characteristic of a bot, not that I figure one
    >in three people is using a bot, right?

    That's why I said "33% of the servers" rather than "33% of the
    players".

    >>And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
    >>is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
    >>have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
    >>a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
    >>it.
    >
    >I've played with people who claim to be using manta bots, and given
    >their amazing abilities I didn't doubt them. I wrote an auto-aim
    >routing into the old Q2 code when they released it to play around with
    >the vector math. They're easy to code and I would expect a manta bot
    >to be still easier to produce.

    Although people tried to write aimbot code for alt-flak, it was never
    really successful due to the fact that the projectile follows an arc.
    It was just too difficult to do, so by and large, aimbots are for
    hitscan weapons. So how could one write a cheat for a vehicle which
    doesn't follow a pre-determined path?

    >I've also played against players who would to the flying levi trick
    >all of the time, and since they fixed that, some who can get the
    >hellbender to fly (the "flying hb hack"). Cheating is definitely
    >possible.

    You're confusing exploits with cheats. The flying levi was fixed in
    the first patch.

    >>I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
    >>servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
    >>*know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
    >>sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
    >>(and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
    >>usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
    >>and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
    >>
    >>No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
    >>people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
    >>person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
    >
    >I play most nights as well (Darwin_Saves!), and I still seem to be
    >able to detect manta bots. Again, watch for the tell-tale backing
    >over you ploy. I've backed over a few people accidentially, but never
    >tracked someone up a hill behind me and run them over while shooting
    >the node. If someone does that to you, especially a couple of times
    >in a row, you can feel assured you've spotted a manta bot there.

    Put your perspective into third-person view and see how trivially easy
    it is to do what you're describing.
  25. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:08:50 -0500, Folk <Folk@folk.com> wrote:

    >On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:36:35 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
    >wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Unless you're so good that you can back over people behind you while
    >>shooting the node, I'll have to disregard your opinion.
    >
    >Do you drive your Manta in first person or third person view? If you
    >use third person, it's trivial to back over people while shooting,
    >since you now have a 360 view of things.


    Not nearly so easy as you think. I usually play in third person, and
    even when you zoom way out, you have to be looking down to see far
    behind you. If you zoom in, you can't see far at all, regardless of
    where you're looking. The people I take to be using bots have backed
    over me, for instance, while I'm standing at the the tree stand above
    the first node on Torlan (iun the trees), while they are starting at
    the node and shooting it all the while.

    There's also the matter of how quickly they can stop and turn around,
    a tenth the distance it seems to take me going at the same speed.

    >Although people tried to write aimbot code for alt-flak, it was never
    >really successful due to the fact that the projectile follows an arc.
    >It was just too difficult to do, so by and large, aimbots are for
    >hitscan weapons. So how could one write a cheat for a vehicle which
    >doesn't follow a pre-determined path?

    Actually, it would be much easier when you are in continual control of
    the object/vehicle, rather than trying to predict where the player
    will be when the missile arrives and hope his velocity doesn't change.
    The manta bot would only have to send every other key event to guide
    the vehicle all the way to the target, continually updating the
    projected path with each cycle (similar to the way the aimbot directs
    the players aim for him). That was why I was thinking it would be
    much easier to do. To predict where the projectile is going to land
    and when it will intercept the enemy is difficult compared to simply
    redirecting the vehicle with every from to target the enemy's current
    position. I've also noted predictive aiming - aiming at where I will
    be when the vehicle arrives rather than where I am now, but that is
    also the same vector equations as firing a projectile, performed every
    cycle, so it also isn't a difficult bit of programming.

    >>I've also played against players who would to the flying levi trick
    >>all of the time, and since they fixed that, some who can get the
    >>hellbender to fly (the "flying hb hack"). Cheating is definitely
    >>possible.
    >
    >You're confusing exploits with cheats. The flying levi was fixed in
    >the first patch.

    Yes, "since they fixed that" was how I already said that the levi bug
    was fixed, and I consider a flying hellbender that can be hacked to
    fly to be a cheat, not an "exploit". I haven't had to do that to win.
    I also wish the game would decrement points for spawn camping. A lot
    of the cruddier players like to take a tank near a node and prevent
    the other team from even playing. If they aren't shooting a player
    with weapons or vulnerable node, and if they have to use an "exploit"
    to win, then they should find a game that they're able to play
    successfully and play that, instead of preventing me from playing this
    game.

    >>>I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
    >>>servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
    >>>*know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
    >>>sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
    >>>(and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
    >>>usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
    >>>and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
    >>>
    >>>No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
    >>>people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
    >>>person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
    >>
    >>I play most nights as well (Darwin_Saves!), and I still seem to be
    >>able to detect manta bots. Again, watch for the tell-tale backing
    >>over you ploy. I've backed over a few people accidentially, but never
    >>tracked someone up a hill behind me and run them over while shooting
    >>the node. If someone does that to you, especially a couple of times
    >>in a row, you can feel assured you've spotted a manta bot there.
    >
    >Put your perspective into third-person view and see how trivially easy
    >it is to do what you're describing.

    Try spectating once in a while. Again, people have said they're using
    a manta bot, I've been tracked and backed over from far to great a
    distance not to have had a bot involved, and you can't view far behind
    you when also shooting at a node. And again, I've spectated people
    climbing the hills around the center node in Arctic Stronghold (the
    side cliffs - all the way to the top) and watched people shooting out
    the side and front of the manta in successive shots. There is no
    question about whether a bot is in use, I was only pointing out that
    Epic should do more to stop it or at least to make it difficult.
  26. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
    news:2t6ur094n3mnasmj9vso5pkasqbfn3l6sf@4ax.com...
    > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:07:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:
    >
    >> I don't play hardly at all anymore but I keep up with the cheater
    >> community out of interest.
    >
    > That just seems..... bizarre.
    >

    I understand your reluctance Folk, but you know me as a member here for a
    while. At first UT was a lot of fun for me, but the game itself began to
    bore me. I have always professed to be no better a player than middle-ground
    (on a good day). If the announcer ever said "Mediocre kill!!" that'd be me.
    I fiddled with BR, CTF, and team based games but got tired of bringing the
    teams down. Still, the game interested me so I started delving into the
    physics of the engine itself. (Skinning and mapping didn't appeal. Maybe too
    visceral? I prefer more mathematical pursuits.) This led to an interest into
    how the bots beat the security and how they worked. Even now, it's fun to
    follow the cheat/anti-cheat community. It's the game within the game. Now,
    I'm not going to go high and mighty and say I've never used a cheat. I've
    used them all at one point or another, just not online. I have a second rig
    just to play with them on. I've no interest in cheating in a game online. I
    mean, what's the point? Remember all the fragfests? The name at the bottom
    of almost all of them was {AGUT}goPostal. Still you guys tolerated it and we
    had a good time. That's what it's all about. My interest in cheating is
    separate from my interest in the game.

    All that being said, I can tell you that cheating is definitely rampant. You
    guys should see what's available among private channels. The cheaters are
    becoming very sophisticated and savvy about usage. It's not the auto-fire
    trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier cheats
    wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you behind view,
    and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin to aim at you.
    They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you NOT be interested
    in how something like that works?

    I've always respected your point of view, and nearly always agreed with you
    so it was important for me to clarify my statement.
  27. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    goPostal wrote:
    >
    > "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
    > news:2t6ur094n3mnasmj9vso5pkasqbfn3l6sf@4ax.com...
    > > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:07:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:
    > >
    > >> I don't play hardly at all anymore but I keep up with the cheater
    > >> community out of interest.
    > >
    > > That just seems..... bizarre.
    > >
    >
    > I understand your reluctance Folk, but you know me as a member here for a
    > while. At first UT was a lot of fun for me, but the game itself began to
    > bore me. I have always professed to be no better a player than middle-ground
    > (on a good day). If the announcer ever said "Mediocre kill!!" that'd be me.
    > I fiddled with BR, CTF, and team based games but got tired of bringing the
    > teams down. Still, the game interested me so I started delving into the
    > physics of the engine itself. (Skinning and mapping didn't appeal. Maybe too
    > visceral? I prefer more mathematical pursuits.) This led to an interest into
    > how the bots beat the security and how they worked. Even now, it's fun to
    > follow the cheat/anti-cheat community. It's the game within the game. Now,
    > I'm not going to go high and mighty and say I've never used a cheat. I've
    > used them all at one point or another, just not online. I have a second rig
    > just to play with them on. I've no interest in cheating in a game online. I
    > mean, what's the point? Remember all the fragfests? The name at the bottom
    > of almost all of them was {AGUT}goPostal. Still you guys tolerated it and we
    > had a good time. That's what it's all about. My interest in cheating is
    > separate from my interest in the game.
    >
    > All that being said, I can tell you that cheating is definitely rampant. You
    > guys should see what's available among private channels. The cheaters are
    > becoming very sophisticated and savvy about usage. It's not the auto-fire
    > trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier cheats
    > wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you behind view,
    > and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin to aim at you.
    > They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you NOT be interested
    > in how something like that works?
    >
    > I've always respected your point of view, and nearly always agreed with you
    > so it was important for me to clarify my statement.

    Given your knowledge, I would be really curious to hear your views on
    the state of anti cheating, now, and going forward competing against the
    cheat developers. I mean, is this just something that online players
    are going to have to live with?

    Lisa
  28. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    "Lars Wilsen" <spam@someone.else> skrev i en meddelelse
    news:iclkr01i1bio883kid1umeo424n1jbt7eq@4ax.com...
    > On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard
    some
    > >guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a
    bunch
    > >of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never
    really
    > >seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't
    end
    > >up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
    >
    > I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself. It's
    > difficult to see behind you in a manta, but I ham constatnly having
    > others track me as I dodge while they're moving backward, which means
    > they pretty much have to be using a manta bot. You can also only move
    > at descrete forward directions in a manta using either just forward or
    > a combination of forward and strafe, so anyone who is managing to
    > curve into you without changing the orientation of the manta itself is
    > almost certainly botting. Half the time when I point out that soemone
    > is botting, they admit to it, so I think those constitute reliable
    > critera for detecting them.
    >
    > I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
    > using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
    > percentage to me.
    >
    > I have found that by jumping toward the manta but to one side as it
    > comes toward you that you can get it to fly by, but you still have to
    > kill it because the bot will bring the manta back toward you a lot
    > faster than a human could. I even had two bot users from the HK clan
    > orbiting me for some five revolutions because their bots wouldn't let
    > them go on and play the game.
    >
    > I've considered writting a bot to detect manta bots or at least to act
    > as an aimbot specifically against those I know to be botting, but I
    > haven't had the time, and I haven't seen any references to how they're
    > written (I'm a programmer).
    >
    > Onslaught is a great game and I really hope Battle-Zone style games
    > like it take off (I think it's the most played game of those provided
    > in 2K4), but Unreal definitely has a problem with bots and hacks.
    >
    > Lars

    When using outside view when flying the manta it is possible to do vehicle
    manslaughter while pounding the node. However, I will agree that most of the
    time it is at least 50 pct luck.... for me at least.
    I never really thought of a manta bot, but the movements you descripe are
    way too familiar. I have practiced a lot trying to figure out how the he..
    they make such tight turns and moves, all in vain.
    Couldn't agree more, cheats are so bad for the gaming experience... But will
    there ever be a cheat-free game?

    Brgds, PyroStorm_DK
  29. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "Lisa Horton" <Lisa091704@lisahorton.net> wrote in message
    news:41BFEC4B.1F9B504E@lisahorton.net...
    > Given your knowledge, I would be really curious to hear your views on
    > the state of anti cheating, now, and going forward competing against the
    > cheat developers. I mean, is this just something that online players
    > are going to have to live with?
    >
    > Lisa

    Honestly Lisa, and this is strictly my own opinion here, cheating cannot be
    stopped completely. Among online gaming UT has one of the more zealous
    anti-cheat communities but they can't really stem the tide. The game itself
    has a large portion of blame. The design was such that cheats were actually
    built into the game (remember auto-aim in the setup?) and enabling Loque to
    be in essence an aimbot on godlike setting. Once anyone could see it was
    possible the next logical step was "Can I do that?"

    Still, it's incredibly hard to build a fast-paced game that is also secure.
    If you read about some of the better anti-cheat add-ons that are available
    one of the chief problems is lag. Also, and I never cease to be amazed at
    this, some of the anti-cheats can easily make changes to your .ini files
    without your consent. Not a big deal you think? With a little tweaking I was
    able to use that as a gateway on my LAN to get into my main computer's hard
    drive.

    Bottom line (still opinion here) cheating is here to stay. You can't patch
    it away because it's part and parcel of the game design. I'll be interested
    in seeing if Epic does any changes in the next game to disallow cheating in
    the form it has now. Personally I'd say not and here's why: Cheaters buy
    game copies. Lots of them. They have a very dedicated community that is
    quite robust. They enjoy the challenge. Way more so than the people trying
    to block them.
  30. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

    Lars Wilsen wrote:

    > Try spectating once in a while. Again, people have said they're using
    > a manta bot, I've been tracked and backed over from far to great a
    > distance not to have had a bot involved, and you can't view far behind
    > you when also shooting at a node. And again, I've spectated people
    > climbing the hills around the center node in Arctic Stronghold (the
    > side cliffs - all the way to the top) and watched people shooting out
    > the side and front of the manta in successive shots. There is no
    > question about whether a bot is in use, I was only pointing out that
    > Epic should do more to stop it or at least to make it difficult.

    Nothing of what you say has convinced me that a 'Manta bot' exists.
    I've played ONS since it first appeared, virtually every night, and
    can't say I've ever suspected a Manta pilot of cheating.
  31. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:


    >I've always respected your point of view, and nearly always agreed with you
    >so it was important for me to clarify my statement.
    >

    It still seems bizarre gP, but your explanation makes it seem less so.
    <G>
  32. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:

    > It's not the
    > auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
    > cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
    > behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
    > to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
    > NOT be interested in how something like that works?

    I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
    concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
    have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
    interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
    look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.

    --
    {AGUT}DeadMan
  33. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "{AGUT}DeadMan" <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2004.12.16.01.22.13.186050@hotmail.com...
    > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
    >
    >> It's not the
    >> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
    >> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
    >> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
    >> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
    >> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
    >
    > I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
    > concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
    > have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
    > interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
    > look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
    >
    > --
    > {AGUT}DeadMan
    >

    No prob DeadMan. I stay pretty active on the cheater boards and I'd be more
    than happy to reference you to any information you might want to see. I
    think it's narrow-minded to think that just because someone has interest
    that they are automatically cheating. You don't have to defend jack to us. I
    am interested (like you, and I'll wager quite a few others here) in how
    these things work. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you are
    automatically a hunter, you know?
    Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
    on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
    cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
    of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
    could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :) I just think that if more
    people were educated about how these things work, they'd be a hell of a lot
    more aware as to what's really going on. Nothing helps solve a problem quite
    like shining a bright light on it.
  34. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    When I started this thread, what I witness has been more akin to what
    you're describing below. Extra health, extra damage, ability to
    "dodge" shots. I've only seen one aimbot and that happened last week.
    The regularity of players who aren't that good, but seem to just have
    a "little extra" is more common. So much so, that it can't be
    attributed to skill disparity. When the inconsistencies happen once,
    OK, I can take that, but over the course of 3 games? Can't be
    coincidence.

    On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:22:14 -0500, {AGUT}DeadMan
    <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
    >
    >> It's not the
    >> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
    >> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
    >> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
    >> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
    >> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
    >
    >I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
    >concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
    >have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
    >interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
    >look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
  35. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:15:58 GMT, Christoofar <nospam@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    >When I started this thread, what I witness has been more akin to what
    >you're describing below. Extra health, extra damage, ability to
    >"dodge" shots.

    Someone with more knowledge on this subject is welcome to chime in
    with a correction, but as far as I know, there are no UT related
    cheats that add health, make one invincible or assist with player
    movement. Most cheats boil down to aiming and radar.

    So if someone is out-maneuvering you, they are simply better at
    movement. If you think you're hitting someone and they don't seem to
    be taking damage, remember that this is an internet based game with
    the client doing a lot of predicting about what it *thinks* has
    happened. Between lost packets and general lag, you see a lot of
    stupid stuff while playing online that has absolutely nothing to do
    with cheats.

    And the more you "study" cheating, the more you are likely to *think*
    you see cheaters. If you spend all your time reading about the
    supernatural, you're a hell of a lot more likely to think you've seen
    a ghost.
  36. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    I would not want to download any cheat programs, however I would like
    to know where the websites are so I can see the variety of
    availability to confirm my suspicions.

    Again, I notice these things most rampant on the demo servers, and
    there is a dramatic swing when the players I suspect of having an
    "edge" come in.

    For instance, two days ago, a player came in and was racking up frags.
    I got into several one on ones with this guy. I was nailing him 3 to
    1, but he won every one...these were pretty drawn out encounters, so I
    know he wasn't that good or he would have eaten my lunch earlier in
    the battle. The only way to get him was with a instant kill, like a
    point blank flak hit or crushing in a manta. This was on Primeaval
    where there isn't much armor. It was like he had a regen program or
    something. Also, his manta was extremely agile. I noticed it was
    always tilted towards me when I got hit. It was an odd look for the
    manta. No matter which way I jumped it was tilted that way. Nobody
    can be that lucky to anticipate moves EVERY time and react that way
    AND have the mobility of the manta to make the kill. Oh, and was
    able to dodge AVRILS and escape them with ease. Nuff said.

    On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:10:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:

    >
    >"{AGUT}DeadMan" <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >news:pan.2004.12.16.01.22.13.186050@hotmail.com...
    >> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
    >>
    >>> It's not the
    >>> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
    >>> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
    >>> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
    >>> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
    >>> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
    >>
    >> I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
    >> concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
    >> have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
    >> interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
    >> look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
    >>
    >> --
    >> {AGUT}DeadMan
    >>
    >
    >No prob DeadMan. I stay pretty active on the cheater boards and I'd be more
    >than happy to reference you to any information you might want to see. I
    >think it's narrow-minded to think that just because someone has interest
    >that they are automatically cheating. You don't have to defend jack to us. I
    >am interested (like you, and I'll wager quite a few others here) in how
    >these things work. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you are
    >automatically a hunter, you know?
    >Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
    >on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
    >cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
    >of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
    >could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :) I just think that if more
    >people were educated about how these things work, they'd be a hell of a lot
    >more aware as to what's really going on. Nothing helps solve a problem quite
    >like shining a bright light on it.
    >
  37. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:10:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:

    >
    >"{AGUT}DeadMan" <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    >news:pan.2004.12.16.01.22.13.186050@hotmail.com...
    >> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
    >>
    >>> It's not the
    >>> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
    >>> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
    >>> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
    >>> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
    >>> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
    >>
    >> I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
    >> concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
    >> have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
    >> interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
    >> look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
    >>
    >> --
    >> {AGUT}DeadMan
    >>
    >
    >No prob DeadMan. I stay pretty active on the cheater boards and I'd be more
    >than happy to reference you to any information you might want to see. I
    >think it's narrow-minded to think that just because someone has interest
    >that they are automatically cheating. You don't have to defend jack to us. I
    >am interested (like you, and I'll wager quite a few others here) in how
    >these things work. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you are
    >automatically a hunter, you know?
    >Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
    >on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
    >cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
    >of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
    >could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :) I just think that if more
    >people were educated about how these things work, they'd be a hell of a lot
    >more aware as to what's really going on. Nothing helps solve a problem quite
    >like shining a bright light on it.

    I just started reading the group, but I'm not surprised about you
    being crucified. I wonder if the people who complain loudest about
    the absurdity of others cheating aren't using it for a smoke cover tor
    their own bot usage.

    I was wondering about having a way to detect if I was aiming at
    someone - frequently I've goten nailed a dozen times by someone and
    when I finaly figure out his roost, he leaves the second I get him
    targeted. That always seemed like an amazing coincidence to me.
    That't gratifying to know that at least in some of those cases I was
    being cheated on and not just being unlucky.

    I definitely admit to stinking, at least at DM, so there is no reason
    for me to complain about cheating as an ego defense when I openly
    admit to being mediocre as a player. In addition to the cheats
    Christoofar already posted, all of which I have also noticed, I was
    wondering if there were cheats for these:

    o Quad damage at all times - I have played a number of times where I
    would still take 6 avrils to kill a hellbender, but every time I got
    in one I could be killed in a single missle, and even with only half a
    dozen shots from a chaingun. On one server, the map had only one quad
    and we controlled the node. In fact, during one of the
    single-avril-shot deaths I had the quad powerup.

    o Making the tank shot accurate. When I shoot the tank, the random
    spread is less gaussian and more first derivitive of a gaussian - the
    shots are never on target, and generally roam around an angle-offset
    from the target center. However, it seems like just about everyone
    who likes to get into the tanks can shoot me dead on from the haze
    limit with a single shot. I don't think I've ever killed anyone
    through an on-target shot from the tank, only ever through splash
    damage. Is there a cheat to make the tank accurate?

    o Having weapons you shouldn't have. I've played with people who had
    spider mines spread around their own base on torlan who were in the
    process of trying to get back their first node. They shouldn't have
    had any place to get spider mine, except to go to the first node, get
    them without being shot at the enemy node, then return to spread them
    around. Is there a hack to use the give-all cheats in multiplayer
    games?

    Which are the more fruitful cheater forums? I would love to take a
    look myself and read about what they're doing.

    Thanks in advance,

    Lars
  38. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
    news:3n46s09embduvjavs1tphdb91b5kblq2pf@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:15:58 GMT, Christoofar <nospam@hotmail.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>When I started this thread, what I witness has been more akin to what
    >>you're describing below. Extra health, extra damage, ability to
    >>"dodge" shots.
    >
    > Someone with more knowledge on this subject is welcome to chime in
    > with a correction, but as far as I know, there are no UT related
    > cheats that add health, make one invincible or assist with player
    > movement. Most cheats boil down to aiming and radar.
    >

    Fok is pretty much right here. Almost all cheats are client-based. The ones
    that alter the server are beaten almost as quickly as they come out because
    the person running the server will notice something amiss (or should:)
    There was a really good invisi cheat that made the rounds, along with a
    god-mode one but they've been fixed. Occasionally you'll see the god one pop
    up, but it's on servers not running semi-current anti-cheat. My own opinion
    on movement is that it has much more to do with external client-side
    assistance (mostly macros) when you see way above average movement skills.
    Not to mention lag wreaks hell on movement presentation.

    > So if someone is out-maneuvering you, they are simply better at
    > movement. If you think you're hitting someone and they don't seem to
    > be taking damage, remember that this is an internet based game with
    > the client doing a lot of predicting about what it *thinks* has
    > happened. Between lost packets and general lag, you see a lot of
    > stupid stuff while playing online that has absolutely nothing to do
    > with cheats.
    >
    > And the more you "study" cheating, the more you are likely to *think*
    > you see cheaters. If you spend all your time reading about the
    > supernatural, you're a hell of a lot more likely to think you've seen
    > a ghost.
    >

    So very true. Once I started comparing ping and packet loss with people I
    presumed were cheating, I was surprised at how much lag presented itself as
    cheating.
  39. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    Hi,

    Just a few minor points ...


    > o Quad damage at all times - I have played a number of times where I
    > would still take 6 avrils to kill a hellbender, but every time I got
    > in one I could be killed in a single missle, and even with only half a

    Just because the Hellbender takes 600 damage doesn't mean that you will
    survive that long. If the enemy shoots directly at you (seated in the
    vehicle), your own health could well be depleted before the Hellbender's
    armor.


    > spread is less gaussian and more first derivitive of a gaussian - the

    I'm not sure how damage can be correlated to the 1st derivative of a
    Gaussian function. (The first derivative is positive on the left of the
    y axis and it goes negative on the right ... So, do you mean to say that
    you find tank shots to be _giving_ health back to the players? I'm not
    sure how else to define negative damage :)


    > around. Is there a hack to use the give-all cheats in multiplayer
    > games?

    This seems very dubious to me. In the situation that you've described
    (in Torlan, for example), people can just rush to _your_ first node,
    grab some spider mines, and high-tail it back to their base without
    encountering much confrontation.


    Kris
  40. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:27:46 -0500, Kris Vorwerk
    <nothanks@noonehere.org> wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >Just a few minor points ...
    >
    >
    >> o Quad damage at all times - I have played a number of times where I
    >> would still take 6 avrils to kill a hellbender, but every time I got
    >> in one I could be killed in a single missle, and even with only half a
    >
    >Just because the Hellbender takes 600 damage doesn't mean that you will
    >survive that long. If the enemy shoots directly at you (seated in the
    >vehicle), your own health could well be depleted before the Hellbender's
    >armor.

    I had full heath, and the Hellbender was initially undepleted. The
    hellbender blew up (had its damange points depleted) both by the avril
    and by the few chaingun shots.

    >> spread is less gaussian and more first derivitive of a gaussian - the
    >
    >I'm not sure how damage can be correlated to the 1st derivative of a
    >Gaussian function. (The first derivative is positive on the left of the
    >y axis and it goes negative on the right ... So, do you mean to say that
    >you find tank shots to be _giving_ health back to the players? I'm not
    >sure how else to define negative damage :)

    Areally, that is in 2 dimensions, the Gaussian curve has a zero at the
    center, climbs to a maximum magnitude (vectored away from the center)
    some distance away, then falls back to zero at large distances.

    At least when I shoot the tank, it doesn't use a Gaussian distribution
    with the majority of the shots at or near the center, but rather tends
    to hit its highest probability at a distance from the target center.
    I meant to say that for me, hitting the point I have the tank tageted
    on is very rare, while hitting a point to one side (above, below, left
    right) of the target and killing with splash damage is the norm. A
    few players seem to be able to hit me dead on from any distance -
    rendering useless the defensive tactics I use on other players.

    Can you answer how those players are managing to consistantly get
    better performance than me? Is there a "don't distribute tank shots"
    check button I've missed somewhere?


    >> around. Is there a hack to use the give-all cheats in multiplayer
    >> games?
    >
    >This seems very dubious to me. In the situation that you've described
    >(in Torlan, for example), people can just rush to _your_ first node,
    >grab some spider mines, and high-tail it back to their base without
    >encountering much confrontation.

    Well, I asked him where he was getting them, and his answer was that
    he wasn't sure, he just ran over some weapons lockers and wound up
    with them. I saw him throwing them once while I was attacking their
    core and there was no manta around him - although it may have been
    taken by a player who knew what he was doing. I find it harder to
    believe that someone would take the manta to our first node, pick them
    up and go back to core with them. Seems like a waste of time seing as
    how most people attacking the core on that map use mantas.

    For me, it seems unusual for someone to provide explanations that are
    even more absurd than just a cheating explanation. It tends to make
    me question why you would be working so hard (and poorly) to dusuade
    me from questioning about cheats.

    Lars
  41. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote in message
    news:o4Lwd.1644$6y5.1188@fe03.lga...
    |
    | "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
    | news:3n46s09embduvjavs1tphdb91b5kblq2pf@4ax.com...
    | > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:15:58 GMT, Christoofar <nospam@hotmail.com>
    | > wrote:
    | >

    |
    | Fok is pretty much right here. Almost all cheats are client-based.
    The ones
    | that alter the server are beaten almost as quickly as they come out
    because
    | the person running the server will notice something amiss (or
    should:)
    | There was a really good invisi cheat that made the rounds, along
    with a
    | god-mode one but they've been fixed. Occasionally you'll see the god
    one pop
    | up, but it's on servers not running semi-current anti-cheat. My own
    opinion
    | on movement is that it has much more to do with external client-side
    | assistance (mostly macros) when you see way above average movement
    skills.
    | Not to mention lag wreaks hell on movement presentation.


    FWIW, I won't reveal how it's done, but a server admin can setup UT to
    give "those in the know" a speed hack, or the ability to move faster
    than other players. There is no way of detecting this either. How do
    I know this? One of the server rental company techs told me of the
    "setup" to achieve this functionality. (I've been saddled with server
    admin responsibility for quite some time with my UT clan.) There may
    be other "holes" or "unfixed bugs" that persist even in the latest
    patched version of UT or UT2kx. As a person who enjoys competition,
    I simply cannot comprehend the joy in cheating, but maybe that's
    because I'm much older, and values are simply different now with some
    younger folks. Or, maybe it's because my Mother thumped me everytime
    I did something that was not honest or forthright (we ARE a product of
    our environment, aren't we? lol).

    As to inexplicable player movements, I do think lag and the prediction
    aspect of the UT engines will make some players or maybe even vehicles
    look odd, yet the ability of laggy players to shoot you may still be
    very good. This is, perhaps, because you are not laggy to them.
    I've had people tell me, at times, I was very hard to shoot, but I
    think mostly it's because I don't stand still much. When my
    connection is laggy, I usually have a more difficult time hitting
    targets, though I've seen the rare occasion where my ping was high,
    yet stable, and I was able to hit a lot of targets.

    As to investigating cheats on the internet, I have perused such
    websites on numerous occasions looking for information on how the
    cheats work, where the come from, and the basics of their use. As a
    server admin, such info is necessary to combat the cheating community.
    I personally believe there are many more cheaters than most would
    imagine. One of the best anti-cheat tools still around for UT is the
    antishockho mod that logs player keybinds. It's amazing to see what
    some players have setup for their keybinds.

    Just my 2 cents worth on the cheating topic.
    --
    Best regards,
    Kyle
  42. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    Hi,


    > Can you answer how those players are managing to consistantly get
    > better performance than me?

    No offense, but perhaps you're just not as good as them? I mean, I get
    killed all the time during on-line play -- yet I would hesitate, based
    on the evidence of someone falling out of a Raptor, acquiring a set of
    mines, killing me in a Hellbender, or shooting me with a tank, to draw
    any conclusions whatsoever about the presence of cheating in a match.


    > For me, it seems unusual for someone to provide explanations that are
    > even more absurd than just a cheating explanation. It tends to make
    > me question why you would be working so hard (and poorly) to dusuade
    > me from questioning about cheats.

    I'm not attempting to dissuade you from questioning cheating -- in fact,
    I find this discussion quite interesting. However, I _am_ calling into
    question your evidence. I've found your arguments to be highly
    subjective and very debatable; i.e., they all revolve around how another
    player bested you under rather unclear circumstances. You haven't
    succeeded in convincing me that the incidence of cheating is as
    prevalent as you suspect.

    A far more convincing argument would call into question the
    effectiveness of current anti-cheat mechanisms. One of the things that
    I'm wondering (but don't know), for example, is whether or not mods like
    AntiTCC are effective. Based on my own experiences -- and the premise
    for my retorts in this forum -- is that the occurrence of cheating seems
    to be very close to zero on servers that run this mod.

    I don't support cheating, and feel that cheaters' accounts should be
    permanently CD-key banned -- it diminishes the game for all of us. It's
    disheartening to think, though, that some people are so pessimistic of
    their own capabilities that they assume that superior players cheat.


    regards,
    Kris
  43. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    goPostal wrote:
    >
    > "Lisa Horton" <Lisa091704@lisahorton.net> wrote in message
    > news:41BFEC4B.1F9B504E@lisahorton.net...
    > > Given your knowledge, I would be really curious to hear your views on
    > > the state of anti cheating, now, and going forward competing against the
    > > cheat developers. I mean, is this just something that online players
    > > are going to have to live with?
    > >
    > > Lisa
    >
    > Honestly Lisa, and this is strictly my own opinion here, cheating cannot be
    > stopped completely. Among online gaming UT has one of the more zealous
    > anti-cheat communities but they can't really stem the tide. The game itself
    > has a large portion of blame. The design was such that cheats were actually
    > built into the game (remember auto-aim in the setup?) and enabling Loque to
    > be in essence an aimbot on godlike setting. Once anyone could see it was
    > possible the next logical step was "Can I do that?"
    >
    > Still, it's incredibly hard to build a fast-paced game that is also secure.
    > If you read about some of the better anti-cheat add-ons that are available
    > one of the chief problems is lag. Also, and I never cease to be amazed at
    > this, some of the anti-cheats can easily make changes to your .ini files
    > without your consent. Not a big deal you think? With a little tweaking I was
    > able to use that as a gateway on my LAN to get into my main computer's hard
    > drive.
    >
    > Bottom line (still opinion here) cheating is here to stay. You can't patch
    > it away because it's part and parcel of the game design. I'll be interested
    > in seeing if Epic does any changes in the next game to disallow cheating in
    > the form it has now. Personally I'd say not and here's why: Cheaters buy
    > game copies. Lots of them. They have a very dedicated community that is
    > quite robust. They enjoy the challenge. Way more so than the people trying
    > to block them.

    Thanks for the response. Too bad they couldn't divide servers into
    "clean" and "anything goes".

    But it does seem clear that as long as there are players, some will want
    to cheat.

    Lisa
  44. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:56:29 -0500, Kris Vorwerk
    <nothanks@noonehere.org> wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >
    >> Can you answer how those players are managing to consistantly get
    >> better performance than me?
    >
    >No offense, but perhaps you're just not as good as them? I mean, I get
    >killed all the time during on-line play -- yet I would hesitate, based
    >on the evidence of someone falling out of a Raptor, acquiring a set of
    >mines, killing me in a Hellbender, or shooting me with a tank, to draw
    >any conclusions whatsoever about the presence of cheating in a match.

    No offense, but is that supposed to be an argument? Are you certain
    you've tried to follow the thread? There's a random spread in the
    tank firing - you place the crosshair directly on a target and, no
    matter how good you are, you practically never hit that point.
    Anything other than an explanation of how some players manage hit the
    center of the crosshair every time, such as your last post, is
    unresponsive. That doesn't require being a better player not to have,
    it's an unavoidable (at least if you aren't botting) part of the game.

    I wasn't the one who posted about falling out of a raptor and
    surviving. On maps where there are health kegs and armor I tend to
    pick them up and frequently survive jumping from raptors when I have
    them. Even if they're botting to achieve the effect using hacks or
    cheats or bots, I can at least compete by grabbing the proper powerups
    so they haven't bothered me. That was another poster. When I have
    the only damage boost on the map and I'm killed with a single avril
    shot in a hellbender, or when a tank can shoot me every time without
    having to suffer random shot spread, which doesn't even have a
    powerup, then there is evidence for botting/cheating.

    >> For me, it seems unusual for someone to provide explanations that are
    >> even more absurd than just a cheating explanation. It tends to make
    >> me question why you would be working so hard (and poorly) to dusuade
    >> me from questioning about cheats.
    >
    >I'm not attempting to dissuade you from questioning cheating -- in fact,
    >I find this discussion quite interesting. However, I _am_ calling into
    >question your evidence. I've found your arguments to be highly
    >subjective and very debatable; i.e., they all revolve around how another
    >player bested you under rather unclear circumstances. You haven't
    >succeeded in convincing me that the incidence of cheating is as
    >prevalent as you suspect.

    Again, it's possible that you haven't understood the thread. You see,
    if one person says "was killed in a hell bender with full health and
    full damage points for the hellbender with a single avril", they just
    saying that the evidence is insufficient isn't good enough. To argue
    the point, you would post "call up the torlan map, hold the right
    mouse button down, jump, then fire while you're in the air and the
    hellbender will be detroyed in a single shot" (or whatever scenario
    you imagine). Do you see? Do you understand how a debate would be
    formatted? Please post again with an argumentative response.

    >A far more convincing argument would call into question the
    >effectiveness of current anti-cheat mechanisms. One of the things that
    >I'm wondering (but don't know), for example, is whether or not mods like
    >AntiTCC are effective. Based on my own experiences -- and the premise
    >for my retorts in this forum -- is that the occurrence of cheating seems
    >to be very close to zero on servers that run this mod.
    >
    >I don't support cheating, and feel that cheaters' accounts should be
    >permanently CD-key banned -- it diminishes the game for all of us. It's
    >disheartening to think, though, that some people are so pessimistic of
    >their own capabilities that they assume that superior players cheat.

    I already said that I'm not a great player. I've already taken into
    account that a lot of players are better deathmatchers than me.
    Again, there is no amount of practice that will allow you to accuratly
    aim a tank or kill a hellbender with one avril without a damage boost.

    No offense, but I'm curious about your intent here. Is that some sort
    of PeeWee Herman "I know you are but what am I" type argument? I'm
    supposed to concede the argument because to continue to argue implies
    that I'm a worse player? Should I have pointed out that I'm older
    than 10 years?

    goPostal follows the cheater forums and seems to think botting is
    still possible for some bot types. I've looked at the obvious,
    yahoo-findable cheat forums and they also seem to think some bots are
    still in use. I find their arguments far better than yours, which
    aren't actually even arguements.

    I'm not really trying to convince you about the problem, here, I was
    posting to try to get some of goPostals insight into what was and
    wasn't possible for cheating. No offense, but given your trend toward
    denial, I'm not really interested in making arguments to convince you
    of anything.
  45. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    Kris Vorwerk wrote:

    > Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
    > interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in this
    > regard.

    Nice first post, welcome!

    I won't quote all of it, but I agree pretty much with your opinion -
    that too many accuse without proof. I only play ut99 btw, but the
    problem is the same.

    I KNOW most accusations that I've seen are false, and that's gone on for
    years. I've been playing UT since it was released (5 years ago), pretty
    much on a daily basis. I wrote the aimbot faq (
    http://www.digdilem.org/ut/aimbot.html ) and have worked on anti-cheat a
    fair bit. (Not currently, though)

    [Rant]

    3 days ago: Within the first minute of entering a server, I get accused
    of botting. Ok, it was a lucky shot - a double sniper headshot taking
    out a guy with a shieldbelt. Later that day I get accused of
    spawncamping (I wasn't).

    2 days ago: Get accused of spawncamping again (same guy). This sets off
    another guy who starts moaning about everyone, game ruined because the 2
    strongest players on the other team spend it typing, which leads to more
    moaning because the teams are unfair... So I leave server, go onto a
    sniper server. I do really well, and am leading the first full game by
    20 points and get to 55 out of 60. Then am kicked because I'm "clearly
    cheating".

    I've been accused of aimbotting too many times to count (including
    laughable cases with rockets, redeemer and slimegun), been accused of
    having radar and wallhacks (because I can listen to sounds and take a
    guess where someone is, or just because I can spam at a likely spot) and
    even accused of using a dodgebot.

    And yet, I am 100% clean. I don't cheat, never have and wouldn't
    consider it fair to others to even try. I'm not even THAT great a player
    - compared to the Div1 guys I'm a muppet with a gun.

    I do play a lot, UT's my favourite game and my best way of stress
    relief. I have a good adsl connection with a low ping and rock-solid
    throughput (Eclipse 20-1 contention btw, recommended).

    So yes, I KNOW that most accusations are made in the heat of the moment
    by a frustrated player. I also think that those players should hold
    their tongue until they have proof, because every false alarm makes it
    easier for those who DO cheat. I also get annoyed when people think that
    because you have some skill with a sniper rifle or instagib rifle, it's
    automatic that you cheat. Also, sometimes a player can just get lucky
    and make a shot beyond their normal skill. It happens.

    [/rant]

    There is far too much witch-hunting, not just amongst the normal players
    but also amongst the anti-cheat community, but that's a rant for another
    day... :)

    --
    Flash
  46. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message
    news:ptudnewzIpF9-lncRVnyhQ@eclipse.net.uk...
    | Kris Vorwerk wrote:
    |
    | > Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
    | > interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in
    this
    | > regard.
    |
    | Nice first post, welcome!
    |
    | I won't quote all of it, but I agree pretty much with your opinion -
    | that too many accuse without proof. I only play ut99 btw, but the
    | problem is the same.
    |
    | I KNOW most accusations that I've seen are false, and that's gone on
    for
    | years. I've been playing UT since it was released (5 years ago),
    pretty
    | much on a daily basis. I wrote the aimbot faq (
    | http://www.digdilem.org/ut/aimbot.html ) and have worked on
    anti-cheat a
    | fair bit. (Not currently, though)
    |

    I usually say "thank you, didn't know I was doing that well" when
    someone accuses me of aimbotting, as it's a strong indicator I'm
    playing well.

    <snip>|
    | And yet, I am 100% clean. I don't cheat, never have and wouldn't
    | consider it fair to others to even try. I'm not even THAT great a
    player
    | - compared to the Div1 guys I'm a muppet with a gun.
    |
    <snip>|

    | --
    | Flash


    Thank your lucky stars for the stable connection. I subscribe to both
    cable and dsl broadband, neither of which is very stable, and routing
    problems to many servers with either connection (routing that keeps
    switching back and forth between 2 different routes, UT don't like
    that very much, too much data thottling). It is nice to be able to
    switch to the service that "might" work better with a particular
    server, sometimes tho, neither connection works worth a pile of dung
    (which has great odor and stinketh mightily). The odd thing is my
    first major internet hub with either connection is one of the largest
    cities in the US (Chicago) and that's where quite a bit of the routing
    delays and schmucky peering are detected.


    --
    Best regards,
    Kyle
  47. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    goPostal wrote:

    > Bottom line (still opinion here) cheating is here to stay. You can't patch
    > it away because it's part and parcel of the game design. I'll be interested
    > in seeing if Epic does any changes in the next game to disallow cheating in
    > the form it has now. Personally I'd say not and here's why: Cheaters buy
    > game copies. Lots of them.

    Do they, though?

    I'd have thought that any group of people who don't have any moral
    issues with cheating at a multiplayer game, would have a similar lack of
    moral issues about downloading the game instead of paying for it?

    That's not to say non-cheaters always buy the game, but as a demographic
    I'd expect them to be more honest.

    Also, and this is pretty important, cheaters ruin the game for
    non-cheaters. They also ruin the game for themselves in the long view.
    Players become disallusioned and move elsewhere. (Although where? All
    FPS's have this problem afaik) So Epic, if they are smart, should make
    an effort to stop it...

    ....which they did... They hired UT's top anti-cheat coder, Dr Sin, and
    gave him a nice little job stopping 2k3 onwards from being overrun.
    (Sorry TNSE, but you're european and also rude and weird, so Dr Sin gets
    the hat).

    But, cynically, anti-cheat people need cheat people to survive, just
    like the anti-virus and anti-spyware markets. Very lucrative, but
    require Bad Guys (real or invented), so a single-hit "Stop all cheaters
    forever" solution would put them out of a job, even if it were possible.

    It's human nature to try and gain an edge. Morals are very elastic
    things and the human brain can justify ANY action or decision (Check
    some world history for abundant proof). Cheaters, like thieves,
    drug-taking sportsmen and businessmen of ethical dubiosity will always
    be with us.

    --
    Flash
  48. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    "Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message
    news:XKSdnfL_EKdP91ncRVnyiw@eclipse.net.uk...
    > goPostal wrote:
    >

    > Do they, though?
    >
    > I'd have thought that any group of people who don't have any moral issues
    > with cheating at a multiplayer game, would have a similar lack of moral
    > issues about downloading the game instead of paying for it?
    >
    > That's not to say non-cheaters always buy the game, but as a demographic
    > I'd expect them to be more honest.
    >
    > Also, and this is pretty important, cheaters ruin the game for
    > non-cheaters. They also ruin the game for themselves in the long view.
    > Players become disallusioned and move elsewhere. (Although where? All
    > FPS's have this problem afaik) So Epic, if they are smart, should make an
    > effort to stop it...
    >
    > ...which they did... They hired UT's top anti-cheat coder, Dr Sin, and
    > gave him a nice little job stopping 2k3 onwards from being overrun. (Sorry
    > TNSE, but you're european and also rude and weird, so Dr Sin gets the
    > hat).
    >
    > But, cynically, anti-cheat people need cheat people to survive, just like
    > the anti-virus and anti-spyware markets. Very lucrative, but require Bad
    > Guys (real or invented), so a single-hit "Stop all cheaters forever"
    > solution would put them out of a job, even if it were possible.
    >
    > It's human nature to try and gain an edge. Morals are very elastic things
    > and the human brain can justify ANY action or decision (Check some world
    > history for abundant proof). Cheaters, like thieves, drug-taking
    > sportsmen and businessmen of ethical dubiosity will always be with us.
    >
    > --
    > Flash

    Hey Flash! How've ya been? You make some very important points here. One
    needs the other to survive. (Actually it was you who got me so interested in
    cheats in the first place. Your aimbot FAQ simply fascinated me when I first
    read it.)
    Along those same lines, I never have been able to find that damn "feign
    death" cheat that I saw online a couple of years ago that made it into your
    FAQ. I still swear I saw it though!! :)
  49. Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

    goPostal wrote:

    > Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
    > on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
    > cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
    > of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
    > could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :)

    It is indeed. Now imagine how many requests you get when you host a
    website dedicated to the subject...

    I wonder how many requests CSHP/Pure/NBSP/Ash/UTDC/Qvalidate get? :)

    --
    Flash
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