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Cheats in UT2004

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Anonymous
September 13, 2004 9:17:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.

More about : cheats ut2004

Anonymous
September 13, 2004 9:17:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

i won't buy ut2k4 after i have read and heard so many stories of cheating on
ut2k3. i find it extremely diffucult to play against cheaters (obviously)
and it has taken away my enjoyment of the game.

i read some too the all the 2003 cheats work on 2004.

jay cee


"eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org> wrote in message
news:%Ck1d.1306224$y4.229403@news.easynews.com...
> Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard
some
> guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
> of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
> seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't
end
> up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
>
>
September 13, 2004 9:17:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

I'd say I met about 8 AIM botter cheaters since I'be been playing online
(have been since the UT2004 demo came out)

As long as the server runs some kinda of anti-cheat things like AntiTCC I
haven't had much problems with them.


"eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org> wrote in message
news:%Ck1d.1306224$y4.229403@news.easynews.com...
> Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard
> some
> guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
> of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
> seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't
> end
> up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
September 13, 2004 9:17:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:26:11 -0230, "Jay Cee" <no@spam.please> wrote:

>i won't buy ut2k4 after i have read and heard so many stories of cheating on
>ut2k3. i find it extremely diffucult to play against cheaters (obviously)
>and it has taken away my enjoyment of the game.
I've played quite a bit, and i've seen little of what I would say is
definately a cheat. I think there's less of it happening than is
generally thought. Heck, I have been accused of cheating, and I'm not
nearly as good as most. Actually I can be pretty good, but only for
20-30 minutes, then the eyes get tired, ect. My kid plays and gets
accused of cheating quite regularly, but he's just better than many
others, and, being young, has the reflex advantage over most people.
I just think that UT, being basically a frag-fest, as opposed to
requiring any tactics or teamwork (when youre playing DM), makes it
easy for people to cry cheat. After all, if there's 20 people playing,
every person has 19 enemies. If one person starts crying cheat, then
it's easy for others to jump on the bandwagon. I laugh when he wins by
1 or 2 and people cry cheat, it just sounds so stupid.
One thing that often gets the biggest gripes, is that when he has the
rocket launcher, he always fires a shot down the hallway he's running.
This way, when he turns a corner, only to be face-to-face with another
player, he's not killing himself because the range is too close. Many
people scream "wallhack", but if you watch him, he does it EVERY time
he runs down a hall, and most of the time nobody is there so it is a
waste of ammo. Same with the shock combo. Some people call this
spamming, I call it suppresive fire.
>
>i read some too the all the 2003 cheats work on 2004.
>
>jay cee
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You should start drinking prune juice and KY jelly cocktails right now,
that will make things a lot smoother.
-Felatio Love
September 14, 2004 1:36:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.games.unreal.tournament.]
Jay Cee enlightened us with:
> i won't buy ut2k4 after i have read and heard so many stories of
> cheating on ut2k3. i find it extremely diffucult to play against
> cheaters (obviously) and it has taken away my enjoyment of the game.

Personally, I never met any cheaters online. I think it depends on
your geographical location.

MeltDown
--
!For all your UT99/2k3/2k4 questions visit UnrealTower's FAQ section:
! http://www.unrealtower.org/faq
!Home of the FAQs for agut and agut2003.
Anonymous
September 16, 2004 12:49:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

Hi,
about which version u are talking about? I believe UTclassic? In 2k4 I yet
found no cheats except that some ppl use key-macros, input-hardware that is
programmable, but thats like saying "u have a ping of 30 and I have a ping
of 200, so you cheat".
Of course, someone like me who spents a bit more money to get dsl-fastpath
has an advantage than somebody who only has a modem, but I wont call this
cheating.

cya
September 16, 2004 7:06:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

yes very corncerned with manta cheats...
Anonymous
September 16, 2004 8:28:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

MeltDown wrote:
> Personally, I never met any cheaters online. I think it depends on
> your geographical location.

Interesting opinion. So in what particular area there is lots of
cheaters? Some country perhaps? That could be banned easily.

I think it depends on age more than location.
September 16, 2004 8:28:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

Peelo enlightened us with:
> Interesting opinion. So in what particular area there is lots of
> cheaters? Some country perhaps? That could be banned easily.

I can only say that in The Netherlands, I have never seen anyone
cheat. Perhaps it's me being naive, but I think there aren't many
cheaters here.

MeltDown
--
!For all your UT99/2k3/2k4 questions visit UnrealTower's FAQ section:
! http://www.unrealtower.org/faq
!Home of the FAQs for agut and agut2003.
Anonymous
September 16, 2004 9:57:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

> I can only say that in The Netherlands, I have never seen anyone
> cheat. Perhaps it's me being naive, but I think there aren't many
> cheaters here.

It probably also helps if you stick to a certain 'niche'. I mostly play
iBR and nwBR and these (at least in europe) seem to be cheater-free. I
saw the model-spawn / invisiblilty thing once when playing 2k3, but
nothing so far in 2k4.

Guys, don't forget to drop by #agut on irc.quakenet.org!

--
IWIK
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 10:36:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
wrote:

>Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
>guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
>of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
>seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
>up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.

I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself. It's
difficult to see behind you in a manta, but I ham constatnly having
others track me as I dodge while they're moving backward, which means
they pretty much have to be using a manta bot. You can also only move
at descrete forward directions in a manta using either just forward or
a combination of forward and strafe, so anyone who is managing to
curve into you without changing the orientation of the manta itself is
almost certainly botting. Half the time when I point out that soemone
is botting, they admit to it, so I think those constitute reliable
critera for detecting them.

I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
percentage to me.

I have found that by jumping toward the manta but to one side as it
comes toward you that you can get it to fly by, but you still have to
kill it because the bot will bring the manta back toward you a lot
faster than a human could. I even had two bot users from the HK clan
orbiting me for some five revolutions because their bots wouldn't let
them go on and play the game.

I've considered writting a bot to detect manta bots or at least to act
as an aimbot specifically against those I know to be botting, but I
haven't had the time, and I haven't seen any references to how they're
written (I'm a programmer).

Onslaught is a great game and I really hope Battle-Zone style games
like it take off (I think it's the most played game of those provided
in 2K4), but Unreal definitely has a problem with bots and hacks.

Lars
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 6:03:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
>wrote:
>
>>Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
>>guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
>>of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
>>seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
>>up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
>
>I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself.

I get flagged sometimes as having a speed hack detected but I most
certainly haven't. I wouldn't want to get labeled as a cheat.


--

Julian Richards
usenet "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse
with people that you would never want in your house.
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 4:57:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
>wrote:
>
>>Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard some
>>guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a bunch
>>of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never really
>>seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't end
>>up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
>
>I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself. It's
>difficult to see behind you in a manta, but I ham constatnly having
>others track me as I dodge while they're moving backward, which means
>they pretty much have to be using a manta bot. You can also only move
>at descrete forward directions in a manta using either just forward or
>a combination of forward and strafe, so anyone who is managing to
>curve into you without changing the orientation of the manta itself is
>almost certainly botting. Half the time when I point out that soemone
>is botting, they admit to it, so I think those constitute reliable
>critera for detecting them.
>
>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
>percentage to me.
>
>I have found that by jumping toward the manta but to one side as it
>comes toward you that you can get it to fly by, but you still have to
>kill it because the bot will bring the manta back toward you a lot
>faster than a human could. I even had two bot users from the HK clan
>orbiting me for some five revolutions because their bots wouldn't let
>them go on and play the game.
>
>I've considered writting a bot to detect manta bots or at least to act
>as an aimbot specifically against those I know to be botting, but I
>haven't had the time, and I haven't seen any references to how they're
>written (I'm a programmer).
>
>Onslaught is a great game and I really hope Battle-Zone style games
>like it take off (I think it's the most played game of those provided
>in 2K4), but Unreal definitely has a problem with bots and hacks.
>
>Lars

I don't know if this constitutes cheats, but I do notice there is a
disparity amongst how many hits it takes to kill some people and the
effectiveness of their weapons on others. I reallly seem to notice
this on demo servers (I tend to jump on demo - torlan servers when I
just want to play one game). I've also noticed that sometimes my
manta feels "pushed" or my crosshairs feel "pushed" thus reducing my
kill ratio. I'm not an excellent player, but I'm definately above
average (80% of the time lead the team in ONS). I can't help but
think when I get on a server and I can't kill anything there is
something amok.
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 3:14:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
>wrote:

>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
>percentage to me.

Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
it.

I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
*know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
(and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.

No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 3:14:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

"Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
news:42uor0hi0umues8l4n6dgj4ajm4brge3of@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
>>wrote:
>
>>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
>>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
>>percentage to me.
>
> Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
> of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
> And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
> is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
> have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
> a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
> it.
>
> I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
> servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
> *know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
> sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
> (and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
> usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
> and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
>
> No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
> people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
> person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
>

I'll agree with you Folk to a certain extent. It's been my experience on the
bot chat boards and online that there is a very quick learning curve on
using a bot. A person figures out very quickly to hotkey the bot off and on
in order to not "stand out" but fall into the top 15-20% of the people on a
server. Very rarely will a botter come in and just wipe the floor. More
often they will push up to the limits of the top players on a given server
to see what they can get away with. It's frustrating as hell to try and
catch them because they will only infrequently use the assistance and only
for a second or two to aid a tough shot. I'm not saying a double-jump off a
wall while getting a double headshot kill on moving targets isn't possible,
but you won't do that all day long no matter how good you are.
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 7:54:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

afaic, the game is built with the ability to cheat by the software
programmers. I bought and played unreal tournament, ut2k3, but have refused
to buy ut2k4 due to rampant cheating.

i have been shot and killed with the lightning gun from around a corner and
had the guy deny he was using aimbot. gimmee a break!

Clyde
"goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote in message
news:6C1vd.1531$cN2.1376@fe03.lga...
>
> "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
> news:42uor0hi0umues8l4n6dgj4ajm4brge3of@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
> >>wrote:
> >
> >>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
> >>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
> >>percentage to me.
> >
> > Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
> > of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
> > And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
> > is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
> > have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
> > a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
> > it.
> >
> > I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
> > servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
> > *know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
> > sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
> > (and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
> > usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
> > and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
> >
> > No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
> > people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
> > person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
> >
>
> I'll agree with you Folk to a certain extent. It's been my experience on
the
> bot chat boards and online that there is a very quick learning curve on
> using a bot. A person figures out very quickly to hotkey the bot off and
on
> in order to not "stand out" but fall into the top 15-20% of the people on
a
> server. Very rarely will a botter come in and just wipe the floor. More
> often they will push up to the limits of the top players on a given server
> to see what they can get away with. It's frustrating as hell to try and
> catch them because they will only infrequently use the assistance and only
> for a second or two to aid a tough shot. I'm not saying a double-jump off
a
> wall while getting a double headshot kill on moving targets isn't
possible,
> but you won't do that all day long no matter how good you are.
>
>
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 5:57:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

FWIW, Helios (one of the bot programmer punks) has the audacity to put
his bot on the net seeking Paypal payments for obtaining a copy
thereof. I don't understand why Atari or Epic does not legally pursue
the punk for destroying potential market as well as for copyright
reasons (altering a program so it works in a way the author did not
intend is a violation of international copyright law).

Unfortunately, cheating is more rampant every day, and although I have
seen overwhelming circumstantial evidence of cheating/botting at
times, it is also possible that people are good players and have a
very stable connection to the server. I'd give twice the price for my
broadband internet connection if it were stable, but the fact is, most
are not. Further, many server providers are trying to save a buck and
are using the lower tier internet backbone providers, which results in
fairly poor response from the servers (this is a US observation, it
may be worse/better in Europe or other locales). I also see
"throttling" with many servers, which is rapid increases/decreases in
data delivery rates. You may have a great ping, but the server plays
like poopoo b/c the data is not delivered smoothly with a consistent
time delay, and the UT engine has an awful time figuring out where to
place moving objects when it's prediction engine starts guessing
incorrectly.

--
Best regards,
Kyle
"Clyde Anderson" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
news:cpi9ek$6g4$1@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net...
| afaic, the game is built with the ability to cheat by the software
| programmers. I bought and played unreal tournament, ut2k3, but have
refused
| to buy ut2k4 due to rampant cheating.
|
| i have been shot and killed with the lightning gun from around a
corner and
| had the guy deny he was using aimbot. gimmee a break!
|
| Clyde
| "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote in message
| news:6C1vd.1531$cN2.1376@fe03.lga...
| >
| > "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
| > news:42uor0hi0umues8l4n6dgj4ajm4brge3of@4ax.com...
| > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen
<spam@someone.else>
| > > wrote:
| > >
| > >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop"
<woetpp@sodfgo.org>
| > >>wrote:
| > >
| > >>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has
someone
| > >>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
| > >>percentage to me.
| > >
| > > Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is
better
| > > of being a bot. Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the
servers.
| > > And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that
there
| > > is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you
to
| > > have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in
flying
| > > a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I
doubt
| > > it.
| > >
| > > I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of
different
| > > servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
| > > *know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm
not
| > > sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my
team
| > > (and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me)
but
| > > usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the
players,
| > > and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
| > >
| > > No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
| > > people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think
that
| > > person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
| > >
| >
| > I'll agree with you Folk to a certain extent. It's been my
experience on
| the
| > bot chat boards and online that there is a very quick learning
curve on
| > using a bot. A person figures out very quickly to hotkey the bot
off and
| on
| > in order to not "stand out" but fall into the top 15-20% of the
people on
| a
| > server. Very rarely will a botter come in and just wipe the floor.
More
| > often they will push up to the limits of the top players on a
given server
| > to see what they can get away with. It's frustrating as hell to
try and
| > catch them because they will only infrequently use the assistance
and only
| > for a second or two to aid a tough shot. I'm not saying a
double-jump off
| a
| > wall while getting a double headshot kill on moving targets isn't
| possible,
| > but you won't do that all day long no matter how good you are.
| >
| >
|
|
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 1:14:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

Hi,

Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in this
regard.

As a relatively good (but by no means excellent) player, I've been
unfairly accused of cheating on two occasions. (Both times playing on
servers with AntiTCC ;)  ... I have never used an aimbot and feel that
anyone who is caught cheating should have their accounts revoked. At
the same time, I think that some people don't want to accept that there
are better players than themselves, and tend to be all-too-quick to
accuse them of cheating.

Admittedly, I've only run across one person that I (along with everyone
else) was _sure_ was using an aimbot -- and the player admitted to it.
This was on a non-stats server without AntiTCC. So, I've simply stopped
playing on servers that don't have AntiTCC (or a similar anti-cheat
mechanism) enabled. I feel that this has greatly reduced my exposure to
cheaters.

Now, with respect to some of your points ...


> 1. Literally pushed a player 6 player lengths with a manta and didn't
> kill them. Had to jump up and pancake him. The player wasn't immune
> either as he had shot at me already.

I have seen this. I suspect it has to do with lag -- not with any form
of cheating.


> 3. Had a player jump out of a raptor, hit the ground, and I proceeded
> to hit him with 4 plasma balls and 3 shock rifle primary hits and
> numerous alt fire with the gun before the player killed me. I had
> full health. Is there a cheat to decrease opponent weapon damage?

Perhaps he had 199 health and full armor? Perhaps he picked up some
health after he fell out of the raptor? It's pretty hard to suspect
cheating based on something like this.


> 4. Sometiems seems to be inconsistencies with how quickly players can
> kill me. Like some have more weapon "power". Is there a cheat to
> increase weapon damage?

Hmm. Again, it's difficult to suspect cheating based on this point
because the player(s) could easily have acquired a "double damage".


> 5. Top Gunned an opponent in a Raptor. In less than 10 seconds, he
> was back in the air and hit me with a missile. This happened a couple
> times. This player was consistently in the Raptor the entire game.

I've done this to people. It works like this: You die, you respawn at
a node with a raptor. Conveniently, due to the 27s respawn rate (or
whatever it is), there's a raptor waiting for you. You get in, and make
it your mission in life to get the guy who just got you ;) 

This is by no means cheating -- the player simply rushed back to finish
you off. I've seen this happen _all the time_. Usually, if it occurs
on-ground, I lay down mines in anticipation of the person's return, and
usually retreat to a manta.


> 6. The tank. Seems that I have to be right on when attacking with
> the tank in close quarters, whereas if I'm close, someone can just be
> remotely close (maybe 1/4 of a turret turn) and frag me.

Hmm. Well, I'm not a great tank-aimer myself, so I can see where you're
coming from. But again, I think it's a matter of perception. I simply
think that there are players who, without cheating, are: better aimers,
better able to take advantage of splash damage (to whittle down your
health), and who make it a purpose of getting 199 health + full armor
before going out "to do battle".


> 7. If I play chicken with a manta, a double jump right/left gets me
> out of the way safely...however, against some players I still get
> killed. Like their Manta has more killing width or something.

Hmm. Perhaps the manta driver accurately predicted the direction that
you were going to double-jump? This happens. Or, perhaps you're
double-jumping too soon or too late? Personally, I find that I almost
never get run over now...



I think that most of your points are a bit too subjective to make a
compelling case. However, as I have seen a player with an aimbot on a
demo server in the past, I can understand your frustration. My solution
to this problem has been to stick to stats-only servers that employ
anti-cheat mechanisms, and from my own experience, this seems to reduce
the incidence of cheating. (I also won't play on servers with mutators
that increase firing rate, damage, etc. I like my games to be
"pure". :) 


regards,
Kris
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 4:04:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

Interesting point. I don't know if these are possible cheats, but
I've noticed some definate inconsistencies...more like what seem to be
defensive cheats....which could be lag, cheats, or otherwise...

1. Literally pushed a player 6 player lengths with a manta and didn't
kill them. Had to jump up and pancake him. The player wasn't immune
either as he had shot at me already.

2. Seemed to feel like the manta was "pushed" off targets and my
crosshairs would jump off targets. Went from top player to mid level
as I couldn't hit squat.

3. Had a player jump out of a raptor, hit the ground, and I proceeded
to hit him with 4 plasma balls and 3 shock rifle primary hits and
numerous alt fire with the gun before the player killed me. I had
full health. Is there a cheat to decrease opponent weapon damage?

4. Sometiems seems to be inconsistencies with how quickly players can
kill me. Like some have more weapon "power". Is there a cheat to
increase weapon damage?

5. Top Gunned an opponent in a Raptor. In less than 10 seconds, he
was back in the air and hit me with a missile. This happened a couple
times. This player was consistently in the Raptor the entire game.
Wasn't that great of a pilot either. This was on Torlan, on a full
server. With the amount of Avrils and players, it is hard to keep a
Raptor consistently. Would there be a spawn cheat where you'd respawn
by an empty vehicle of choice?

6. The tank. Seems that I have to be right on when attacking with
the tank in close quarters, whereas if I'm close, someone can just be
remotely close (maybe 1/4 of a turret turn) and frag me.

7. If I play chicken with a manta, a double jump right/left gets me
out of the way safely...however, against some players I still get
killed. Like their Manta has more killing width or something.

Also, as I stated earlier, I play the demo servers when I want a
"quickie". I seem to notice these "inconsistencies" more on the demo
servers. Would they tend to be infected more? These are all subtle
and could be attributed to glitches in the game I guess. When I first
started playing I'd chalk them up to experience. I take note of who
kills me in ONS. I'm good enough now to know that a double jump left
saves me from Player X's manta, while a double jump can never save me
from Player Y's manta.


On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:57:04 -0500, "Kylesb" <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>FWIW, Helios (one of the bot programmer punks) has the audacity to put
>his bot on the net seeking Paypal payments for obtaining a copy
>thereof. I don't understand why Atari or Epic does not legally pursue
>the punk for destroying potential market as well as for copyright
>reasons (altering a program so it works in a way the author did not
>intend is a violation of international copyright law).
>
>Unfortunately, cheating is more rampant every day, and although I have
>seen overwhelming circumstantial evidence of cheating/botting at
>times, it is also possible that people are good players and have a
>very stable connection to the server. I'd give twice the price for my
>broadband internet connection if it were stable, but the fact is, most
>are not. Further, many server providers are trying to save a buck and
>are using the lower tier internet backbone providers, which results in
>fairly poor response from the servers (this is a US observation, it
>may be worse/better in Europe or other locales). I also see
>"throttling" with many servers, which is rapid increases/decreases in
>data delivery rates. You may have a great ping, but the server plays
>like poopoo b/c the data is not delivered smoothly with a consistent
>time delay, and the UT engine has an awful time figuring out where to
>place moving objects when it's prediction engine starts guessing
>incorrectly.
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 4:04:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"Christoofar" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:iq3rr0dr0qr205n312b2boeovraj241mj7@4ax.com...
| Interesting point. I don't know if these are possible cheats, but
| I've noticed some definate inconsistencies...more like what seem to
be
| defensive cheats....which could be lag, cheats, or otherwise...


<snip>

One "lag" item I see all the time in UT occurs like this: A hallway
or corridor or doorway is not wide enough for two players to cross
paths at that location. Sometimes, a good defensive ploy is simply to
"body-block" the opponent. Yet, so many times, it seems as if the
opposing player runs right thru my player w/o "bumping" or colliding.
This, in my opinion, is lag at work and the game fails to detect the
collision of the players.
--
Best regards,
Kyle
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 12:32:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

Thanks, I too have read the threads on cheating, and they primarily
center around aim bots. I was trying to determine whether there were
more versions of cheats. Your explanations seem plausible, and I had
considered these scenarios. However, when I run into these types of
things they seem to be on one server and occur in bunches. Your
reasoning seems best...play on stats servers with AntiTCC or resign
myself to guessing what the other guy is doing.

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:14:30 -0500, Kris Vorwerk
<nothanks@noonehere.org> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
>interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in this
>regard.
>
>As a relatively good (but by no means excellent) player, I've been
>unfairly accused of cheating on two occasions. (Both times playing on
>servers with AntiTCC ;)  ... I have never used an aimbot and feel that
>anyone who is caught cheating should have their accounts revoked. At
>the same time, I think that some people don't want to accept that there
>are better players than themselves, and tend to be all-too-quick to
>accuse them of cheating.
>
>Admittedly, I've only run across one person that I (along with everyone
>else) was _sure_ was using an aimbot -- and the player admitted to it.
>This was on a non-stats server without AntiTCC. So, I've simply stopped
>playing on servers that don't have AntiTCC (or a similar anti-cheat
>mechanism) enabled. I feel that this has greatly reduced my exposure to
>cheaters.
>
>Now, with respect to some of your points ...
>
>
>> 1. Literally pushed a player 6 player lengths with a manta and didn't
>> kill them. Had to jump up and pancake him. The player wasn't immune
>> either as he had shot at me already.
>
>I have seen this. I suspect it has to do with lag -- not with any form
>of cheating.
>
>
>> 3. Had a player jump out of a raptor, hit the ground, and I proceeded
>> to hit him with 4 plasma balls and 3 shock rifle primary hits and
>> numerous alt fire with the gun before the player killed me. I had
>> full health. Is there a cheat to decrease opponent weapon damage?
>
>Perhaps he had 199 health and full armor? Perhaps he picked up some
>health after he fell out of the raptor? It's pretty hard to suspect
>cheating based on something like this.
>
>
>> 4. Sometiems seems to be inconsistencies with how quickly players can
>> kill me. Like some have more weapon "power". Is there a cheat to
>> increase weapon damage?
>
>Hmm. Again, it's difficult to suspect cheating based on this point
>because the player(s) could easily have acquired a "double damage".
>
>
>> 5. Top Gunned an opponent in a Raptor. In less than 10 seconds, he
>> was back in the air and hit me with a missile. This happened a couple
>> times. This player was consistently in the Raptor the entire game.
>
>I've done this to people. It works like this: You die, you respawn at
>a node with a raptor. Conveniently, due to the 27s respawn rate (or
>whatever it is), there's a raptor waiting for you. You get in, and make
>it your mission in life to get the guy who just got you ;) 
>
>This is by no means cheating -- the player simply rushed back to finish
>you off. I've seen this happen _all the time_. Usually, if it occurs
>on-ground, I lay down mines in anticipation of the person's return, and
>usually retreat to a manta.
>
>
>> 6. The tank. Seems that I have to be right on when attacking with
>> the tank in close quarters, whereas if I'm close, someone can just be
>> remotely close (maybe 1/4 of a turret turn) and frag me.
>
>Hmm. Well, I'm not a great tank-aimer myself, so I can see where you're
>coming from. But again, I think it's a matter of perception. I simply
>think that there are players who, without cheating, are: better aimers,
>better able to take advantage of splash damage (to whittle down your
>health), and who make it a purpose of getting 199 health + full armor
>before going out "to do battle".
>
>
>> 7. If I play chicken with a manta, a double jump right/left gets me
>> out of the way safely...however, against some players I still get
>> killed. Like their Manta has more killing width or something.
>
>Hmm. Perhaps the manta driver accurately predicted the direction that
>you were going to double-jump? This happens. Or, perhaps you're
>double-jumping too soon or too late? Personally, I find that I almost
>never get run over now...
>
>
>
>I think that most of your points are a bit too subjective to make a
>compelling case. However, as I have seen a player with an aimbot on a
>demo server in the past, I can understand your frustration. My solution
>to this problem has been to stick to stats-only servers that employ
>anti-cheat mechanisms, and from my own experience, this seems to reduce
>the incidence of cheating. (I also won't play on servers with mutators
>that increase firing rate, damage, etc. I like my games to be
>"pure". :) 
>
>
>regards,
>Kris
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 12:32:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"Christoofar" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ff2sr01acudj0ua2g0leqalabuobuabkhp@4ax.com...
> Thanks, I too have read the threads on cheating, and they primarily
> center around aim bots. I was trying to determine whether there were
> more versions of cheats. Your explanations seem plausible, and I had
> considered these scenarios. However, when I run into these types of
> things they seem to be on one server and occur in bunches. Your
> reasoning seems best...play on stats servers with AntiTCC or resign
> myself to guessing what the other guy is doing.
>

One other thing you guys are not addressing is the fact that the cheater
boards/sites are actually very busy places. All these people are not there
to chat and tell stories. Cheating is rampant. It's just the cheaters are
becoming very good at hiding the extra help. This is by no means me "crying
wolf" or expressing sour grapes. I don't play hardly at all anymore but I
keep up with the cheater community out of interest.
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 5:36:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:14:19 -0500, Folk <Folk@folk.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:30 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
>>wrote:
>
>>I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
>>using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
>>percentage to me.
>
>Sorry, but this sounds like someone who accuses anyone who is better
>of being a bot.

I'm OK on onslaught servers, but mediocre at DM, generally I'm better
at devising tactics than at mouse aiming. Like I wrote last time, I
only can be certain of manta bots by watching tell tale actions. The
bots tend to allow the player to stop the manta a lot faster than I've
ever managed, to track you down and back over you without ever having
to change the direction it's pointed in, etc. I've also spectated
players who could drive mantas up steep inclines, whereas the manta
will only go nose into the mountain side and stop when I try,
regardless of what angle of approach I use. I see that sort of thing,
like I say, on about a third of the games.

Unless you're so good that you can back over people behind you while
shooting the node, I'll have to disregard your opinion.

>Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.

You understood that to be that one in three servers I play on I seem
to notice the actions characteristic of a bot, not that I figure one
in three people is using a bot, right?

>And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
>is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
>have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
>a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
>it.

I've played with people who claim to be using manta bots, and given
their amazing abilities I didn't doubt them. I wrote an auto-aim
routing into the old Q2 code when they released it to play around with
the vector math. They're easy to code and I would expect a manta bot
to be still easier to produce.

I've also played against players who would to the flying levi trick
all of the time, and since they fixed that, some who can get the
hellbender to fly (the "flying hb hack"). Cheating is definitely
possible.

>I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
>servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
>*know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
>sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
>(and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
>usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
>and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
>
>No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
>people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
>person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.

I play most nights as well (Darwin_Saves!), and I still seem to be
able to detect manta bots. Again, watch for the tell-tale backing
over you ploy. I've backed over a few people accidentially, but never
tracked someone up a hill behind me and run them over while shooting
the node. If someone does that to you, especially a couple of times
in a row, you can feel assured you've spotted a manta bot there.
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 2:58:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:07:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:

> I don't play hardly at all anymore but I keep up with the cheater community out of interest.

That just seems..... bizarre.
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 3:08:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:36:35 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
wrote:


>Unless you're so good that you can back over people behind you while
>shooting the node, I'll have to disregard your opinion.

Do you drive your Manta in first person or third person view? If you
use third person, it's trivial to back over people while shooting,
since you now have a 360 view of things.

>>Yes, bots do exist but not on 33% of the servers.
>
>You understood that to be that one in three servers I play on I seem
>to notice the actions characteristic of a bot, not that I figure one
>in three people is using a bot, right?

That's why I said "33% of the servers" rather than "33% of the
players".

>>And although I don't have a clue, I would doubt seriously that there
>>is any sort of "manta bot", as you say. An aimbot can allow you to
>>have perfect aim, but I doubt there is a bot that can assist in flying
>>a manta. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I doubt
>>it.
>
>I've played with people who claim to be using manta bots, and given
>their amazing abilities I didn't doubt them. I wrote an auto-aim
>routing into the old Q2 code when they released it to play around with
>the vector math. They're easy to code and I would expect a manta bot
>to be still easier to produce.

Although people tried to write aimbot code for alt-flak, it was never
really successful due to the fact that the projectile follows an arc.
It was just too difficult to do, so by and large, aimbots are for
hitscan weapons. So how could one write a cheat for a vehicle which
doesn't follow a pre-determined path?

>I've also played against players who would to the flying levi trick
>all of the time, and since they fixed that, some who can get the
>hellbender to fly (the "flying hb hack"). Cheating is definitely
>possible.

You're confusing exploits with cheats. The flying levi was fixed in
the first patch.

>>I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
>>servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
>>*know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
>>sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
>>(and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
>>usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
>>and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
>>
>>No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
>>people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
>>person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
>
>I play most nights as well (Darwin_Saves!), and I still seem to be
>able to detect manta bots. Again, watch for the tell-tale backing
>over you ploy. I've backed over a few people accidentially, but never
>tracked someone up a hill behind me and run them over while shooting
>the node. If someone does that to you, especially a couple of times
>in a row, you can feel assured you've spotted a manta bot there.

Put your perspective into third-person view and see how trivially easy
it is to do what you're describing.
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 9:02:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:08:50 -0500, Folk <Folk@folk.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:36:35 -0700, Lars Wilsen <spam@someone.else>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Unless you're so good that you can back over people behind you while
>>shooting the node, I'll have to disregard your opinion.
>
>Do you drive your Manta in first person or third person view? If you
>use third person, it's trivial to back over people while shooting,
>since you now have a 360 view of things.


Not nearly so easy as you think. I usually play in third person, and
even when you zoom way out, you have to be looking down to see far
behind you. If you zoom in, you can't see far at all, regardless of
where you're looking. The people I take to be using bots have backed
over me, for instance, while I'm standing at the the tree stand above
the first node on Torlan (iun the trees), while they are starting at
the node and shooting it all the while.

There's also the matter of how quickly they can stop and turn around,
a tenth the distance it seems to take me going at the same speed.

>Although people tried to write aimbot code for alt-flak, it was never
>really successful due to the fact that the projectile follows an arc.
>It was just too difficult to do, so by and large, aimbots are for
>hitscan weapons. So how could one write a cheat for a vehicle which
>doesn't follow a pre-determined path?

Actually, it would be much easier when you are in continual control of
the object/vehicle, rather than trying to predict where the player
will be when the missile arrives and hope his velocity doesn't change.
The manta bot would only have to send every other key event to guide
the vehicle all the way to the target, continually updating the
projected path with each cycle (similar to the way the aimbot directs
the players aim for him). That was why I was thinking it would be
much easier to do. To predict where the projectile is going to land
and when it will intercept the enemy is difficult compared to simply
redirecting the vehicle with every from to target the enemy's current
position. I've also noted predictive aiming - aiming at where I will
be when the vehicle arrives rather than where I am now, but that is
also the same vector equations as firing a projectile, performed every
cycle, so it also isn't a difficult bit of programming.

>>I've also played against players who would to the flying levi trick
>>all of the time, and since they fixed that, some who can get the
>>hellbender to fly (the "flying hb hack"). Cheating is definitely
>>possible.
>
>You're confusing exploits with cheats. The flying levi was fixed in
>the first patch.

Yes, "since they fixed that" was how I already said that the levi bug
was fixed, and I consider a flying hellbender that can be hacked to
fly to be a cheat, not an "exploit". I haven't had to do that to win.
I also wish the game would decrement points for spawn camping. A lot
of the cruddier players like to take a tank near a node and prevent
the other team from even playing. If they aren't shooting a player
with weapons or vulnerable node, and if they have to use an "exploit"
to win, then they should find a game that they're able to play
successfully and play that, instead of preventing me from playing this
game.

>>>I play ONS virtually every night on a hefty assortment of different
>>>servers, and I've been playing since the release of the demo. I
>>>*know* I've seen two botters. I may have seen another, but I'm not
>>>sure. I guess I might have missed one or two that were on my team
>>>(and I couldn't observe them since they weren't shooting at me) but
>>>usually an obvious bot will raise a hue and cry amongst the players,
>>>and again, I've only seen that happen a couple of times.
>>>
>>>No matter what your skill level, you will sometimes play against
>>>people 10 times better than you. It's often easier to think that
>>>person is a bot than to admit you're getting owned so badly.
>>
>>I play most nights as well (Darwin_Saves!), and I still seem to be
>>able to detect manta bots. Again, watch for the tell-tale backing
>>over you ploy. I've backed over a few people accidentially, but never
>>tracked someone up a hill behind me and run them over while shooting
>>the node. If someone does that to you, especially a couple of times
>>in a row, you can feel assured you've spotted a manta bot there.
>
>Put your perspective into third-person view and see how trivially easy
>it is to do what you're describing.

Try spectating once in a while. Again, people have said they're using
a manta bot, I've been tracked and backed over from far to great a
distance not to have had a bot involved, and you can't view far behind
you when also shooting at a node. And again, I've spectated people
climbing the hills around the center node in Arctic Stronghold (the
side cliffs - all the way to the top) and watched people shooting out
the side and front of the manta in successive shots. There is no
question about whether a bot is in use, I was only pointing out that
Epic should do more to stop it or at least to make it difficult.
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 10:14:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
news:2t6ur094n3mnasmj9vso5pkasqbfn3l6sf@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:07:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:
>
>> I don't play hardly at all anymore but I keep up with the cheater
>> community out of interest.
>
> That just seems..... bizarre.
>

I understand your reluctance Folk, but you know me as a member here for a
while. At first UT was a lot of fun for me, but the game itself began to
bore me. I have always professed to be no better a player than middle-ground
(on a good day). If the announcer ever said "Mediocre kill!!" that'd be me.
I fiddled with BR, CTF, and team based games but got tired of bringing the
teams down. Still, the game interested me so I started delving into the
physics of the engine itself. (Skinning and mapping didn't appeal. Maybe too
visceral? I prefer more mathematical pursuits.) This led to an interest into
how the bots beat the security and how they worked. Even now, it's fun to
follow the cheat/anti-cheat community. It's the game within the game. Now,
I'm not going to go high and mighty and say I've never used a cheat. I've
used them all at one point or another, just not online. I have a second rig
just to play with them on. I've no interest in cheating in a game online. I
mean, what's the point? Remember all the fragfests? The name at the bottom
of almost all of them was {AGUT}goPostal. Still you guys tolerated it and we
had a good time. That's what it's all about. My interest in cheating is
separate from my interest in the game.

All that being said, I can tell you that cheating is definitely rampant. You
guys should see what's available among private channels. The cheaters are
becoming very sophisticated and savvy about usage. It's not the auto-fire
trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier cheats
wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you behind view,
and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin to aim at you.
They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you NOT be interested
in how something like that works?

I've always respected your point of view, and nearly always agreed with you
so it was important for me to clarify my statement.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 2:48:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

goPostal wrote:
>
> "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
> news:2t6ur094n3mnasmj9vso5pkasqbfn3l6sf@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:07:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't play hardly at all anymore but I keep up with the cheater
> >> community out of interest.
> >
> > That just seems..... bizarre.
> >
>
> I understand your reluctance Folk, but you know me as a member here for a
> while. At first UT was a lot of fun for me, but the game itself began to
> bore me. I have always professed to be no better a player than middle-ground
> (on a good day). If the announcer ever said "Mediocre kill!!" that'd be me.
> I fiddled with BR, CTF, and team based games but got tired of bringing the
> teams down. Still, the game interested me so I started delving into the
> physics of the engine itself. (Skinning and mapping didn't appeal. Maybe too
> visceral? I prefer more mathematical pursuits.) This led to an interest into
> how the bots beat the security and how they worked. Even now, it's fun to
> follow the cheat/anti-cheat community. It's the game within the game. Now,
> I'm not going to go high and mighty and say I've never used a cheat. I've
> used them all at one point or another, just not online. I have a second rig
> just to play with them on. I've no interest in cheating in a game online. I
> mean, what's the point? Remember all the fragfests? The name at the bottom
> of almost all of them was {AGUT}goPostal. Still you guys tolerated it and we
> had a good time. That's what it's all about. My interest in cheating is
> separate from my interest in the game.
>
> All that being said, I can tell you that cheating is definitely rampant. You
> guys should see what's available among private channels. The cheaters are
> becoming very sophisticated and savvy about usage. It's not the auto-fire
> trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier cheats
> wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you behind view,
> and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin to aim at you.
> They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you NOT be interested
> in how something like that works?
>
> I've always respected your point of view, and nearly always agreed with you
> so it was important for me to clarify my statement.

Given your knowledge, I would be really curious to hear your views on
the state of anti cheating, now, and going forward competing against the
cheat developers. I mean, is this just something that online players
are going to have to live with?

Lisa
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 3:21:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

"Lars Wilsen" <spam@someone.else> skrev i en meddelelse
news:iclkr01i1bio883kid1umeo424n1jbt7eq@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:17:47 GMT, "eiurgoleiop" <woetpp@sodfgo.org>
> wrote:
>
> >Just wondering how much known cheating is going on out there? I heard
some
> >guy talking about his 'manta bot' the other day after running over a
bunch
> >of people. Wasn't sure if he was just kidding or what. I've never
really
> >seen anything conclusive, but was just wondering. I hope UT2k4 doesn't
end
> >up like counter strike or halo with all the cheating.
>
> I tend to think there is a lot of cheating going on, myself. It's
> difficult to see behind you in a manta, but I ham constatnly having
> others track me as I dodge while they're moving backward, which means
> they pretty much have to be using a manta bot. You can also only move
> at descrete forward directions in a manta using either just forward or
> a combination of forward and strafe, so anyone who is managing to
> curve into you without changing the orientation of the manta itself is
> almost certainly botting. Half the time when I point out that soemone
> is botting, they admit to it, so I think those constitute reliable
> critera for detecting them.
>
> I think about a third of the servers I play on online has someone
> using a bot or hack of some sort in use, which seems like a very
> percentage to me.
>
> I have found that by jumping toward the manta but to one side as it
> comes toward you that you can get it to fly by, but you still have to
> kill it because the bot will bring the manta back toward you a lot
> faster than a human could. I even had two bot users from the HK clan
> orbiting me for some five revolutions because their bots wouldn't let
> them go on and play the game.
>
> I've considered writting a bot to detect manta bots or at least to act
> as an aimbot specifically against those I know to be botting, but I
> haven't had the time, and I haven't seen any references to how they're
> written (I'm a programmer).
>
> Onslaught is a great game and I really hope Battle-Zone style games
> like it take off (I think it's the most played game of those provided
> in 2K4), but Unreal definitely has a problem with bots and hacks.
>
> Lars

When using outside view when flying the manta it is possible to do vehicle
manslaughter while pounding the node. However, I will agree that most of the
time it is at least 50 pct luck.... for me at least.
I never really thought of a manta bot, but the movements you descripe are
way too familiar. I have practiced a lot trying to figure out how the he..
they make such tight turns and moves, all in vain.
Couldn't agree more, cheats are so bad for the gaming experience... But will
there ever be a cheat-free game?

Brgds, PyroStorm_DK
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 9:32:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"Lisa Horton" <Lisa091704@lisahorton.net> wrote in message
news:41BFEC4B.1F9B504E@lisahorton.net...
> Given your knowledge, I would be really curious to hear your views on
> the state of anti cheating, now, and going forward competing against the
> cheat developers. I mean, is this just something that online players
> are going to have to live with?
>
> Lisa

Honestly Lisa, and this is strictly my own opinion here, cheating cannot be
stopped completely. Among online gaming UT has one of the more zealous
anti-cheat communities but they can't really stem the tide. The game itself
has a large portion of blame. The design was such that cheats were actually
built into the game (remember auto-aim in the setup?) and enabling Loque to
be in essence an aimbot on godlike setting. Once anyone could see it was
possible the next logical step was "Can I do that?"

Still, it's incredibly hard to build a fast-paced game that is also secure.
If you read about some of the better anti-cheat add-ons that are available
one of the chief problems is lag. Also, and I never cease to be amazed at
this, some of the anti-cheats can easily make changes to your .ini files
without your consent. Not a big deal you think? With a little tweaking I was
able to use that as a gateway on my LAN to get into my main computer's hard
drive.

Bottom line (still opinion here) cheating is here to stay. You can't patch
it away because it's part and parcel of the game design. I'll be interested
in seeing if Epic does any changes in the next game to disallow cheating in
the form it has now. Personally I'd say not and here's why: Cheaters buy
game copies. Lots of them. They have a very dedicated community that is
quite robust. They enjoy the challenge. Way more so than the people trying
to block them.
December 15, 2004 2:20:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament,alt.games.unreal.tournament2003 (More info?)

Lars Wilsen wrote:

> Try spectating once in a while. Again, people have said they're using
> a manta bot, I've been tracked and backed over from far to great a
> distance not to have had a bot involved, and you can't view far behind
> you when also shooting at a node. And again, I've spectated people
> climbing the hills around the center node in Arctic Stronghold (the
> side cliffs - all the way to the top) and watched people shooting out
> the side and front of the manta in successive shots. There is no
> question about whether a bot is in use, I was only pointing out that
> Epic should do more to stop it or at least to make it difficult.

Nothing of what you say has convinced me that a 'Manta bot' exists.
I've played ONS since it first appeared, virtually every night, and
can't say I've ever suspected a Manta pilot of cheating.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 3:09:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:


>I've always respected your point of view, and nearly always agreed with you
>so it was important for me to clarify my statement.
>

It still seems bizarre gP, but your explanation makes it seem less so.
<G>
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 11:22:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:

> It's not the
> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
> NOT be interested in how something like that works?

I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.

--
{AGUT}DeadMan
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 11:22:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"{AGUT}DeadMan" <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:p an.2004.12.16.01.22.13.186050@hotmail.com...
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
>
>> It's not the
>> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
>> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
>> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
>> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
>> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
>
> I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
> concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
> have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
> interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
> look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
>
> --
> {AGUT}DeadMan
>

No prob DeadMan. I stay pretty active on the cheater boards and I'd be more
than happy to reference you to any information you might want to see. I
think it's narrow-minded to think that just because someone has interest
that they are automatically cheating. You don't have to defend jack to us. I
am interested (like you, and I'll wager quite a few others here) in how
these things work. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you are
automatically a hunter, you know?
Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :)  I just think that if more
people were educated about how these things work, they'd be a hell of a lot
more aware as to what's really going on. Nothing helps solve a problem quite
like shining a bright light on it.
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 3:15:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

When I started this thread, what I witness has been more akin to what
you're describing below. Extra health, extra damage, ability to
"dodge" shots. I've only seen one aimbot and that happened last week.
The regularity of players who aren't that good, but seem to just have
a "little extra" is more common. So much so, that it can't be
attributed to skill disparity. When the inconsistencies happen once,
OK, I can take that, but over the course of 3 games? Can't be
coincidence.

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:22:14 -0500, {AGUT}DeadMan
<oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
>
>> It's not the
>> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
>> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
>> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
>> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
>> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
>
>I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
>concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
>have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
>interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
>look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 3:15:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:15:58 GMT, Christoofar <nospam@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>When I started this thread, what I witness has been more akin to what
>you're describing below. Extra health, extra damage, ability to
>"dodge" shots.

Someone with more knowledge on this subject is welcome to chime in
with a correction, but as far as I know, there are no UT related
cheats that add health, make one invincible or assist with player
movement. Most cheats boil down to aiming and radar.

So if someone is out-maneuvering you, they are simply better at
movement. If you think you're hitting someone and they don't seem to
be taking damage, remember that this is an internet based game with
the client doing a lot of predicting about what it *thinks* has
happened. Between lost packets and general lag, you see a lot of
stupid stuff while playing online that has absolutely nothing to do
with cheats.

And the more you "study" cheating, the more you are likely to *think*
you see cheaters. If you spend all your time reading about the
supernatural, you're a hell of a lot more likely to think you've seen
a ghost.
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 3:24:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

I would not want to download any cheat programs, however I would like
to know where the websites are so I can see the variety of
availability to confirm my suspicions.

Again, I notice these things most rampant on the demo servers, and
there is a dramatic swing when the players I suspect of having an
"edge" come in.

For instance, two days ago, a player came in and was racking up frags.
I got into several one on ones with this guy. I was nailing him 3 to
1, but he won every one...these were pretty drawn out encounters, so I
know he wasn't that good or he would have eaten my lunch earlier in
the battle. The only way to get him was with a instant kill, like a
point blank flak hit or crushing in a manta. This was on Primeaval
where there isn't much armor. It was like he had a regen program or
something. Also, his manta was extremely agile. I noticed it was
always tilted towards me when I got hit. It was an odd look for the
manta. No matter which way I jumped it was tilted that way. Nobody
can be that lucky to anticipate moves EVERY time and react that way
AND have the mobility of the manta to make the kill. Oh, and was
able to dodge AVRILS and escape them with ease. Nuff said.

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:10:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:

>
>"{AGUT}DeadMan" <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:p an.2004.12.16.01.22.13.186050@hotmail.com...
>> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
>>
>>> It's not the
>>> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
>>> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
>>> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
>>> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
>>> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
>>
>> I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
>> concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
>> have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
>> interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
>> look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
>>
>> --
>> {AGUT}DeadMan
>>
>
>No prob DeadMan. I stay pretty active on the cheater boards and I'd be more
>than happy to reference you to any information you might want to see. I
>think it's narrow-minded to think that just because someone has interest
>that they are automatically cheating. You don't have to defend jack to us. I
>am interested (like you, and I'll wager quite a few others here) in how
>these things work. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you are
>automatically a hunter, you know?
>Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
>on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
>cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
>of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
>could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :)  I just think that if more
>people were educated about how these things work, they'd be a hell of a lot
>more aware as to what's really going on. Nothing helps solve a problem quite
>like shining a bright light on it.
>
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 4:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:10:42 -0800, "goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote:

>
>"{AGUT}DeadMan" <oldman1961@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:p an.2004.12.16.01.22.13.186050@hotmail.com...
>> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:14:17 -0800, goPostal wrote:
>>
>>> It's not the
>>> auto-fire trigger bots from two years ago now. Most of the bottom tier
>>> cheats wall-hack, radar with health/weapon/ammo for everyone, give you
>>> behind view, and even tell you when someone can see you and if they begin
>>> to aim at you. They only get more sophisticated from there. How can you
>>> NOT be interested in how something like that works?
>>
>> I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your thoughts, in depth,
>> concerning the current state of the cheat/ anti-cheat situation if you
>> have the time. I've not made a study of the subject and am in no way
>> interested in using such a method, but would like to be aware of things to
>> look for. Thanks and good to see you post again.
>>
>> --
>> {AGUT}DeadMan
>>
>
>No prob DeadMan. I stay pretty active on the cheater boards and I'd be more
>than happy to reference you to any information you might want to see. I
>think it's narrow-minded to think that just because someone has interest
>that they are automatically cheating. You don't have to defend jack to us. I
>am interested (like you, and I'll wager quite a few others here) in how
>these things work. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you are
>automatically a hunter, you know?
>Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
>on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
>cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
>of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
>could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :)  I just think that if more
>people were educated about how these things work, they'd be a hell of a lot
>more aware as to what's really going on. Nothing helps solve a problem quite
>like shining a bright light on it.

I just started reading the group, but I'm not surprised about you
being crucified. I wonder if the people who complain loudest about
the absurdity of others cheating aren't using it for a smoke cover tor
their own bot usage.

I was wondering about having a way to detect if I was aiming at
someone - frequently I've goten nailed a dozen times by someone and
when I finaly figure out his roost, he leaves the second I get him
targeted. That always seemed like an amazing coincidence to me.
That't gratifying to know that at least in some of those cases I was
being cheated on and not just being unlucky.

I definitely admit to stinking, at least at DM, so there is no reason
for me to complain about cheating as an ego defense when I openly
admit to being mediocre as a player. In addition to the cheats
Christoofar already posted, all of which I have also noticed, I was
wondering if there were cheats for these:

o Quad damage at all times - I have played a number of times where I
would still take 6 avrils to kill a hellbender, but every time I got
in one I could be killed in a single missle, and even with only half a
dozen shots from a chaingun. On one server, the map had only one quad
and we controlled the node. In fact, during one of the
single-avril-shot deaths I had the quad powerup.

o Making the tank shot accurate. When I shoot the tank, the random
spread is less gaussian and more first derivitive of a gaussian - the
shots are never on target, and generally roam around an angle-offset
from the target center. However, it seems like just about everyone
who likes to get into the tanks can shoot me dead on from the haze
limit with a single shot. I don't think I've ever killed anyone
through an on-target shot from the tank, only ever through splash
damage. Is there a cheat to make the tank accurate?

o Having weapons you shouldn't have. I've played with people who had
spider mines spread around their own base on torlan who were in the
process of trying to get back their first node. They shouldn't have
had any place to get spider mine, except to go to the first node, get
them without being shot at the enemy node, then return to spread them
around. Is there a hack to use the give-all cheats in multiplayer
games?

Which are the more fruitful cheater forums? I would love to take a
look myself and read about what they're doing.

Thanks in advance,

Lars
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 7:40:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
news:3n46s09embduvjavs1tphdb91b5kblq2pf@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:15:58 GMT, Christoofar <nospam@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>When I started this thread, what I witness has been more akin to what
>>you're describing below. Extra health, extra damage, ability to
>>"dodge" shots.
>
> Someone with more knowledge on this subject is welcome to chime in
> with a correction, but as far as I know, there are no UT related
> cheats that add health, make one invincible or assist with player
> movement. Most cheats boil down to aiming and radar.
>

Fok is pretty much right here. Almost all cheats are client-based. The ones
that alter the server are beaten almost as quickly as they come out because
the person running the server will notice something amiss (or should:) 
There was a really good invisi cheat that made the rounds, along with a
god-mode one but they've been fixed. Occasionally you'll see the god one pop
up, but it's on servers not running semi-current anti-cheat. My own opinion
on movement is that it has much more to do with external client-side
assistance (mostly macros) when you see way above average movement skills.
Not to mention lag wreaks hell on movement presentation.

> So if someone is out-maneuvering you, they are simply better at
> movement. If you think you're hitting someone and they don't seem to
> be taking damage, remember that this is an internet based game with
> the client doing a lot of predicting about what it *thinks* has
> happened. Between lost packets and general lag, you see a lot of
> stupid stuff while playing online that has absolutely nothing to do
> with cheats.
>
> And the more you "study" cheating, the more you are likely to *think*
> you see cheaters. If you spend all your time reading about the
> supernatural, you're a hell of a lot more likely to think you've seen
> a ghost.
>

So very true. Once I started comparing ping and packet loss with people I
presumed were cheating, I was surprised at how much lag presented itself as
cheating.
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 10:27:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

Hi,

Just a few minor points ...


> o Quad damage at all times - I have played a number of times where I
> would still take 6 avrils to kill a hellbender, but every time I got
> in one I could be killed in a single missle, and even with only half a

Just because the Hellbender takes 600 damage doesn't mean that you will
survive that long. If the enemy shoots directly at you (seated in the
vehicle), your own health could well be depleted before the Hellbender's
armor.


> spread is less gaussian and more first derivitive of a gaussian - the

I'm not sure how damage can be correlated to the 1st derivative of a
Gaussian function. (The first derivative is positive on the left of the
y axis and it goes negative on the right ... So, do you mean to say that
you find tank shots to be _giving_ health back to the players? I'm not
sure how else to define negative damage :) 



> around. Is there a hack to use the give-all cheats in multiplayer
> games?

This seems very dubious to me. In the situation that you've described
(in Torlan, for example), people can just rush to _your_ first node,
grab some spider mines, and high-tail it back to their base without
encountering much confrontation.


Kris
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 10:46:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:27:46 -0500, Kris Vorwerk
<nothanks@noonehere.org> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Just a few minor points ...
>
>
>> o Quad damage at all times - I have played a number of times where I
>> would still take 6 avrils to kill a hellbender, but every time I got
>> in one I could be killed in a single missle, and even with only half a
>
>Just because the Hellbender takes 600 damage doesn't mean that you will
>survive that long. If the enemy shoots directly at you (seated in the
>vehicle), your own health could well be depleted before the Hellbender's
>armor.

I had full heath, and the Hellbender was initially undepleted. The
hellbender blew up (had its damange points depleted) both by the avril
and by the few chaingun shots.

>> spread is less gaussian and more first derivitive of a gaussian - the
>
>I'm not sure how damage can be correlated to the 1st derivative of a
>Gaussian function. (The first derivative is positive on the left of the
>y axis and it goes negative on the right ... So, do you mean to say that
>you find tank shots to be _giving_ health back to the players? I'm not
>sure how else to define negative damage :) 

Areally, that is in 2 dimensions, the Gaussian curve has a zero at the
center, climbs to a maximum magnitude (vectored away from the center)
some distance away, then falls back to zero at large distances.

At least when I shoot the tank, it doesn't use a Gaussian distribution
with the majority of the shots at or near the center, but rather tends
to hit its highest probability at a distance from the target center.
I meant to say that for me, hitting the point I have the tank tageted
on is very rare, while hitting a point to one side (above, below, left
right) of the target and killing with splash damage is the norm. A
few players seem to be able to hit me dead on from any distance -
rendering useless the defensive tactics I use on other players.

Can you answer how those players are managing to consistantly get
better performance than me? Is there a "don't distribute tank shots"
check button I've missed somewhere?


>> around. Is there a hack to use the give-all cheats in multiplayer
>> games?
>
>This seems very dubious to me. In the situation that you've described
>(in Torlan, for example), people can just rush to _your_ first node,
>grab some spider mines, and high-tail it back to their base without
>encountering much confrontation.

Well, I asked him where he was getting them, and his answer was that
he wasn't sure, he just ran over some weapons lockers and wound up
with them. I saw him throwing them once while I was attacking their
core and there was no manta around him - although it may have been
taken by a player who knew what he was doing. I find it harder to
believe that someone would take the manta to our first node, pick them
up and go back to core with them. Seems like a waste of time seing as
how most people attacking the core on that map use mantas.

For me, it seems unusual for someone to provide explanations that are
even more absurd than just a cheating explanation. It tends to make
me question why you would be working so hard (and poorly) to dusuade
me from questioning about cheats.

Lars
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 5:12:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"goPostal" <none@this.time> wrote in message
news:o 4Lwd.1644$6y5.1188@fe03.lga...
|
| "Folk" <Folk@folk.com> wrote in message
| news:3n46s09embduvjavs1tphdb91b5kblq2pf@4ax.com...
| > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:15:58 GMT, Christoofar <nospam@hotmail.com>
| > wrote:
| >

|
| Fok is pretty much right here. Almost all cheats are client-based.
The ones
| that alter the server are beaten almost as quickly as they come out
because
| the person running the server will notice something amiss (or
should:) 
| There was a really good invisi cheat that made the rounds, along
with a
| god-mode one but they've been fixed. Occasionally you'll see the god
one pop
| up, but it's on servers not running semi-current anti-cheat. My own
opinion
| on movement is that it has much more to do with external client-side
| assistance (mostly macros) when you see way above average movement
skills.
| Not to mention lag wreaks hell on movement presentation.


FWIW, I won't reveal how it's done, but a server admin can setup UT to
give "those in the know" a speed hack, or the ability to move faster
than other players. There is no way of detecting this either. How do
I know this? One of the server rental company techs told me of the
"setup" to achieve this functionality. (I've been saddled with server
admin responsibility for quite some time with my UT clan.) There may
be other "holes" or "unfixed bugs" that persist even in the latest
patched version of UT or UT2kx. As a person who enjoys competition,
I simply cannot comprehend the joy in cheating, but maybe that's
because I'm much older, and values are simply different now with some
younger folks. Or, maybe it's because my Mother thumped me everytime
I did something that was not honest or forthright (we ARE a product of
our environment, aren't we? lol).

As to inexplicable player movements, I do think lag and the prediction
aspect of the UT engines will make some players or maybe even vehicles
look odd, yet the ability of laggy players to shoot you may still be
very good. This is, perhaps, because you are not laggy to them.
I've had people tell me, at times, I was very hard to shoot, but I
think mostly it's because I don't stand still much. When my
connection is laggy, I usually have a more difficult time hitting
targets, though I've seen the rare occasion where my ping was high,
yet stable, and I was able to hit a lot of targets.

As to investigating cheats on the internet, I have perused such
websites on numerous occasions looking for information on how the
cheats work, where the come from, and the basics of their use. As a
server admin, such info is necessary to combat the cheating community.
I personally believe there are many more cheaters than most would
imagine. One of the best anti-cheat tools still around for UT is the
antishockho mod that logs player keybinds. It's amazing to see what
some players have setup for their keybinds.

Just my 2 cents worth on the cheating topic.
--
Best regards,
Kyle
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 1:56:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

Hi,


> Can you answer how those players are managing to consistantly get
> better performance than me?

No offense, but perhaps you're just not as good as them? I mean, I get
killed all the time during on-line play -- yet I would hesitate, based
on the evidence of someone falling out of a Raptor, acquiring a set of
mines, killing me in a Hellbender, or shooting me with a tank, to draw
any conclusions whatsoever about the presence of cheating in a match.


> For me, it seems unusual for someone to provide explanations that are
> even more absurd than just a cheating explanation. It tends to make
> me question why you would be working so hard (and poorly) to dusuade
> me from questioning about cheats.

I'm not attempting to dissuade you from questioning cheating -- in fact,
I find this discussion quite interesting. However, I _am_ calling into
question your evidence. I've found your arguments to be highly
subjective and very debatable; i.e., they all revolve around how another
player bested you under rather unclear circumstances. You haven't
succeeded in convincing me that the incidence of cheating is as
prevalent as you suspect.

A far more convincing argument would call into question the
effectiveness of current anti-cheat mechanisms. One of the things that
I'm wondering (but don't know), for example, is whether or not mods like
AntiTCC are effective. Based on my own experiences -- and the premise
for my retorts in this forum -- is that the occurrence of cheating seems
to be very close to zero on servers that run this mod.

I don't support cheating, and feel that cheaters' accounts should be
permanently CD-key banned -- it diminishes the game for all of us. It's
disheartening to think, though, that some people are so pessimistic of
their own capabilities that they assume that superior players cheat.


regards,
Kris
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 2:34:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

goPostal wrote:
>
> "Lisa Horton" <Lisa091704@lisahorton.net> wrote in message
> news:41BFEC4B.1F9B504E@lisahorton.net...
> > Given your knowledge, I would be really curious to hear your views on
> > the state of anti cheating, now, and going forward competing against the
> > cheat developers. I mean, is this just something that online players
> > are going to have to live with?
> >
> > Lisa
>
> Honestly Lisa, and this is strictly my own opinion here, cheating cannot be
> stopped completely. Among online gaming UT has one of the more zealous
> anti-cheat communities but they can't really stem the tide. The game itself
> has a large portion of blame. The design was such that cheats were actually
> built into the game (remember auto-aim in the setup?) and enabling Loque to
> be in essence an aimbot on godlike setting. Once anyone could see it was
> possible the next logical step was "Can I do that?"
>
> Still, it's incredibly hard to build a fast-paced game that is also secure.
> If you read about some of the better anti-cheat add-ons that are available
> one of the chief problems is lag. Also, and I never cease to be amazed at
> this, some of the anti-cheats can easily make changes to your .ini files
> without your consent. Not a big deal you think? With a little tweaking I was
> able to use that as a gateway on my LAN to get into my main computer's hard
> drive.
>
> Bottom line (still opinion here) cheating is here to stay. You can't patch
> it away because it's part and parcel of the game design. I'll be interested
> in seeing if Epic does any changes in the next game to disallow cheating in
> the form it has now. Personally I'd say not and here's why: Cheaters buy
> game copies. Lots of them. They have a very dedicated community that is
> quite robust. They enjoy the challenge. Way more so than the people trying
> to block them.

Thanks for the response. Too bad they couldn't divide servers into
"clean" and "anything goes".

But it does seem clear that as long as there are players, some will want
to cheat.

Lisa
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 6:36:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:56:29 -0500, Kris Vorwerk
<nothanks@noonehere.org> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>
>> Can you answer how those players are managing to consistantly get
>> better performance than me?
>
>No offense, but perhaps you're just not as good as them? I mean, I get
>killed all the time during on-line play -- yet I would hesitate, based
>on the evidence of someone falling out of a Raptor, acquiring a set of
>mines, killing me in a Hellbender, or shooting me with a tank, to draw
>any conclusions whatsoever about the presence of cheating in a match.

No offense, but is that supposed to be an argument? Are you certain
you've tried to follow the thread? There's a random spread in the
tank firing - you place the crosshair directly on a target and, no
matter how good you are, you practically never hit that point.
Anything other than an explanation of how some players manage hit the
center of the crosshair every time, such as your last post, is
unresponsive. That doesn't require being a better player not to have,
it's an unavoidable (at least if you aren't botting) part of the game.

I wasn't the one who posted about falling out of a raptor and
surviving. On maps where there are health kegs and armor I tend to
pick them up and frequently survive jumping from raptors when I have
them. Even if they're botting to achieve the effect using hacks or
cheats or bots, I can at least compete by grabbing the proper powerups
so they haven't bothered me. That was another poster. When I have
the only damage boost on the map and I'm killed with a single avril
shot in a hellbender, or when a tank can shoot me every time without
having to suffer random shot spread, which doesn't even have a
powerup, then there is evidence for botting/cheating.

>> For me, it seems unusual for someone to provide explanations that are
>> even more absurd than just a cheating explanation. It tends to make
>> me question why you would be working so hard (and poorly) to dusuade
>> me from questioning about cheats.
>
>I'm not attempting to dissuade you from questioning cheating -- in fact,
>I find this discussion quite interesting. However, I _am_ calling into
>question your evidence. I've found your arguments to be highly
>subjective and very debatable; i.e., they all revolve around how another
>player bested you under rather unclear circumstances. You haven't
>succeeded in convincing me that the incidence of cheating is as
>prevalent as you suspect.

Again, it's possible that you haven't understood the thread. You see,
if one person says "was killed in a hell bender with full health and
full damage points for the hellbender with a single avril", they just
saying that the evidence is insufficient isn't good enough. To argue
the point, you would post "call up the torlan map, hold the right
mouse button down, jump, then fire while you're in the air and the
hellbender will be detroyed in a single shot" (or whatever scenario
you imagine). Do you see? Do you understand how a debate would be
formatted? Please post again with an argumentative response.

>A far more convincing argument would call into question the
>effectiveness of current anti-cheat mechanisms. One of the things that
>I'm wondering (but don't know), for example, is whether or not mods like
>AntiTCC are effective. Based on my own experiences -- and the premise
>for my retorts in this forum -- is that the occurrence of cheating seems
>to be very close to zero on servers that run this mod.
>
>I don't support cheating, and feel that cheaters' accounts should be
>permanently CD-key banned -- it diminishes the game for all of us. It's
>disheartening to think, though, that some people are so pessimistic of
>their own capabilities that they assume that superior players cheat.

I already said that I'm not a great player. I've already taken into
account that a lot of players are better deathmatchers than me.
Again, there is no amount of practice that will allow you to accuratly
aim a tank or kill a hellbender with one avril without a damage boost.

No offense, but I'm curious about your intent here. Is that some sort
of PeeWee Herman "I know you are but what am I" type argument? I'm
supposed to concede the argument because to continue to argue implies
that I'm a worse player? Should I have pointed out that I'm older
than 10 years?

goPostal follows the cheater forums and seems to think botting is
still possible for some bot types. I've looked at the obvious,
yahoo-findable cheat forums and they also seem to think some bots are
still in use. I find their arguments far better than yours, which
aren't actually even arguements.

I'm not really trying to convince you about the problem, here, I was
posting to try to get some of goPostals insight into what was and
wasn't possible for cheating. No offense, but given your trend toward
denial, I'm not really interested in making arguments to convince you
of anything.
December 18, 2004 8:28:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

Kris Vorwerk wrote:

> Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
> interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in this
> regard.

Nice first post, welcome!

I won't quote all of it, but I agree pretty much with your opinion -
that too many accuse without proof. I only play ut99 btw, but the
problem is the same.

I KNOW most accusations that I've seen are false, and that's gone on for
years. I've been playing UT since it was released (5 years ago), pretty
much on a daily basis. I wrote the aimbot faq (
http://www.digdilem.org/ut/aimbot.html ) and have worked on anti-cheat a
fair bit. (Not currently, though)

[Rant]

3 days ago: Within the first minute of entering a server, I get accused
of botting. Ok, it was a lucky shot - a double sniper headshot taking
out a guy with a shieldbelt. Later that day I get accused of
spawncamping (I wasn't).

2 days ago: Get accused of spawncamping again (same guy). This sets off
another guy who starts moaning about everyone, game ruined because the 2
strongest players on the other team spend it typing, which leads to more
moaning because the teams are unfair... So I leave server, go onto a
sniper server. I do really well, and am leading the first full game by
20 points and get to 55 out of 60. Then am kicked because I'm "clearly
cheating".

I've been accused of aimbotting too many times to count (including
laughable cases with rockets, redeemer and slimegun), been accused of
having radar and wallhacks (because I can listen to sounds and take a
guess where someone is, or just because I can spam at a likely spot) and
even accused of using a dodgebot.

And yet, I am 100% clean. I don't cheat, never have and wouldn't
consider it fair to others to even try. I'm not even THAT great a player
- compared to the Div1 guys I'm a muppet with a gun.

I do play a lot, UT's my favourite game and my best way of stress
relief. I have a good adsl connection with a low ping and rock-solid
throughput (Eclipse 20-1 contention btw, recommended).

So yes, I KNOW that most accusations are made in the heat of the moment
by a frustrated player. I also think that those players should hold
their tongue until they have proof, because every false alarm makes it
easier for those who DO cheat. I also get annoyed when people think that
because you have some skill with a sniper rifle or instagib rifle, it's
automatic that you cheat. Also, sometimes a player can just get lucky
and make a shot beyond their normal skill. It happens.

[/rant]

There is far too much witch-hunting, not just amongst the normal players
but also amongst the anti-cheat community, but that's a rant for another
day... :) 

--
Flash
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 8:28:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message
news:p tudnewzIpF9-lncRVnyhQ@eclipse.net.uk...
| Kris Vorwerk wrote:
|
| > Long time reader -- first time poster. I thought that this was an
| > interesting thread, so I decided to contribute a few thoughts in
this
| > regard.
|
| Nice first post, welcome!
|
| I won't quote all of it, but I agree pretty much with your opinion -
| that too many accuse without proof. I only play ut99 btw, but the
| problem is the same.
|
| I KNOW most accusations that I've seen are false, and that's gone on
for
| years. I've been playing UT since it was released (5 years ago),
pretty
| much on a daily basis. I wrote the aimbot faq (
| http://www.digdilem.org/ut/aimbot.html ) and have worked on
anti-cheat a
| fair bit. (Not currently, though)
|

I usually say "thank you, didn't know I was doing that well" when
someone accuses me of aimbotting, as it's a strong indicator I'm
playing well.

<snip>|
| And yet, I am 100% clean. I don't cheat, never have and wouldn't
| consider it fair to others to even try. I'm not even THAT great a
player
| - compared to the Div1 guys I'm a muppet with a gun.
|
<snip>|

| --
| Flash


Thank your lucky stars for the stable connection. I subscribe to both
cable and dsl broadband, neither of which is very stable, and routing
problems to many servers with either connection (routing that keeps
switching back and forth between 2 different routes, UT don't like
that very much, too much data thottling). It is nice to be able to
switch to the service that "might" work better with a particular
server, sometimes tho, neither connection works worth a pile of dung
(which has great odor and stinketh mightily). The odd thing is my
first major internet hub with either connection is one of the largest
cities in the US (Chicago) and that's where quite a bit of the routing
delays and schmucky peering are detected.


--
Best regards,
Kyle
December 18, 2004 8:40:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

goPostal wrote:

> Bottom line (still opinion here) cheating is here to stay. You can't patch
> it away because it's part and parcel of the game design. I'll be interested
> in seeing if Epic does any changes in the next game to disallow cheating in
> the form it has now. Personally I'd say not and here's why: Cheaters buy
> game copies. Lots of them.

Do they, though?

I'd have thought that any group of people who don't have any moral
issues with cheating at a multiplayer game, would have a similar lack of
moral issues about downloading the game instead of paying for it?

That's not to say non-cheaters always buy the game, but as a demographic
I'd expect them to be more honest.

Also, and this is pretty important, cheaters ruin the game for
non-cheaters. They also ruin the game for themselves in the long view.
Players become disallusioned and move elsewhere. (Although where? All
FPS's have this problem afaik) So Epic, if they are smart, should make
an effort to stop it...

....which they did... They hired UT's top anti-cheat coder, Dr Sin, and
gave him a nice little job stopping 2k3 onwards from being overrun.
(Sorry TNSE, but you're european and also rude and weird, so Dr Sin gets
the hat).

But, cynically, anti-cheat people need cheat people to survive, just
like the anti-virus and anti-spyware markets. Very lucrative, but
require Bad Guys (real or invented), so a single-hit "Stop all cheaters
forever" solution would put them out of a job, even if it were possible.

It's human nature to try and gain an edge. Morals are very elastic
things and the human brain can justify ANY action or decision (Check
some world history for abundant proof). Cheaters, like thieves,
drug-taking sportsmen and businessmen of ethical dubiosity will always
be with us.

--
Flash
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 8:40:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

"Flash" <NOSPAM@digdilem.org> wrote in message
news:XKSdnfL_EKdP91ncRVnyiw@eclipse.net.uk...
> goPostal wrote:
>

> Do they, though?
>
> I'd have thought that any group of people who don't have any moral issues
> with cheating at a multiplayer game, would have a similar lack of moral
> issues about downloading the game instead of paying for it?
>
> That's not to say non-cheaters always buy the game, but as a demographic
> I'd expect them to be more honest.
>
> Also, and this is pretty important, cheaters ruin the game for
> non-cheaters. They also ruin the game for themselves in the long view.
> Players become disallusioned and move elsewhere. (Although where? All
> FPS's have this problem afaik) So Epic, if they are smart, should make an
> effort to stop it...
>
> ...which they did... They hired UT's top anti-cheat coder, Dr Sin, and
> gave him a nice little job stopping 2k3 onwards from being overrun. (Sorry
> TNSE, but you're european and also rude and weird, so Dr Sin gets the
> hat).
>
> But, cynically, anti-cheat people need cheat people to survive, just like
> the anti-virus and anti-spyware markets. Very lucrative, but require Bad
> Guys (real or invented), so a single-hit "Stop all cheaters forever"
> solution would put them out of a job, even if it were possible.
>
> It's human nature to try and gain an edge. Morals are very elastic things
> and the human brain can justify ANY action or decision (Check some world
> history for abundant proof). Cheaters, like thieves, drug-taking
> sportsmen and businessmen of ethical dubiosity will always be with us.
>
> --
> Flash

Hey Flash! How've ya been? You make some very important points here. One
needs the other to survive. (Actually it was you who got me so interested in
cheats in the first place. Your aimbot FAQ simply fascinated me when I first
read it.)
Along those same lines, I never have been able to find that damn "feign
death" cheat that I saw online a couple of years ago that made it into your
FAQ. I still swear I saw it though!! :) 
December 18, 2004 8:44:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.unreal.tournament (More info?)

goPostal wrote:

> Funny thing is is that the last time I mentioned about this I was crucified
> on the NG by a few posters (maybe a year ago? Time gets away...), called a
> cheater, and ended up defending myself quite a bit. On the flip side three
> of the regulars here asked me by email for a copy of the latest bot so they
> could see for themselves. Funny isn't it? :) 

It is indeed. Now imagine how many requests you get when you host a
website dedicated to the subject...

I wonder how many requests CSHP/Pure/NBSP/Ash/UTDC/Qvalidate get? :) 

--
Flash
!