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Business computer build advice

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August 12, 2010 8:41:10 PM

I am trying to put together a new computer for the small business my wife and I own. I have built 3 comps over the last 11 yrs. It Will not be used for gaming, heavy graphics editing, CAD programs etc. I just want a reliable solid performer.

I am looking to put in an order with Newegg in the next few days, I would like to spend $400.-$600. for the components on this page(including a case other than one of the cases listed here). The only other thing I might possibly need is a better CPU fan. Should I go with the stock fan or what? Components below approx. $440. plus $10.-$20. shipping. I can reuse everything else that is needed. I will not be overclocking.
GIGABYTE GA-785GMT-USB3 AM3 AMD 785G HDMI USB 3.0 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard $94.99 Free Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Onboard graphics works for me


AMD Phenom II X3 720 Black Edition Heka 2.8GHz 3 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 95W Triple-Core Processor HDZ720WFK3DGI – OEM $99.00 $5.99 Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

OR(I can’t decide)

AMD Athlon II X4 635 Propus 2.9GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM3 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor ADX635WFGIBOX $99.00 Free Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT12864BN1337 $57.99 $2.99 Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Do I need 4 GB?


SeaSonic S12II 520 Bronze 520W ATX12V V2.3 / EPS 12V V2.91 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply $69.99 $9.65 Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

I don’t like any of these 3(under $100. )cases that are recommended on this site. The 2 Cooler Master cases according to many reviews on Newegg get no tech support at all and they don’t honor their rebates. In addition, they have problems with the fans. The Antec case just seems so cheap and lacking in basic functions. It also doesn’t sound like it will stand up. I have a PC Power and Cooling case from a computer I built back in 1999 and I just reused it for a new computer build. It is great, had options to add fans, it was well laid out and worked well for a semi high end system I built. Why can’t I find a decent case for under $100.? I don’t want anything flashy, don't care how it looks, just something that works reliably with enough fan options to keep everything cool. I have spent more time looking for a case than anything else(what’s wrong with this picture?) and this is the main reason I am writing here. The computer I am using to write this has an old Lian Li case that I bought used on E-Bay 2-3 yrs ago, I love it(Beautiful brushed aluminum, lots of space, lots of cooling and it just works) but apparently you can’t find deals like that anymore. I paid $25. but they are $100.-$200. or more now.

COOLER MASTER Storm Scout SGC-2000-KKN1-GP Black Steel / Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $79.99 Free Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

COOLER MASTER RC-690-KKN1-GP Black SECC/ ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $59.99 ($49.99 after $10.00 Mail-In Rebate )$12.99 Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Antec Three Hundred Illusion Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $69.99 $9.99 Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive $54.99 Free Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

I guess the one below is a no brainer over the one above. I have been partial to WD hard drives for the last few yrs where I used to prefer Seagate . I have never had a Samsung. Any thoughts about a comparable WD drive over either of these Samsungs?
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive $59.99 Free Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Thanks for Lookin',
Urge













a c 113 B Homebuilt system
August 12, 2010 9:00:43 PM

Whoa easy on the gaming cases :)  You don't need anything like that. Your mATX board will be just great in a CM elite case like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

You need one 120mm intake and one 120mm out. Anything more is just a waste with a modern CPU and no video card. buy an extra fan with the case.... like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

If you must have more case, then here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
rosewill has improved in quality over the last few years, gradually.

Probably the Propus for an office rig, unless you are trying to unlock the 4th core on the Heka.

And yes, get the 4GB up front. It will make a good difference.

A Caviar Black (WD) is probably the better office drive. The Seagate 7200.12 and Samsung Spinpoint are better at sustained reads... so they are gaming drives. WD for reliability and overall performance.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=E...
500GB or 1TB are good. Platter size matters.
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August 12, 2010 9:06:56 PM

Agree with the gaming cases, you don't need them for some office PC. If you really want to pimp your office PC get a red L.E.D. like this

That was a joke, but I think it would look cool ;) 
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Related resources
August 12, 2010 9:13:48 PM

Lite-On DVD Burner- 19.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Samsung F3 1TB Hard Drive- 59.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsair 400w PSU- 49.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

G SKILL DDR3 4GB DDR3 Ram- 81.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Windows 7 HomePremium 64bit + Antec 300 Illusion Case Combo- 159.98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

Biostar TA785G3HD Motherboard + Athlon II X3 440 CPU - 117.98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

Total AR $469.92
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 12, 2010 9:51:35 PM

Get a Lian Li case!!!! Combo deal: LIAN LI Lancool PC-K58W case and G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB for $133

Combo deal: OCZ ModXStream Pro 500W PSU and Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64 for $123 after rebate

Biostar TA785G3HD Motherboard + Athlon II X3 440 CPU for $108 after rebate - Don't forget to unlock that 4th core.

DVD for $20 Thanks to dan4patriots for the motherboard combo and the dvd recommendation.

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB for $60 - This is a great drive for an excellent price.

Total $444 after rebates, including shipping.



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August 12, 2010 9:57:40 PM

Proximon wrote...
Quote:
A Caviar Black (WD) is probably the better office drive.


Why not a blue or green?

Quote:
If you must have more case, then here:


I can live with this case, seems a better option than any Cooler Master.

Quote:
buy an extra fan with the case.... like this:


What do you think of Enermax 120mm case fans? for instance:

ENERMAX Apollish UCAP12-BL 120mm Case Fan
$16.99
($6.99 after $10.00 Mail-In Rebate Card pdf )
$2.99 Shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Urge
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a c 113 B Homebuilt system
August 12, 2010 10:06:02 PM

You picked the Spinpoint so I assumed you wanted speed. The blues are older designs and hot. The greens are quiet and long lasting, but slower.

Well, that Enermax looks a lot like the Yate Loons I use:
http://www.jab-tech.com/YATE-LOON-120mm-Case-Fan-D12SM-...
YLs are quiet and what noise they make is lower frequency and so less annoying. The drawback is longevity. Other than that I have no info on the Enermax.
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August 12, 2010 10:30:11 PM

I think the case is something you want to spend a little more money on. Make sure that as an office PC that the case is a quiet one. Personally I'd recommend one of the iterations of the Antec Sonata. Those cases are both roomy and quiet.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=E...
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August 12, 2010 10:35:36 PM

Quote:
eloric wrote...Get a Lian Li case!!!! Combo deal: LIAN LI Lancool PC-K58W case and G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB for $133


I like that Lian Li case, how good is the memory? $13. more than the Rosewill. $179. vs $133. that's not a trivial diff. and Lian Li deffinitely outclasses Rosewill. So, even though I'm not buying for looks, I get price and quality and looks for less. Assuming that the memory is cool, yes/no?

Urge
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August 13, 2010 3:03:14 AM

GIGABYTE GA-785GMT-USB3 AM3 AMD 785G HDMI USB 3.0 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard supports Memory Standard DDR3 1800 (OC)/1666/1333/1066.
Is this memory compatible?
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory?
What is the difference between DDR3 1666 and DDR3 1600?
What does PC3 12800 mean?

Urge
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 13, 2010 3:14:24 AM

Hmm my current favoutire for rigs like these is the CM 341 casings :p  If u like compact/mATX builds the windowless version is 4 x 120mm capable and even gamers will be beaming at the massive clearance for monster GPUs hehe
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 13, 2010 3:20:41 AM

'a better option than any Cooler Master'?

You absolutely must be joking.
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a c 113 B Homebuilt system
August 13, 2010 3:45:50 AM

You just need to understand we all actually have had our hands on the many of these cases :)  I've used the CM case I originally linked in a few builds and was impressed with it's simple good looks, ease of use, and quietness. All for 40 bucks. Never used a bad or sub-standard CM case, but maybe they make some?

You generally do not need 1600mhz memory for an AMD build. Frequency is not as important as latency, ever, but especially in an AMD build that really prefers 1333mhz RAM.

So for instance this RAM
Mushkin Blackline 1333 CL 7
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Is better than this RAM
Mushkin Blackline 1600 CL9
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Although the price is about the same.

Now, in Intel builds you might need higher frequency RAM for overclocking purposes.
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August 13, 2010 4:11:10 AM

False_Dmitry_ wrote...
Quote:
'a better option than any Cooler Master'?


You absolutely must be joking.

Judging by all the bad reviews on Newegg they suck. Look up a Lian Li case for instance (I'm sure there are many other brands also) and there are few to no negative reviews. I haven't researched this extensively so please don't rain down on me with tons of bricks but every CM case that I looked at had lots of negatives. I'm just sayin'.
.

Urge
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 13, 2010 7:22:40 AM

So you're comparing super expensive gaming cases to an entire line of regular stuff, which has some super expensive stuff (Cosmos) or high end features (HAF series), and then calling the line crappy?

You're building an Office PC, not an Alienware PC. Everyone nitpicks on those reviews. Those who don't fall into a few categories, managed to have bad luck and get something defective and instead of accepting that things happen they have to ***** about it, have no idea what they're doing, or they're making stuff up or dislike the company for no reason. There are sometimes a few that actually have valid reasons for what they're saying.

Also, that case they're talking about has 1% of 1 egg reviews. That's a pretty untouchable number to begin with.

Out of all cases I have ever worked with I find I am generally impressed by their offerings. My HTPC is made out of old parts after an upgrade, besides the case which is an Elite 360 - it manages to fit a full ATX mobo and PSU in a nice and small package that really can pull off the 'regular piece of AV equipment' look in the entertainment center rack. And the HAF 922, all the full tower bonuses not the price. One of my favorites about it is the hard drive bay design, I tried and couldn't find anyone else that had that sort of bay for it's price and even a bit higher.

You even have some listed in the OP, IDK why you're ragging on them now.

Also, trust me, there are alot of bad cases out there that will have you sacrificing your blood to the computer gods. None of the CM cases fit that description.
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August 13, 2010 6:40:15 PM

False_Dmitry_ wrote...
Quote:
You even have some listed in the OP, IDK why you're ragging on them now.


Tom's Hardware Recommendations
<$100

* Antec 300 Illusion
* Cooler Master RC-690
* Cooler Master Storm Scout

This is what I said in my OP...
Quote:
I don’t like any of these 3(under $100. )cases that are recommended on this site.


Here are a small selection of comments and complaints from the Cooler Master RC-690 reviews, in order, the avg. and poor reviews. I didn't even include any from the very poor which were really nasty. The lack of customer support and failure to honor rebates were common themes.

Quote:
Customer Support requests seems to go straight to their trash box.

: Don't expect your rebate!

You get what you pay for. Really cheap build and parts!!!

I've contacted customer service both via e-mail and phone and they are definitely among the worst available. If anything happens where you have to deal with there customer service you'll regret ever buying one of there products

Appalling CM customer support

: mine came with 1 bad fan its got a bad wine to it. coolermaster says they would be glad to replace it but after many emails and 1 phone call . nothing no replacment


So, if in addition to whatever failings the case had the company won't stand behind it why would I buy from them?

I have dealt with, for example, Corsair and they were definitely a stand up company. promptly dealt with a bad PS on the phone and sent out a new one immediately. I understand that stuff fails but if there is no acountability???


False_Dmitry_ wrote...

Quote:
There are sometimes a few that actually have valid reasons for what they're saying.


The understatement of the year, in my opinion. I just included comments about one case but I looked at several for under $100. and they all had too many negative reviews for my liking. Even the "good" reviews had common themes of problem parts.

Now go look at the cheapest Lian Li cases($65.-$75. including shipping) and read "all" of the negative reviews. There are barely any! So, when comparing apples to apples Cooler Master comes up rotten.

Urge
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 13, 2010 7:10:48 PM

I can't speak to their customer support but that's because I never have had a problem. I, and probably everyone here, have never bothered to take the time to write a review. You will always hear more negative things than positive. Simply because people like to complain.

Not only have I not had a problem, I flatly disagree with the one that says it's of poor quality. Maybe that guy is used to $1000 cases and is pissed he didn't get that quality? There's no way to know why he said that.

Rebates are pretty much always somewhat of a gamble. I've never had anything not show up from anything bought on newegg. But failure to honor one is not a reflection of the product itself, it is a reflection of people's failure to read the terms or a failure of the actual company that gets paid to process them. CM would have little to actually do with them.

The rest are pretty much all support related, in fact every company that I have needed support from came through easily and quickly, including gigabyte and rosewill to start. I and many others won't believe complaints about that until it happens to us.

With the exception of possibly the support ones, those don't qualify as having valid reasons.
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August 13, 2010 8:22:01 PM

False_Dmitry_ wrote...

Quote:
You will always hear more negative things than positive. Simply because people like to complain.


If that were true, wouldn't it be true for all manufacturers?

Quote:
Rebates are pretty much always somewhat of a gamble. ...But failure to honor one is not a reflection of the product itself, it is a reflection of people's failure to read the terms or a failure of the actual company that gets paid to process them. CM would have little to actually do with them.


I have read articles in newspapers and online on consumer issues that slammed companies for deceptive, fraudulent rebate programs, I don't believe this is a stretch at all. For instance...

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/06/05/15/rebate-scam...

Quote:
"Sorry, we show no record of you mailing in a rebate and, as you'll read in Section 14, Part E of your rebate form, we don't accept copies of receipts. So basically you're screwed. Is there anything else I can help you with?" Moving away from dirty schemes to downright lies, this tactic takes the blue ribbon for most despicable of all. You probably won't find it in official corporate marketing procedures, but a popular "silent" policy is to not process any rebates that come in to the fulfillment center at all.
"NO WAY," you may think. But oh yes indeed. Certain companies will hold the rebate requests but show no official receipt of them. They know that many people will simply forget about it once they've mailed it ... out of sight, out of mind. It is actually more cost-effective for them to pay customer "service" to handle the inquiries of those few who do remember and finally inquire what happened to their rebate versus paying out all the rebates that come in!


and then, if your customer service is nonexistent it doesn't cost you anything!

Urge
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 13, 2010 9:20:53 PM

It is true of all of everything. For an example, the original xbox's controller. I and many of my friends prefer the original one. Because lots of people complained about it they fully stopped production of it and created the controller S as the standard controller. For quite some time while it was still active, there was simply no way of getting a new original controller for the many who do like it. People who have a positive opinion of something simply don't take the internet by storm saying 'heck yeah, best thing ever' anywhere near as much as someone who doesn't like something about it, especially by numbers.

That article depends on who is doing the rebating. Most of what it's saying is straight from the retailer, rather than from the manufacturer which is where most come from on newegg. (or at least, that's what the rebates say) Neweggs pretty good about pretty much everything.

Not only that, almost all rebates on newegg now have you register and set stuff up online first. It tells you what and when is happening.
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August 13, 2010 10:10:24 PM

Well, we could probably go back and forth about this for days so let's just agree to disagree. I just want to find a decent, cheap case for a business computer.
This is the MOBO I want to buy...

GIGABYTE GA-785GMT-USB3 AM3 AMD 785G HDMI USB 3.0 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard $94.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

and this is the memory it takes

Memory Standard DDR3 1800 (OC)/1666/1333/1066

This is the memory that comes in a package deal with a LIAN LI case

G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Here is the combo deal...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

will this memory work in the GIGABYTE GA-785GMT-USB3 MOBO?

Urge
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 13, 2010 10:38:43 PM

There's no reason it wouldn't work.

But this would be cheaper with a rebate :p 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

then could get that rosewill case also which would be cheaper as well.

and yeah, we could, and I and quite a few people still getting those would still be right. As has been said we have physically had our hands in most of these cases. But ultimately it's your money to spend.
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August 14, 2010 10:40:13 PM

False_Dmitry_II wrote...
Quote:
and yeah, we could, and I and quite a few people still getting those would still be right.


You know, when I read this all I could think of was "Never give an inch" the motto of the Stamper family in Ken Kesey's book Sometimes A Great Notion. So, I get no credibility, no respect, no valid or logical arguments on my part, and I thought I was stubborn. If I had to rephrase anything I said it would be
Quote:
I can live with this case, seems a better option than any Cooler Master.
to "a better option than any Cooler Master under $100." You are trying to speak for a lot of people but I don't hear many of them voicing an opinion(only Proximon really). Having said all that I relooked at the Rosewill case

edit-I tried to make this a clickable link using the "insert a url" icon but it didn't work. How do I do this?
and it seems like it would be just fine. The biggest complaint about it and it was from just about everyone over a period of a couple of months was that they didn't send one of the side panels. It seems like everyone got theirs within a week after they contacted customer support though.

Urge
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a c 113 B Homebuilt system
August 14, 2010 11:41:56 PM

As long as this is going to stay civil (it is, right?) then I'll add a bit more.

urge21, THIS is MY case:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
review
http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cases_cooling/silver...

I do know and appreciate quality. If you want tech support get Silverstone. Prompt responses and shipping from Joel and the crew right here in the US. But pay for it.

If you want functional cases that look good on a budget, see my other posts ;) 
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a b B Homebuilt system
August 15, 2010 12:09:21 AM

As long as you consider what I've said so far civil, yeah.

In these threads as soon as a few people are already responding to the OP not many more people talk.

Not only that, you haven't physically messed with these cases yourself. You're taking largely 'meh @ tech support' and 'meh @ rebates' and then saying that they're unmistakeably the worst cases ever. This is simply false. Once again we have, we've seen differences. There are cases that will cut you, these are the bad ones; that might have thin enough metal to only survive maybe two motherboard mountings before becoming unusable. That's not what CM offers at any price point.

They wouldn't be as major of a player as they are without having at least a passable product, and they are all above average. Just look at the sheer numbers of reviews for a hint of this, for the more popular there are literally thousands of reviews. Most stuff on that site barely has hundreds. Law of averages says some would be unhappy, even though most aren't really complaining about the product itself.

And once again if you wanna spend a bunch of money on what is essentially a box, because office PC's don't need much in the way of cooling, that's totally your call.
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August 15, 2010 4:42:02 PM

I looked at the case that Proximon mentioned (drop dead gorgeous) and then looked at their line and found this. SILVERSTONE PS05-B Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Tool-less Installation Design Computer Case
$49.99
($39.99 after $10.00 Mail-In Rebate pdf )
$2.99 Shipping*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
This case only comes with 1 fan.

The other case I liked that Proximon mentioned
Rosewill Smart One ATX Mid Tower Computer Case, Black interior, comes with three Fans-1x Front Blue LED 120mm Fan, 1x Rear 120mm Fan, 1x Top 120mm Fan, Option Fans-2x Side 120mm Fan
$49.99
$9.99 Shipping*
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
has 3 fans and since I probably need at least 1 more fan the price is approx. the same with 1 less fan in the Silverstone. Does that sound reasonable, 2 fans for the office build I am doing? I have extra 80mm case enermax fans, is there an adapter so I could use them in a case with 120mm mounting holes. I am guessing that they would be sufficient for this relatively low heat case yes/no.

False_Dmitry_II wrote...
Quote:
And once again if you wanna spend a bunch of money on what is essentially a box, because office PC's don't need much in the way of cooling, that's totally your call.


This is what I wrote in my OP...
Quote:
Why can’t I find a decent case for under $100.?


False_Dmitry_II wrote...
Quote:
and then saying that they're unmistakeably the worst cases ever.


I never said that.

False_Dmitry_II wrote...
Quote:
There are cases that will cut you, these are the bad ones


From a review of a COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum Bezel , SECC Chassis ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Quote:
For those of you that like to monkey around in your case alot (like me), be warned, the sheet metal has sharp edges all over. They can be smoothed with some sandpaper TLC.

False_Dmitry_II wrote...
Quote:
Law of averages says some would be unhappy, even though most aren't really complaining about the product itself.


Not true there were many complaints about the product. Maybe you should go and actually read the reviews for the low end of their line that you are so vociferously defending.

You know, Toyota recently became the #1 car manufacturer in sales. Over the last several years they emphasized quantity over quality which led to the massive recalls recently. Could there be a corollary here?

You know, if this were a college debating team I feel you would be not scoring many points because you are either misquoting me, distorting my viewpoint, ignoring what I said if you didn't have a comeback, making sweeping, undocumented generalizations or attempting to minimize the damage when the facts don't support your position. Your viewpoint is so rigid and dogmatic, this isn't black and white, there is a lot of gray here. I'm thinking you must be a republican*.

I would be very interested in hearing any thoughts from other members here, are False_Dmitry_II's comments fair? Am I delusional in thinking that he is being overly dogmatic? Did any of my views make any sense? I am just looking for a cheap reliable case and I have spent way too much time on this but False_Dmitry_II you really got my Irish up.

Urge


*Frivolous and hopefully humorous political commentary on my part.



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a b B Homebuilt system
August 15, 2010 5:13:00 PM

Probably because I'm also mostly Irish.

And that centurion 5 has 95% 4 and 5 egg ratings. Overwhelmingly positive. With 2,516 reviews. Pretty much exactly what I was talking about.

Anyway that one you found looks pretty good. It actually has the sideways harddrive bays. I will never personally use one that doesn't again. (unless it's not even there like the CM 341 they were talking about)
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