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Ati finally shipping more GPU's than Nvidia.

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July 30, 2010 10:39:49 PM

Now that the GTX 460 is out though..... I could see the tide turning back the other way very quickly. The new 460 is just a stellar performer for it's price point. :)  I can see folks adopting it very quickly.

Time will tell.

We want it to swing back and forth of course. With ATI talking about their 6xxx series sometime in the not so far off future, it should be a fun ride. :) 
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July 30, 2010 10:44:59 PM

The Fermi delays where always going to show up somehow, it just take a little while to filter through to the financial reports. The question should be "what are they going to do with this so called "lead" and what is going to happen with their prices now that they are in bed with Apple?
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July 30, 2010 11:12:35 PM

Mousemonkey said:
The Fermi delays where always going to show up somehow, it just take a little while to filter through to the financial reports. The question should be "what are they going to do with this so called "lead" and what is going to happen with their prices now that they are in bed with Apple?


Fermi Was Delayed maybe due to ATi Showing off their DX11 Chip a little bit too early! When you release a chip you need to ahve something with comparable benchmarks! Fermi Is a Good Chip DX10.1 with Cuda. it also depends on the Software Programmers who they are going to code for, these are complex API's plus you can tell with the Limited DX11 software on the market. The Games that define the Standard For an API are Doom Series F.e.a.r. series, Dungeon siege series in the Gaming Industry those are the 3 I consider to push the cards to it max limits! As long as your Card can run those games everyone is Happy! Anyways market Share is 51% 49% which is the same difference between Ati and Nvidia!
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July 30, 2010 11:22:33 PM

GunBladeType-T said:
Fermi Was Delayed maybe due to ATi Showing off their DX11 Chip a little bit too early!

Fermi was delayed due to TSMC's difficulty sorting out how to make 40nm GPU's and the fact that its packing way more bits than the ATi counterparts, being a bit slow with the design phase didn't help either.
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July 30, 2010 11:23:56 PM

jerreece said:
Now that the GTX 460 is out though..... I could see the tide turning back the other way very quickly. The new 460 is just a stellar performer for it's price point. :)  I can see folks adopting it very quickly.

Time will tell.

We want it to swing back and forth of course. With ATI talking about their 6xxx series sometime in the not so far off future, it should be a fun ride. :) 

The GTX460 is way overrated IMO. I just don't get why everyone think its so amazing besides the fact its the first competitive DX11 Nvidia card. Are expectations for Nvidia this low?

Its a good value for the price, but looking at the numbers, it is just 5-10% better than the HD5830, while consuming more power while being released 6-months later. Amazing SLI performance aside, its not THAT impressive.

:pt1cable: 

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July 31, 2010 2:33:07 AM

Timop said:
The GTX460 is way overrated IMO. I just don't get why everyone think its so amazing besides the fact its the first competitive DX11 Nvidia card. Are expectations for Nvidia this low?

Its a good value for the price, but looking at the numbers, it is just 5-10% better than the HD5830, while consuming more power while being released 6-months later. Amazing SLI performance aside, its not THAT impressive.

:pt1cable: 


Look At 3dfx they were in style for 8 years before getting bought out due to delays, eventually engineer's get old, than Nvidia was number#1 for a while, with all the intellectual property ATI eventually merged with AMD and have the number 1 chip next step, I would guess is Via/Nvidia competing with AMD or Intel/Nvidia! Via has had some interesting Chipsets with Low power consumption and good performance! This would be more interesting Competition! Give Nvidia a break they were very competitive with ATI and their latest Fermi Chip looks to be Very Competitive! It all depends on who codes for your Hardware, Software companies that can optimize for your GPU is better than havign the best specs!
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July 31, 2010 3:04:52 AM

GunBladeType-T said:
Look At 3dfx they were in style for 8 years before getting bought out due to delays, eventually engineer's get old, than Nvidia was number#1 for a while, with all the intellectual property ATI eventually merged with AMD and have the number 1 chip next step, I would guess is Via/Nvidia competing with AMD or Intel/Nvidia! Via has had some interesting Chipsets with Low power consumption and good performance! This would be more interesting Competition! Give Nvidia a break they were very competitive with ATI and their latest Fermi Chip looks to be Very Competitive! It all depends on who codes for your Hardware, Software companies that can optimize for your GPU is better than havign the best specs!

VIA really has no marketshare nowadays and I doubt Nvidia will want to buy them out. The Nano hasnt been updated since last year, and the performance is only on par with atoms. Their chipset business is dwindling and soon becoming irrelevant as AMD starts integrating NBs into CPUs and even their little presence they had in the UMPC/MID market is being encroached by Ontario, Moorestown and ARM. Having no real patents besides the little they acquired from Cyrix and S3, the only thing they have is the 10-year licensing deal for 3 Centaur patents with Intel that expires in 2013.

Back to Nvidia, the GTX460 is competitive no denying that, it is just over-hyped. In many peoples minds that the HD5830 suddenly became "irrelevant" and you can OC a GTX460 to "exceed the performance of a HD5850" , forgetting that the HD5850 OCs just as well if not better and flats out beats the GTX460 at stock and consumes less power for only $50 more. Hmm..

:bounce: 
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July 31, 2010 4:19:55 AM

Timop said:
VIA really has no marketshare nowadays and I doubt Nvidia will want to buy them out. The Nano hasnt been updated since last year, and the performance is only on par with atoms. Their chipset business is dwindling and soon becoming irrelevant as AMD starts integrating NBs into CPUs and even their little presence they had in the UMPC/MID market is being encroached by Ontario, Moorestown and ARM. Having no real patents besides the little they acquired from Cyrix and S3, the only thing they have is the 10-year licensing deal for 3 Centaur patents with Intel that expires in 2013.

Back to Nvidia, the GTX460 is competitive no denying that, it is just over-hyped. In many peoples minds that the HD5830 suddenly became "irrelevant" and you can OC a GTX460 to "exceed the performance of a HD5850" , forgetting that the HD5850 OCs just as well if not better and flats out beats the GTX460 at stock and consumes less power for only $50 more. Hmm..

:bounce: 

Well In my opinion Via has the Savage Chrome Series DX10.1 more Engineers for gpu's plus the cyrix architecture, all it needed was more programmers and the transmeta crusoe series chips which were power savings! It would be a an option to compete! AMD/ATI is in a good position now but there is also another option on the chessboard, Resistance is Futile we Are the Borg mentality doesn't work anymore there are always options!
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August 7, 2010 12:26:50 AM

Timop said:
VIA really has no marketshare nowadays and I doubt Nvidia will want to buy them out. The Nano hasnt been updated since last year, and the performance is only on par with atoms. Their chipset business is dwindling and soon becoming irrelevant as AMD starts integrating NBs into CPUs and even their little presence they had in the UMPC/MID market is being encroached by Ontario, Moorestown and ARM. Having no real patents besides the little they acquired from Cyrix and S3, the only thing they have is the 10-year licensing deal for 3 Centaur patents with Intel that expires in 2013.

Back to Nvidia, the GTX460 is competitive no denying that, it is just over-hyped. In many peoples minds that the HD5830 suddenly became "irrelevant" and you can OC a GTX460 to "exceed the performance of a HD5850" , forgetting that the HD5850 OCs just as well if not better and flats out beats the GTX460 at stock and consumes less power for only $50 more. Hmm..

:bounce: 

Yeah, the 5850 hands down is o ne of the best gpus to come out in the short history of gpus for price per preformance, its like the legendary 8800gtx in terms of how long and how popular this chip laster up until its gts250 reincarnation 4 years later.
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August 7, 2010 1:01:28 AM

The GTX 460 deserves all the accolades its getting. The HD 5830 is a crippled behemoth that doesn't beat either GTX 460s at stock or anywhere else and the HD 5850 is a different price category. We needed a small, cool, quiet fast $200 option and we didn't have one until July.
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August 7, 2010 4:20:55 AM

liquidsnake718 said:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-sales-battle-radeo... How many ppl actually saw this coming about 9 months ago when ATi released their 5870 and 5850's? I for one did!


Actually I think you're missing the cause. This has little to do with the HD58xx directly it's the HD57xx,56xx,55xx...... that are involved in a shift in GPU share. Once ATi brought out the Juniper and Redwood chips out so quickly afterwards and nV still doesn't have a comparable chip (the GTX 460 competes with the crippled Cyrpesses) that's what made the big shift.

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Although Nvidia has got me on their ION gpu on netbooks....


Meh, it held alot of promise but even that is starting to wane now that the momentum has stalled. Intel's purchase of Infineon and their and AMD's move towards SOC solutions is looking a little more promising unless ION3 provides something sweet.
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August 7, 2010 4:31:14 AM

GunBladeType-T said:
Fermi Was Delayed maybe due to ATi Showing off their DX11 Chip a little bit too early! When you release a chip you need to ahve something with comparable benchmarks!


Yeah that's exactly what the problem was with the G80.... uh..... hmmm... :whistle: 

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The Games that define the Standard For an API are Doom Series F.e.a.r. series, Dungeon siege series in the Gaming Industry those are the 3 I consider to push the cards to it max limits!


You may consider that, but you'd be wrong. They're nowhere near current limits. :pfff: 
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August 7, 2010 4:36:55 AM

jeffredo said:
The GTX 460 deserves all the accolades its getting. The HD 5830 is a crippled behemoth that doesn't beat either GTX 460s at stock or anywhere else and the HD 5850 is a different price category.


Price is an artifice of supply and demand, not an indicator of the quality of a chip. The HD5870 destroys the GTX460, and it's smaller, and cheaper to make. That people are still willing to pay more for it and AMD can demand more for it is a function of the marketplace.

I agree the HD5830 is a dog at its price, but it's hardly a behemoth when it's smaller than the competition. :heink: 

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We needed a small, cool, quiet fast $200 option and we didn't have one until July.


Sure we did, we had two: the HD4870/4890 and the HD5770, now we have a better one, and in a few more months we're likely to have an even better one... and then a better one...
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August 7, 2010 7:43:22 AM

Timop said:
The GTX460 is way overrated IMO. I just don't get why everyone think its so amazing besides the fact its the first competitive DX11 Nvidia card. Are expectations for Nvidia this low?

Its a good value for the price, but looking at the numbers, it is just 5-10% better than the HD5830, while consuming more power while being released 6-months later. Amazing SLI performance aside, its not THAT impressive.

:pt1cable: 


i would actually agree even as a 460 own now, while i really like my 460gtx, i think it just seems so great because of the price point it took over the 5830 which i don't think anyone was bouncing gout of there seats for that card. the only place where the 460gtx i don't believe is over hyped is in sli, at 90ish% scaling that's pretty amazing

but to the topic of the tread i think it's going to be the next gen that's really going to difine the market, i believe ati hands down won this round, but as i see it at least, nvidia went all in to develop a card that really was dx11 at heart, and ati was a dx 10 beast that had the requirements to be dx11. Which honestly i believe was the better choice, they most likely thought that just like dx 10 it wouldn't caught on immediately sure, there have been a few titles that have dx 11 but do they really look much different form dx 9 or 10 at this point except maybe metro 2033

So i think the next gen is really going to simply be a refinement of fermi, while for ati it's going to be a complete reworking just as fermi was for this gen. So the big question is will it have been worth it to develop the tech now as nivida did, or later as will ati
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August 7, 2010 11:59:40 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Yeah that's exactly what the problem was with the G80.... uh..... hmmm... :whistle: 

Quote:
The Games that define the Standard For an API are Doom Series F.e.a.r. series, Dungeon siege series in the Gaming Industry those are the 3 I consider to push the cards to it max limits!


You may consider that, but you'd be wrong. They're nowhere near current limits. :pfff: 



Do you Realize Sierra Monolith makes those games like Half Life, where you get to play as a scientist, Gordon Moore, and ID is John Carmack, they are the pioneer's of the industry. They are the one's responsible for forcing the gaming industry to update to new high end gear if you want to enjoy hi-end gaming!
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August 8, 2010 12:25:37 AM

jerreece said:
Now that the GTX 460 is out though..... I could see the tide turning back the other way very quickly. The new 460 is just a stellar performer for it's price point. :)  I can see folks adopting it very quickly.

Time will tell.

We want it to swing back and forth of course. With ATI talking about their 6xxx series sometime in the not so far off future, it should be a fun ride. :) 

And here is a new survey that shows this

Nvidia tops AMD in high-end graphics market in July: survey
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/40455/20100803/nvidia-g...
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August 8, 2010 1:18:56 AM

Mousemonkey said:
Raining on their parade already? :lol: 


Xbit did a article when the #'s were released showing ATI's increases. Imo they reflect Nvidia not having a competing 'new' product for those months,especially at Christmas time.

ATI Commands Markets of High-End, Mainstream Graphics Cards - Research.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/201007291147...

Quote:
On the desktop market of standalone GPUs Nvidia continued to lead with 8.55 million of discrete graphics chips shipped during the second quarter and 55.2% market share. The company lost 10.9% of its unit market share year-over-year as its shipments decreased by 27% from Q2 2009, Mercury indicated.

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August 8, 2010 4:22:16 AM

jeffredo said:
The GTX 460 deserves all the accolades its getting. The HD 5830 is a crippled behemoth that doesn't beat either GTX 460s at stock or anywhere else and the HD 5850 is a different price category. We needed a small, cool, quiet fast $200 option and we didn't have one until July.



Well if your not impressed by the 5830 series the 5770XT has good performance for the price and looks very compact, and efficient! ATI has released this product a while ago 7-8months being the 1st DX11 chip on the market! Another refresh of their DX11 architecture and they have it perfected at it's best. R&D costs alot of money when you release a chip, with it being DX11 it doesn't depreciate as quickly, the price gets maybe more economical with a die shrink and a second revision, after getting used to the new DX11 architecure!
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August 8, 2010 4:31:31 AM

GunBladeType-T said:
R&D costs alot of money when you release a chip, with it being DX11 it doesn't depreciate as quickly, the price gets maybe more economical with a die shrink and a second revision, after getting used to the new DX11 architecure!

A good argument for getting a GTX460, don't you think? :lol: 
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August 8, 2010 5:18:23 AM

GunBladeType-T said:
Do you Realize Sierra Monolith makes those games like Half Life, where you get to play as a scientist, Gordon Moore, and ID is John Carmack, they are the pioneer's of the industry. They are the one's responsible for forcing the gaming industry to update to new high end gear if you want to enjoy hi-end gaming!


Are you posting from 2004? Cause your influencers are old.

Carmack may have something with RAGE which is now owned by Bethesda, but all of the games you've listed do nothing to push current hardware. Mark Rein and Epic with UE3 do more to push today's hardware, and even they aren't pushing them to the max because it's no longer modern enough an engine to max out the capabilities of the hardware.
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August 8, 2010 5:45:52 AM

notty22 said:
And here is a new survey that shows this

Nvidia tops AMD in high-end graphics market in July: survey
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/40455/20100803/nvidia-g...


That survey shows the opposite of what you think it does, and the opposite of what he said, since MARKET SHARE WENT DOWN not up in July;

"NVDA's share came in at 55 percent, while AMD tapped 45 percent of the high-end graphics card market. In June, NVDA had 57 percent of the high-end graphic card segment, compared to AMD's 43 percent."

WOW the influence of the GTX460 or FERMI or whatever has been great at continuing to drop nV's market share and turn it over to AMD.

Of course you could call the silver lining rain, but I'm sure somehow you guys can show/spin how a loss is a gain. :p 

Notty forgot to mention the other item, which covered their success with the new products in the segment that accounts for 75% of revenue according to the same article (not that Fermi accounts for all that);

"Separately, the brokerage said its checks suggested that NVDA's new Fermibased products are not doing as well with original equipment manufacturers (OEM) as in the after-market." :whistle: 
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August 8, 2010 3:00:49 PM

Mousemonkey said:
A good argument for getting a GTX460, don't you think? :lol: 



GTX460 is a good Card, But I would wait for the next release of AMD/ATI's Die shrink, due to the game's being released more towards Christmas that I'm Waiting For! Plus getting Fusion/Onboard Graphics/Add-on Graphics Module seems too good to pass up entry level Crossfire seems like an easy upgrade to three chips, and 3 monitors! Get Gran Turismo Loaded up on 3 screens and get immersed into the game! Your literally a mechanic upgrading your Car, Fast & The Furious Drag-Racing to make cash! All you need is one of those Virtual Lap Dance Chicks on your screen dancing while you game and it's perfect! Even gives you a reason to stay inside video game, forget about the real world for now, warm up with gaming than hit the real world!
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August 8, 2010 3:06:05 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Are you posting from 2004? Cause your influencers are old.

Carmack may have something with RAGE which is now owned by Bethesda, but all of the games you've listed do nothing to push current hardware. Mark Rein and Epic with UE3 do more to push today's hardware, and even they aren't pushing them to the max because it's no longer modern enough an engine to max out the capabilities of the hardware.


Unreal is a good series too I'm a Fan of the Single Player! That artwork reminds me of Soviet-Klingon era Games! Bethesda has that Alex Denton guy for Firepower support and R&D so thats a plus! All You Need is Gas Powered Games in the Mix with Dungeon Siege 3!
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August 8, 2010 10:58:05 PM

GunBladeType-T said:
Get Gran Turismo Loaded up on 3 screens and get immersed into the game!

Did that ever get a PC release?
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August 8, 2010 11:02:04 PM

There is no die shrink coming from ATI, just some vague promises. :) 
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August 9, 2010 2:06:02 AM

Mousemonkey said:
Did that ever get a PC release?


Yu can purchase an emulator online and play PSX games on your PC!

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August 9, 2010 6:54:17 AM

notty22 said:
There is no die shrink coming from ATI, just some vague promises. :) 


Of course there is no die shrink, IT'S A DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURE ON THE SAME FAB PROCESS. :hello: 

nV is relying on some future magical change in fab to help their situation, not ATi. :pfff: 

You can say that SI or even NI is some vague promise as it/they are definitely not well defined, but that's pretty damn funny coming from a Fermi FUD booster like yourself. [:jaydeejohn:4]
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August 9, 2010 8:34:32 AM

Keep drinking the red cool aid, maybe somethings coming late quarter 3,maybe a new series, maybe just a couple additional cards.
Maybe its just not what you think its going to be ?
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August 9, 2010 1:07:03 PM

On a side note, is there even a process to shrink down to?

32nm Bulk is canceled with both Glofo and TSMC, and I doubt AMD/Nvidia want to risk it with SoC.
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August 9, 2010 2:53:50 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Of course there is no die shrink, IT'S A DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURE ON THE SAME FAB PROCESS. :hello: 

nV is relying on some future magical change in fab to help their situation, not ATi. :pfff: 

You can say that SI or even NI is some vague promise as it/they are definitely not well defined, but that's pretty damn funny coming from a Fermi FUD booster like yourself. [:jaydeejohn:4]



Thats the Gainward Golden Award Edition! You have a button on the card that you push to overclock and accelerate it from GHZ->Terrahertz!
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August 9, 2010 3:15:21 PM

notty22 said:
Keep drinking the red cool aid, maybe somethings coming late quarter 3,maybe a new series, maybe just a couple additional cards.
Maybe its just not what you think its going to be ?



You mean the Red Kool Aids Dude that jumps into the courtroom for a surprise attack commercial from Family Guy!
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August 9, 2010 3:55:26 PM

GunBladeType-T said:
You mean the Red Kool Aids Dude that jumps into the courtroom for a surprise attack commercial from Family Guy!

Yes, there is a green one to.
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August 10, 2010 2:29:16 AM

notty22 said:
Keep drinking the red cool aid,


As long as it's not whatever kool-aide your drinking that makes you unable to read your own articles. :sarcastic: 

Quote:
maybe somethings coming late quarter 3,maybe a new series, maybe just a couple additional cards.
Maybe its just not what you think its going to be ?


They always said before the end of the year maybe Sept/Oct, but unlike Fermi it's pretty likely to hit that 'before year-end' target. [:jaydeejohn]
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August 11, 2010 4:04:08 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Of course there is no die shrink, IT'S A DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURE ON THE SAME FAB PROCESS. :hello: 

nV is relying on some future magical change in fab to help their situation, not ATi. :pfff: 

You can say that SI or even NI is some vague promise as it/they are definitely not well defined, but that's pretty damn funny coming from a Fermi FUD booster like yourself. [:jaydeejohn:4]


Well first of all, I aurrently am riding on the ATi 5850 high and its a blast. I do agree that since the 5830 is a crippled Cypress (5870), it shouldnt even be competing with a GTX460. If you compare apples to Apples, is there such thing (currently) as a crippled or locked GTX480 out there?

I saw the comment stating that Nvidia hasnt truly come out with a great chip unlike the cypress in terms of heat, power reqs, output, and preformance, and thus far if one can compare the most successful chip alone, Nvidia had at least 6 months AFTER the Cypress came out to truly improve on their FERMI chip. This is still upsetting and even slight improvement on benchmarks and DX11 fps, ect wont make it as successful in terms of manufactoring and r and d standards in technology. 6 months is a long time regardless.

That being said, the gtx460 GF104 isnt really great either....
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August 11, 2010 4:19:45 AM

Also to follow up te last post I made, the Fermi was also released with the GTX480 and 470 with disabled stream processors. This is also upsetting knowing what Nvidia is capable of doing with their "marketing" campaigns.

They can simply release THE FERMI AGAIN!! With ALL the stream processors enabled and then label it as a new and improved GTX485! WOW! Then after that, they will do a GTX480X2 and a GTX495! Wouldnt this wonderful and THE MOST OBVIOUS THING TO DO NOW?

Still I believe in the Cypress and the scencerity of ATi trying to develop something early and come out early for the market to try, even if it comes out a bit too early and give a slight upper hand in terms of r and d to Nvidia. At least they tried and brought DX11 earlier than Nvidia so that developers and the industry could get used to it while Nvidia came out with a dismal and HOT chip.
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August 23, 2010 5:51:55 AM

Best answer selected by liquidsnake718.
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August 23, 2010 10:50:30 AM

This topic has been closed by Mousemonkey
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