1 SSD, 2 SSD, or 4 SSD

[amsd6969]

Hello Tom's Hardware!
I have been using this website for years, but up until now, I haven't needed to post a question and didn't feel comfortable answering one.

Anyways, I need some help from you guys with regards to a build using the Vertex 4 SSD.

So just for some background, a person owns a business and is deciding to get a computer. He is an acupuncturist and has never had a computer (he knows next to nothing about them). He says he has about 500 patients with all their files on paper, and he wants to digitize them and put them on the new computer hes having me build. I'm not sure whats the best way to store the info because I'm only 17 and don't have much experience with databases yet, but that isn't his priority so I can push off dealing with that until later.

BUT ANYWAYS, back to my question.
I want to give him the performance of a SSD, without running the risk of his files getting lost if the SSD were to go down.

My question to you is would a single vertex 4's, (2) vertex 4's configured with raid 1, or (4) vertex 4's configured with raid 10 be better? Ignore the cost of the drives please.

 

[DarkSable]

SSDs get faster as their size increases - a 512GB drive will be significantly faster than a 128GB one.

That being said, I own a 128GB Vertex 4 and love it crazy to death - it's plenty fast enough.

Also, SSDs are MORE reliable than spindle drives. I don't think you have to worry about reliability - just throw a 500GB WD blue drive in there and set things up to backup automatically.


Also, just how much money are you asking him to spend on this? An office computer doesn't really need an SSD, much less 4 of them. (Especially for someone who knows nothing about computers.)

He'd likely be happy with an i3, onboard video, and a normal hard drive - something that's actually cheaper to get as a prebuilt or kit, rather than built computer.

 

[runswindows95]

My suggestion:

One SSD for OS and Programs - 128GB should be enough
HDD for storage - 1TB are cheap
An external HDD for backup - At least the same size as the HDD
A Bluray or DVD burner for backup as well - Can't modify the files, but they are at least saved

 

[JamesSneed]

Best advice I have has nothing to do with the drives. I have been a database admin for 12+ years for a very large company and I also build computers on this side. I can tell you keeping the data safe has nothing to do with raid and everything to do with backups. Raid 10 can help loss of data in the case of a drive failure but so much else can and will happen over many years. Think virus infection, data corruption, coffee spilled on the PC, or the business catches fire. Whatever is built gets up and working for patient data, back it up and test a recovery using the backup prior to entering all the patient data. The backups need to automated and on a schedule. Also I would suggest some way to store at least one backup a week off site even if that means he takes a DVD/fash drive home with him once a week. I cant stress this enough since once he gets this up and working he will like most no longer keep any paper copies, this will become his primary place for patient data.

 

[amsd6969]

Well initially I had it set up that it cost just under 1000 with a i5 build and I thought that was definitely good enough...but this guy WANTS to spend more. He said he would rather pay for bleeding edge new parts and not have to worry about upgrading...I tried explaining he didn't need that, but he didn't listen. This new build is 1800 with the price of the SSDs included.

But I didn't know that more storage on a SSD meant better speeds, so thanks for letting me know that, but I've also heard a few horror stories about reliability with a SSD. Also my uncles SSD went bad within 3 months of having it, even though this newer model he got hasn't had a problem, I still kind of think that there's still a chance of failure. So that's why I just went crazy thinking about raid 10.

 

[amsd6969]

Best advice I have has nothing to do with the drives. I have been a database admin for 12+ years for a very large company and I also build computers on this side. I can tell you keeping the data safe has nothing to do with raid and everything to do with backups. Raid 10 can help loss of data in the case of a drive failure but so much else can and will happen over many years. Think virus infection, data corruption, coffee spilled on the PC, or the business catches fire. Whatever is built gets up and working for patient data, back it up and test a recovery using the backup prior to entering all the patient data. The backups need to automated and on a schedule. Also I would suggest some way to store at least one backup a week off site even if that means he takes a DVD/fash drive home with him once a week. I cant stress this enough since once he gets this up and working he will like most no longer keep any paper copies, this will become his primary place for patient data.

Ahh, I see your point. I was thinking about setting him up with a 1tb backup, but didn't even think of offsite backup...would uploading the data somewhere online be worth it?

 

[weilin]

I used to work IT and supervised medical charts archival.

If scanned in grayscale its a few kb a file (average 10 pages a file). 500 files wouldn't put a dent into 128gb SSD... With stuff like this access latency is much more important than throughput (though let's be honest, it would take the person more time to find the file and double click on it than for the file to open, mechanical HDs will work fine if they want to save the money).

Regardless of what you do, RAID1 is a must if you value up-time (for such a small practice, meh). RAID10 is overkill. I would also get 2 mechanical HDs for rotational backup. Have him/her swap the drives weekly and have the second drive out of the office for off-site backup (fire, etc). These drives should be encrypted (I don't know what standard you must follow by law). I HIGHLY recommend it be encrypted because patient records going home is a wonderful way for a prosecution lawyer to start a case. We ended up using truecrypt with AES-256 (free). Alternatively, you can look to online backup but I don't know where the law draws the line (I had a legal dept. I was able to ask about these things but this was before cloud storage was viable).

Due to the small size of his data, simply partitioning his OS drive would probably be good enough but if you want you "can" have 4 drives (2 for OS, 2 for data, both sets in RAID1) but all this is really overkill again.

 

[amsd6969]

My suggestion:

One SSD for OS and Programs - 128GB should be enough
HDD for storage - 1TB are cheap
An external HDD for backup - At least the same size as the HDD
A Bluray or DVD burner for backup as well - Can't modify the files, but they are at least saved

I have a DVD burner in the build, I couldn't justify wasting more money for a blu-ray burner knowing that he wouldnt use it.

But thank you for the suggestion, I want to be sure I'm taking the right steps for this guy.

 

[amsd6969]

I used to work IT and supervised medical charts archival.

If scanned in grayscale its a few kb a file (average 10 pages a file). 500 files wouldn't put a dent into 128gb SSD... With stuff like this access latency is much more important than throughput (though let's be honest, it would take the person more time to find the file and double click on it than for the file to open, mechanical HDs will work fine if they want to save the money).

Regardless of what you do, RAID1 is a must if you value up-time (for such a small practice, meh). RAID10 is overkill. I would also get 2 mechanical HDs for rotational backup. Have him/her swap the drives weekly and have the second drive out of the office for off-site backup (fire, etc). These drives should be encrypted (I don't know what standard you must follow by law). I HIGHLY recommend it be encrypted because patient records going home is a wonderful way for a prosecution lawyer to start a case. We ended up using truecrypt with AES-256 (free). Alternatively, you can look to online backup but I don't know where the law draws the line (I had a legal dept. I was able to ask about these things but this was before cloud storage was viable).

Due to the small size of his data, simply partitioning his OS drive would probably be good enough but if you want you "can" have 4 drives (2 for OS, 2 for data, both sets in RAID1) but all this is really overkill again.

I don't think I can have him swap the drives, this is his first computer...ever...
And thank you for bringing up the encryption part of it, that never occurred to me before.

 

[JamesSneed]

If you have good backups raid will not be required which comes with its own set of technical issues especially if you have a drive fail.

Personally I would want a feel for the amount of data, as 500 patients inst a lot unless we are talking various images or media files of the likes.

Also, would want to know the software chosen to store the patient data before specking out the pc as this could impact your choices for CPU. There are custom software packages for doing this type of thing.

If we are talking a simple spreadsheet / access database then a single 256GB SSD would be my choice. A single drive will have the lowest rate of failure albeit I would choose a drive from companies with a noted low failure rates like say an Intel 520 or Samsung 840 Pro. Also if it is a simple setup like mentioned then the PC really doesn't need to be very high end at all, think i5 at most.


EDIT: I just saw the post on encryption and was just about to add that as a must. Good backups and encryption are the priority. Everything else is just performance and reliability which is a much smaller issue than loosing all your data or having it stolen.

 

[amsd6969]

Okay, so the 4 SSDs were overkill by far...would you guys suggest a 512GB SSD and 1TB backup?

 

[amsd6969]

think i5 at most.

That was my original idea, but he wants the "newest and best" parts

I would want to know the software chosen to store the patient data

Okay, I'll admit I'm lost with this. I have no idea how to even begin searching for this. Any suggestions?

I would choose a drive from companies with a noted low failure rates like say an Intel 520 or Samsung 840 Pro.

Is a Vertex 4 not as good? I have read a bunch of good reviews on it.

 

[benji720]

My suggestion:

One SSD for OS and Programs - 128GB should be enough
HDD for storage - 1TB are cheap
An external HDD for backup - At least the same size as the HDD
A Bluray or DVD burner for backup as well - Can't modify the files, but they are at least saved

+1. SSDs are cheap enough to justify the price increase and a 1TB+ drive for data is a great idea. You absolutely have to have an external drive on there and I would strongly suggest using a cheap HIPAA-compliant online backup service like Carbonite for a nightly offsite backup. Lately even small practices that I work with have been getting HIPAA audits and man, are they expensive when they find violations.

 

[amsd6969]

Lately even small practices that I work with have been getting HIPAA audits and man, are they expensive when they find violations.

Crap, this is a lot to worry about, I didn't realize that this was such a big undertaking...

 

[benji720]

Crap, this is a lot to worry about, I didn't realize that this was such a big undertaking...

You just want to cover your bases. I haven't gotten any HIPAA violations on my watch but I've worked with people who have. I neglected to mention encryption but as others have posted, it's a good idea. Good luck!

 

[amsd6969]

You just want to cover your bases. I haven't gotten any HIPAA violations on my watch but I've worked with people who have. I neglected to mention encryption but as others have posted, it's a good idea. Good luck!

Thanks man, I'll be sure to do that

And okay guys, now for a pricing question...I had told him to give me 10% of parts (so 180) for building it and setting it up...am I right to think that I should explain everything that needs to be done and ask for more?

 

[Munter78]

I wouldnt use any SSDs. No need for it in terms of cost. One main drive, one external backup that can do auto backups, and set up a VPN to do a remote backup.

"Newest and best" Doesnt mean he needs hardware beyond his needs. New simple means unused. And Best should mean what is best for him. In this case...backup, backup, backup. A UPS for the onsite and remote storage as well definitely wouldnt hurt.

 

[A Bad Day]

Don't forget about security as well. Considering the fact that your client knows nothing about computers, you may have to manage the security as well.

I'm not sure which brand would be the best, but you should probably get the Internet Suite (most of them are called something like that) or an enterprise version.

Also, you need to hash AND salt any passwords the client would use. Encryption is two-way; if the hacker breaks in and gets the encryption key, game over.

Hashing is one-way; it makes the password unrecoverable. But it can be compromised with a Rainbow table attack ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_table ), so it has to be salted as well.

 

[amsd6969]

I wouldnt use any SSDs. No need for it in terms of cost. One main drive, one external backup that can do auto backups, and set up a VPN to do a remote backup.

"Newest and best" Doesnt mean he needs hardware beyond his needs. New simple means unused. And Best should mean what is best for him. In this case...backup, backup, backup. A UPS for the onsite and remote storage as well definitely wouldnt hurt.

Jeeze, you guys are really pointing out how little I know comparatively...I've never heard of a VPN used to backup data, do you have any good links that I could read to learn more about it? And do you have a specific one in mind for a UPS? I have no experience with them either.

 

[amsd6969]

Don't forget about security as well. Considering the fact that your client knows nothing about computers, you may have to manage the security as well.

I'm not sure which brand would be the best, but you should probably get the Internet Suite (most of them are called something like that) or an enterprise version.

Also, you need to hash AND salt any passwords the client would use. Encryption is two-way; if the hacker breaks in and gets the encryption key, game over.

Hashing is one-way; it makes the password unrecoverable. But it can be compromised with a Rainbow table attack ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_table ), so it has to be salted as well.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The only passwords he would have on his computer (that I can think of) are the login password, email, and the password to login to his database?

 

[omnimodis78]

Honestly the #1 issue with database systems are the back-ups! Trust me (us) with this one. Performance these days is a non-issue. SSD vs HDD, i3 vs i5 vs Phenom II - makes no "real world" difference, especially for something as mundane as databasing. But data will indeed be lost and corrupted when you least expect it, and if there is no back-up, or no "working" back-up (happens more than you can possible imagine), then no shiny Ferrari of Computers (the fastest hardware) will bring that data back! Options for a viable back-up implementation range from the practical to the paranoid, free to *very* expensive - many choices... You can't possibly over-emphasize this point to him. Also - in his case, do not forget a reliable uninterruptible power supply (UPS)! #2 reason for data corruption are brownouts! A UPS can prevent some very nasty surprises... I write all of this from experience. BTW, #1 reason for data corruption? Human error.

Don't complicate things by doing RAIDs and all that - honestly no point. Have 2 hard drives, the SSD for the system and applications, and an HDD for back-ups (this would be your basic back-up option. 9/10 times it will suffice. Only thing that can ruin this back-up plan are disasters (fire, flooding, etc.) that completely ruin the entire computer (and even then the data might be recoverable but I would not depend on that), also theft, vandalism and sabotage are real issues a business needs to plan for. The last day of the working week, do a CD/DVD back-up and have him take it with him - he should never store this at work - it should be off-site. Worst case scenario is that if EVERYTHING is lost, he will always have a physical backup with him that at the most will be missing one week's data. Or, you could just set up a Microsoft SkyDrive and zip up the back up (password protected, of course) and just send it into the cloud. Anyways, many options - these are just basic options.

 

[amsd6969]

Honestly the #1 issue with database systems are the back-ups! Trust me (us) with this one. Performance these days is a non-issue. SSD vs HDD, i3 vs i5 vs Phenom II - makes no "real world" difference, especially for something as mundane as databasing. But data will indeed be lost and corrupted when you least expected, and if there is no back-up, or no "working" back-up (happens more than you can possible imagine), then no shiny Ferrari of Computers (the best hardware) will bring that data back! Options for a viable back-up implementation range from the practical to the paranoid, free to *very* expensive - many choices... You can't possibly over-emphasize this point to him. Also - in his case, do not forget a reliable UPS! #2 reason for data corruption are brownouts! A UPS can prevent some very nasty surprises... I write all of this from experience. BTW, #1 reason for data corruption? Human error.

Do you have any good articles for me to read up on for UPS? And I honestly didn't think backing up was that big of a deal until now. I'm going to go back to my original i5 build and tweak it so that it suits his needs better. Or maybe I could get him an A10...the most expensive one is still only like 110, so it saves 100 just on the cpu alone, which could go towards a good HD for backing up instead. What do you think?

 

[benji720]

The database will probably be small, from what I understand. I'd definitely use a single SSD for booting and a regular hard drive for data because his everyday computing experience will be so much better with an SSD. In terms of stability, I still love the trusty and reliable Samsung 830. I've deployed over 200 of them and I've never once had one fail (although it hasn't been a super long time since they came out.)

I use SSDs in almost all the computers I deploy for my clients because their experience with them is so much faster overall than with a hard drive.

A UPS is a good idea, as noted above. Your client sounds like he's not running a massive business (most acupuncturists have small operations.)

In terms of pricing, you should definitely provide him with an estimate and stick to it, but I think $180 is a little on the low side. We bill at $105/hr (which is low in my area) and I'd probably bid the whole setup at 3.5 hours but I'd mark the hardware up too Either way, you'll learn a lot and make a little skrill, too.

This is a UC document, but there is a pretty good rundown of HIPAA-compliance stuff in here. I'd give it a look if you'll do more of this in the future.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CFgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.universityofcalifornia.edu%2Fhipaa%2Fdocs%2Fsecurity_guidelines.pdf&ei=2qPSUJvKN8jxigL6lYD4DQ&usg=AFQjCNEoI2Gw2Y39_54FO17lOEPRBotD2A&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE

 

[benji720]

Do you have any good articles for me to read up on for UPS? And I honestly didn't think backing up was that big of a deal until now. I'm going to go back to my original i5 build and tweak it so that it suits his needs better. Or maybe I could get him an A10...the most expensive one is still only like 110, so it saves 100 just on the cpu alone, which could go towards a good HD for backing up instead. What do you think?

Go with the i5 on this one. His overall experience will be better. As far as a UPS goes, just get something like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842102082

 

[amsd6969]

The database will probably be small, from what I understand. I'd definitely use a single SSD for booting and a regular hard drive for data because his everyday computing experience will be so much better with an SSD. In terms of stability, I still love the trusty and reliable Samsung 830. I've deployed over 200 of them and I've never once had one fail (although it hasn't been a super long time since they came out.)

I use SSDs in almost all the computers I deploy for my clients because their experience with them is so much faster overall than with a hard drive.

A UPS is a good idea, as noted above. Your client sounds like he's not running a massive business (most acupuncturists have small operations.)

In terms of pricing, you should definitely provide him with an estimate and stick to it, but I think $180 is a little on the low side. We bill at $105/hr (which is low in my area) and I'd probably bid the whole setup at 3.5 hours but I'd mark the hardware up too Either way, you'll learn a lot and make a little skrill, too.

This is a UC document, but there is a pretty good rundown of HIPAA-compliance stuff in here. I'd give it a look if you'll do more of this in the future.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CFgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.universityofcalifornia.edu%2Fhipaa%2Fdocs%2Fsecurity_guidelines.pdf&ei=2qPSUJvKN8jxigL6lYD4DQ&usg=AFQjCNEoI2Gw2Y39_54FO17lOEPRBotD2A&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE

Oh geeze, that looks like such a dry read...I guess I'll go through it tomorrow.

But thanks for the rec. on the 830, I'm looking into it now.

And yeah I knew I was selling myself short, but hes paying me 100/hr for servicing after I build it, and I'm going to talk to him about offsite backup storage to see if I have some opportunities to make a little more