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Battlefield 3: to be Vista/Win 7 only, DX11 focused.

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a b U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 7:28:26 AM

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/14494-battlefield-3-leavi...


Looks like BF3 is ditching DX9/XP when it comes out.

Great news for some people, espescially for those who decide to pick this up on PC.

However not many people have DX11 cards yet, what are people stuck on DX9 cards going to do ?

Anyways, can't wait to see what the frostbite2 engine can do paired up with multicore support and 64 bit optimizations.
a b U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 7:35:13 AM

yeah, this is a great disappointment to most people, me especially... the last time i was this disappointed was when they only brought Gears of War 2 out on Xbox!!

but yet again, me being a gamer, i think its time for me to ditch my GTX 260!
a c 358 U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 7:47:58 AM

People who are still using Win XP got two choices:

1. "Pony up", "bite the bullet", "give into the dark side"
2. Don't even bother...
Related resources
a b U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 8:18:04 AM

oh well, time to save up!!

seems the next generation is starting to catch up on me now... after almost a year on playing at full settings...

the direct proportionality of visual quality and price is killing us South Africans!!

for a GTX 480 it costs us about R7200.00 (roughly $1000-00), for one card!!

anyone up there willing to sponsor? :) 

anyways, direct X11 visuals will be awesome!!
a c 358 U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 8:18:30 AM

Well, this was bound to happen sooner or later. When did DX9 come out; 2002?

Kinda like back in 2006 when Oblivion initiated the demise of DX8.

August 5, 2010 4:52:43 PM

it is not about upgrading to newer dx version to evolve the gaming engines, it is all about selling dx11 cards, when oblivion came out it only ran on dx9 (shader models 2 and 3) which was pc exlusive then ported to next generation xbox and ps, and at the same time ps2 and xbox original were only dx8 - this is what is called evolution, but when the gaming systems(x360 and ps3) are only dx9 and can run the game but the pc needs dx11 not even dx10 not even the same shader level dx9 cards then it is all about selling cards and money and go to hell technology evolution our wallets are more important .........................
a b U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 5:45:55 PM

Right now there are 5 DX11 titles out, in the next year or so we should have around 10 more so if the user wants to play the newer games he will have to pony up just like jaguarskx stated. If the user can care less about DX11 titles then he has nothing to worry about, simple as that.

I upgraded specifically because of BC2, then when I saw the difference between my ol GTX 260 and my new 5850 I went ahead and purchased Dirt2 and Metro. I consider the jump from DX10 to DX11 quite pleasing when it comes to the visuals as opposed to DX9 vs DX10 where they were almost identical.
a b U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 9:13:52 PM

"from DICE rendering architect Johann Andersson the engine BF3 is built on -- Frostbite 2.0 -- is "primarily developed for DirectX 11"; XP and DX9 won't be supported..."


Sounds to me like you'll still be fine if you have DX10, which is to say, if you have any card fast enough to run the game decently in the first place. You're not REQUIRED to have DX11, unless I'm reading something wrong.
August 5, 2010 9:27:20 PM

capt_taco said:
"from DICE rendering architect Johann Andersson the engine BF3 is built on -- Frostbite 2.0 -- is "primarily developed for DirectX 11"; XP and DX9 won't be supported..."

Sounds to me like you'll still be fine if you have DX10, which is to say, if you have any card fast enough to run the game decently in the first place. You're not REQUIRED to have DX11, unless I'm reading something wrong.


I'm going to have to go with you on this one. He never mentioned anything about DX10.
a b U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 9:29:22 PM

I think he is specifically talking about XP, so if you have Vista or 7 you should be fine.
August 5, 2010 9:46:14 PM

DX9 won't be supported but it's just DX9. DX11 GPU won't be imposed for BF3. I want to keep my HD 4850 ^^

Trueno07 +1
a b U Graphics card
August 5, 2010 11:32:56 PM

capt_taco said:
"from DICE rendering architect Johann Andersson the engine BF3 is built on -- Frostbite 2.0 -- is "primarily developed for DirectX 11"; XP and DX9 won't be supported..."


Sounds to me like you'll still be fine if you have DX10, which is to say, if you have any card fast enough to run the game decently in the first place. You're not REQUIRED to have DX11, unless I'm reading something wrong.


Exactly.

It's going to be fine on DX10 w/ Vista/W7, it's just for XP you have to create it's own path.

It may.. [:grahamlv:3] .. MAY even support DX9 on Vista/W7 since it doesn't need it's own path, it can use fallbacks, it's just much easier to DX10 as the fallback. So it will be interesting to see if they meant;

* (XP & DX9) won't be supported (as in XP+DX9 as a combo won't be supported, but might support Vista & DX9.

or

* (XP) and (DX9) won't be supported, and in Neither XP nor any form of DX9 will be supported.

It could be either, but the former being the more logical IMO, but it may be easier and cheaper to do the later.

I would like more clarification, but I see nothing to suggest it's DX11-only as the title of this thread postulates (I'll leave it to annisman to to decide if he wants to change it, unless it cause too much confusion).

:hello: 
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 3:48:51 AM

Changed it, but now it doesn't sound like such a big deal anymore ^^


I really beleive this title will still be a huge step forward.

Edit: Sorry if I was misleading anyone, I forgot about DX10... it's just so easy to forget.
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 6:46:48 AM

Not an issue with misleading, and as long as it didn't create havoc (which it didn't) it wasn't a big issue, just maybe not as accurate as it could be.

No big whoop, and hopefully really the news isn't a big deal for most people, because it would suck for all those people who have very competent DX10/10.1 cards.
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 8:45:40 AM

Still, like somebody said about Oblivion, sometimes a single game can give the industry a kick in the pants to move forward with a new API as a standard, however it didn't try and ask people to leave an operating system (xp).
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 8:47:41 AM

And now that I think of it, there have been some games that are Vista/Win 7 only.

Halo 2, Just Cause 2 come to mind, I am sure I am missing lots.
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 2:03:59 PM

Well if you think about it, Oblivion was one of the games that was XP only, so it kinda did the same to WIn98SE and Win2K.
a c 271 U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 2:36:57 PM

Don't forget Doom 3, an XP only title to get folk off ME/95/98SE.
August 6, 2010 2:51:23 PM

Ya, the time has come to move away from a 10 year old OS and something abit more modern. You can buy a 5770 pretty cheap as well. But if you still have that ancient AGP slot with a 3DFX Voodoo 5 5500. You are truly living in the pass. lol
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 6:16:15 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Don't forget Doom 3, an XP only title to get folk off ME/95/98SE.


Yeah I forgot about that too, it did work on Win2K, but it was another one of those push you forward games.

And really that's not a bad thing, at this point in time most of the people who pay for games have already upgraded, it's usually the cheap bargain bin shoppers and cloners/privateers who haven't, so the target audience usually doesn't care.
a c 271 U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 6:20:32 PM

If BF3 is going to be one of those pushes forward then hoorah but can't we have one turning up a bit sooner please.
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 6:31:01 PM

i have been waiting for this game forever.. been 5 years since BF2 was released, this game better be superior to BC2 because the bar is pretty high ATM.
a c 125 U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 6:52:21 PM

That's quite exciting actually. Looks like finally a game to really push DX11 advancements. They're focusing on multithreading which is fantastic news, plus having all the cool DX11 lighting and tesslation effects... I can't wait, actually. Very exciting.
EDIT: They've tested multithreading up to 16 logical cores!
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 8:57:25 PM

Quote:
As long as those crappy console donot gets updated to dx11 hardware we pc user will still be presented with dual or triple threaded games.Dx11 enchancement used in a hurry in games and bad performance while enabling dx11 effect.Only few games will come which will really coded from core keeping dx11 and quard core cpu in mind.Till then dev will optimise game for console hardware and we will get those shitty console port.Like AC2.


Sony and MS are working on their next gen consoles which should have DX11/DX12 GPU's, by then we wont have to worry about games being ported. 2 more years and we should see some amazing improvements in console hardware. Right now the hardware on both consoles are extremely outdated for today's standards. This is the main reason console ports are not up to par, 30FPS with some lag here n there is not going to cut it..
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 9:13:41 PM

it wouldnt be so bad if microsoft let us use directx10 and 11 on windows xp. is there any reason why that is?
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 9:39:04 PM

infernox_01 said:
it wouldnt be so bad if microsoft let us use directx10 and 11 on windows xp. is there any reason why that is?


why give support to an OS that should have already been dropped for support (except for businesses)

honestly this is one of the things that the stagnate (IMO) PC gaming community needs, drop XP (and possible DX9 all together) and have new games written with one codepath (or 2-3 if you count consoles)

@Wolfram23 the current Frostbite 1.5 engine (BF:BC2) supports 8 threads so i am not surprised at eh 16 threads
a c 125 U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 10:01:12 PM

Much like knowing the difference between a good and bad wine, or beer, or steak - where you can't tell a difference between DX9, 10, and 11 others can. There's a lot more detail in DX11. Especially in the way of advanced lighting and shadows. A DX9 game might have just as nice textures, and acceptable lighting, but it's nothing compared to DX11. Metro 2033 has moments that blow me away with the lighting effects. That library part is one of them. Sun Rays look exceptional in DX11. Dynamic lighting is just awesome. If you look solely at textures and anti aliasing, well sure there's not a lot of difference but that has little to do with which DX version.

Plus, how does DX9 provide perfect balance between performance and eye candy when DX10 and 10.1 are almost identical but slightly tweaked and optimized versions... ie, better performance for the same or slightly better eye candy.

It's true that many people are still on XP but that's because it was a popular OS, and like many OSes it has a long life, because people don't like upgrading. They'll upgrade when they get a new PC but for many people that takes 5-10 years. I just got a PC only, what, 2 years ago which had XP. PCs being sold over the last few years are now coming with Vista and Win 7, I was probably on the tail end of the XP PCs. I just don't think gaming companies should need to worry about supporting DX9 anymore if it's going to raise their costs. I doubt a large portion of gamers have XP systems anymore, as gamers tend to be more on top of upgrading their systems. So, even tho plenty of PCs have it, only a fraction are gamer PCs.
a c 125 U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 10:42:23 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX...
There's 51 released games supporting DX10, plus a whole bunch yet to be released...

As for DX11, it's a different story. Much less people can use DX11 than DX10, not just due to OSes but also GPUs, so there's double the holdup. Even so, there's still a fair bit of support for it. DX11 games have only been released since '09 so it's been a little over a year now, and there's 9 games on this list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_DirectX...
but also the amount is set to more than double in the next half year.

New tech always takes a while to catch on as it requires not just developer support but also consumers need the right equipment. Developers want everyone to use DX11, but they're forced to keep making DX9 compatible games due to the prevalence of Win XP, even tho most people with XP could at least get DX10 out of their GPUs. Over the next couple years, XP will be completely phased out and exist only as a relic on old PCs which means universal DX10 and a lot of DX11 support. I think we're going to see an explosion in DX11 games.

Plus, aside from looks, DX11 brings some great features. Like, you know, multithreading. No point in having 4, 6, 8, or higher core CPUs for gaming if it can't be used, and gamers spend a TON on high end hardware so developers had better get with it and support it.
a b U Graphics card
August 6, 2010 11:27:50 PM

Quote:
If directx 10 and 11 is really that good then why there is less than 20games supporting.Dx10 and 11 has been out for 3yrs now..


because a company doesn't want to spend the time and effort making a DX10 game that also has a DX9 codepath, its a lot of work to do something like that (as a software dev who makes libraries for windows and unix, it sucks to possibly have to do the same thing twice)

if they could focus on just DX10/10.1/11 then it would be different as it would only be one codepath, and advanced effects that are in the new DX's are easier to implement then trying to do it in DX9 (ie ATI has had tessellation units since the HD 2xxx series that no-one used, partly because only ATI had it, but also because it was harder to use, much easier now that it is a core part of DX11)

and, i am one of the people who can tell the difference in games between DX9 and DX10 (BF:BC2 is a pretty big difference IMO)
a b U Graphics card
August 7, 2010 3:44:28 AM

Quote:
Not easy to drop dx9.Games written with dx9 provides perfect balance between eyecandy and performance.More than 60 percent user are still on winxp.I donot see dx9 dieing any time soon.


That's myopic misplaced generalities. DX9 does not provide the perfect balance, it's inefficient like the versions before it. :pfff: 
DX11 provides the current perfect balance, and DX12 will likely be better because you will improve the toolset to get rid of those areas that are at issue for developers with the current implementation. Is it necessarily a huge improvement from one to the other for the end-user, probably not, and that was not it's primary goal, nor was it for DX9.

As for XP 60% of users possibly being on XP, that's not 60% of gamers. No one cares about the people running XP on Pentium 4s or low-end integrated systems to surf the interenet and run M$ Office, it's gamers that spend money that matter, and the vast majority have moved on already.

Quote:
Is there really any huge eyecandy difference in running current dx11 games in dx9.Except for framerate.And the answer is no.that shows how good dx9 really is.


It's an easy statement to make, but what's the big advancement of DX9 over DX8.1 to you, or SM3.0 over 2.0?
The thing is you can make DX8.1 look like the effects on DX11, but it requires far more resources to achieve that same level in a game and it often requires multiple passes to achieve the same effect, and that's the point of moving it forward is to supply new options for achieving the same effect.

It's simply time to move the baseline up another notch and forget about the low-end and to properly exploit the hardware available to the vast majority of paying customers.
a c 125 U Graphics card
August 7, 2010 4:43:15 AM

^ yeah I want (my gpus) to be exploited!
a b U Graphics card
August 7, 2010 4:49:58 AM

Like somebody mentioned earlier, Metro 2033 told me all I need to know about DX11... and I like it, and now I feel like I need it.
August 7, 2010 7:00:12 AM

newer versions of directx are released to buy new cards new processors and new OS, not because they are more efficient but because this is business.
a b U Graphics card
August 7, 2010 8:19:43 AM

Quote:
At last some awasome dx11 graphics.


Lets compare to the DX10 mode first...

I also make note, and people seem to forget this, aside from Tesselation (which can't be used on a large scale due to the necessary hardware power needed), very few features of DX11 were actually graphic image improvements.
August 7, 2010 8:34:05 AM

starcraft 2 is dx9 only but it lookes a lot better than a lot of dx10 and 11 games, and it has the best cut scenes ever made in a game, at the same time it runs good at ultra settings with a very cheap system - something less than 80$ like ati 4670 or nvidia 9600gso and a cheap dual core like amd athlon 2 x2............. this means no need for high end systems to make great games with great looking graphics ...
a b U Graphics card
August 7, 2010 10:13:01 AM

i thought windows were dropping support for windows xp sp3 in 2014. they dropped support for sp2 last month. i still cant see why they don't at least put dx10 on it. its just the OS i prefer.
August 7, 2010 10:16:52 AM

I am a huge fan and seasoned player of Battlefield 2. I still play quite often. I hope Battlefield 3 doesn't take place in world war 2, or in the distant future. I'd like to see weapons and combat environments like what he see today.

My BF2 stats

http://bf2s.com/player/48462826/
August 7, 2010 1:06:15 PM

Quote:
yes u r right tessletation is a bullshit feature of dx11 it reduces framerate way to much as compared to eyecandy it provides.If next gen of dx11 card also fail to provide good framerate with tessletation on then dev will make dx11 title using very min tesletation.Like AvP,dirt2.BFbc2.


the thing that must have been done 4 years ago since the release of unified shader cards was to make use of an efficient architecture - cards no more have 48 pixel shaders and only 8 vertex, they are 64 unified minimum in what is considered a good gaming card, so they could at least double the number of vertices in the whole model to give a much better feel of the whole graphics of a game not just put some balloons in a characters clothes and say WOW look what sort of evolution we have achieved ...
August 7, 2010 5:49:08 PM

I think, I gonna wait this game before to change my HD 4850 moreover there will be HD 6000 series available by then.
a b U Graphics card
August 7, 2010 5:57:56 PM

ambam said:
I am a huge fan and seasoned player of Battlefield 2. I still play quite often. I hope Battlefield 3 doesn't take place in world war 2, or in the distant future. I'd like to see weapons and combat environments like what he see today.

My BF2 stats

http://bf2s.com/player/48462826/


it will most likely be modern

they are coming out with another game (battlefield 1943) that takes place in WW2
a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 5:01:11 AM

Quote:
yes u r right tessletation is a BS feature of dx11 it reduces framerate way to much as compared to eyecandy it provides.


It's not a BS feature it's simply crap implementations right now. You obviously don't understand the difference. :pfff: 

Same thing has happened with each previous generation, where the latest hardware was taxed and similar effects could be achieved by previous versions.

What game has ever used the latest DX features to their max soon after it's launch?
August 8, 2010 5:09:04 AM

I know a bunch of people who will be very pissed off about that.

I'm not one of them. *Caresses copy of Windows 7 64-bit and GTX 460*

Also, I always felt that the Bad Company series was a console game, and that the Battlefield series was a PC game. In the article, (or any other BF3 article I've ever read) it doesn't mention the XBox or PS3 version at all, the only mention was of "Consoles" made by the article author, and not the representative of Dice. Me thinks we will have an exclusive... for once... thats not indy... or an MMO... or RTS.
a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 5:10:32 AM

infernox_01 said:
i still cant see why they don't at least put dx10 on it.


Why would they? :heink: 
It costs resources to do and there's no motivation to do it.
You willing to pay $20-50 for a DX10 XP add-on?
a c 171 U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 5:24:49 AM

this game wont make me swap to win 7. If they are going to restrict things to win7/vista, they damn well better make it 64bit native. I don't see the point otherwise. Im still leaving my next upgrade to the release of the next elder scrolls...
a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 6:03:57 AM

What's the deal with DX11 being 'backwards compatible' with DX10 ? Does that mean it will default to DX10 ? OR will Dice entirely leave DX10 out and go DX9/DX11 ?
a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 7:02:24 AM

It's a superset, you don't need a separate path under WDDM, simply a definition of the level (DX10/10.1/11) will allow it to chose the features used by the hardware. You still need a separate path for DX9 in Vista/Win7 due to other issues, but DX10/10.1 is included in the DX11 path (10.1 being the basis for DX11). So no need to worry about completely separate paths for one or the other but you do need the DX11 version of the runtime installed even with your DX10 hardware, it won't work if you only have DX10 installed because all the backwards compatibility is handled there.

The GPUs that are currently borking the whole DX9 in Vista/Win7 are the intel GPUs since some of their DX10 GPUs do not support all levels of D3D9 so it has created compatability issues that rely on drivers from the IHV not universal support through the API.

If anything DiCE won't make it a DX9/DX11 split, more a DX10/10.1/11 split since DX9 is currently problematic and requires work with intel to optimize their drivers which is likely not a priority to anyone, not even intel.

PS, I'll see if I can find the M$ presentation material on this that will help make things a bit clearer.
a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 7:11:00 AM

Thanks alot for clearing that up Ape, and what's this about Intel having DX10 GPUS ? I have never heard of such a thing, nor that they were borked.
a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 7:35:04 AM

This is a good read. Its two years old, but explains things well.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2329314,00.a...

Quote:
Hardware Tessellation
One of the key goals for DirectX 11 is to enable more robust character authoring, while reducing the time to create complex and realistic characters. The trend has been to build characters with dense triangle meshes, then reduce the complexity depending on the target platform.

This creates a problem: The end result doesn't really jibe with the artist's conception.

Artists and game designers have been pushing for characters with denser triangle meshes, which enable more detailed characters. Animation complexity is also increasing. The net result is fewer pointy heads and moonwalking characters.

More detailed characters with increasingly complex animation eats into memory and storage requirements. This results in bandwidth issues—load times increase, and memory demands on graphics cards go up.


Quote:
Improved Texture Compression and Hardware Support
Today's DirectX texture compression is showing its age. When multiple textures are decompressed and displayed, the results are often blocky looking textures, even when the textures themselves are high resolution. On top of that, there's no support for compression of high dynamic range textures.

DirectX 11 introduces two new texture formats, BC6 (sometimes called BC6H) and BC7. BC6 supports HDR textures with 6:1 lossy compression (16 bits per channel.) This allows for high visual quality, but it's not lossless.

BC7 works with LDR (low dynamic range) formats, and can include alpha. It offers 3:1 compression for RGB or 4:1 for RGB + alpha. Visual quality should be very high with this format.

Microsoft will now require that DX11 hardware decompress textures in such a way to be completely accurate with the DX11 spec. Currently, there's some room for "interpretation" in the way that DX10 and below hardware handles texture decompression.

The block types are designed to offer smoother gradients and much less blocky results.


Quote:
Support for DirectX 10 Hardware
Quite a few features—with the exception of hardware tessellation—will be supported on DX10 hardware. Of course, DX10 hardware will continue to run games and apps in DX10 mode. But unlike DX10, which only runs on DX10-compliant hardware, elements of DX11-specific features will also run on DX10 hardware.

Multithreading will work, although deferred contexts will have to be implemented at the API (software) level rather than in the hardware. The object oriented features added should also work, though how efficiently is anyone's guess. The new texture compression formats could be implemented at the driver level, though that would be slower than dedicated hardware.

a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 10:49:13 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
Why would they? :heink: 
It costs resources to do and there's no motivation to do it.
You willing to pay $20-50 for a DX10 XP add-on?


it would still be alot cheaper then buying windows 7 so yeh I would.
a b U Graphics card
August 8, 2010 3:56:54 PM

infernox_01 said:
it would still be alot cheaper then buying windows 7 so yeh I would.


Yeah, I don't believe you. :pfff: 
What's the issue with buying Win7 ?
!