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MSI GeForce GTX 460 HAWK gets uncovered - reaches 1 GHz

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a b Î Nvidia
August 7, 2010 7:49:34 PM

impressive
a b Î Nvidia
August 7, 2010 7:51:00 PM

Nice find thanks for sharing

Mactronix
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August 7, 2010 8:45:08 PM

wow. 2 bad i have to skip this generations of gpus.
a b Î Nvidia
August 7, 2010 8:48:48 PM

That is impressive. I noticed there's a Asus DirectCU version of the card on newegg now as well. I wonder if that can do something similar.
August 7, 2010 9:17:16 PM

mmmm....looks tasty, though i am with jimishtar (as i have 2 x 4870's)
a b Î Nvidia
August 7, 2010 9:31:31 PM

jyjjy said:
That is impressive. I noticed there's a Asus DirectCU version of the card on newegg now as well. I wonder if that can do something similar.


I agree, its very impressive. First mention of 1ghz that I've read that sounds reasonably possible for the enthusiast.
Amazon put the o/c top direct cu on sale, it went from immediate shipping to two weeks in a matter of hours.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003WUXNPO/ref=oss_pro...
a b Î Nvidia
August 7, 2010 9:35:27 PM

Hope they slap the copper Twin Frozr heatsink on the GTX465 on this thing....
August 7, 2010 9:41:02 PM

notty22 said:
I agree, its very impressive. First mention of 1ghz that I've read that sounds reasonably possible for the enthusiast.
Amazon put the o/c top direct cu on sale, it went from immediate shipping to two weeks in a matter of hours.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003WUXNPO/ref=oss_pro...

Asus for GPu... only if you want problems. Worst maker IMO now. It's nowhere the Asus we have known during the Thunderbird days.
August 7, 2010 9:54:55 PM

And I...

...in my pants

I must say, this damn GTX 460 thing is making it hard for me to wait for SI for an upgrade!
a b Î Nvidia
August 7, 2010 10:54:14 PM

Timop said:
Hope they slap the copper Twin Frozr heatsink on the GTX465 on this thing....


the cyclone cooler is better, I have the MSI Twin Frozr on my MSI GTS250, its also very good.
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 2:30:33 AM

The Cyclone is awesome, u can see a full review here
August 8, 2010 2:45:25 AM

AMD needs to either hurry up and lower prices, release a new card to go against the 460, maybe a 5790, only spot left :lol:  , or to hurry up and release SI. With OC's like this, this card covers about every spot on the reasonable market. Looks like a great card though. Although i wish MSI video cards were as good looking as their motherboards :(  :lol: 
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 2:52:51 AM

If the MSI GPUs OC in that level I don't care the aspect of the GPU I want one.....oh...wait I already have one :) 
August 8, 2010 2:55:08 AM

:cry:  Ill trade you my 4890? Do the math, 4890/460=10.6, therefore, the 4890 is 10.6x faster! Its a steal! :lol:  :lol: 
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 3:12:36 AM

ares1214 said:
:cry:  Ill trade you my 4890? Do the math, 4890/460=10.6, therefore, the 4890 is 10.6x faster! Its a steal! :lol:  :lol: 


Sound like a good deal I gone a think in that :lol: 
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 6:47:57 PM

I dont know where AMD/ATI are targeting with the SI cards i heard it wasnt a top to bottom thing and just a couple of cards would be released.
If they are looking at this area then i just dont see how they can price a card or where they can put it ??

Mactronix
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 7:59:28 PM

What do you mean "how they can price a card or where they can put it?"
They can release it at whatever price they think makes sense and will make them money. Just look at the GTX 460 itself. The card's price/performance made no sense in the context of a lineup that already had the GTX 465 but Nvidia released it anyway.
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 10:04:19 PM

Oh I think you are clever enough to know exactly what I mean. Just to be clear I think that within the price/performance structure of what AMD/ATI have out now and adding to that where Nvidia have placed the 460 that its going to be very tricky to find a price/performance point to target a card that would for arguments sake say perform above a 5770 and below a 5850.

The important thing to stress in this post is that im saying within the price/performance structure AMD/ATI have now.
If they want to start cutting prices then its a different kettle of fish. They haven't exactly been falling over themselves to react price wise to the 460 though have they ? So I cant see them bringing in a new tech at a lower price than the older tech when they wont drop the price of the older tech.

So that leaves them trying to place a card that is dearer than a 5770 and would probably perform at a guess around the 5830 area, so thats a similar card to the 460 then.
Of course it all depends on exactly what they bring to the table, and some will just blindly buy either Red or Green so having two very similar cards at the same price/performance isn't necessarily a bar to making sales.

Until we find out whats coming, and so far the rumours are saying its not that special. We can only go on what we know and what I know is that the 460 is one hell of a card at one hell of a price, it overclocks like a demon and covers a huge performance area. On the other hand ATI cards are dearer than they could/should be, the performance isnt bad, far from it. Unfortunatly as of late they have been very specific with the performance range of the cards, so if they keep to the practice of keeping the cards to a definate performance window then the performance range will be small compared to the 460.

I hope im wrong and I hope AMD/ATI put out a stella card that blows the 460 away, just dont see it though :( 

Mactronix
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 10:21:04 PM

Hmm. I just don't know why you would think that is a valid way to look at a company introducing a new series of cards. The new cards aren't really meant to the compete with their current lineup, they are meant to replace them. Just like the HD5750/HD5770/HD5830 replaced the HD4850/HD4870/HD4890. There's no reason to think ATI is worried about selling less of their current series because people are buying their new series. Their new series is what they want to sell and they will position in a price/performance ratio that is attractive to the consumer compared to the Nvidia lineup while phasing out the older cards and/or lowering their prices. This is what happens every generation.
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 10:30:13 PM

^+1 and not only with GPU is the same for CPU, mobos, coolers...everything.
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 10:42:38 PM

Come on you know there is never a direct replacement, the new gen overlaps with the old gen somewhere and the pricing of the new gen has nothing to do with selling to the consumer. They price the new gen where they want it and jack up the price of the older gen to make the newer cards look more atractive. Phasing out and lowering the prices dosent work in reality either the 4 series cards are still out there and took an age to come down in price.

Mactronix
a b Î Nvidia
August 8, 2010 10:54:34 PM

That only happened with the last series because Nvidia dropped the ball for a while and ATI had no competition really. Now they actually have something on the market from another company to compete against and if you think they aren't going to price the cards competitively then I guess all I can say is I think you are incorrect.
ATI has a real opportunity to twist the screws on Nvidia right now imo. The HD5000 series actually is overpriced. Not for their performance compared to the Nvidia cards but compared to the actual manufacturing costs. If they drop the prices on the HD5000 cards while introducing new, better cards than what Nvidia is offering at the same price points Nvidia will have to respond by cutting prices when their margins are supposedly very small as it is.
August 9, 2010 3:18:16 AM

actually, IMO, the vast majoirty of the 5xxx series isnt over priced. The only parts that are/were over priced were made over priced due to the release of the gtx 460. With a price drop of $20-40 on both the 5850 and 5830, this problem is more or less fixed, and the 460 loses all the hype going with it. Everything is overpriced for its manufacturing cost, they have to make money too!!! :lol:  Also, its not very fair to compare the costs to manufacturing costs. If the i7 costs $120 to make, that doesnt mean intel should sell it for $150, they sell it based on competition. Of course previous generation series of cards "overlap" with newer ones, but they dont really want that. ATI did a very good job with filling all the holes in the budget sectors, possibly least with the 200-250$ sector, where they later released the 5830, and nvidia perfectly placed the 460. Yes, the 4890 held the spot, but they intend to entirely replace every previous card with a new card of greater or equivalent performance. Forward progress, eh?
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 10:17:22 PM

When they released the 5770 it was priced at $159 and a 4870 was $135 give or take a few bucks. Where is the price now ? Well a quick look on New egg shows the 5770 between $174 and 155 and the 4870 still available a full 10 months after the 5770 launch at $160-135.
So no movement at all there then, except both cards have crept up slightly. Why is this ? cant be supply and demand because just about everything they have moved since the 5 series was listed has been a DX11 part according to the sales figures.
What ATI did was a very clinical job of filling in the performance sectors by killing any performance gains that the end user might get from overclocking the cut down cards by slashing either the SP/s or the bus.

The 5770 has always been hidiously over priced by about 20% on a purely performance basis, ATI were banking on the feature set to sell the extra cost to the buyer. Problem is the feature set needs the power of the 5850 + to be effective and so they were basically charging what they could get away with based on Nvidia not having an answer. When Nvida did this sort of thing back with the 8800 cards they were called all sorts of names but it seems people want to make excuses for ATI.
The 5850 and 5870 were a different performance segment and were well priced but the 460 has changed that.
ATI have had the chance to compete on price and chose not to. They cant now compete on performance so that leaves them in the position that so many have sneered at Nvidia over the years for being in, that position being relying on fan boys to buy their mid range cards.
And all this posting is coming from an ATI fan who has never used a Nvidia GPU in his life.

Mactronix {edit for spelling}
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 10:31:23 PM

mactronix said:
When they released the 5770 it was priced at $159 and a 4870 was $135 give or take a few bucks. Where is the price now ? Well a quick look on New egg shows the 5770 between $174 and 155 and the 4870 still available a full 10 months after the 5770 launch at $160-135.
So no movement at all there then, except both cards have crept up slightly. Why is this ? cant be supply and demand because just about everything they have moved since the 5 series was listed has been a DX11 part according to the sales figures.
What ATI did was a very clinical job of filling in the performance sectors by killing any performance gains that the end user might get from overclocking the cut down cards by slashing either the SP/s or the bus.

The 5770 has always been hidiously over priced by about 20% on a purely performance basis, ATI were banking on the feature set to sell the extra cost to the buyer. Problem is the feature set needs the power of the 5850 + to be effective and so they were basically charging what they could get away with based on Nvidia not having an answer. When Nvida did this sort of thing back with the 8800 cards they were called all sorts of names but it seems people want to make excuses for ATI.
The 5850 and 5870 were a different performance segment and were well priced but the 460 has changed that.
ATI have had the chance to compete on price and chose not to. They cant now compete on performance so that leaves them in the position that so many have sneered at Nvidia over the years for being in, that position being relying on fan boys to buy their mid range cards.
And all this posting is coming from an ATI fan who has never used a Nvidia GPU in his life.

Mactronix {edit for spelling}



Good post.
Ati engineered the 5830 to not be successful, because imo, they never wanted to be in position to have to use a potential 5850/5870 to fill 5830' orders, if the card developed a popular following. As being a fast cheaper alternative to the 5850.
Its sort of the opposite problem stemming from having the gpu based on their large gpu.

So will ATI be working on a Juniper replacement ? To compete against the G104, its going to have to be bigger :) 
August 9, 2010 10:32:25 PM

The 5770 is about $140-150, the 4870 is about $130-140. The 5770 runs 10-20 C cooler, uses a lot less power (50-75 less watts), is almost 1.5" shorter. I forget overclocking, but id assume the 5770 OC's higher as well. Not to mention nice little features like eyefinity (which like you said, the 5770 wont game well with eyefinity) and DX11, which isnt out much, but still. I think all those put together make the 5770 worth the extra 10 or 20 bucks.
August 9, 2010 10:34:31 PM

notty22 said:
Good post.
Ati engineered the 5830 to not be successful, because imo, they never wanted to be in position to have to use a potential 5850/5870 to fill 5830' orders, if the card developed a popular following. As being a fast cheaper alternative to the 5850.
Its sort of the opposite problem stemming from having the gpu based on their large gpu.

So will ATI be working on a Juniper replacement ? To compete against the G104, its going to have to be bigger :) 


I agree, ATI failed in the mid range, and the lower end fermis will likely blow the 57xx and 56xx out of the water. Although the rumored ddr3 on GF108 worries me. The 5830 was a horrible, horrible card, and in one of the most important segments.
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 10:46:50 PM

mactronix said:
When they released the 5770 it was priced at $159 and a 4870 was $135 give or take a few bucks. Where is the price now ? Well a quick look on New egg shows the 5770 between $174 and 155 and the 4870 still available a full 10 months after the 5770 launch at $160-135.
So no movement at all there then, except both cards have crept up slightly. Why is this ? cant be supply and demand because just about everything they have moved since the 5 series was listed has been a DX11 part according to the sales figures.
What ATI did was a very clinical job of filling in the performance sectors by killing any performance gains that the end user might get from overclocking the cut down cards by slashing either the SP/s or the bus.

The 5770 has always been hidiously over priced by about 20% on a purely performance basis, ATI were banking on the feature set to sell the extra cost to the buyer. Problem is the feature set needs the power of the 5850 + to be effective and so they were basically charging what they could get away with based on Nvidia not having an answer. When Nvida did this sort of thing back with the 8800 cards they were called all sorts of names but it seems people want to make excuses for ATI.
The 5850 and 5870 were a different performance segment and were well priced but the 460 has changed that.
ATI have had the chance to compete on price and chose not to. They cant now compete on performance so that leaves them in the position that so many have sneered at Nvidia over the years for being in, that position being relying on fan boys to buy their mid range cards.
And all this posting is coming from an ATI fan who has never used a Nvidia GPU in his life.

Mactronix {edit for spelling}

Perhaps you have never used an Nvidia card but from all your posts I've seen recently you have certainly switched sides. You seem to give ATI no credit and Nvidia much more than they are due. It sounds like you got really upset that they choose to deliver power efficiency/eyefinity/DX11/ect. this generation rather than attempting to surpass their last generation in terms of price/performance. Now you can't see anything they have done or might do with a clear perspective. You are even blaming them when really Nvidia is more to blame.
What happened with this generation was demand was high, supply was low and competition was nonexistent because Nvidia inexplicably jacked the prices of the GTX 260/275 around the launch of the HD5000 series. The initial Fermi cards were kind of lackluster in terms of price/performance at initial prices and had the added power/heat/noise issues to make the ATI cards look more appealing so still ATI had no real incentive to lower prices. This is why ATI has been able to lock down the prices of their current series for such an extended period. As with any business they charge what the consumer is willing to pay. That is simply the way capitalism works. Getting upset at them for being a business who has a goal of making money is silly. Only with the recent release of the GTX 460 and the price drops on the GTX 470 are ATI finally having to deal with competition.
While it is true they seem not to have responded anyway it does make some sense in context of where they are in their release cycle. Rather than slash prices and ramp up production on cards that will soon be outdated by the next series they have decided to wait it out and let supply dwindle before the next launch. Perhaps it would've been nicer for the consumer to see a price war but it makes sense for them from a business perspective. All it will do is delay the price war anyway. By the end of the year the HD6000 cards will be out and Nvidia should have a whole new array of low/midrange cards based on the GF104/106/108. THAT is when we will see real competition that has been missing from the market for a long while now.
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 10:52:49 PM

ares1214 said:
The 5770 is about $140-150, the 4870 is about $130-140. The 5770 runs 10-20 C cooler, uses a lot less power (50-75 less watts), is almost 1.5" shorter. I forget overclocking, but id assume the 5770 OC's higher as well. Not to mention nice little features like eyefinity (which like you said, the 5770 wont game well with eyefinity) and DX11, which isnt out much, but still. I think all those put together make the 5770 worth the extra 10 or 20 bucks.


No [:lectrocrew:1] Yet again I have just this minuite come from the New egg site and 5770 cards start at $155 NOT $140 and go up to $174 and thats not including the specialist cards.
The 4870 cards start at $135 and go up to $175.
Performance is what matters, all this talk of power usage and card size smacks of a drowning man clinging to straws to me. None of this actually matters to most users and those who do care about power etc are not looking for best performance anyway.
The issue is not the extra 10-20 bucks but where they are in the price of things.

Mactronix
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:01:14 PM

mactronix said:
The 4870 cards start at $135 and go up to $175.
This is a recent thing. Up until the last 2 months or so you could not buy an HD4870 for less than the HD5770 and the cheapest HD5770 on newegg is $150 with free shipping while the cheapest HD4870 is $135 with free shipping. If you don't consider the various ways the HD5770 is superior outside of performance to be worth $15 then that is your own perspective but I assure you you are in the minority.
August 9, 2010 11:03:23 PM

jyjjy said:
This is a recent thing. Up until the last 2 months or so you could not buy an HD4870 for less than the HD5770.


back in April i had to spend $160 to get the same model of my current 4870 1GB (it looks better if they match IMO)
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:18:21 PM

@ jyjjy
No I have yet to switch sides as you put it but its very tempting.
ATI stated their market strategy was better power/pref and once they had a chance it was charge what we can while we can. That's business and I accept that, doesn't mean i have to like it. So yes im pissed off that a company I have supported through all its bad times jumped on the gravy boat the first chance it got.
In hindsight I was an idiot to not go with the better performing 8800 cards at the time and as the main issue that was around back then isn't an issue now then again yes its Very tempting to take the performance and run.
People keep quoting "power efficiency/eyefinity/DX11" None of that is worth a dime. Most gamers at this level don't have 3 screens, some don't have what most of us would call a decent screen, DX11, not relevant. What games do you know that are made because of it ? Power efficiency ? well if you cant run a 4870 then chances are your rig cant use a 5770 anyway.
Ramping up production is just a stupid suggestion that no one except you has mentioned. Yea right lets make loads of cards that are going to be outdated in a couple of months [:mousemonkey:5]
Cutting prices on whats left to clear the shelves of whats left. Now that would make sense but AMD/ATI are being stubborn about it and one could say almost arrogant, like Nvidia were back when they had a lead.

Mactronix
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:29:22 PM

That is what I'm saying, it wouldn't make sense to ramp up production. Clearly they think the cards at their current price are selling enough to clear the inventory they have now to satisfactory levels before the launch of the new cards. In that sense your suggestion they cut prices is the same as telling them to increase supply which as you seem to agree makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:30:56 PM

jyjjy said:
This is a recent thing. Up until the last 2 months or so you could not buy an HD4870 for less than the HD5770 and the cheapest HD5770 on newegg is $150 with free shipping while the cheapest HD4870 is $135 with free shipping. If you don't consider the various ways the HD5770 is superior outside of performance to be worth $15 then that is your own perspective but I assure you you are in the minority.



Thats very true if you are buying from scratch but im looking from the upgraders point of view which i think is where our differing of opinion has stemed from.
If you are buying a new rig and card then the 5770 is obviously the way to go, but that dosent take away from the way the price is held up by the older cards not dropping in price which rail roads you into the exact thinking you are using to justify the extra cost of the newer card that isnt that much better performance wise.

Mactronix
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:34:56 PM

jyjjy said:
That is what I'm saying, it wouldn't make sense to ramp up production. Clearly they think the cards at their current price are selling enough to clear the inventory they have now to satisfactory levels before the launch of the new cards. In that sense your suggestion they cut prices is the same as telling them to increase supply which as you seem to agree makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.



But if they cared about or wanted to clear inventory then why can i still buy any 4 series card i want to ?
As far as not making sense this really dosent. You posted."In that sense your suggestion they cut prices is the same as telling them to increase supply which as you seem to agree makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.[/quotemsg]" On what metric do you make price cutting and ramping production the same thng ?

Mactronix
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:36:45 PM

Looking at some original launch reviews I found this chart.

I remember reading , those were the launch prices of the , as shown.
4870- 300
4850- 200
The older ATI cards were priced up to 50% off their launch prices a very long time ago.
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:40:03 PM

mactronix said:
People keep quoting "power efficiency/eyefinity/DX11" None of that is worth a dime.

Actually it is worth money. Specifically the power efficiency is worth money in a very literal way. For example the HD4870 is one of the least power efficient cards on the market at idle using about 70-75w while the HD5770 uses 15-20w. This is equivalent to leaving a 60w lightbulb on at all times for people that leave their computer running 24/7 as I and many others do. Over time that adds up to a real amount of money and the difference in power usage covers that initial $15 in price within about half a year(estimate, I haven't actually done the math.)
It's easy to just say nothing but performance and price matter but even from the most basic, practical perspective it just isn't appropriate.
a b Î Nvidia
August 9, 2010 11:44:31 PM

mactronix said:
But if they cared about or wanted to clear inventory then why can i still buy any 4 series card i want to ?
As far as not making sense this really dosent. You posted."In that sense your suggestion they cut prices is the same as telling them to increase supply which as you seem to agree makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.
" On what metric do you make price cutting and ramping production the same thng ?

Mactronix[/quotemsg]
What is the point of cutting prices if not to sell more cards? They wouldn't be doing it as a personal favor to you because you think it is the right thing to do. They would do it to sell more cards. If they don't have enough to cover the added demand obviously they will need to make more cards. If I remember properly this is specifically what they said when they said they weren't going to be lowering prices; the current demand matches the supply they have to deliver.
August 10, 2010 12:27:08 AM

If you count MIR, the 5770 goes as low as $130, but assuming we arent counting that, its about $150 at newegg, and $140 at other places:

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SKUSearch_v3.asp?px=FO&scrit...

how do effieciency, temperatures, overclocking, eyefinity, size, availablity and dx11 all mean nothing????
August 10, 2010 12:29:51 AM

for the record, at 11 cents a kilowatt (what it is where i live) 60 watts in savings for power consumption is about $60 a year. At load even more.
!