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Faking 120 hz????

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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August 15, 2010 6:25:25 AM

Hello, i have a question. when you're watching a 120 hz display, that means you're outputting more frames per second per hertz ping. Now, afterward, if you were to take a 75 hz monitor, and out two frames persecond per refresh ping, that is, the screen moves two frames per Hertz Ping, do you think you can fake 150Hz? this is just me doing some research and not wanting to go out and buy myself a 120 hertz monitor. i'd rather get something touchscreen.

so if @ 75hz = 2fps = 150 hz thoroughput.

do you think i'm right about something, that it's possible to run something like 3d nvision glasses? from nvidia? just a question.

More about : faking 120

August 15, 2010 6:28:47 AM

what if they came up with technology called the 2-sync? or sometihng.
where vsync syncs a frame to the refresh ping,
what if you're outputting two fps per hertz ping.
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 6:47:50 AM

I suggest you go back and do more research. If I'm understanding you correctly, its not possible. 75hz means you can only do 75FPS. You could double each frame, but it won't get you 3D vision.
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August 15, 2010 7:00:28 AM

IF for example, you make the FPS the graphics card output flicker too, you're flickering with the monitor too, i may be a little off, but if you flicker in time between flickers, won't that double your refresh rate?
hmmm.....
what i mean to say is, flicker from the graphics card, in tune with the monitor hertz flicker, do you think you could double refresh rates.

flickin' aye....
:p 



and if there's a bottle neck of refresh rate, vs graphic output, you the graphic card can definitely work faster than the bottleneck.
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 7:12:49 AM

You clearly have no idea how the 3D Vision system operates. The whole system is based on every other frame being viewed by one eye and not the other through the use of shutter glasses. If you were to somehow force your monitor to skip every other frame it would simply look like slightly off center and dim 2D.
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 7:28:47 AM

He's asking you to display a frame "in time between flickers," of the monitor I think. I don't think he has any clue how a monitor works either.

You can't just add the 75Hz from the monitor and 75FPS in the game and get 150Hz. It doesn't work like that.
August 15, 2010 7:33:27 AM

1. double the output FPS of what the graphics is outputting. OVERCLOCK.

then, you
2. JUSt how a monitor has refresh rates to display stuff, out put the entire image as a refresh rate induced image itself.
3. so in relation,

a. the monitor flickers inbetween the flicker of the monitor refresh rate.
b. The shutter glasses then syncs to the refresh rate of the monitor AND the faked refresh rate through your glasses.

what i mean to say is,
why not have refresh rates work at two levels, instead of just the monitor.
and the graphic card just syncs in between the monitor's....
just like v-sync works.
y'dig?



a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 7:49:53 AM

sherryafzal said:
y'dig?

No, I have no clue what you are trying to say to be honest.
The refresh rate of a monitor is the physical limit of the number of images the screen can display per second. The graphics card has no ability what so ever to force the screen to display more images per second than the refresh rate. All you could theoretically do is skip every other frame which would be worse than pointless in the context of 3D Vision as I explained earlier.
Theoretically Nividia could have allowed people to use 60hz displays but they didn't for several reasons. The effective frames per second would be limited to 30 and the refresh rate for each eye would be 30hz both of which would make for a very poor gaming experience.
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 8:00:28 AM

+1

what you are suggesting is impossible.

you can't put anything 'between' those 60 refreshes. if you could, it would be a 120hz monitor already.
August 15, 2010 8:06:04 AM

hmmm. even at the graphic card level, eh?
thought i was on to something.
oh well.
:p 
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 8:08:14 AM

the video card simply send the image to the monitor. the monitor can only refresh 60 times a second. so regardless of what its receiving, you will still only be seeing 60 updates a second. its a physical limitation, not a software one.
August 15, 2010 8:10:05 AM

but you're saying a monitor would refresh at 60 updates a second.
now, on the graphic card level, if you were updating at 60 frames EXTRA a second,
wouldn't the thorough output be a lot more than just simply 120 hz?
hmmmm
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 8:12:58 AM

no, the monitor can only update at 60 frames per second. its THAT simple. are you trolling?

try this analogy, if you have to draw a picture of the scene in front of you. and you average say 30 pictures per hour. if the image you are looking at speeds up, the people speed up or whatever, you can still only draw the same number of pictures per hour. just because you have more information coming in, doesn't mean you can output more. get it?

its much more complicated, but i get the feeling you aren't going to understand it in such terms.

to put it in the most simple, but relevant terms: the GPU can RENDER more frames than 60 per second, but the monitor CAN NOT display them. it can physically refresh only 60 times per second. so any extra frames rendered will not be seen.
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 8:17:33 AM

sherryafzal said:
hmmm. even at the graphic card level, eh?

What do you mean at the graphics card level? You don't look at the graphics card, you look at the monitor. The monitor can display a certain number of images per second which is the definition of "refresh rate." The refresh in refresh rate refers to the monitor replacing the current image with a new one. If it could do that more frequently then by definition it would have a higher refresh rate.
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 8:51:13 AM

I'm on my cr@ppy laptop at work, does anyone have one of those links handy that shows how a refresh rate works? Vsync? If the OP gets a better understanding of how this stuff works he might see whats going on.
August 15, 2010 9:10:16 AM

hmm. i get it.
what 3d vision (nvidia) does is it syncs to the LCD shutter/Refresh rate and transmits left and right images to the left and right eye respectively.

i could be wrong, apparently. if 3d graphics cards flickered too (their output), along with the monitor, along with the 3d shutter glasses, in a sync, you'd think that would work.

graphics cards could refresh and feed the monitor, monitors could squeeze in the extra refresh rate, and the nvidia nvision could catch it alongways.

you have to think a little beyond what current technology offers. but i think a driver should work.

it's just a theory. could work, i could be wrong, but it was worth posting about.
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 9:19:24 AM

no, its coulsnt work, its not worth posting about.

you are completely failing to understand how this works, despite it being made plainly simple.

you can't 'squeeze in' more refresh rate any more than you could squeeze out an extra monitor. you are asking a GPU to create matter and change the laws of physics. if you accomplish that, you deserve a nobel prize.
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 9:57:25 AM

Sherry, go look up screen tearing and Vsnyc. You can send extra images to a monitor all the time. If your system makes 120FPS and your monitor has a 60Hz refresh rate you'll only see 60 of those frames. There is no way to force more frames to be shown, or time them in such a way that something extra is possible.

You seem to not understand a very basic monitor principle. 60Hz means the monitor updates the image 60 times every second. Every 1/60th of a second the pixels on the monitor will change color as the video card/system tells it. There is no way to force an extra change. If you want more, you need to buy a 120Hz/different monitor.
August 15, 2010 3:40:52 PM

I see some new screen rates now that are 240mhz..........................................
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 4:16:10 PM

240mhz? WOW!

Are they real 240Hz screens or just showing the same frame 4 times to make it smoother?
a b C Monitor
August 15, 2010 4:18:16 PM

HD TV interpolation technique that is marketed as 120HZ, 240HZ are not real refresh rate. HD movies like Blue Ray is recorded at 24HZ 1080P. That’s the information recorded on the disc. The 120HZ / 240 HZ HDTV reprocess the recorded information from the disc to improve the quality of video. It is a marketing jargon but not real120HZ/240HZ refresh rate on the screen.

NVIDIA's 120HZ HDTV capable Monitor and TV is capable of 120 HZ refresh rate for different purpose. Using HDMI 1.4 2 sets of Video frames are sent to the 3D Monitor or 3D HDTV. That is

One frame for the left eye
One frame for the right eye
The 3d Glasses blank one of the eye when the frame on the screen is for the other and vice versa.

3D Monitor and 3D HDTV are capable of real 120HZ refresh rate.

Again this is different for the misnomer 120HZ/240HZ interpolation of Non-3D HDTV.

a b C Monitor
August 16, 2010 2:06:05 AM

Quote:
Are they real 240Hz screens or just showing the same frame 4 times to make it smoother?


the latter.

i think it will be some time before we see genuine 240hz screens, if at all. im not sure there would be any real benefit to such a high refresh rate. though getting a full 120FPS while in 3d mode would be pretty cool.
August 16, 2010 3:52:51 AM

Got a question here guys, I bought a new 120HZ monitor, but used my 'old' DVI cable, it was not a 'dual link dvi cable' which is what you need to run 120HZ. Anyways, when I tried out Nvidia 3d Vision, it worked just fine, even with the standard DVI cable.

When I tried to change my desktop to 120hz it wouldn't let me because I needed a dual link dvi cable, I then changed it and 120hz works fine now on my desktop.

My question is this: How did 3D work just fine when it was physically impossible to be running at 120Hz without the dual link cable ? Also, how did all my games run at 120 hz (I changed them in the video settings to 1920x1200 120hz) ? Somebody please explain why the only thing different with the dual link dvi cable is my desktop refresh rate, thanks.
a b C Monitor
August 16, 2010 6:23:17 AM

it was probably still refreshing at 60hz, so you were getting only 30hz/fps per eye.

it just thought it was running correctly due to detecting a 120hz monitor. i assume thats an unintended bug that will be patched. Nv don't want people getting 3d at 60hz.

and jyjy, cool article, but i don't see what it has to do with my post?
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 16, 2010 8:41:47 AM

welshmousepk said:
and jyjy, cool article, but i don't see what it has to do with my post?

With 240hz you could have two people viewing different 3D content on the same monitor or 4 people all viewing different 2D content. 4 player death match all on the same screen? Pretty sweet idea.
a b C Monitor
August 16, 2010 10:49:03 AM

oh i see, i didn't actually catch that in the article (just thought it was about downgrading 3d...)

a remember a couple years back, before the resurgence of this 3d fad, i had read about TVs that used interpolated images and glasses similar to those uses for 3d, as a means of displaying two things at once. at the time i thought it seemed cool, but i haven't heard more on it in a while.
to me its much more exciting than 3d, which still seems like a gimmick.

I wonder if that tech could be easily replicated on current 120hz monitors and 3d setups? intriguing...



a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 16, 2010 11:29:19 AM

welshmousepk said:
I wonder if that tech could be easily replicated on current 120hz monitors and 3d setups? intriguing...

That is what they are actually using in the article, although I don't know if you consider "opening the glasses up, soldering things like shutters and IR receivers, bridging this and that" easy per say... I was just pointing out that 240hz would allow for even more possibilities.
Basically all they are doing is making both shutters go on at once instead of alternating between eyes. It's fairly trivial, I'm sure Nvidia could have designed the glasses to do it easily had they wanted to.
a b C Monitor
August 16, 2010 11:53:14 AM

i was thinking about allowing it on a software level though.

as in, new GPU driver (including a driver for the IR transmitter) with the existing 3d vision setups. if Nv (or anyone else with the know how) wanted to, it could be done without the need to solder anything right?

lets hope someone gets onto that. it would actually make an awesome solution for 60hz monitors. I'd rather cut my framerate in half, than my screen real estate. could make for much simpler Multiplayer sessions without a LAN.
August 16, 2010 3:53:59 PM

Now someone needs to relate all that has been discussed to human persistance of vision. (another physical limitation)
a b Î Nvidia
a b C Monitor
August 16, 2010 5:23:45 PM

Lets not.
!