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Will Athon 2 X4 640 bottleneck GTX 580?

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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:02:40 AM

If so what are my options here i have a am3 socket board that supports up to 140 watt cpu
a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:25:17 AM

Im not willing to part with my current mobo just looking into cpus


1900x1080
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:29:16 AM

Looking at these 3 cpus atm want to make sure they work with my ram.i have 4 sticks 8gb can downclock to 1333 if needed

Ram-G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Cpu1-AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

cpu2-AMD Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

cpu3-AMD Phenom II X6 1055T Thuban 2.8GHz

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


I want to have no cpu bottleneck on this gtx 580 or system.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:55:31 AM

If you don't want a CPU bottleneck, then get the 965 or the 1090T. The Single thread performance of the 1055T is too slow. The 965 single threaded performance is also higher than the 1090T slightly. But the 965 and 1090T are both Black Editions and can be easily overclocked. If you have the budget, go with the 1090T, because you can give it a slight multiplier bump and have it running the same as the 965, and you also have 2 more cores which will benefit you to run more background processes while gaming.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:19:12 AM

at 4ghz im not a good overclocker
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:42:01 AM

I had a gtx 465 and it blew at 1900x1080p res at high settings same with a gts 450
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:43:56 AM

Well no crap that is the point of this thread.... I will ask again Amd 965970 or 1090t
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:50:51 AM

1 gtx 460 cannot run bc2 at max settings with aa on at 60 fps steady lol
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:56:31 AM

Ok id prefer to be ready for the next year so ill stick with the 580.... can we get back on topic here...
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:57:13 AM

Quote:
Are you talking about the stock Gtx 460? That's not a stock Gtx 460



This thread isn't about my getting a different card please get back on topic or dont post
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 5:02:27 AM

Ok s the 965 could handle it at 1920x1080?
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 5:07:36 AM

i cant even find a 2560 res monitor under like 600$ or am i looking in the wrong place.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 5:12:57 AM

I dont see how it is going to bottleneck this bad. 60hz monitor can only use 60fps so why does it matter. i guess
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 5:16:45 AM

Well even if it bottleneck to hell and back it will still give me better fps then any other card. so i guess i dont care.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 5:21:52 AM

dad bought it for me tonight lol, because in the graphics fourm in the past few days iv posted alot everyone there that knew my spec told me it wont bottle neck at 1920x1080 bad enough to harm fps
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 5:27:06 AM

this athlon held the gt 465 at 55 no dips my dads computer has a 9850 X4 and a 465 play fallout new vegas max at 54 fps no dips so i beg to differ
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 1:15:57 PM

Get the 965 C3 or the 1090T. If you are not going to overclock it at all, the 965 is already 4 cores at 3.4GHz. The 1090T is 3.2GHz, but it has 6 cores... which will benefit you more for multitasking. But like I said, the 965 and 1090T are black editions, so if you are curious about overclocking, all you need to do is go into your bios and raise the multiplier 1 or 2 steps, and put a aftermarket cooler on it if you want to go above 3.8GHz.

Seems this thread is not about CPUs anymore, it is about video cards now. If you really want to play all the latest games above 1080p with the highest settings and AA to max... you should be running the new 2600k overclocked to 4GHz, and run 2 video cards in SLI or crossfire. All current AMD systems and last generation Intel will bottleneck you if you want more than 60 FPS plus AA to max at resolutions higher than 1080p while playing a game that requires a lot of AI and taxing graphics. Other than changing everything, you will be perfectly happy with the 965 or 1090T. Just figure out which one you want to pay for. The 6 core will not help your FPS unless you are running a game optimized for 6 cores. Most games only benefit from 2-4 cores so far.
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a c 123 à CPUs
January 20, 2011 1:33:36 PM

Amidst this discussion of high-end, power hungry parts, I see no mention of the PSU. What PSU do you have? Brand and model please, not just wattage.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 1:39:08 PM

cia24 said:
This thread isn't about my getting a different card please get back on topic or dont post


Get the 965 C3 or the 1090T. If you are not going to overclock it at all, the 965 is already 4 cores at 3.4GHz. The 1090T is 3.2GHz, but it has 6 cores... which will benefit you more for multitasking. But like I said, the 965 and 1090T are black editions, so if you are curious about overclocking, all you need to do is go into your bios and raise the multiplier 1 or 2 steps, and put a aftermarket cooler on it if you want to go above 3.8GHz.

Seems this thread is not about CPUs anymore, it is about video cards now. If you really want to play all the latest games above 1080p with the highest settings and AA to max... you should be running the new 2600k overclocked to 4GHz, and run 2 video cards in SLI or crossfire. All current AMD systems and last generation Intel will bottleneck you if you want more than 60 FPS plus AA to max at resolutions higher than 1080p while playing a game that requires a lot of AI and taxing graphics. Other than changing everything, you will be perfectly happy with the 965 or 1090T. Just figure out which one you want to pay for. The 6 core will not help your FPS unless you are running a game optimized for 6 cores. Most games only benefit from 2-4 cores so far.


Seems most people are blind to what you are asking about. :pt1cable: 
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:00:30 PM



Let me just point out what he is asking about. What is the highest CPU you can get. He doesn't want to change his video card. He doesn't want to change his whole system over to Intel. Based on the setup he has and what he wants to do... he should go with the 965 or 1090T. What is not clear about that? Is there something better that I am missing? I am answering his question precisely to the point. OK, some games utilize 6 cores. I said MOST games are still in the 2-4 core arena. I don't care which video card he has in fact. All I can say is there is no AMD higher than the 970 or 1090T... so if the 1090T is still a bottleneck for his video card, he has no other AMD options. PERIOD. :na: 
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:01:59 PM

And I also believe he said somewhere up there to not answer the post if it is not about CPU's... perhaps I am imagining it.
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a c 123 à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:02:29 PM

Well, without overclocking, the 970 will give the best results. If you are willing to overclock, save money by getting a 965 or 955; don't forget another $30 for a Hyper 212+ HSF.
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a c 123 à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:03:47 PM

+many @1965ohio.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:04:03 PM

The 970 is the biggest waste of money. Only a 100MHz jump, that is why I said 965 or 1090T. If neither of those can do it, then he is just screwed and need to buy a whole new INTEL setup.
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a c 123 à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:06:00 PM

^Oh I agree. I'd never get a 970, but then I'm also willing to overclock at least a little.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:12:37 PM

I run a 965 @ 3.8GHz on the stock cooler and it is fine. Also run a GTX465... and I usually get flamed for it. But I got it new for $150... so I can't complain about how it is not worth the money.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:20:55 PM

So, cia24. All you need to consider at this point is budget. If you can afford the 1090T, then get it. If you want to save a little cash and get mostly the same experience, get the 965. If you want to overclock, then the 965 and 1090T are both unlocked and it is a breeze to bump them up to 3.8 on the stock cooler, and over 4 with a good aftermarket cooler. If you ever want to do video encoding, then definitely get the 1090T, because software like Handbrake will love you for your gracious investment. Ripping Blurays never seemed so fun. LOL :D 
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 2:31:25 PM

With the GTX 580 and the 1090T... Encoding should be a breeze. You can use NVidia software like Badaboom, which will use the CUDA cores in your GPU and available CPU cores. I have started using it over handbrake cause it saves me like 30% of the encoding time and looks better. And some games may do a little better on the extra 2 cores. And if you got BT running or other background apps, then the 1090T is the only answer for maximum gameplay and productivity at the same time. Even without overclocking anything.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:38:43 PM

What i7 wont bottleneck a gtx 580 please answer this quick.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 4:39:54 PM

If it is a waste of money to get a new amd cpu and bottleneck still i can afford to get a evga classified mobo and an i7
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 6:06:08 PM

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... Board $240

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... CPU $330

The 1090T AMD will not bottleneck you really. People are just trying to argue semantics with me about Intel VS AMD. Budget is the biggest concern, and Intel is like buying a new car. After you buy it, the value is nothing. The AMD doesn't cost as much and can still hang with the big boys. You already have a motherboard and the 1090T ain't gonna eat your budget all to hell. 1090T $230
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 6:09:07 PM

AMD boards have better chipsets at lower costs too. What we are talking about in i7-2600k versus the 1090T is that the Intel solution may or may not offer you 2-10FPS higher in games. Considering this, what is 2-10FPS when you are already getting more than 100FPS anyways? Unless you got a huge wallet, don't waste your money on changine everything. The 1090T will last you a few years, by that time these i7s will be half price because Intel will have another new socket and CPU for you to buy. Look, everyone was all the rave about Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads, and as soon as you bought one, people say it is $hit and you should get an i5 or i7... but that AMD board you have was still there and can still take a new CPU any time. And your GPU is taking most of the load... is 2-8 FPS a huge drop? Is it worth another $600?

Don't waste your money.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 7:22:22 PM

1965ohio said:
AMD boards have better chipsets at lower costs too. What we are talking about in i7-2600k versus the 1090T is that the Intel solution may or may not offer you 2-10FPS higher in games. Considering this, what is 2-10FPS when you are already getting more than 100FPS anyways? Unless you got a huge wallet, don't waste your money on changine everything. The 1090T will last you a few years, by that time these i7s will be half price because Intel will have another new socket and CPU for you to buy. Look, everyone was all the rave about Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads, and as soon as you bought one, people say it is $hit and you should get an i5 or i7... but that AMD board you have was still there and can still take a new CPU any time. And your GPU is taking most of the load... is 2-8 FPS a huge drop? Is it worth another $600?

Don't waste your money.



well isnt this the best amd cpu on the market atm or am i wrong

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 7:22:45 PM

Quote:
I beg to differ. Dual channel provides lower bandwidth across the board. they're current design they get 8x/8x theoretical bandwidth. No more


So, listen to him. Spend as much money as you can. Like an additional $100 per frame. Why don't you just buy another GTX580 too. Get the 2600k and the most expensive motherboard you can find. Run the 580's in SLI and don't forget to overclock the 2600 to 5GHz and get a water cooler. Maybe you will get another 30FPS above your single GTX580 and AMD 1090T.

Even better, why not look for a server board that can possibly have 2 SB chips on it and run 4 580's in SLI, then maybe you can get 40FPS higher in Crysis than your AMD build... but don't forget to pick up a 2000w PSU to power all that $hit!

Seems like this guy follows me around to piss me off. :fou: 
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 7:24:49 PM

Right, now you've gone up another 100MHz. You'll get 1 more FPS now. LOL :D 

The 1055 is locked. The 1090T is not. The 1090T can be 5GHz if you buy a good cooler. This is like the difference in the 955 vs the 965 or 970. Why spend so much more money for a 100MHz bump when the multiplier is already unlocked???
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 7:26:41 PM

1965ohio said:
Right, now you've gone up another 100MHz. You'll get 1 more FPS now. LOL :D 

The 1055 is locked. The 1090T is not. The 1090T can be 5GHz if you buy a good cooler. This is like the difference in the 955 vs the 965 or 970. Why spend so much more money for a 100MHz bump when the multiplier is already unlocked???



I have a good cooler but how do i overclock the 1090t stable --i see 205x20 1.475 volt 4.1 ghz stable for most
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 7:40:30 PM

Ok i am going to go with the 1090t has great reviews and out preforms alot of the i7s

Next question is what motherboard is the best for overclocking the bios on my msi nf750-g55 blows arse.

im looking at this board currently but its pricey or is it worth it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
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January 20, 2011 7:42:53 PM

1965ohio said:
So, listen to him. Spend as much money as you can. Like an additional $100 per frame. Why don't you just buy another GTX580 too. Get the 2600k and the most expensive motherboard you can find. Run the 580's in SLI and don't forget to overclock the 2600 to 5GHz and get a water cooler. Maybe you will get another 30FPS above your single GTX580 and AMD 1090T.

Even better, why not look for a server board that can possibly have 2 SB chips on it and run 4 580's in SLI, then maybe you can get 40FPS higher in Crysis than your AMD build... but don't forget to pick up a 2000w PSU to power all that $hit!

Seems like this guy follows me around to piss me off. :fou: 



while i agree that its not worththe money to get a higher bench marking score. its basically just people trying to boost thier e-peen. i wouldn't recommend the 1090t but im an idiot who bought a 970 the price difference between them here is tiny so i wasn't bothered and the 970 is meant to run cooler at 3.5ghz than the 965 would wether thats true i dont know. but if it is it means i can squeeze a little more ouf ot it when i get to oc'ing :p  i hav emy own little follower who follows me around the forum ever since i said hex cores are pointless in gaming my follower also claims he got an 8.1 on windows experience index score ;) 

ANNNYway i just can't recommend a hex core to anyone. unless there going to be encoding or decoding they are just not worth it. the 1100t is matched by the i5 2500k and is around the same price. and my bet is the i5 would oc higher.

a good high clocked quad will squeeze all that is needed out of that gpu espech at those resolutions. no games take advantage of 6 physical cores. bad company supports upto 8 threads on intel cpus's but not cores. and even when they do take advantage of it a good clocked quad will give you the same performance. its like badcompany they recommend a quad cpu but a high clocked duo will get you a more than playable frame rate with a good gpu.


to the OP
my recommendation would be the 965BE or the 970BE if your sticking with AMD. my 970 uses only 20% of each core while playing bad company 2 and the game runs fine even on my 9800gt which i plan on updating soon :p  crysis 2 is going to be a heavy hitter but i can't see them making a game only hex cores or more can run. while crytek do like to be the benchmark for graphics on systems they also need to make money to stay in business. also if you do OC ive done fairly little in the way of my oc experiments on this cpu so far but i hit 4ghz easy yet to try and go any higher.
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January 20, 2011 7:51:57 PM

cia24 said:
Ok i am going to go with the 1090t has great reviews and out preforms alot of the i7s

Next question is what motherboard is the best for overclocking the bios on my msi nf750-g55 blows arse.

im looking at this board currently but its pricey or is it worth it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


where you getting those reviews? the i7 blows the 1100t out of the water on most tests which is the next chip up from the 1090t

the 1090t is more comparable to the i5 sandy bridge

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/sandy-bridge-efficienct-3...

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/sandy-bridge-efficienct-3...

while i think amd's are great value for money i personally think there hex cores are a waste
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 7:57:12 PM

I don't know if i want to switch to intel or stay with amd now you have all confused the crap out of me. No matter if i switch to intel i want a 1366 socket so i can use my cooler i refuse to get rid of. And i also want it to work with my ram i refuse to get rid of.

Cooler-

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/ite...

ram- 8gb 4x2gb sticks

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


Also lol i need to know what to get by jan 25 have to order by then or i loose my option to.
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January 20, 2011 8:02:57 PM

cia24 said:
I don't know if i want to switch to intel or stay with amd now you have all confused the crap out of me. No matter if i switch to intel i want a 1366 socket so i can use my cooler i refuse to get rid of. And i also want it to work with my ram i refuse to get rid of.

Cooler-

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/ite...

ram- 8gb 4x2gb sticks

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


Also lol i need to know what to get by jan 25 have to order by then or i loose my option to.


im not saying switch to intel im jsut saying don't go with a hex core. if your gaming its not needed.

its a common misconception people seem to have that the more cores the better but it is far from the truth. there are few programs out there that can use a hex core and even when they can the differences are barely noticable. save yourself some money and get a quad or if you dont mind spending that much money add a little bit more and get the i5 2500k it will oc higher the 1090t and in almost every case beat it in tests.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 8:11:08 PM

Did I say something wrong? Dude, looks like you should get rid of your GTX580. You can never buy a system to keep up with it if you listen to all these guys!

I am just pointing out to you that if you don't want to change boards, the 1090T is as high as you should go. Even if games don't take advantage of 6 cores now, they will in the future. And 6 cores can multitask better than 4 in your daily life. Am I full of $hit when I say that, they add 2 cores for $hits and giggles or what? Are you all saying 6 core is a lower class of CPU? WTF is wrong with you people??? :pt1cable: 

You are all trying to confuse this poor guy for no foreseeable reason. He will be plenty happy with a 965 or a 1090T. No need to keep filling his head up with Intel fanboy crap. Like my Intel is so great it even can blow me while I am playing Crysis. You are all full of crap. The only bottleneck here is a lot of people standing in the way of this guy from maxing out his AMD system with Intel fanboy talk.

cia24... if you have an AMD board, and you want more performance, just choose the 965 or the 1090T. Choose the 965 if you only want to play games and never do anything else. Choose the 1090T if you want to play games and do other things in the background like your virus scanner and BT without screwing with your game. There is no need for you to lay down a whole bunch of cash because Intel will increase your bandwidth or FPS slightly. Gaming is 75% GPU, not CPU.

If you listen to all the Intel opinions much longer, you will just get a headache like I have after trying to tell you the same thing over and over. Screw 5% better CPU scaling and screw 5% more frames because you will be rebuilding everything and wasting a $1000 for nothing!!!
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January 20, 2011 8:14:49 PM

Quote:
what higher benchmarking score? Its not a higher benchmarking score.

1. he plays at a resolution where the cpu still plays a role.

2. Its a Gtx 580. Its all and well to say don't worry OC IT to 4ghz. Well no one just oc a cpu to 4ghz unless he really knows what he's doing. Have you look around at the posts in the forum and notice the posts of the 6 core running hot? Ill advise you to go to hwbot.org and check the voltage scaling with the core. They get excited over there coz they smack it with LN2 which says a lot the chip run hot.

its easy to get the 965/970 to run at 4ghz. im not recommending the hex core which you seem to keep suggesting i am. i think they are pointless the only hex core i would even think about getting is the sandy bridge one they are apperently making.

3. Its gaming 6 cores WTF?

WTF i don't know what your on about there. I'm not recommending a hex core system. i know no games take advantage of them.

4. Pci-e controller on the board. More cpu overhead. Its got to check the caches

dunno what thats a reference to

5. 2500k got turbo. It oc itself to 3.8 without lifting a finger. Two cores getting boosted a huge plus for gaming.

yeh and im guessing its like the amd solution where two cores get dropped to 800mhz which when your playing a game with quad core support is pointless.

6. He's never going to see that value of that 580 or the 6 core machine.


i agree but he already has the card and i dont recommend amd hex cores because intels quads out perform them and the 965 and 970 perform fairly similar to the 1100t anda re cheaper. if i could afford an i7 2600k i would damn well have one :p 
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 8:16:22 PM

Best answer selected by cia24.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 8:16:30 PM

Oh, and if you ever do want to rip movies, might as well get the 6 core. It will beat the 4 core hands down no matter what the Intel camp says. If you don't believe me and have a lot of money to waste... Build both systems, then sell the one you think is slower. You'd still wanna sell the Intel system cause you will not notice a huge difference other than all the money you wasted. That is why you would sell the Intel one... money talks and bull$hit walks. You can't eat a computer. Cash can pay the bills.
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 8:19:22 PM

This thread didn't help me much except for 1965ohio.
others trying to brand wash me with intel crap
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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2011 8:21:43 PM

Good choice cia24. If you do decide 6 cores... get a copy of Badaboom if you ever want to encode or rip movies. It's not free like handbrake, but you can use the CPU cores and the GPU CUDA cores to encode your movies in no time. Let's see the Intel guys beat me at 1080p Bluray rips... maybe when their Sandybridge gets to 6 cores someday. :p  LOL
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January 20, 2011 8:23:02 PM

1965ohio said:
Did I say something wrong? Dude, looks like you should get rid of your GTX580. You can never buy a system to keep up with it if you listen to all these guys!

I am just pointing out to you that if you don't want to change boards, the 1090T is as high as you should go. Even if games don't take advantage of 6 cores now, they will in the future. And 6 cores can multitask better than 4 in your daily life. Am I full of $hit when I say that, they add 2 cores for $hits and giggles or what? Are you all saying 6 core is a lower class of CPU? WTF is wrong with you people??? :pt1cable: 

You are all trying to confuse this poor guy for no foreseeable reason. He will be plenty happy with a 965 or a 1090T. No need to keep filling his head up with Intel fanboy crap. Like my Intel is so great it even can blow me while I am playing Crysis. You are all full of crap. The only bottleneck here is a lot of people standing in the way of this guy from maxing out his AMD system with Intel fanboy talk.

cia24... if you have an AMD board, and you want more performance, just choose the 965 or the 1090T. Choose the 965 if you only want to play games and never do anything else. Choose the 1090T if you want to play games and do other things in the background like your virus scanner and BT without screwing with your game. There is no need for you to lay down a whole bunch of cash because Intel will increase your bandwidth or FPS slightly. Gaming is 75% GPU, not CPU.

If you listen to all the Intel opinions much longer, you will just get a headache like I have after trying to tell you the same thing over and over. Screw 5% better CPU scaling and screw 5% more frames because you will be rebuilding everything and wasting a $1000 for nothing!!!


not said anything wrong but the 1090t is shite its not future proof either because even on apps that do take advantage of the hex it barely out performs the 965BE its a waste of money.

they dont add more cores for shits and giggles they add more cores because they know the majority of people look at them and go "oooo more cores it must be better!"

im not an intel fanboy , i use an amd :p and think they are great but there hex cores are garbage. im just pointing out that the 1090t does not outperform the i7

its going to be years before we see proper hex core support in games.
dual cores have been out years and we are only just seeing them being used in the mainstream. the odd enthusiast game will come out like crysis 2 or bad company and probably battlefield 3 that will take advantage of these hex core cpu's but you will get more than enough performance out of a quad for them.
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January 20, 2011 8:27:42 PM

cia24 said:
This thread didn't help me much except for 1965ohio.
others trying to brand wash me with intel crap


brand wash you?
check proper benchmarks the i7 kicks the crap out of the 1100t which is a better chip than the 1090t and the i7 is only a quad.

i love amd chips ive always used them but i know their hex cores are garbage the entire time ive recommended the amd quads to you. good luck wasting money on your hex core :)  because if all your doing is gaming your just wasting money.

you come here asking for an opinion and you got peoples opinions. if you dont like there answers don't claim they are trying to brand wash you or force you to get different chips they recommend what they think is best for you. they spend thier time trying to get you the best value for your money and you act like an asshole when they use thier spare time to help you. i will agree that the convo about ght 580 was off track but the rest of it was people trying to recommend you a product based on thier knowledge. were not salesmen we don't get a commision we don't get anything from telling you to switch. we make nothing from helping you find whats best for your money.

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