F@h

[awesome996]

hi i want to do this because everbody is but what is it exactly? do i need a really badass computer for it not to crash or overheat thats what i herd thanks

 

[minitron815]

It's a pet project that basically uses other people's computers to calculate protein folding.

More wasted resources that won't ever contribute to a major drug discovery.

 

[cjl]

You don't need an awesome computer to do it. You just need to make sure that your computer can handle use at heavy load for long periods of time. The main thing is to make sure that it isn't full of dust, and that it has decent cooling and power. If it has that, you should be OK. What kind of system were you thinking of running it on?

minitron: Many interesting (and useful) discoveries have come out of Folding@home. What do you have against it? It allows researchers to use an immense amount of computing power to better understand some diseases, which could indeed help with the discovery of new treatment methods someday.

 

[minitron815]

Just because we better understand diseases doesn't mean we do anything about them. We know the cause of cystic fibrosis but there is no cure and no future cure; genetic diseases such as misfolded proteins can never be cured. You can't get the right gene into every cell of that person's body/organ. The only way to deal with them besides alleviating symptoms is genetic screening of the blastocyst (8 cell ball stage of the embryo).

Billions of dollars are spent on research, mostly in academia such as the F@H project (Stanford I think), that lead to knowledge you can't really use. For example, hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on cancer prevention when its common sense: diet, exercise, stay out of the sun and don't smoke. These funds could be directed to better uses in society such as early child education and preschool for the underprivileged.

It's like NASA, legalized theft of your tax dollars.

"But but but the microwave." For the trillions of today's dollars that's been dumped into NASA we could have gotten much more than a microwave, etc. Same could be said for just about anything we get out of funding the study of protein folding. We don't need to know how the protein folds to know the nondiseased alleles of the genes. I work in this field so I'll take your money but don't think you're doing any good for anyone.

 

[cjl]

Just because we better understand diseases doesn't mean we do anything about them. We know the cause of cystic fibrosis but there is no cure and no future cure; genetic diseases such as misfolded proteins can never be cured. You can't get the right gene into every cell of that person's body/organ. The only way to deal with them besides alleviating symptoms is genetic screening of the blastocyst (8 cell ball stage of the embryo).

Billions of dollars are spent on research, mostly in academia such as the F@H project (Stanford I think), that lead to knowledge you can't really use. For example, hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on cancer prevention when its common sense: diet, exercise, stay out of the sun and don't smoke. These funds could be directed to better uses in society such as early child education and preschool for the underprivileged.

It's like NASA, legalized theft of your tax dollars.

"But but but the microwave." For the trillions of today's dollars that's been dumped into NASA we could have gotten much more than a microwave, etc. Same could be said for just about anything we get out of funding the study of protein folding. We don't need to know how the protein folds to know the nondiseased alleles of the genes. I work in this field so I'll take your money but don't think you're doing any good for anyone.

1) Folding at home isn't spending billions. Hell, I doubt it's spending millions. That's kind of the point of distributed computing

2) Pure research can often lead to surprising things, and you can't always predict whether something will be useful or not

3) Yes, doing what you said can help prevent cancer. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't research ways to reduce the cases of cancer even farther. Not all cancer is caused by smoking or sunburn (and very little of it is caused by obesity).

4) NASA is funded at a level around $20 billion per year (<1% of the US budget). Over their entire lifetime, their cumulative budget is <1 trillion (in current dollars). A lot of people vastly overestimate how much funding they've received

5) You joke about microwaves, but I don't think you realize just how much useful tech has come from NASA, either directly or indirectly. NASA technology has contributed to everything from GPS to artificial limbs. They've had research that improves tire traction in wet conditions, as well as tire lifetimes. NASA projects help us understand the earth's atmosphere and how we're affecting it. They've developed water purification technologies. More efficient solar cells. High performance lubricants. Structural analysis software. Aircraft anti-icing. Even firefighting equipment (and this is hardly a comprehensive list). NASA has done more than most people realize, and they've done it with less money (most people vastly, vastly overestimate NASA's budget, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of the total federal budget).

6) You say "I'll take your money, but don't think you're doing any good for anyone". As I said above, you can't really predict when a particular direction of research will lead to useful results, and also, I don't see how you are in any way taking my money. I would own this computer whether I was folding with it or not, and it's only using up spare CPU and GPU cycles that I wouldn't have used anyways. Even the electricity is negligible, since at my current place, electricity is included with the rent (flat rate). So, I'm spending exactly no money to fold, and useful and interesting scientific results could come out of it. As I see it, there really isn't a downside.

 

[minitron815]

You're obviously not in biochemistry, chemistry or any biological field so you obviously don't understand the futility of studying protein folding which can only be fixed through genetic screening. The F@H project itself is costing millions a year.

For the most part, cancer research is also a waste of money; the job of cancer oncologists is to tell people they die. At best they spend a large proportion of your tax dollars to extend their life a few months. That's not even getting into quality of life. Every cancer drug in use today has come from industry; no cancer drugs have come from academia.

Half of all healthcare costs are spent in the last 6 months of life. That's 3% of the economy.

GPS was not an invention of NASA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

NASA used to cost 4% of the budget in the 60s, the accumulated cost has been trillions in today's dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget

Even if it's less than 0.5% of the budget that's billions of dollars wasted.

The final cost of the first Apollo project is over $100 million in today's dollars. That's not nearly the most expensive Apollo project either...

Every year NASA overruns it's budget by %200-300n

Like I said for the trillions of dollars put into NASA we could have gotten much more than the microwave and some tire treads. Now they are studying Mars. It will never be feasible to colonize Mars or any other planet. Yet none of these dollars we shovel them is pushed towards asteroids prevention.

It may not cost you anything directly but just supporting them means they will continue to get funding from the government.

"Most notably, a large bulk of our funding comes from the United States' National Institutes of Health (NIH) and National Science Foundation (NSF). We also thank (in alphabetical order) Apple, ATI, Dell, Google, Intel, and Sony for their support over the years. Finally, we have been supported by NIH Roadmap centers Simbios and the Protein Folding Nanomedicine Center. " From their website. The NIH and NSF dollars are from your pockets.

 

[warmon6]

hi i want to do this because everbody is but what is it exactly? do i need a really badass computer for it not to crash or overheat thats what i herd thanks

Well F@H is a protien folding simulation program that is made by Stanford Uni. that tries too help us understand why protiens fold the way they do and how they create disease the way they do.

As for a badass computer, whats your definition by it? Can you have one? yes. Do you need one? No.

I run the SMP2 client on a pentium dual core t2390 (laptop cpu @ 1.86 Ghz) so i think this already shows you dont need a powerful computer to fold. (and there even old Pentium 3's still folding with us today. although not on this team.)

Although just ignore minitron815. If he doesn't want to spend time on a project, then he shouldn't be commenting in the first place.


As for you minitron815....

You're obviously not in biochemistry, chemistry or any biological field so you obviously don't understand the futility of studying protein folding which can only be fixed through genetic screening. The F@H project itself is costing millions a year.

For the most part, cancer research is also a waste of money; the job of cancer oncologists is to tell people they die. At best they spend a large proportion of your tax dollars to extend their life a few months. That's not even getting into quality of life. Every cancer drug in use today has come from industry; no cancer drugs have come from academia.

Half of all healthcare costs are spent in the last 6 months of life. That's 3% of the economy.

GPS was not an invention of NASA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

NASA used to cost 4% of the budget in the 60s, the accumulated cost has been trillions in today's dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget

Even if it's less than 0.5% of the budget that's billions of dollars wasted.

The final cost of the first Apollo project is over $100 million in today's dollars. That's not nearly the most expensive Apollo project either...

Every year NASA overruns it's budget by %200-300n

Like I said for the trillions of dollars put into NASA we could have gotten much more than the microwave and some tire treads. Now they are studying Mars. It will never be feasible to colonize Mars or any other planet. Yet none of these dollars we shovel them is pushed towards asteroids prevention.

It may not cost you anything directly but just supporting them means they will continue to get funding from the government.

"Most notably, a large bulk of our funding comes from the United States' National Institutes of Health (NIH) and National Science Foundation (NSF). We also thank (in alphabetical order) Apple, ATI, Dell, Google, Intel, and Sony for their support over the years. Finally, we have been supported by NIH Roadmap centers Simbios and the Protein Folding Nanomedicine Center. " From their website. The NIH and NSF dollars are from your pockets.

All i read from this is that you also dont understand F@H either. [:badge:3]

You've only read some stuff about it but you haven't read it all.


Like said, if you dont support it. then just don't mention anything on thread about it and move along. It's more efficient to put your energy to the stuff thats more useful, say, helping people with there computer issues than to rant or say negitive stuff you dont understand yourself.

 

[warmon6]

Folding@home is the most powerful distributed computing cluster in the world, according to Guinness,[2] and one of the world's largest distributed computing projects.[3] The goal of the project is "to understand protein folding, misfolding, and related diseases."[4]

Accurate simulations of protein folding and misfolding enable the scientific community to better understand the development of many diseases, including sickle-cell disease (drepanocytosis), Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, Bovine spongiform encephalopathy, cancer, Huntington's disease, cystic fibrosis, osteogenesis imperfecta, alpha 1-antitrypsin deficiency, and other aggregation-related diseases.[5] More fundamentally, understanding the process of protein folding — how biological molecules assemble themselves into a functional state — is one of the outstanding problems of molecular biology. So far, the Folding@home project has successfully simulated folding in the 1.5 millisecond range[6] — which is a simulation thousands of times longer than it was previously thought possible to model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding@Home

Looks like someone reading up on it.

 

[cjl]

You're obviously not in biochemistry, chemistry or any biological field so you obviously don't understand the futility of studying protein folding which can only be fixed through genetic screening. The F@H project itself is costing millions a year.

You're correct about my field. I'm in aerospace, which means I know how ignorant you are of NASA (and trust me, it's pretty impressive how ignorant of NASA you are).

As for folding? I already told you. It costs me nothing and I think it's an interesting project. I also know how many scientific discoveries come from basic research, something you apparently don't know.

For the most part, cancer research is also a waste of money; the job of cancer oncologists is to tell people they die. At best they spend a large proportion of your tax dollars to extend their life a few months. That's not even getting into quality of life. Every cancer drug in use today has come from industry; no cancer drugs have come from academia.

Tax dollars? I guess you've never heard of insurance then...

Half of all healthcare costs are spent in the last 6 months of life. That's 3% of the economy.

And?

GPS was not an invention of NASA

No, but in its development and implementation it used technologies which were either developed by or significantly advanced by NASA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

Oooh, wikipedia. Now I'm impressed...

NASA used to cost 4% of the budget in the 60s, the accumulated cost has been trillions in today's dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget

NASA did cost 4% of the budget in the 60s. Now it costs less. Also, if you'd bothered to read the article you just linked to, you'd notice that it actually totals the costs over the years. The total? 790 billion in 2007 dollars. That's definitely not trillions.

Even if it's less than 0.5% of the budget that's billions of dollars wasted.

You have a very different definition of "wasted" than any sane person

The final cost of the first Apollo project is over $100 million in today's dollars. That's not nearly the most expensive Apollo project either...

Oh, it's a hell of a lot more than that. The apollo program was closer to a hundred billion, and it was basically the most expensive program in NASA's history. You could make a case that the shuttle has cost more, but it's been spread out over several decades, unlike Apollo which was over a period of around 1 decade.

Every year NASA overruns it's budget by %200-300n

Wrong.

Like I said for the trillions of dollars put into NASA we could have gotten much more than the microwave and some tire treads. Now they are studying Mars. It will never be feasible to colonize Mars or any other planet. Yet none of these dollars we shovel them is pushed towards asteroids prevention.

Let's try this again. $790 billion is not equal to trillions. Is that clear yet, or do I need to draw you a diagram?

As for studying mars? That's actually pretty darn cheap, as things go. The majority of the money that NASA gets goes into manned spaceflight. The unmanned stuff (such as the mars missions) is certainly not worth worrying about by comparison.

It may not cost you anything directly but just supporting them means they will continue to get funding from the government.

"Most notably, a large bulk of our funding comes from the United States' National Institutes of Health (NIH) and National Science Foundation (NSF). We also thank (in alphabetical order) Apple, ATI, Dell, Google, Intel, and Sony for their support over the years. Finally, we have been supported by NIH Roadmap centers Simbios and the Protein Folding Nanomedicine Center. " From their website. The NIH and NSF dollars are from your pockets.

Yes? I really don't see a problem with the national institutes of health and the national science foundation funding a health science related project. It actually sounds like exactly what they're supposed to do...

 

[cjl]

Again, better understanding doesn't mean better treatment or cure; I said this in the previous post. In fact none of those diseases have any form of care and nothing on the horizon.

We have a molecular modeling computer that sits next me in the computer lab; I know how protein modeling works, apparently you guys don't.

Yes, because the modeling you can do on a single computer in your computer lab is comparable in usefulness (or anything else, really) to the modeling that can be done with a 10 petaflop array.

(Give me a minute, I have to stop laughing here)

Actually, no, you don't learn this in freshman chem. Perhaps freshman bio, depending on the program, but realistically, it would be at a higher level than that. How do I know this? Because I've taken (and quite successfully passed) freshman chem (2 semesters), and this certainly wasn't covered, and neither was anything remotely related.

 

[minitron815]

So molecular modeling isn't your field; maybe you should butt out of the conversation about F@H.

Cancer research tax dollars and medicare which many cancer patients have for obvious reasons.

So I guess healthcare spending and the deficit don't have anything to do with each other...

Find me some more reliable sources than the ones here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#References

Okay I was wrong, only 790 billion dollars have been mostly wasted. NASA sends people into space and looks at rocks on a planet.

Cost overruns? Yes please!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20022475-501465.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,513575,00.html

You sure about the cost of exploring Mars? That's not even mentioning the wasted investment.

The NIH has limited resources to fund many great projects that do not get looked at for various reasons; one of them is this insistence on finding knowledge for the sake of knowledge. There are certainly more worthy projects and scientists to fund than F@H. This is even more true since the budget seemingly shrinks every year.

Protein folding functions on the same principles in both F@H and the computer in the lab. You're not going to correctly unfold them in anyone so they're stuck with the disease; prevention is the only way to stop these diseases and genetics is the most cost effective way.

The question was meant to point out that you lack some background information on molecular biology and protein folding diseases. You didn't learn about hydrophobic forces in freshman chem? (Sarcasm)

Anyways you can keep shilling for NASA but stop pretending you know that the millions of dollars spent on F@H can potentially benefit anyone.

 

[cjl]

I have to say, I'm kind of amused that you can be hypocritical enough to complain about the fact that NIH and NSF's budgets are shrinking, and then immediately turn around and blast NASA's budget.

Oh, and I have never said that I know for sure that F@H can help anyone. I said it was interesting research, and that you cannot possibly know that it's useless. A lot of discoveries come from seemingly useless research, and the amount of money spent on folding@home is honestly pretty minimal for the amount of scientific knowledge gained.

 

[endyen]

So molecular modeling isn't your field; maybe you should butt out of the conversation about F@H.

Cancer research tax dollars and medicare which many cancer patients have for obvious reasons.

So I guess healthcare spending and the deficit don't have anything to do with each other...

Find me some more reliable sources than the ones here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#References

Okay I was wrong, only 790 billion dollars have been mostly wasted. NASA sends people into space and looks at rocks on a planet.

Cost overruns? Yes please!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20022475-501465.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,513575,00.html

You sure about the cost of exploring Mars? That's not even mentioning the wasted investment.

The NIH has limited resources to fund many great projects that do not get looked at for various reasons; one of them is this insistence on finding knowledge for the sake of knowledge. There are certainly more worthy projects and scientists to fund than F@H. This is even more true since the budget seemingly shrinks every year.

Protein folding functions on the same principles in both F@H and the computer in the lab. You're not going to correctly unfold them in anyone so they're stuck with the disease; prevention is the only way to stop these diseases and genetics is the most cost effective way.

The question was meant to point out that you lack some background information on molecular biology and protein folding diseases. You didn't learn about hydrophobic forces in freshman chem? (Sarcasm)

Anyways you can keep shilling for NASA but stop pretending you know that the millions of dollars spent on F@H can potentially benefit anyone.

Electrical not chemical, so no right to coment on the curative useage of F@H, admitted.
However, I find your glaring hatred for academia, and in deed the search for knowledge in general, rather disturbing.
To imply that cancer and other folding related diseases cannot be beaten is an obvious lie. To say that information garnered from F@H will not be usefull, takes a much better crystal ball than you have.
The reality is that cures will be found, and even if the only connection is that the people who make the discoveries, learned how to analize,recognize or formulate, through experience with folding datum, that will be important enough.

 

[Motopsychojdn]

Quote Op
**hi i want to do this because everbody is but what is it exactly? do i need a really badass computer for it not to crash or overheat thats what i herd thanks**

Op wants to contribute to society instead of just being in it,
When he pays tax dollars he will be contributing to N.A.S.A.'s budget whether he wants to or not, but that isn't the point here thats a misdirection by you which I'll ignore.
This is a conscious decision borne of a desire to help his fellow human beings, I'm assuming a youngish age for Op and by the argument construction and delivery of Minitron I assume you're an adult,
Way to encourage the youth of today.....
Of course, if you know of a more suitable device for Op and others to spend their time on, share that with the community please, instead of just poo-poohing something that people believe can help others.
Moto

 

[amnotanoobie]

Like I said for the trillions of dollars put into NASA we could have gotten much more than the microwave and some tire treads. Now they are studying Mars. It will never be feasible to colonize Mars or any other planet. Yet none of these dollars we shovel them is pushed towards asteroids prevention.

For the trillions of dollars spent you got these:
* CAT scans
* MRIs
* Kidney dialysis machines
* Heart defibrillator technology
* Remote robotic surgery
* Artificial heart pump technology
* Physical therapy machines
* Positron emission tomography
* Microwave receivers used in scans for breast cancer
* Cardiac angiography
* Monitoring neutron activity in the brain
* Cleaning techniques for hospital operating rooms
* Portable x-ray technology for neonatal offices and 3rd world countries
* Freeze-dried food
* Water purification filters
* ATM technology
* Pay at the Pump satellite technology
* Athletic shoe manufacturing technique
* Insulation barriers for autos
* Image-processing software for crash-testing automobiles
* Holographic testing of communications antennas
* Low-noise receivers
* Cordless tools
* A computer language used by businesses such as car repair shops, Kodak, hand-held computers, express mail
* Aerial reconnaissance and Earth resources mapping
* Airport baggage scanners
* Distinction between natural space objects and satellites/warheads/rockets for defense
* Satellite monitors for nuclear detonations
* Hazardous gas sensors
* Precision navigation
* Clock synchronization
* Ballistic missile guidance
* Secure communications
* Study of ozone depletion
* Climate change studies
* Monitoring of Earth-based storms such as hurricanes
* Solar collectors
* Fusion reactors
* Space-age fabrics for divers, swimmers, hazardous material workers, and others
* Teflon-coated fiberglass for roofing material
* Lightweight breathing system used by firefighters
* Atomic oxygen facility for removing unwanted material from 19th century paintings
* FDA-adopted food safety program that has reduced salmonella cases by a factor of 2
* Multispectral imaging methods used to read ancient Roman manuscripts buried by Mt. Vesuvius


Read more at Suite101: Practical Applications of Space Technology: Discoveries and Developments by NASA and Their Benefit to Society http://www.suite101.com/content/practical-applications-of-space-technology-a98927#ixzz1Cyo6xMww


Thanks for being such a tard!

 

[amnotanoobie]

So you're suggesting that we should just stop trying to treat diseases such as AIDS and cancer. When the mortality rate for Cancer before was 100% and now there are people that could still live with their families. And now there is a promising cure for a specific strain of AIDS.

Also some of the results for F@H: http://folding.stanford.edu/English/Papers

 

[amnotanoobie]

hi i want to do this because everbody is but what is it exactly? do i need a really badass computer for it not to crash or overheat thats what i herd thanks

Just make sure that your computer could run for extended periods of time, and that it has enough speed to complete the Work Units before the deadline. An old Pentium 2 might not be able to make the deadlines, but a Pentium 3 does manage though it'd need to be on 24/7 to probably make it. With a Pentium 4 or so, you'd probably still make the deadlines even if you just turn on the computer fro 8~10 hours a day.

 

[warmon6]

So you're suggesting that we should just stop trying to treat diseases such as AIDS and cancer. When the mortality rate for Cancer before was 100% and now there are people that could still live with their families. And now there is a promising cure for a specific strain of AIDS.

Also some of the results for F@H: http://folding.stanford.edu/English/Papers

Although he'll never read there papers as there a "useless and costly project" after all.



Although everyone lets just ignore poor little minitron as he may understand protein folding but he doesn't understand F@H or apparently Nasa.

 

[amnotanoobie]

almost like torrents.. when your done downloading a person normally leaves it connected where you are part of the file sharing network

Ideally it should just run in the background whenever you're using your computer. You could let your computer run F@H all night long, but environmentalists and your electric bill might say otherwise.

 

[cjl]

For the trillions of dollars spent you got these:

Correction:

For the less than a trillion dollars spent, you get those.

(It's even better than you made it look )

 

[minitron815]

So without NASA we wouldn't have cordless tools and wouldn't be able to synchronize clocks? Stop being naive. Anything useful NASA does that will actually benefit people (unlike exploring Mars) can be taken over by the airforce.

I don't hate academia; it's area I work in. There are just much better projects to research besides protein folding. This is coming from someone actually in molecular biology and biochemistry.

Just because you publish a paper doesn't mean it's important or useful. It's just the way academic research works: publish papers to keep your name revelant so you can get more NIH grants. We are publishing a paper on the drosophila protein which controls mitochondria transport in motorneurons and there are a lot of diseases associated with them. None of what we have published will ever contribute to curing these diseases but we say they will in our papers so we get the grant form the NIH and pay our salaries.

But obviously people not involved in academic research would have a better understanding than me...

Anyone who thinks there is a "cure" for cancer is retarded: if you don't die of anything else you will get cancer, it's an inevitability.

 

[amnotanoobie]

So without NASA we wouldn't have cordless tools and wouldn't be able to synchronize clocks? Stop being naive. Anything useful NASA does that will actually benefit people (unlike exploring Mars) can be taken over by the airforce.

I don't hate academia; it's area I work in. There are just much better projects to research besides protein folding. This is coming from someone actually in molecular biology and biochemistry.

Just because you publish a paper doesn't mean it's important or useful. It's just the way academic research works: publish papers to keep your name revelant so you can get more NIH grants. We are publishing a paper on the drosophila protein which controls mitochondria transport in motorneurons and there are a lot of diseases associated with them. None of what we have published will ever contribute to curing these diseases but we say they will in our papers so we get the grant form the NIH and pay our salaries.

But obviously people not involved in academic research would have a better understanding than me...

Anyone who thinks there is a "cure" for cancer is retarded: if you don't die of anything else you will get cancer, it's an inevitability.

From my POV, I'd take F@H any day than Prime95 or SETI@home. (There's nothing wrong with the other projects, this is just based on my perspective on what could be more important)

I'm not sure why you like the defeatist point of view, wherein we shouldn't even try. I'm glad you're not the guy running things, and I'm glad that these kind of people do their work and succeed instead:

..."I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will work."
- Thomas Edison http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/bios/b4edisont.htm