HTPC Build Help

[rednekcowboy]

Hi all,

I read the forums on here all the time, but this is my first time posting, so please, be gentle!! I'm building a HTPC and thought I'd pick your collective brains. I"ve already got the case and power supply. Here they are:

Case: http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=41910&vpn=HTPC-8000&manufacture=NMedia%20System
PSU: http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=21597&vpn=OCZ850GXSSLI&manufacture=OCZ%20Technology&promoid=1259

The case fits a full size motherboard so I have a couple of options and this is where I'd like your input. I can go with a cheap motherboard and cpu and then get a decent graphics card or I could go a little overkill and get a decent motherboard and cpu and use the onboard video. For the cheap motherboard, I was thinking of going with something that can use the AMD 955 dual core and unlock the 2 "hidden cores" and make it a quad-core, which would be more than enough for what I need this system for, however I also wanted something that would be somewhat "futureproof" if there is such a thing anymore. This is what I was thinking for the more expensive mobo/cpu combo:

GIGABYTE GA-890GPA-UD3H AM3 or ASUS M4A89GTD PRO/USB3 or ASRock 890GX EXTREME4 AM3 AMD 890GX
CPU: AMD Phenom II X6 1055T Thuban 6 Core Processor

Ram: Patriot G Series ‘Sector 5’ Edition 8GB

Bluray Reader/DVD writer combo drive (don't plan on burning blurays at this point)

2 * 2tb drives

I know this is overkill, but the mobo's have an onboard ATI 4290 which I hope would play my movies, though I'm not sure as I have some .mkv files that are over 10 GB each and have DTS encoded sound. If the onboard 4290 is enough then I wouldn't have to buy a gpu for the above, thus keeping the heat down inside the case and improving airflow. This will be outputting over hdmi to my 47" TV through my av receiver. I should also mention that I will have 4 hard drives to put in this so I need a board that has at least 5 sata ports. The nice thing with the above boards is that they have the new sata 6gb/s and USB 3.0. I don't plan on doing any gaming with this, but you never know what I may want to do in the future.

Basically it comes down to skimping on the mobo and cpu and spending money on the gpu or spending the money on a good mobo and cpu and hope and pray that the onboard gpu is good enough for hd playback of large files. I can always add a gpu later I suppose if need be, but I'm already going to be over-budget on this.

Anyhow, I'd just thought I'd pick your brain to see what you think. I should also mention that I won't be buying this all at once, but a piece or two at a time when I can (or when the wife lets go of the purse strings, LOL).

Thanks,
Bill

 

[MadAdmiral]

You really do need help. If all your doing is building a media storage and playing machine (no encoding or rendering), you don't need an X6 or 8 GB of RAM. Also, overclocking and unlocking would be a bad idea for an HTPC because it adds heat, and thus noise, and the extra power isn't needed.

Here's what I'd look at for an HTPC (I'm using US links, but I'm sure you can find the parts wherever):

CPU: X3 445. The cheapest I'd go. Really, the only other option for a CPU is the X4 955. Everything else in between these should be ignored, as should anything that's more expensive.

Mobo: I'd personally go with something a touch cheaper. Here's a good one: ASUS M4A87TD/USB3. This board only has one PCIe 2.0 slot, but since you're not going to be doing a lot of gaming, you won't need to Crossfire any way. If you wanted to game, you'd be getting a single larger card later. Once that became too weak to game, you'd be looking at another build any way. Another option is the ASRock 870 Extreme3 if you want to Crossfire if you were going to get into gaming soon.

RAM: G.Skill Eco 2x2 GB 1600 mhz CAS Latency 7. Uses less power, which means less heat.

HDD: Samsung Spinpoint F4 2 TB. The best option for a large storage drive.

GPU: HD 5450. The lower end 5xxx series card (basically anything under the 5850) are amazing HTPC cards. They run cool and quiet, and are basically tweaked to be perfect for playing media. This would not be able to play anything over the most simple games, so you might want to consider stepping up to at least the HD 5770 for the option to game. You could also leave it out, as the onboard graphics are perfectly capable of playing HD movies by itself.

PSU: You have one, but it's not a good one. OCZ's units aren't great quality, and for an HTPC you really want something that's extremely quiet. Here's a couple of my favorites, but they aren't cheap.

SeaSonic 460W Fanless 80+ Gold Certified. Perfect for an HTPC. It doesn't have a fan, so it's silent. It's also highly efficient, so it doesn't introduce much heat to the system, making all the other parts quieter as well. It's got a decent amount of power, so it will be able to handle some larger GPUs (like anything under the HD 5870) if you decide to start gaming.

SeaSonic 650W 80+ Gold Certified. More power, but also has more noise. This PSU will easily handle any larger GPU you'd want to throw in the build, making it better for expansion.

 

[coldsleep]

All good suggestions from MadAdmiral. An X6 and 8 GB is complete overkill for an HTPC, and overclocking is unnecessary and probably unwanted.

You might also consider an Intel i3 + H55 motherboard, removing the need for a discrete graphics card. Unfortunately, due to the higher price of i3 + H55, it doesn't really reduce the price much.

If you're just tossing money around, you might also consider a 60 GB SSD, like the Corsair Force, G.Skill Phoenix, OCZ Agility2/Vertex2.

 

[rednekcowboy]

MadAdmiral and coldsleep are both 100% correct in that what I'm suggesting is overkill. However the total for MadAdmiral's setup is $563 on the canadian site that is a sister site to the one he provided links for. I can do the 6 core setup with this bundle for $463:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.548075

I would still have to add another $110 for another hdd and that would bring the total to $573. The only differences being I have one 1tb and one 2tb drive and am using a mobo with an onboard GPU. So if I had to get the 5450 he pointed out it would be another $67.

The case I'm using is wood, so I'm not worried about the noise. I guess I was more wondering about cheaping out on the processor and am worried that the onboard gpu would not be enough to handle the large HD files that I have. As far as the PSU goes, I know it's not ideal, but I got a great deal on it ($50) and couldn't pass it up.

So really, and no offense Mad because I do appreciate what you have said, but your system is only $10 cheaper than the 6 core one, which is why I started looking at the 6 core in the first place. I was just wondering if there was a cheaper way without using obsolete technology.

Cold sleep, they also have a combo that substitutes the 1tb drive for a 90gb ssd, which I may go for instead. Mind you, and I didn't notice the difference right away, but it is about $70 more for that combo. Here it is:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.548081

 

[rwpritchett]

Just to help you out about the discreet vs onboard video decision- I use a 785G motherboard (HD4200) and it plays very high bitrate mkv's just fine. These are blu-ray rips with DD or DTS audio. Some are up to 20GB and are a mix of VC-1, h.264, and MPEG-2. No problems.

On a side note, even if the X6 and X3 builds are similar in price, the heat output may be very different so the admiral is trying to help you out there.

For an HTPC project, keep focus on these key factors:

#1 Make sure it will do everything you need it to do, keep needs separate from wants
#2 W.A.F.
#3 Keep it cool
#4 Keep it quiet (related to #3, and maybe even #2)
#5 K.I.S.S (keep it simple, stupid! related to #1)

 

[rednekcowboy]

Thanks for the info. I can squash getting a gpu for this build then, which makes me feel a lot better. I do have a lot of bluray rips over 10 GB, a couple over 15.

As far as admiral goes, I meant no disrespect and I'm truly sorry admiral if I cam across that way. You had a lot of good suggestions and I did take a couple of them.
I'm only going to use 4 GB of ram and I am going to use the spinpoint drives.

As far as the case goes, noise is not a factor but heat may be as wood is a good insulator. I was already planning on adding either a slot fan, like this:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114024&cm_re=pci_slot_fan-_-35-114-024-_-Product
or putting a couple of case fans in the front "speaker holes" somehow.

Noob question what does "W.A.F" stand for?? As for #3, 4, and 5, I'm trying to do my best. As for #1, I agree 100%, but I'm also logical, why spend even $100 less and use obsolete technology when you can spend a tiny amount more and be current. It may not be current for long, but that makes the even older technology that much more obsolete and harder to get for repairs if the need arises.

 

[rwpritchett]

Noob question what does "W.A.F" stand for??

Ah yes, you will see this acronym thrown around a lot in HTPC discussions. WAF = Wife Acceptance Factor. I've only seen one thread in which a "HAF" term was used... most of us HTPC'ers are men.

Edit- WAF may actually be #1 on the list I gave :lol:

 

[coldsleep]

WAF = Wife Acceptance Factor - not really a technical term, but it's been gaining momentum here over the last few weeks. (As rwpritchett points out, it's probably in use elsewhere, but it's not common usage around Tom's...yet.)

For comparison, on the newegg.ca site, the i3-530 is about $118, and a Gigabyte H55 mobo is $120. That, plus RAM ($60-70) & HDD = $300 + HDD costs. Unsure how much you were thinking of dropping on HDDs.

Every current processor (X6, X4, i3, i5) is going to be old tech in a few months. If it was feasible, I might consider waiting until the Bulldozer/Fusion stuff comes out, the IGP on those chips is supposed to be very capable.

 

[rednekcowboy]

WAF is what started this whole thing in the first place. I had a sweet setup (in it's day) that she made sell because it looked ugly and she hated it.
I, in turn, took the proceeds from that sale and bought myself a really nice laptop, however I don't like hooking it up and unhooking it and running it constantly all day long everyday.
That gets us where we are. I'm going a bit overkill and a bit overbudget, but I think that's just my way of getting back at her for making me sell my last pc, so if I want to turn this into a gaming rig, well all I have to do is add a gpu and I'm good to go. Considering I'm almost twice the budget I started out with, I think I'm doing rather well!! LOL

 

[MadAdmiral]

MadAdmiral and coldsleep are both 100% correct in that what I'm suggesting is overkill. However the total for MadAdmiral's setup is $563 on the canadian site that is a sister site to the one he provided links for. I can do the 6 core setup with this bundle for $463:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.548075

I would still have to add another $110 for another hdd and that would bring the total to $573. The only differences being I have one 1tb and one 2tb drive and am using a mobo with an onboard GPU. So if I had to get the 5450 he pointed out it would be another $67.

The case I'm using is wood, so I'm not worried about the noise. I guess I was more wondering about cheaping out on the processor and am worried that the onboard gpu would not be enough to handle the large HD files that I have. As far as the PSU goes, I know it's not ideal, but I got a great deal on it ($50) and couldn't pass it up.

So really, and no offense Mad because I do appreciate what you have said, but your system is only $10 cheaper than the 6 core one, which is why I started looking at the 6 core in the first place. I was just wondering if there was a cheaper way without using obsolete technology.

That cheaper price is due to getting very bad sticks of RAM. OCZ's sticks are pretty much the only brand of DDR3 I'd actively avoid.

Nothing I suggested was "obsolete technology". If you want to be technical about it, the X6 1055T is obsolete too. There's the 1090T that's more powerful, as is the i7-930/950 (in most applications) and the i7-980X. Of course, the X6 is $230, the i7-930/950 are $300, and the i7-980X is around $1,000.

I'm also going to dispute your prices. I quoted everything (excluding the PSU) off Newegg.ca, and the total comes to $532.50 after rebates, and that includes 2x 2 TB HDDs. That combo only has a single (and lower quality) 1 TB drive. Here's the links to everything:

X3 445 and HD 5450 $112.50 after rebate
Samsung Spinpoint F4 2 TB $110 ($220 for two)
G.Skill Eco 2x2 GB 1600 mhz CAS Latency 7 $91
Asus M4A87TD/USB3 $109

 

[rednekcowboy]

For comparison, on the newegg.ca site, the i3-530 is about $118, and a Gigabyte H55 mobo is $120. That, plus RAM ($60-70) & HDD = $300 + HDD costs. Unsure how much you were thinking of dropping on HDDs.

Yup, with your calculations, with the hdd's it would be $520, so I would save around $40-$50, but from the reviews that I've read, intel's onboard video blows, so I would have to add $67 to your costs which brings you up to $587 which is $10 over the 6 core costs.

When is the bulldozer supposed to be released? That would lower the costs significantly on these processors.

 

[MadAdmiral]

Intel's old onboard graphics are bad. Their newer "integrated" graphics are much, much better. That's where they use the CPU in combination with the chipset to produce the video muscle. It's actually quite a bit better than AMD's onboard video. It's even capable of playing some games at lower resolutions and details.

 

[rednekcowboy]

That cheaper price is due to getting very bad sticks of RAM. OCZ's sticks are pretty much the only brand of DDR3 I'd actively avoid.

Nothing I suggested was "obsolete technology". If you want to be technical about it, the X6 1055T is obsolete too. There's the 1090T that's more powerful, as is the i7-930/950 (in most applications) and the i7-980X. Of course, the X6 is $230, the i7-930/950 are $300, and the i7-980X is around $1,000.

I'm also going to dispute your prices. I quoted everything (excluding the PSU) off Newegg.ca, and the total comes to $532.50 after rebates, and that includes 2x 2 TB HDDs. That combo only has a single (and lower quality) 1 TB drive. Here's the links to everything:

X3 445 and HD 5450 $112.50 after rebate
Samsung Spinpoint F4 2 TB $110 ($220 for two)
G.Skill Eco 2x2 GB 1600 mhz CAS Latency 7 $91
Asus M4A87TD/USB3 $109

You are correct sir, however, just about everything you've said here, I've mentioned already. Even using your revised quotes, you are still using an outdated processor and only saving me about $40. So if you really want to look at it, I'm paying an xtra $40 to double the processor, which is a damn good deal, if I do say so myself.

And no the x6 is not (neither is the i5 or i7) obsolete by any means. It's the most current technology available to consumers today, how exactly is that obsolete? Just because there's different versions of them, doesn't make them obsolete. It's smart marketing, have a price point for every user. The x3, while not being too old, is not current, it's last gen.

At any rate, thank you for your suggestions, I do appreciate the advice, but unless you can figure out something that you can recommend and save me over $100, I think I'll go with what makes the most sense.

 

[coldsleep]

Yeah, the new i3/i5 are capable of Blu-ray playback with HD audio. I have an i3/H55 setup that I'm using right now...I don't have a Blu-ray drive in it at the moment, but haven't had any video/audio problems with it so far.

 

[rednekcowboy]

Yeah, the new i3/i5 are capable of Blu-ray playback with HD audio. I have an i3/H55 setup that I'm using right now...I don't have a Blu-ray drive in it at the moment, but haven't had any video/audio problems with it so far.

Interesting, just a couple of questions on this:

Have you hooked it up to a large screen TV (50") and played a 20GB mkv/bluray rip? Is there any choppiness? Does the intel hdmi output sound over hdmi as well like the amd does? I'm assuming because the graphics run off of the cpu, the weaker the cpu, the worse the graphics, or is that just to an extent?

 

[MadAdmiral]

I have saved you over $100, and given you improved quality, once adjusted for the miscellaneous factors (HDD size, GPU). With the bundle, you're spending $463 with a 1 TB HDD and no GPU. Add in the $110 for a 2 TB, then another $80 for another 1 TB HDD (to bring the total storage to 4 TB) brings the total cost to $653. Then you've got to add in the GPU for an additional $36 (the XFX one with the $15 rebate), which brings a final total to $689. Compare that to my $533, and you've saved $156. Is an X6 worth $160ish more than the X3? Not for an HTPC...

To answer the question about the Intel HDMI output, it does output audio and video, just like AMD's (newest) onboard graphics and the various discrete GPUs. Also, the size of the screen does not affect the amount of graphics power needed at all. The only thing that matters is the resolution.

Graphics quality is mostly based on the GPU power, but in reality movies (regardless of quality) don't stress it that much. Think of it this way: movies will show the same resolution (1080p) with the same intensity at a fixed lower rate. This will not cause a huge amount of power to accomplish. On the other had, games are were the real graphics intensity comes into play. They require varying degrees of intensity, with various objects needed to be randomly generated in an instant, at a fixed resolution (1080p or whatever you set it at in game) at a higher frame rate. That's were the challenge comes in.

 

[coldsleep]

Interesting, just a couple of questions on this:

Have you hooked it up to a large screen TV (50") and played a 20GB mkv/bluray rip? Is there any choppiness? Does the intel hdmi output sound over hdmi as well like the amd does? I'm assuming because the graphics run off of the cpu, the weaker the cpu, the worse the graphics, or is that just to an extent?

I haven't, unfortunately.

Here are a couple of reviews that indicate that the i3 is just fine at Blu-ray playback...pulled up with a quick google search, so you might want to read thoroughly to make sure I didn't miss critical details.
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1019/pg13/asrock-core-100ht-bd-mini-core-i3-htpc-review-high-definition-playback.html - "With a maximum CPU use of 14% this mean that we can play 1080p (and 720p) files with ease and it also ensures there are resources free to perform other tasks while HD content is playing."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2901/3 - "If you have a Clarkdale CPU and a H55, H57 or Q57 motherboard, you can bitstream Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA over HDMI. Outputting 8-channel LPCM over HDMI is also supported. I’ve tested it and it just works. Using an Intel supplied build of PowerDVD 9 I had no problems bitstreaming either codec from a variety of BDs."
http://techreport.com/articles.x/18216/5 - "On the Core i5-661, utilization ranged from 2-10%, with an average of about 5%. Obviously, Clarkdale's ability to offload decode chores from the CPU is reasonably complete." (i5-661 is same family as the i3)

 

[rednekcowboy]

I have saved you over $100, and given you improved quality, once adjusted for the miscellaneous factors (HDD size, GPU). With the bundle, you're spending $463 with a 1 TB HDD and no GPU. Add in the $110 for a 2 TB, then another $80 for another 1 TB HDD (to bring the total storage to 4 TB) brings the total cost to $653. Then you've got to add in the GPU for an additional $36 (the XFX one with the $15 rebate), which brings a final total to $689. Compare that to my $533, and you've saved $156. Is an X6 worth $160ish more than the X3? Not for an HTPC...

I may be nitpicking here, however so are you, so let's roll with it. With my setup, I do not need to purchase the gpu, we've confirmed that with rw's post. So the one that you had quoted previously costs $67 so take $80 for the terrabyte that I would have to buy to equal your 4 tb and they almost cancel each other out. In being realistic, with my combo, I wouldn't by the extra terrabyte drive, but I may substitute it with a 2tb which would add $30 if I chose to do that. In all reality, I would just leave it as is, so we are back to where we started, where I would only save $40 with your setup compared to mine and I would lose 1tb of drive space.

Thanks again for the advice, but I still can't, in reality drop to a 3 core processor to save $40.

 

[rednekcowboy]

I haven't, unfortunately.

Here are a couple of reviews that indicate that the i3 is just fine at Blu-ray playback...pulled up with a quick google search, so you might want to read thoroughly to make sure I didn't miss critical details.
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1019/pg13/asrock-core-100ht-bd-mini-core-i3-htpc-review-high-definition-playback.html - "With a maximum CPU use of 14% this mean that we can play 1080p (and 720p) files with ease and it also ensures there are resources free to perform other tasks while HD content is playing."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2901/3 - "If you have a Clarkdale CPU and a H55, H57 or Q57 motherboard, you can bitstream Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA over HDMI. Outputting 8-channel LPCM over HDMI is also supported. I’ve tested it and it just works. Using an Intel supplied build of PowerDVD 9 I had no problems bitstreaming either codec from a variety of BDs."
http://techreport.com/articles.x/18216/5 - "On the Core i5-661, utilization ranged from 2-10%, with an average of about 5%. Obviously, Clarkdale's ability to offload decode chores from the CPU is reasonably complete." (i5-661 is same family as the i3)

Thanks for this, very informative and you've given me something to think about if I can find a way to feasibly build an i5 system, this may way heavily into my final decision.

 

[MadAdmiral]

If you don't want the extra GPU, swap the boards I mentioned for a different 8xx chipset board like the Asus M4A88TD-M/USB3 for $105. Actually, use that board instead of the other one I mentioned. I didn't know it was actually cheaper than the other Asus...

Once you switch the boards, you don't need the GPU with either build. Once you remove the cost of the 5450, you'd be saving $81 (with the other board) with my build, while getting an extra 1 TB of storage (if you really want to, you could get a 1 TB and a 2 TB drive and save an additional $30), and getting higher quality and better performing RAM and HDDs.

On the Intel side, I wouldn't get an i5-6xx. They're overly expensive (dual cores for the price of quads) and not that powerful. Instead, I'd go with one of the i3s. They're a lot cheaper and have all the same features.

 

[coldsleep]

On the Intel side, I wouldn't get an i5-6xx. They're overly expensive (dual cores for the price of quads) and not that powerful. Instead, I'd go with one of the i3s. They're a lot cheaper and have all the same features.

Precisely. You can do this with either AMD or Intel, but if you go Intel, don't pay for more than the i3-530. I have an i3-540 only because it was on sale for the same price as the 530 when I bought it.

 

[rednekcowboy]

Ok, so I could go with this one for $328.00:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.548050
I would then just have to add a 2tb drive and some sort of dvd/bluray drive like this one for $70:
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151199&cm_re=bluray-_-27-151-199-_-Product

Which still brings me up to $510, but that's everything in, i think....
Anything I'm missing?

 

[MadAdmiral]

I don't see that you're missing anything. I'd still consider the AMD builds despite the added cost. The AM3 socket is going to be around for a while, while the LGA1156 socket is going to be replaced soon. This means that AMD has a better upgrade path, which is important if you're concerned about being able to upgrade and play games well. Both the i3s and the X3 445 will be able to play games well (especially once the X3 is unlocked and both are overclocked) for now, but the i3 will very quickly fall behind, leaving you no options to keep the current build performing at a high level.

 

[rednekcowboy]

I don't see that you're missing anything. I'd still consider the AMD builds despite the added cost. The AM3 socket is going to be around for a while, while the LGA1156 socket is going to be replaced soon. This means that AMD has a better upgrade path, which is important if you're concerned about being able to upgrade and play games well. Both the i3s and the X3 445 will be able to play games well (especially once the X3 is unlocked and both are overclocked) for now, but the i3 will very quickly fall behind, leaving you no options to keep the current build performing at a high level.

This was kind of my point, which is why I wanted to stay with AMD, however I have some thinking to do. You guys have given me a lot to chew on. I see on newegg that the new quadcore i5's are the same price as the dual core ones, so that may be something to look at as well, however then I'm bringing the price up again about $100.

I've got a couple of emails out to a couple of different places to see what kind of bundle deal they will give me as well. There are a couple of local shops here, but they are pretty much useless. They just can't match places like newegg in terms of pricing--not even close and while I'd rather buy local, it's sad to say that I just can't justify paying $50 more an item( in some cases more).

 

[coldsleep]

This was kind of my point, which is why I wanted to stay with AMD, however I have some thinking to do. You guys have given me a lot to chew on. I see on newegg that the new quadcore i5's are the same price as the dual core ones, so that may be something to look at as well, however then I'm bringing the price up again about $100.

The quadcore i5s (i5-750, etc.) don't have the integrated graphics required for the H55 mobo. That plan isn't going to work.