Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

White Balance

Last response: in Digital Camera
Share
January 14, 2005 12:54:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

White balance is described in my camera manual as simple 'temperature'
warm to cool but in photoshop there is no equivalent tool for that
simple of an adjustment. My CRT monitor also has a temperature control
and a more custom RGB option. Also it seems oversimplified, shouldn't it
be more complex? For the custom WB shot with the camera, I assume it
figures something more complex that simple warm/cool.

More about : white balance

Anonymous
January 15, 2005 1:55:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

paul puts on the robe and wizard hat... HARRRRRRRRRR:

> White balance is described in my camera manual as simple
'temperature'
> warm to cool but in photoshop there is no equivalent tool for that
> simple of an adjustment. My CRT monitor also has a temperature control
> and a more custom RGB option. Also it seems oversimplified, shouldn't
it
> be more complex? For the custom WB shot with the camera, I assume it
> figures something more complex that simple warm/cool.
>

It sets the temperature of white .. well.. that might not be quite right
but for all intents and purposes..

To access it in photoshop I believe you need to shoot in RAW mode. Then
when you open the image in photoshop you get presented with a menu that
allows you to change the WB temperature.

Custom white balance means you point the camera at something white in
your area with the light you are shooting in, and then tell the camera
that that is white. This tells the camera what the temperature white is,
allowing for amore accurate redicition of the colours in your picture.
Most people have this set to auto but the custom setting should usually
give the best results. There will be presets too like "sunny, cloudy or
tungsten light" etc however the shooting situation doesnt always match
one of those directly.

However.. its just a slider of temperature measured in Kelvin. So.. its
fairly basic but critical to getting good colours in photos.


--
Dave

Get me away from here I’m dying
Play me a song to set me free
January 15, 2005 1:55:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David Beamish wrote:

> paul puts on the robe and wizard hat... HARRRRRRRRRR:
>
....
>
>>be more complex? For the custom WB shot with the camera, I assume it
>>figures something more complex that simple warm/cool.
>>
>
>
> It sets the temperature of white .. well.. that might not be quite right
> but for all intents and purposes..
>
> To access it in photoshop I believe you need to shoot in RAW mode. Then
> when you open the image in photoshop you get presented with a menu that
> allows you to change the WB temperature.
>
> Custom white balance means you point the camera at something white in
> your area with the light you are shooting in, and then tell the camera
> that that is white. This tells the camera what the temperature white is,
> allowing for amore accurate redicition of the colours in your picture.
> Most people have this set to auto but the custom setting should usually
> give the best results. There will be presets too like "sunny, cloudy or
> tungsten light" etc however the shooting situation doesnt always match
> one of those directly.
>
> However.. its just a slider of temperature measured in Kelvin. So.. its
> fairly basic but critical to getting good colours in photos.


Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
adjustment? If I do auto levels with the eyedropper on a white object in
the picture, it adjusts RGB separately in mysteious and non-intuitive ways.
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
January 15, 2005 3:13:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
> cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
> complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
> adjustment?

PS-7: on the menu bar at the top of the screen,

Edit/Adjustments/Hue-Saturation, then play to your hearts content
January 15, 2005 3:13:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Canongirly wrote:
>
>> Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
>> cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
>> complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
>> adjustment?
>
>
> PS-7: on the menu bar at the top of the screen,
>
> Edit/Adjustments/Hue-Saturation, then play to your hearts content


Hue adjustment cycles through a rainbow, not a simple warm/cool range.

It is very confusing.

I just don't understand. It's not like I know better: I'm clueless how
the WB could be so simple.
Anonymous
January 15, 2005 3:13:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"paul" <paul@not.net> wrote in message
news:VPednRmmJsSdNnXcRVn-pg@speakeasy.net...
> Canongirly wrote:
>>
>>> Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
>>> cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
>>> complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
>>> adjustment?
>>
>>
>> PS-7: on the menu bar at the top of the screen,
>>
>> Edit/Adjustments/Hue-Saturation, then play to your hearts content
>
>
> Hue adjustment cycles through a rainbow, not a simple warm/cool range.
>
> It is very confusing.
>
> I just don't understand. It's not like I know better: I'm clueless how the
> WB could be so simple.

Paul,

Allow me to offer some info from the world of TV production that may help
explain white balance.

Most important thing to bear in mind: WB is not fixable by adjusting HUE.

In TV we rely on two specific scopes that allow us to properly set up TV
cameras before a broadcast:

-Waveform Monitor (it's actually a scope)
-Vector Scope

The Waveform shows us relative luminance (in tens of units) from zero to 100
units of video. We use this to set how bright the whites will be, how dark
the blacks will be and where the mid range or gamma will be. In Photoshop,
this equates to adjusting the hightlights, shadows and mid tones. During a
show, this scope is where we watch the effect of how open or closed the
camera iris's are.

Color set up uses the aforementioned Vector Scope and I think you'll be able
to make the connection with a little explanation.

Picture a TV station that has signed off for the night. They often put up
the test pattern known as "Color Bars." "Bars" (as we call them) allow us
to make sure that each primary and secondary color we use in TV is at the
right frequency and the right modulation. A Vector Scope has a circular
display consisting of a central dot (more on this in a moment) and six boxes
around the edge into which yellow, cyan, green, magenta, red and blue will
fall and show up as individual dots when all is set up correctly.

Now, there are two other dots with which we are concerned. One should show
us a specific lack of luminance (black) and a specific lack of chroma
(white.) We know each color falls into a specific quadrant of the display,
so if we see that the very center of the signal is off center say, toward
green or toward blue, then we know our white balance and/or our black
balance is off and we can add or subtract some red/blue/green to get that
centroid back in the middle of the display.

In the "old days" of color photo printing, you would adjust
cyan/yellow/magenta levels to white balance a print before exposing the
paper. In TV we use red/blue/green instead. IIRC you can set up Photoshop
to work in CYK instead of RBG if that it your preference.

This is why you cannot fix a WB problem with hue. Hue just spins the entire
pallette clockwise or counter clockwise directly around your white/black
center. If your center is off toward green, then if you adjust the hue, you
just get a greenish picture that can be made greener yet or pinker but your
white balance is still off toward green.

My favorite tool for fixing white balance issues in still photos is the
pallet of tools in Photoshop Elements called "Color Variation." CV allows
you to selectively add or subtract red/blue/green in any or all of the
highlites, midtones and/or shadows and this will allow you to combat a
black/white balance that is being pulled off center.

This may qualify as overkill post of the week (maybe month) but I hope it
helps. Just remember to think of where your white/black center is. With
color temp issues, sometimes adding a layer of 2 or 3% worth of a solid
orange or blue frame can help warm up or cool off an image that was shot too
cold (in Shadow) or too warm (in Tungsten.)

Feel free to ask any questions and I can maybe simplify this even farther.

Regards,

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
Amateur Photog
Freelance Video Technician
January 15, 2005 10:55:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

One up for Paint Shop Pro. Automatic Color Balance gives access to a
temperature slider that works perfectly.


"paul" <paul@not.net> wrote in message
news:VPednRmmJsSdNnXcRVn-pg@speakeasy.net...
> Canongirly wrote:
>>
>>> Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
>>> cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
>>> complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
>>> adjustment?
>>
>>
>> PS-7: on the menu bar at the top of the screen,
>>
>> Edit/Adjustments/Hue-Saturation, then play to your hearts content
>
>
> Hue adjustment cycles through a rainbow, not a simple warm/cool range.
>
> It is very confusing.
>
> I just don't understand. It's not like I know better: I'm clueless how the
> WB could be so simple.
January 15, 2005 1:40:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>
> Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
> cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more complicated.
> Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider adjustment? If I do
> auto levels with the eyedropper on a white object in the picture, it
> adjusts RGB separately in mysteious and non-intuitive ways.

Buy Paint Shop Pro and use Effects>Enhance Photo>Automatic Colour
Balance>Illuminant temperature and move the slider between Warmer (orange )
and Cooler (Blue) for the look you want.
January 15, 2005 1:40:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

dylan wrote:
>
>>Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider adjustment?
>
>
> Buy Paint Shop Pro and use Effects>Enhance Photo>Automatic Colour
> Balance>Illuminant temperature and move the slider between Warmer (orange )
> and Cooler (Blue) for the look you want.


Heh, yeah OK I grant you that!
January 15, 2005 1:55:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jay Beckman wrote:

> "paul" <paul@not.net> wrote in message
> news:VPednRmmJsSdNnXcRVn-pg@speakeasy.net...
>
>>Canongirly wrote:
>>
>>>>Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
>>>>cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
>>>>complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
>>>>adjustment?
>>>
>>>
>>>PS-7: on the menu bar at the top of the screen,
>>>
>>>Edit/Adjustments/Hue-Saturation, then play to your hearts content
>>
>>
>>Hue adjustment cycles through a rainbow, not a simple warm/cool range.
> ...
> Picture a TV station that has signed off for the night. They often put up
> the test pattern known as "Color Bars." "Bars" (as we call them) allow us
> to make sure that each primary and secondary color we use in TV is at the
> right frequency and the right modulation. A Vector Scope has a circular
> display consisting of a central dot (more on this in a moment) and six boxes
> around the edge into which yellow, cyan, green, magenta, red and blue will
> fall and show up as individual dots when all is set up correctly.
>
> Now, there are two other dots with which we are concerned. One should show
> us a specific lack of luminance (black) and a specific lack of chroma
> (white.) We know each color falls into a specific quadrant of the display,
> so if we see that the very center of the signal is off center say, toward
> green or toward blue, then we know our white balance and/or our black
> balance is off and we can add or subtract some red/blue/green to get that
> centroid back in the middle of the display.
>
> In the "old days" of color photo printing, you would adjust
> cyan/yellow/magenta levels to white balance a print before exposing the
> paper. In TV we use red/blue/green instead. IIRC you can set up Photoshop
> to work in CYK instead of RBG if that it your preference.
>
> This is why you cannot fix a WB problem with hue. Hue just spins the entire
> pallette clockwise or counter clockwise directly around your white/black
> center. If your center is off toward green, then if you adjust the hue, you
> just get a greenish picture that can be made greener yet or pinker but your
> white balance is still off toward green.
>
> My favorite tool for fixing white balance issues in still photos is the
> pallet of tools in Photoshop Elements called "Color Variation." CV allows
> you to selectively add or subtract red/blue/green in any or all of the
> highlites, midtones and/or shadows and this will allow you to combat a
> black/white balance that is being pulled off center.
> ...

Yes the RGB circular centering thing makes sense. I don't know how it
can even be simplified to a cool/warm slider. The color variation thing
is interesting to quickly see some options but I don't quite get how to
use that tool.

It can be done with curves but requires switching between R, G & B & it
very tedious.

I just played around some more and the channel mixer seems very easy to
use for tweaking RGB on a slider though I don't get how it also needs to
be set to R, G or B.

Channel mixer is similar using CMYK against Reds, Greens, etc. about 6
different things so it's awfully complex.

Hmm Color Balance is the easiest one to use. Simple RGB sliders all on
one page.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 12:53:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <cs9n6j$799$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Canongirly" <me@me.com> wrote:

>
>> Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
>> cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
>> complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
>> adjustment?
>
>PS-7: on the menu bar at the top of the screen,
>
>Edit/Adjustments/Hue-Saturation, then play to your hearts content

That's something else entirely. Color or white balance changes the
relative scaling of *existing* R, G, and B in the image, and simulates
what you can do by changing light color. Hue is the color that is left
after saturation and brightness are discounted. Hue changes keep the
saturation and brightness the same, but change the color to *any* color
that has the same saturation and brightness. Hue changes do not emulate
any real-world lighting process.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 1:13:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <HYednY41lq-8-nTcRVn-1Q@speakeasy.net>,
paul <paul@not.net> wrote:

>Yes the RGB circular centering thing makes sense. I don't know how it
>can even be simplified to a cool/warm slider.

It is simplified that way because lights with burning filaments
generally have color differences that are rectifiable with a
one-dimensional slider. The better color balance controls also have a
"tint" slider, which goes from purplish on one end, to green on the
other.


--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 11:51:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:19:01 -0700, "Jay Beckman" <jnsbeckman@cox.net>
wrote:

>
>"paul" <paul@not.net> wrote in message
>news:VPednRmmJsSdNnXcRVn-pg@speakeasy.net...
>> Canongirly wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shouldn't correcting WB after the fact (without RAW) be as simple as a
>>>> cool/warm slider? Twiddling RGB (or CMYK) is a whole lot more
>>>> complicated. Why doesn't photoshop have a simple cool/warm slider
>>>> adjustment?
>>>
>>>
>>> PS-7: on the menu bar at the top of the screen,
>>>
>>> Edit/Adjustments/Hue-Saturation, then play to your hearts content
>>
>>
>> Hue adjustment cycles through a rainbow, not a simple warm/cool range.
>>
>> It is very confusing.
>>
>> I just don't understand. It's not like I know better: I'm clueless how the
>> WB could be so simple.
>
>Paul,
>
>Allow me to offer some info from the world of TV production that may help
>explain white balance.
>
>Most important thing to bear in mind: WB is not fixable by adjusting HUE.
>
>In TV we rely on two specific scopes that allow us to properly set up TV
>cameras before a broadcast:
>
>-Waveform Monitor (it's actually a scope)
>-Vector Scope
>
>The Waveform shows us relative luminance (in tens of units) from zero to 100
>units of video. We use this to set how bright the whites will be, how dark
>the blacks will be and where the mid range or gamma will be. In Photoshop,
>this equates to adjusting the hightlights, shadows and mid tones. During a
>show, this scope is where we watch the effect of how open or closed the
>camera iris's are.
>
>Color set up uses the aforementioned Vector Scope and I think you'll be able
>to make the connection with a little explanation.
>
>Picture a TV station that has signed off for the night. They often put up
>the test pattern known as "Color Bars." "Bars" (as we call them) allow us
>to make sure that each primary and secondary color we use in TV is at the
>right frequency and the right modulation. A Vector Scope has a circular
>display consisting of a central dot (more on this in a moment) and six boxes
>around the edge into which yellow, cyan, green, magenta, red and blue will
>fall and show up as individual dots when all is set up correctly.
>
>Now, there are two other dots with which we are concerned. One should show
>us a specific lack of luminance (black) and a specific lack of chroma
>(white.) We know each color falls into a specific quadrant of the display,
>so if we see that the very center of the signal is off center say, toward
>green or toward blue, then we know our white balance and/or our black
>balance is off and we can add or subtract some red/blue/green to get that
>centroid back in the middle of the display.
>
>In the "old days" of color photo printing, you would adjust
>cyan/yellow/magenta levels to white balance a print before exposing the
>paper. In TV we use red/blue/green instead. IIRC you can set up Photoshop
>to work in CYK instead of RBG if that it your preference.
>
>This is why you cannot fix a WB problem with hue. Hue just spins the entire
>pallette clockwise or counter clockwise directly around your white/black
>center. If your center is off toward green, then if you adjust the hue, you
>just get a greenish picture that can be made greener yet or pinker but your
>white balance is still off toward green.
>
>My favorite tool for fixing white balance issues in still photos is the
>pallet of tools in Photoshop Elements called "Color Variation." CV allows
>you to selectively add or subtract red/blue/green in any or all of the
>highlites, midtones and/or shadows and this will allow you to combat a
>black/white balance that is being pulled off center.
>
>This may qualify as overkill post of the week (maybe month) but I hope it
>helps. Just remember to think of where your white/black center is. With
>color temp issues, sometimes adding a layer of 2 or 3% worth of a solid
>orange or blue frame can help warm up or cool off an image that was shot too
>cold (in Shadow) or too warm (in Tungsten.)
>
>Feel free to ask any questions and I can maybe simplify this even farther.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jay Beckman
>Chandler, AZ
>Amateur Photog
>Freelance Video Technician
>

I am a retired TV tech from the UK. We were in and at it as soon as
colour started in UK. At a radio (&TV) show I was hailed by one of
the people on the BBC stand. I had bought all the equipment that I
thought necessary, like updating the scope to 100Mhz getting a Philips
signal generator and a colour bar generator. I therefore thought I was
ok. However I was shown a portable flourescent tube which was to be
used on service. The tube was calibrated at 6500 degrees Kelwin and
graduated in about 6 blocks down to black.

That was said to be a necessety for setting up a television correctly.
As you can imagine, the black and dark greys were easy to set but the
white was another kettle of fish. I was advised to go and look at
various manufacturers display and find the one I liked the best and
then compare with the rest, all displaying the test card. The
difference was immense - I reported back to BBC and then they told me
where to obtain what in our shop was named as a monochrome stick.

All sets in the shop was set up using that stick and staff was told to
make the customers aware that we had all sets tuned to the same
station to show that there was no difference from one set to another
and tell a waivering customer to go elsewhere and then ask the sales
person to switch all their sets to the same station to compare from
one set to another. Even from the same factory they could not be
relied on to be right.

We made a lot of sales like that and now some 40 years or more down
the line I am going to get one of the monochrome sticks out of the
shed and try to set white balance from that. I have had trouble with
my Canon S1 which would not photograph a Bourgainvilla bush coming up
with the same colours as my Olympus 2100 UZ or the Pentax Optio S.

My site http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~borge contains a exe file
obtained from Irfan View at
http://www.members.iinet.net.au/~borge/Flowers.exe. Beware, that site
will download the Flowers.exe to your usual download folder where you
can call it up and see the difference from one camera to the next.
Display shows Camera in the top left of the three pictures.

I shall try to adjust the Canon today using the monochrome stick and
let you know the result.

B.Pedersen Latitude -31,48.21 Longitude115,47.40 Time=GMT+8.00
If you are curious look here http://www.mapquest.com/maps/latlong.adp
!