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Which one is better for GTS250 or GTX 460

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February 18, 2011 5:50:24 AM

hi im looking for a cheap PSU that is powerful enough to handle Inno3D GTS 250 or Palit GTX 460 Sonic 1GB DDR5.

the website says that 450W 12V:24A is already enough for both GPU, except that GTX460 needs 2 power connectors lol. so i browsed on the pricelist of a store here and here are my choices- i hope you guys can help me :D  :

IMaster SLI 80PLUS
FSP Supersonic Series 80PLUS
CoolerMaster EXtreme
Thermaltake LitePower
Acbel CE2
Huntkey Green Power
Huntkey Balance King

all of those are 500W PSUs

BTW, i've read on the net that there are PSUs that has 2 12V rails just like thermaltake litepower - 12V1:18A, 12V2:18A (according to newegg). does it mean that it has a total of 12V:36A? sorry i'm not really familiar with PSUs :( 

thanks for your help guys:D 

More about : gts250 gtx 460

February 18, 2011 6:39:26 AM

ejcelis said:
hi im looking for a cheap PSU that is powerful enough to handle Inno3D GTS 250 or Palit GTX 460 Sonic 1GB DDR5.

the website says that 450W 12V:24A is already enough for both GPU, except that GTX460 needs 2 power connectors lol. so i browsed on the pricelist of a store here and here are my choices- i hope you guys can help me :D  :

IMaster SLI 80PLUS
FSP Supersonic Series
CoolerMaster EXtreme
Thermaltake LitePower
Acbel CE2
Huntkey Green Power
Huntkey Balance King

all of those are 500W PSUs

BTW, i've read on the net that there are PSUs that has 2 12V rails just like thermaltake litepower - 12V1:18A, 12V2:18A (according to newegg). does it mean that it has a total of 12V:36A? sorry i'm not really familiar with PSUs :( 

thanks for your help guys:D 


From your list:

- FSP has a history of making bland looking but well designed power supplies. Some of their power supplies may have a generic gray chassis, but some of those models are 80Plus Bronze and Silver certified. You need to double-check if the Supersonic is at least 80plus. From what I've read FSP is generally an okay brand.

- Thermaltake LitePower - this sly little devil has 2 variants, the 80% efficiency and the OEM 65% efficiency. The reviews you'd find detail the 80% model and not the 65% one. I can't really comment on the 65% but I'd stay away from it due to the sheer inefficiency. The 80% model does come recommended as a cheap good psu, though this probably wouldn't be my #1 recommendation for you.

- CoolerMaster EXtreme - http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Huntkey-Balance-...
Not a really good power supply. It has some good components, but it fails to deliver.


- ACBel - There are good ACBel's and there are bad ACBel's. It'd be best if you look for a review before even thinking of purchasing this one.

- IMaster - The name seems dubious, and I doubt you'd find reviews for it.

- HuntKey Balance King - http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Huntkey-Balance-...
Delivers its rated wattage at nearly 80% efficiency, but mediocre materials used for internals. Not recommended.

- Huntkey Green Star - http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Huntkey-Green-St...
I'm not 100% sure if this is the same unit, but the reviewer's unit did die when they pulled 100% off of it. Stay away from this one.


Most here would recommend Corsairs, Antecs, or Seasonics.
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February 18, 2011 6:59:52 AM

@amnotanoobi: eyes, FSPs are good according to some. but i can't find any reviews on that brand.

here, i've seen this from ttake. it's their lite version:
http://www.thermaltake.com/product_info.aspx?PARENT_CID...

but i've seen another review from ttakeUSA:
http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/Product.aspx?C=1247&ID=18...

which one is true? lol

how bout the dual 12V output? do i have to add the 2 12V rails for me to get the actual DC output power of the PSU (like 12V1:18A + 12V2:18A = 12V:36A)? XD

thanks for your reply man! :D 
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Related resources
February 18, 2011 7:06:35 AM

Quote:
OP whats up with the post title lol

GeForce GTX 460 in SLi - 42A and a 650W PSU minimum
GeForce GTX 460 - 26A and a 450W PSU minimum

GeForce GTS 250 - 32A and a 500W PSU minimum

^now thats on a power hungry system which means headroom are included. So anything from a 450 psu will do fine

heres a list you can look at

Corsair TX 650W - 52A on a single +12V rail
Seasonic X-Series 650W - 54A on a single +12V rail
XFX 650W XXX Edition - 52A on a single +12V rail
Corsair CX 600W - 40A on a single +12V rail
Corsair VX 550W - 41A on a single +12V rail
Corsair CX 500W - 34A on a single +12V rail
Corsair VX 450W - 33A on a single +12V rail
Corsair CX 430W - 28A on a single +12V rail
PC Power & Cooling Silencer 420W ATX - 30A on a single +12V rail
You can add the Seasonic 520W version as well to the list. They go for around 60usd but is real quality


rap, i can't find your recommended PSUs on the pricelist :( 
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February 18, 2011 7:12:19 AM

yeah... here's the link...

pcx.com.ph you can DL the pricelist on a link found on the right side of the page - SRP pricelist...

btw, i'm from philippines. ;) 
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February 18, 2011 7:54:41 AM

actually, i'm planning to build a decent rig and this is my 1st time. lol.
do i still need to buy an AVR?

sorry for my off topic question :( 
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a c 92 ) Power supply
February 18, 2011 3:32:41 PM

No, you don't just add the two numbers together. Each rail by itself might be able to handle 18A, but the single source feeding both can't usually provide that much power. For example, my Delta built Antec Earthwatts 500W has "two" rails, each rated at 22A. If you added those together you'd get 44A. On the unit itself however you'll read something like 12v1 + 12v2 not to exceed 408W, which is (408 / 12) 34A. Without that statement you wouldn't know how much 12V power you really have.

In order to pick your PSU you need to determine if you're buying the GTS250 or the GTX460. The GTS250 has a TDP (power draw) of 150W.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/913/2/

The GTX460 has a TDP of 150W as well.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1369/14/

The GTS250 only needs one PCIe connector, so that might play into your search. If you can afford a 400-500W from Antec or Seasonic you'll be fine with either card.

Edit: Totally forgot, AVR?
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February 18, 2011 9:00:24 PM

4745454b said:
No, you don't just add the two numbers together. Each rail by itself might be able to handle 18A, but the single source feeding both can't usually provide that much power. For example, my Delta built Antec Earthwatts 500W has "two" rails, each rated at 22A. If you added those together you'd get 44A. On the unit itself however you'll read something like 12v1 + 12v2 not to exceed 408W, which is (408 / 12) 34A. Without that statement you wouldn't know how much 12V power you really have.

In order to pick your PSU you need to determine if you're buying the GTS250 or the GTX460. The GTS250 has a TDP (power draw) of 150W.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/913/2/

The GTX460 has a TDP of 150W as well.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1369/14/

The GTS250 only needs one PCIe connector, so that might play into your search. If you can afford a 400-500W from Antec or Seasonic you'll be fine with either card.

Edit: Totally forgot, AVR?


i think the GTS250 suits my budget more (lol) so yah, i'll go for it.

with the FSP Epsilon, how do i determine the true power of the 12V rail?(uhh is that the right term?:S) since it has 4 12V outputs.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

and do i still have to worry if it's compatible with any motherboard? here's my pick:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

about the AVR(Automatic Voltage Regulator), its like a box where i usually plug all the components of my PC (monitor,cpu and printer). with my old rig, i really use that, but i've noticed that the PSUs today has switches at the back that's why i was wondering if i still need an AVR. XD

thanks for your reply man! ;) 

*edited:
can't find a 500W Antec PSU on the pricelist :(  that's why my other (/cheaper) choice is the Thermaltake Litepower 600W.
http://www.thermaltake.com.au/Products/PowerSupply/W035...
but i can't find the unit number on the list of www.80plus.com :( 
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a c 141 ) Power supply
February 18, 2011 9:28:49 PM

The best buy in high end PSU's these days has been XFX. All the Black Editions get 10.0 performance ratings and Core Editions 9.5 on jonnyguru.com Peyou will rareky save any significant sum going < 650 watts.rsonally, given pricing of "decent" PSU's,

$70 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsair TX650 and Antec EA-650 are a teeny step down but cost more money
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a c 92 ) Power supply
February 18, 2011 9:32:29 PM

Click on any of the pictures on the link you provided. (thank you for the link btw.) If you click on the fifth picture, you'll see the sticker on the side of the case. It shows that all four 12V rails combined can do 580W. This means that the max you can load that up to is 48.3. Lets just say 48A. Here is the confusing part however. While computers these days run mostly off of 12V power, some things still use 3.3 or 5V power. Its not a lot, but it's probably more then that 20W difference between 580W and 600W. My pure guess is you'll have 46A of usable 12V power on a normal rig. More then enough to power a 100W CPU and a 150W GPU. Toss in another 50W for board and other and your only looking at 300W for the system. That PSU should have no issues with that board.

AVR? Sounds like a power strip to me. The switch on the PSU only turns it on and off, not the computer. You use the front switch for that. You can use a power strip if you want, no problems there.

If no 500W Antec, what about a 430W? 450W corsair?
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February 18, 2011 10:01:42 PM

4745454b said:
Click on any of the pictures on the link you provided. (thank you for the link btw.) If you click on the fifth picture, you'll see the sticker on the side of the case. It shows that all four 12V rails combined can do 580W. This means that the max you can load that up to is 48.3. Lets just say 48A. Here is the confusing part however. While computers these days run mostly off of 12V power, some things still use 3.3 or 5V power. Its not a lot, but it's probably more then that 20W difference between 580W and 600W. My pure guess is you'll have 46A of usable 12V power on a normal rig. More then enough to power a 100W CPU and a 150W GPU. Toss in another 50W for board and other and your only looking at 300W for the system. That PSU should have no issues with that board.

AVR? Sounds like a power strip to me. The switch on the PSU only turns it on and off, not the computer. You use the front switch for that. You can use a power strip if you want, no problems there.

If no 500W Antec, what about a 430W? 450W corsair?


antec 450? yeah, there's one on the list. its Antec VP450 (Eff>78%) <-- what does this mean lol.

btw, i saw this image on yahoo. i think this is the test results of the FSP Epsilon:

http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2009/09/600w-...

thanks for your reply guys! :D 
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a c 92 ) Power supply
February 19, 2011 3:37:37 AM

The VP450 seems to be an Antec Basiq 450W. Here in the states we have a 430, but not really the 450W. (I did find some cases bundled with this PSU.) Doing some looking online the VP450 is made by FSP. Its not very good as you noticed the low efficiency. Most people I saw talking about it didn't like it.

Efficiency is how well a PSU converts AC electricity coming from your wall into the DC electricity your computer uses. As an extreme example, lets say your computer needs 200W of DC power and is only 50% efficient. This means it will be pulling 400W out of the wall. If it was 80% efficient, it would only pull 250W. This matters for two reasons. First, your electric company charges for the electricity you pull from them, so in this case either 400W or 250W. The less you pull, the cheaper your bill. Second, the PSU will emit as heat either the other 200W or 50W. How hot do you want your case and by extension your room?

As a basic PSU that one only has 360ish (they couldn't provide more info.) so you have 30A. Still enough power as I said you'd need around 300W, but I'm not sure I'd use that VP450. As for your pic, I can't find the article. It would appear however that at higher loads the 12v rails go out of spec. Probably want to avoid that as well. Not sure what PSU might be left. The 80% litepower sounds ok, but not the OEM one. You might be stuck using the FSP anyways.
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February 19, 2011 4:54:00 AM

@dadiggle: wow that's really a lot of help. thanks man. uhm where did you find that GTS 250 needs a 500W w/ 12V:35A PSU? coz Inno3D says that the power requirement was 400W w/ 12V:25A. maybe inno3D doesn't update their website regularly. lol. but thanks man, that really help a lot ;) 

@4745454b: so my electric bill doesn't depends on the wattage of my PSU? i mean, if i got a 700W 90% PSU, the power consumption is lesser than a 500W 80% one?

just wondering, what will happen if my PSU, got the required watts for a GPU but the 12V rail is not enough? like for example: a generic 500W PSU with a single 12V:19A handles a GT240 that needs a 12V current w/ 25A.

thanks! ;) 
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a c 92 ) Power supply
February 19, 2011 6:06:06 AM

Don't worry about diggles numbers, they are made up. (some are, others are correct.) Look at my previous posts, the GTS250 and GTX460 BOTH have a TDP of 150W. The GTX460 is probably a bit underrated as it has two 6pin plugs. Each of these plugs can supply 75W of power, or 150 in this case. Keep in mind that the PCIe slot itself can supply 75W as well, so it has up to 225W available to it. I doubt it uses much more then the 150W, but if they only gave it one PCIe plug you wouldn't be able to OC it very far. The important thing is that if they both require ~150W, they should both need the same amount of power. Its stupid to claim one needs 32A and the other needs 26. 6A * 12V = 72W, or one less PCIe plug. Notice however he claims the one needing more power is the one with one less plug. (as a side note I've told him his figures are off, but he usually responds with insults, etc so I've gave up talking to him.)

So, back on subject. Its mostly correct that your bill doesn't depend on the PSU. It gets a bit tricky however and you need to start looking at the real world. Most PSUs are most efficient at around 60-75%. Above and before this amount and the efficiency will go down. For example, if you have a PSU that is rated 80+ bronze, then it needs to be 82%, 85%, 82% efficient at 20%, 50%, and 100% load. This means if you have a 700W PSU, it will be most efficient at providing around 350-400W of power. If you have a 500W PSU however, it will be most efficient at providing 250-300W of power. The trick is to know how much power your system will need max and get one that can do it, and then find a PSU that is most efficient at the load your computer will be in most of the time. The easiest thing to do is to simply get one that will handle your system at load. The difference between 80%, 82%, and 85% in dollars per year doesn't amount to much.

Quote:
just wondering, what will happen if my PSU, got the required watts for a GPU but the 12V rail is not enough? like for example: a generic 500W PSU with a single 12V:19A handles a GT240 that needs a 12V current w/ 25A.


First off, a GT240 doesn't need 25A. The GT240 doesn't have any PCIe 6 pin plugs, so its maximum draw is limited to what it can get from the board, 75W. 75W / 12V = ~6A. A GT240 needs about 6A of 12V power to run. Even if you had one of those 125W CPUs, thats only another 10A. (we are up to 16A if you need help with the math.) Boards and drives don't need 9A, trust me on that that. Most GT240s would be paired with a lower end CPU, but even if you used one of those big 125W CPUs anything that can do 18-20A will be fine.

To answer the question, if you buy a PSU that has enough wattage but not enough amperage on the 12V rail, you'll have power problems. The CPU and/or GPU might throttle their clock speeds, causing lower then expected performance. Your computer might run ok, but when high electrical demands are placed on it it might just trip the protection circuits in the PSU (assuming they are there) and you'll have reboot or shutdown issues while gaming. Last, if those Over Current Protect (OCP) protection circuits aren't there or are set up incorrectly, it could cause the PSU to "blow up" taking who knows what with it. Yes, its as bad as it sounds.

If I HAD to pick from that list, I'd get the FSP. You only need around 300W, probably less then that. The rails were stable up to that point. If you can find something better then post here so we can confirm. Good luck with your build.

Edit: Forgot the link to the 80+ wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS
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a c 92 ) Power supply
February 19, 2011 6:33:15 AM

Thats in interesting link, but you linked the wrong product. Thats the newer 85% model, not the older FX600-GLN. They are different models.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2581

Quote:
Worth noting is that the Epsilon 80Plus 600W is not the same as the Epsilon FX600-GLN, which many mistakenly assume.


Quote:
Please dont talk bull lol


http://www.guru3d.com/article/msi- [...] iew-test/5


^Tell that to them


Did you read the article?

Quote:
and then add the CPU overclock, water-cooling, additional cold cathode lights etc.


While I take a slight CPU OC into account because many do that, not everyone runs their water cooling or use CC lights in their system. If you are using a 12V h2o pump then yes, your wattage will be higher. If you are running CCL, then yes, your wattage will be higher. But as I've mentioned so many times before, its wrong to tell people they need a huge PSU, if they don't really need anything close to what you said. And I'm pretty sure that they would agree.
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February 19, 2011 6:34:29 AM

well i'm having some system shutdown these days while playing on high end games. like in mass effect 1, i can play it on high settings @ 1366x768. suddenly i'll experience some microshuttering then my system will shut down afterwards >< . that's why i wanna change my PSU first before I do some overhauling by april. right now, i'm still using a generic PSU w/ an Inno3D GT240.

this is my current rig:
CPU: intel e6300 2.8ghz
GPU: inno3d gt240 512mb ddr5
mobo: asus p5kpl am-se
ram: 2gb ram
hd1: seagate barracuda 80gb
hd2: seagate barracuda 250gb
dvdrw: lite on 22x? (not sure lol)

@4745454b: yeah i saw that pic too. it's kinda different from what i saw on the shop's website. the colors are the same, but the position of the switches are different. i'll be doing some research first since there are rumors that FPS Epsilon 600W has 4kinds of models lol. XD

@dadiggle: so if my GPU doesn't have power connectors, does it mean that it only eats up at least 75W:6.25A of my PSU? sorry, i got confused XD

*edited

here's the FSP Epsilon which i am supposed to buy:
http://www.pcx.com.ph/index.php/fsp-epsilon-600w-80plus...

i dont know if this is the older model. ><

*edited (again :p )

ok, i found it! lol. the FPS Epsilon that is for sale on the shop here is the 2007 model.

http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/FSP%20Epsi...

it says that it has an ave.eff. of 84.97%. does it mean that this is the one that 4745454b talks about?

geez, thanks again. :D 
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a c 92 ) Power supply
February 19, 2011 7:51:21 AM

Quote:
All together, a graphics card could theoretically have a power consumption of up to 300 Watts


PCI-E slot on the motherboard
(powered by the 24-pin ATX Connector) ==========>Up to 75 Watts (6.25A) x2 with SLI and
x3 with Triple-SLI


6-pin PCI-E (PEG) Connector Up to
200 Watts (~17A) ----------------------------------------------------------->6+2-pin PCI-E (PEG) Connector Up to
200 Watts (~17A)


Interesting, but wrong again. A graphics card could theoretically have a power
consumption of up to 375 Watts, not 300. This is done by using two 8 pin PCIe plugs, each drawing 150W. This gets you to 300W, and add in the 75W that the PCIe plug delivers gets you to 375, not 300. Companies don't do this because they need to be PCI-SIG certified.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/200705221156...

Slot on mobo gives 75W. Each 6 pin plug can deliver another 75W. An 8 pin plug can do 150W. Neither can do 200W.

Ej, that page would lead me to believe its the newer 600W because they list the 80+. This would make it the model that Diggle showed, which isn't a bad unit. You newegg linked the older one, so thats what I thought you might have been buying. Can you contact them and ask for a model number? I checked the page but couldn't find the model number.
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February 19, 2011 8:01:28 AM

i just looked at the chart from the store and from 80plus.

here is the info from the store:

Ecos ID #: 447
Manufacturer: FSP
Model Number: Epsilon 80plus 600
Serial Number: NA
Type: ATX12V & EPS12V

here is the info from 80plus:

http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/FSP%20Epsi...

while looking at both sites, i noticed that the stuffs that are written on the store's site was derived from the one that 80plus is telling us. that's why i assumed that they are of the same model. lol. XD
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February 19, 2011 8:13:55 AM

ejcelis said:
i just looked at the chart from the store and from 80plus.

here is the info from the store:

Ecos ID #: 447
Manufacturer: FSP
Model Number: Epsilon 80plus 600
Serial Number: NA
Type: ATX12V & EPS12V

here is the info from 80plus:

http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/FSP%20Epsi...

while looking at both sites, i noticed that the stuffs that are written on the store's site was derived from the one that 80plus is telling us. that's why i assumed that they are of the same model. lol. XD



If you're having shutdown problems, try running OCCT.
http://www.ocbase.com/perestroika_en/index.php?Download

Verify that your temperatures are within the OK range. Your PC might shut down if the CPU is overheating. Your game would stutter if the GPU was overheating.

Safe temps for a Core 2 Duo is around 65 degrees Celsius, it automatically shuts down at around 90 degrees Celsius.

Usual safe temps for video cards ranges to something less than 80~90 degrees Celsius (GPUs seem to be able to handle higher temps). I believe it shuts down at about 120 degrees Celsius or so.

FSP is a weird manufacturer, they do make OEM models which sometimes gets repackaged onto a branded FSP model that sometimes wouldn't even appear on their website. Though, if the model number is exactly the same, it should be safe to assume that you're buying the same thing.
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February 19, 2011 8:20:47 AM

amnotanoobie said:
If you're having shutdown problems, try running OCCT.
http://www.ocbase.com/perestroika_en/index.php?Download

Verify that your temperatures are within the OK range. Your PC might shut down if the CPU is overheating. Your game would stutter if the GPU was overheating.

Safe temps for a Core 2 Duo is around 65 degrees Celsius, it automatically shuts down at around 90 degrees Celsius.

Usual safe temps for video cards ranges to something less than 80~90 degrees Celsius (GPUs seem to be able to handle higher temps). I believe it shuts down at about 120 degrees Celsius or so.

FSP is a weird manufacturer, they do make OEM models which sometimes gets repackaged onto a branded FSP model that sometimes wouldn't even appear on their website. Though, if the model number is exactly the same, it should be safe to assume that you're buying the same thing.


yes it was just a month ago when i replaced the thermalpaste on my CPU and GPU. but i've been experiencing several shutdowns before replacing em. not just an ordinary shut down, but pressing the reset button doesnt work. what i do is that i press the reset button and then shut down my computer one i hear the beeping sound. lol. XD

thanks for the link btw ;) 
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February 19, 2011 9:22:10 AM

Just bought my new PC from www.buildyourbox.co.uk came with a GTX 460 1GB and is much better than a GTS 250 512MB which i had in my last PC
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a c 92 ) Power supply
February 19, 2011 9:24:55 AM

Quote:
while looking at both sites, i noticed that the stuffs that are written on the store's site was derived from the one that 80plus is telling us. that's why i assumed that they are of the same model. lol. XD


Which is very possible, but its a different model then what you linked to earlier. The first PSU from FSP you linked isn't that good as the rails go out of spec once you start to draw a lot of power from it. The 85% efficient model however does good, so if you can buy that one then do so.
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February 19, 2011 10:33:28 AM

4745454b said:
Quote:
while looking at both sites, i noticed that the stuffs that are written on the store's site was derived from the one that 80plus is telling us. that's why i assumed that they are of the same model. lol. XD


Which is very possible, but its a different model then what you linked to earlier. The first PSU from FSP you linked isn't that good as the rails go out of spec once you start to draw a lot of power from it. The 85% efficient model however does good, so if you can buy that one then do so.


you mean the link i gave you from newegg? yeah, i think that's the wrong one. sorry bout that man. still i would try to call them. ;) 

@bob: of course GTX 460 was waaay better. lol. but my budget won't reach it's price D':

@dadiggle: i think i made both of you confused from the previous links i posted. sorry man. :(  i never knew that FSP Epsilon has several models. i'm really sorry for the confusion.

thanks for your help man, i've learned a lot. i'll be reading more on the articles you guys posted.
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