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When will we have real DX11?

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 12:00:28 AM

It seems MT (multi threading) wont be used til DX9 is truly history
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,775465/Capcom-Next-g...

More about : real dx11

a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:41:19 AM

Yes. But it is also interesting that CapCom doesn't seem to be aiming its future development at the pc market because pcs "don't have set use." If the game companies stop developing pc-based (DX10-11) games, then what will happen to Intel's, AMD's, nVidia's, and motherboard mfrs' enthusiast market?
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:47:04 AM

Itll help when Intels DX11 solution comes on board with their SoCs also, whenever thatll be
Seems to me, if they do this, itll hurry the ramp up on it
I know its only IGP, but it still will help, long term

It wasnt long ago, nVidia was hinting DX11 as being less than of primary importance.

Its the consoles, once they arrive (in DX11 abilities), thingsll change
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:51:39 AM

Quote:
Since LP2 uses many technologically advanced features such as complicated backgrounds and 4 player coop mode
Wut?
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a c 235 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 2:01:32 AM

this is old news, PC gaming has been co-dependent on console gaming for years. It sucks but that the way it is currently.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 2:14:35 AM

Yea, but this is getting to the future, MT, which now is stunting even this.
Its why I want to see XP die, consoles to finally make something new, and quit squeezing out every last drop of DX9

Just posting this, if some are expecting this, it wont be here for awhile, maybe a few exclusives later next year
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a c 235 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 2:19:57 AM

sony and MS want to squeeze as much life out of the PS3 and Xbox360. i don't expect anything special in game graphics until 2012-2013 when new consoles come out. We should have DX12 by then....
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 2:21:56 AM

I do hear gen2 DX11 games for next year, with (hopefully) this implemented well
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a c 189 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 3:31:54 AM

Quote:

Main reason of piracy is high cost of games in country like India,Pak,Iraq,Iran,South America,Africa and many sub continental and middle east countries.People simly cannot afford games here.


yeah, very high cost of games...
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October 1, 2010 9:01:52 AM

DX11 true games will come only after 2012-2013 when the new generation consoles should be released (if not even later).

I hate it too but thats the reality, until then its only sand in the eyes
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a c 272 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 9:18:06 AM

In the meantime we might get all those DX10 an 10.1 games that Nvidia was blocking. :whistle: 
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 10:09:11 AM

It seems MT (multi threading) wont be used til WindowsXP is truly history said:
It seems MT (multi threading) wont be used til WindowsXP is truly history


fixed it for ya.

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a c 272 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 10:10:24 AM

Quote:
Really mousemonkey never knew that.

Sorry mate I'm just making a reference to an argument that started some four and a bit years ago when Nvidia were being accused by the ATi fanbase of holding back the development of DX10.1 games because their cards only did DX10 whereas the "late to the party" HD2xxx series cards were capable of DX10.1 and as such it had nothing to do with games all being console ports but everything to do with the evil green giant.
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a c 272 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 10:24:55 AM

Quote:
Yeah nvidia has always used such lame tactic to crush Ati.All these ideas went out of the window with Ati 5xxx series.

I've yet to see any concrete evidence that Nvidia ever used such a tactic though, so if you've got some then please share.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:36:27 PM

Quote:


Main reason of piracy is high cost of games in country like India,Pak,Iraq,Iran,South America,Africa and many sub continental and middle east countries.People simply cannot afford games here.

What are you saying? PC games in India, newly launched, cost approximately half of what they sell for in the US.COD MW2 launched at 60$ in US while in India it was launched at 1299 INR or a little less than 30 $.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:40:38 PM

For the main question in this thread, I would ask, When will we see real DX 10?Wasn't it supposed to be revolutionary.It might have added HW acceleration in some applications, but I yet to see a DX 10/11 game and say wow.It is unlikely to happen as long as stupid Microsoft representatives say that FPSes are not for PCs.
Unless Microsoft seriously looks into PC gaming, Real DX 11 is not going to happen.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:45:18 PM

Sorry mate I'm just making a reference to an argument that started some four and a bit years ago when Nvidia were being accused by the ATi fanbase of holding back the development of DX10.1 games because their cards only did DX10 whereas the "late to the party"[b said:
HD2xxx series cards were capable of DX10.1 and as such it had nothing to do with games all being console ports but everything to do with the evil green giant.]Sorry mate I'm just making a reference to an argument that started some four and a bit years ago when Nvidia were being accused by the ATi fanbase of holding back the development of DX10.1 games because their cards only did DX10 whereas the "late to the party" HD2xxx series cards were capable of DX10.1 and as such it had nothing to do with games all being console ports but everything to do with the evil green giant.
[/b]

if i remember correctly, the hd2xxx never did support dx10.1. dx10.1 support came into fruition with the 3800s.

whats amazing though is to how much amd/ati wasted in terms of development and resources, with their tessellation unit with the 3800/4800.

ati dimwits kept on stressing on how good their 3850 will be once DX11 comes out because of its tessellation unit

i'd be more than happy to slap their 3850s on their faces right now.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:46:23 PM

Quote:
You are from india.Yes you are right in that sense.But even 1299 is way to much for an average Indian.Games are generally played by students or college goers.Spending 1299 for a game means zero pocket money for whole month.

But that is the feeling people in India have in general.What they don't realize that a good game is just as hard to make like any good software.They should be paying for what they want to play, otherwise it undermines the hard work of hundreds of people..It is for them to decide what they want had how to spend on it.
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a c 272 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 1:52:10 PM

wh3resmycar said:
if i remember correctly, the hd2xxx never did support dx10.1. dx10.1 support came into fruition with the 3800s.

whats amazing though is to how much amd/ati wasted in terms of development and resources, with their tessellation unit with the 3800/4800.

ati dimwits kept on stressing on how good their 3850 will be once DX11 comes out because of its tessellation unit

i'd be more than happy to slap their 3850s on their faces right now.

Diamond reckon their 2900XT has DX10.1
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October 1, 2010 3:30:58 PM

Civ 5 has real DX11, and BF3 is being written for DX11
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 4:05:48 PM

Tamz_msc said:
But that is the feeling people in India have in general.What they don't realize that a good game is just as hard to make like any good software.They should be paying for what they want to play, otherwise it undermines the hard work of hundreds of people..It is for them to decide what they want had how to spend on it.


How much does an average game cost in the US? Mostly around $30-$40, right?

But if you do conversions you would find that games here cost something around $40-$60. So there is a distinct difference in pricing. I admit that games are hard to make but that doesn't mean it should be compensated for by keeping high prices on a part of the world and cheaper on the other. That extra cost i guess comes from the import costs. But as long as they come down to the same price at all levels, you would not notice any difference in piracy (although piracy is not the main topic of discussion here, but brought it up because Piracy is rampant in Asia).

Although i must say, game prices have come down a lot now in India as well and can be bough one in every three months out of some students pocket money! Previously when i was a kid, it was one per year and your parents wont allow the next one! :na: 
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 4:15:24 PM

Mousemonkey said:
If you click on the link in my post you will see that the card was being advertised as supporting DX10.1, are you saying they lied? :ouch: 


well from your link the detailed specs mentions dx10.1

but the product features states:

Optimized for Windows Vista with comprehensive DirectX®10 and DirectX® 9 support' said:
Optimized for Windows Vista with comprehensive DirectX®10 and DirectX® 9 support'



they may have lied. i didn't know AIBs are actually capable of "injecting" dx support inside a card. hence, they could've add dx10 with the old x1950xtx.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 4:19:29 PM

hell_storm2004 said:
How much does an average game cost in the US? Mostly around $30-$40, right?

But if you do conversions you would find that games here cost something around $40-$60. So there is a distinct difference in pricing. I admit that games are hard to make but that doesn't mean it should be compensated for by keeping high prices on a part of the world and cheaper on the other. That extra cost i guess comes from the import costs. But as long as they come down to the same price at all levels, you would not notice any difference in piracy (although piracy is not the main topic of discussion here, but brought it up because Piracy is rampant in Asia).

Although i must say, game prices have come down a lot now in India as well and can be bough one in every three months out of some students pocket money! Previously when i was a kid, it was one per year and your parents wont allow the next one! :na: 

Well EA charges RS 999 for the games it releases.Only the console games sell for much higher like 3000 rupees or higher.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 4:47:17 PM

Depends... FIFA and other franchise games are around 1299 INr as dipankar2007 mentioned. The Dragon Age Collectors edition is 3700 INR.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 4:52:11 PM

hell_storm2004 said:
Depends... FIFA and other franchise games are around 1299 INr as dipankar2007 mentioned. The Dragon Age Collectors edition is 3700 INR.

Special editions ARE going to cost MORE
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a c 272 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 5:06:24 PM

wh3resmycar said:
i didn't know AIBs are actually capable of "injecting" dx support inside a card. hence, they could've add dx10 with the old x1950xtx.

Nah, they just lied! :lol:  There were a few early articles before the launch that speculated on the DX10.1 capability but IIRC they did only speculate, it was one or two AIB's actually listing the cards as DX10.1 and that then being posted as fact by a couple of the fanatics that were around at the time that really got the whole argument rolling. One thing that I have always found funny though is that the Xbox was "supposed" to have had a DX10 capable GPU for some time now and yet we still get DX9 ports which would suggest to me that XP has always been the lowest common denominator and thus the deciding factor, not Nvidia or ATi or even the consoles.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 7:35:42 PM

Obviously, Hollywood charges more than Dollywood

Every tech advancement thats held back hurts.
No matter who, and that includes other things as well, like exclusivety.
If BD was done only is but one example, I can come up witj others, but the pricing on BDs still are fairly high, time to recoup all that investment.
Some companies dont even go that far, and want it all to themselves
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 8:51:44 PM

JayDee, welcome back. Was wondering when a thread like this would pop up...

[For the record, your link is blocked here at work, so I'll go with a more generaized synopsis for now, based on some of the posts I'm seeing]

1: Beside the fact that ONLY the 360 even has a DirectX API (negating the whole "Consoles are keeping back PC's" argument), almost all games on consoles use the consoles native low-level graphic API's for performance reasons. So lets not blame the 360 for devs sticking with DX9.0c, since the DX API in the 360 is rarley even used.

2: Multi-threading in games is already well under way (Dragon Age, BF:BC2, Civ V, etc all make use of my QX9650, and those are just the random games i decided to actually check), and even older games make use of multiple threads, even if on a single CPU.

Threading is easy to do in windows (I wrote a program a decade ago, on Windows 98 with a Pentium 4 (1.6GHz) that had 40 threads going at one time; its not hard), but doing so across multiple CPU/cores is not, due to various memory concerns (not to mention you instantly bring Syncronization into the picture, which itself is a significant performance bottleneck).

Putting non-independent threads on seperate CPU's will do nothing but cost performance (syncronization, increased chance of one core being bottleneck); people these days seem more concerned with seeing their CPU's maxed out, without even wondering if they would actually gain performance in doing so.

3: As I argued with you at length over most of the past year: XP is NOT going away anytime soon, because most general PC users don't see a significant new feature to justify an upgrade. Thats not even mentioning all the Pentium 4 based systems still in the wild. And at the end of the day, when making a game, a 50% market share of XP kinda makes it hard to justify a DX10+ only code path in games. DX11 is even harder, given how many users still have either a NVIDIA 8000, 9000, 200, ATI 3000, or 4000 series GPU.

Quote:
Currently tesslation is killing performance in game.And the most likely explaination for that it is poorly implemented.


Because across an entire field of play, its a more costly process? I believed from the very beginning that (Especially ATI) needed a much more powerful Tesselation engine then they brought to the table to be able to actually perform tesselation acorss an entire scenery without a significant performance degregation.

Maybe in a generation or two we'll have a powerful enough Tesselation engine; I'd just rather focus on Ray Tracing at this point...Rasterization, as far as graphical improvement is concerned, is basically at peak performance. Most of the improvements in the DX API since DX9.0a have been performance related for that very reason. Until we get full Ray-Tracing, I don't expect graphics to get significantly better, hence why I favor focusing more on gameplay (Physics engines, etc).
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a c 106 U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 9:38:36 PM

The Microsoft Dev kits really are encouraging Multithreading, mostly to maximize the life of the 360. Of course porting it over to DX11 easily is also part of there strategy. Even so, multi-platform PC games will always be designed first with the constraints of consoles in mind and simply have more advanced PC features tacked on.
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October 1, 2010 10:41:25 PM

Once XP and the current console generation is dead we may finally see games with native DX10 / DX11 engines. Until then, DX9 with a few DX11 effects slapped on as usual.
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a b U Graphics card
October 1, 2010 10:46:47 PM

First, theres no driver support thru the DX11
Second, where it counts, gamers being advanced in most things HW, are using 35% on steam when it comes to XP
Lastly, the breakaway (non DX9 games) are coming, but both nVidia and AMD currently arent supporting MT thru their respective drivers
Each level is capacle of this, yet its not being done yet on the driver scale
Yes, there are MT games today, even at the driver level, but evidentally not enough to merit seperate drivers for this

"Multiple threads submit state and draw calls to their Deferred Context which complies a display list that is eventually executed by the Immediate Context. Games will still need a render thread, and this thread will use the Immediate Context to execute state and draw calls and to consume the display lists generated by Deferred Contexts. In this way, the ultimate destination of all state and draw calls is the Immediate Context, but fine grained synchronization is handled by the API and the display driver so that parallel threads can be better used to contribute to the rendering process. Some limitations on Deferred Contexts include the fact that they cannot query the device and they can't download or read back anything from the GPU. Deferred Contexts can, however, consume the display lists generated by other Deferred Contexts."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2716/4

Considering the current GPU drivers (Nvidia, AMD) don't support deferred contexts, we have had to give up on the idea of multithreading.
http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,775465/Capcom-Next-g...

So, the slow reception of all this is making the major players (devs,ATI,nVidia) put a halt to what can be currently done, even XP or not. DX9 or not

"I can't see PC gaming ever fading out completely - we need to remind ourselves the fact vinyl records are still in production to-day. How active it will remain, we don't know. Not many people a few years ago would have guessed that consoles would grow to have such long life span, after all. So it is possible, that in the future, PCs will once again be in the spotlight as the primary gaming platform not only from visual advantages it holds but pricing, convenience and other elements. Having said that, it could well go the other way and like you say, and fade out eventually to a lesser presence. "

and lastly..
"Us game developers provide games and our aim is not to promote the
DirectX 11 Tech Demo and Benchmark in the Lost Planet 2 Demo for PC (8) [Source: view picture gallery] distribution of hardware. I believe in the future, be it 5 or 10years, that we will be able to provide our products in many more different ways than we can this moment. What we must be prepared for therefore, is to have ourselves familiarised with the latest devices so we are not caught off guard. Simply put, the fate of a platform is not so important for us.

The core quality of a product does not depend on the packaging, so to say.
That's how Capcom think."

So, its coming, but the muting down effect is getting stronger than ever, until the dam bursts
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a b U Graphics card
October 2, 2010 5:06:22 AM

the promise of dx10/11 was to offer better visuals with better performance. i didn't see that happening.

the only game that made it was far cry 2 where the benchmark offered higher fps readings under dx10 vs dx9, regardless of hardware (ati or nvidia), but actual game play states otherwise.

my take on tessellation, it's a nice extra but a game can live without it. unless it actually improves collision/surface detection.
but i'd still take a tessellation-less game with a solid story and a solid gameplay.
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a c 235 U Graphics card
October 2, 2010 2:33:55 PM

Quote:
You are from india.Yes you are right in that sense.But even 1299 is way to much for an average Indian.Games are generally played by students or college goers.Spending 1299 for a game means zero pocket money for whole month.


I did not realize student's in other countries get paid to go to school? piracy is crap for what ever the reason :pfff: 
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a b U Graphics card
October 2, 2010 2:42:06 PM

Stealing is stealing. Change the name, add lil ol po me cants affords it, whatever, its still stealing in the end
Those who spend alot of their money for their hobby, this is to be admired, and pirating shunned even more so
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