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Poor quality photos: why?

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January 17, 2005 4:37:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
a good resolution???
No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.

Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
transmit via Morse code..... :( 

More about : poor quality photos

January 17, 2005 8:51:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Harvey wrote:
> "Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
> news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> > Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth
of
> > 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
> > They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
> > Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality
and
> > a good resolution???
> > No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small
duplicated
> > useless images
(http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
> > Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
> > were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
> >
> > Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they
could
> > transmit via Morse code..... :( 
>
> Cassini was launched before JPEG2000 was invented. Do you have that
little
> regard for the NASA engineers that you think they have no knowledge
of
> photographic techniques? There are power, bandwidth, distance,
reliability,
> and enviromental limits that govern image transmission.

NASA engineer? I'm thinking the engineers were/are not working for
NASA. Am I wrong? I'm thinking the engineers are European. Right?
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 12:48:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Are you somehow forgetting that the equipment was built something like ten
(10) years ago ... and the Cassini mission was launched roughly eight (8)
years ago?






"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
> 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
> They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
> Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
> a good resolution???
> No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
> useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
> Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
> were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>
> Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
> transmit via Morse code..... :( 
Related resources
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 12:48:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"RSD99" <rsdwla.NOSPAM@gte.net> wrote in message
news:o oWGd.11219$c%6.4968@trnddc03...
> Are you somehow forgetting that the equipment was built something like ten
> (10) years ago ... and the Cassini mission was launched roughly eight (8)
> years ago?

Add to that the needed reliability. One does not send the package into
space unless one is sure that it will work (more redundancy - less
features). There's always a budget limit and a payload limit.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:08:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:48:30 +0000, RSD99 wrote:

> Are you somehow forgetting that the equipment was built something like ten
> (10) years ago ... and the Cassini mission was launched roughly eight (8)
> years ago?


The photos are an extra. The probe is an ATMOSPHERIC PROBE. That was it's
main job, not images. The photos are just extra icing on the cake.
Some people are never happy....
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:12:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:55:19 -0500, Charles Schuler wrote:
>
> "RSD99" <rsdwla.NOSPAM@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:o oWGd.11219$c%6.4968@trnddc03...
>> Are you somehow forgetting that the equipment was built something like ten
>> (10) years ago ... and the Cassini mission was launched roughly eight (8)
>> years ago?
>
> Add to that the needed reliability. One does not send the package into
> space unless one is sure that it will work (more redundancy - less
> features). There's always a budget limit and a payload limit.

I'm all for sending the OP up there to swap out the camera.
January 18, 2005 3:38:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In fact Mark is wrong 90min=5400sec. Then they could get a hundred 54Kb
color images. It's quite ridiculous we have only those b/w ones.
In regard of JPEG2000 format, NASA is able to reprogram software of
probes. They already did it teaching the Voyager probe to use the JPG
format, even if when it was launched the jpeg didn't exist.


Hugh Jorgan wrote:
> 90min = 540 sec? What universe are you in?
>
> "Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
> news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> > Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth
of
> > 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
> > They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
> > Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality
and
> > a good resolution???
> > No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small
duplicated
> > useless images
(http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
> > Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
> > were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
> >
> > Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they
could
> > transmit via Morse code..... :( 
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 4:43:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
> 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
> They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
> Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
> a good resolution???
> No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
> useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
> Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
> were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>
> Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
> transmit via Morse code..... :( 

Cassini was launched before JPEG2000 was invented. Do you have that little
regard for the NASA engineers that you think they have no knowledge of
photographic techniques? There are power, bandwidth, distance, reliability,
and enviromental limits that govern image transmission.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 5:01:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Martin wrote:
> Harvey wrote:
>
>>"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
>>news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth
>
> of
>
>>>1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
>>>They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
>>>Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality
>
> and
>
>>>a good resolution???
>>>No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small
>
> duplicated
>
>>>useless images
>
> (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
>
>>>Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
>>>were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>>>
>>>Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they
>
> could
>
>>>transmit via Morse code..... :( 
>>
>>Cassini was launched before JPEG2000 was invented. Do you have that
>
> little
>
>>regard for the NASA engineers that you think they have no knowledge
>
> of
>
>>photographic techniques? There are power, bandwidth, distance,
>
> reliability,
>
>>and enviromental limits that govern image transmission.
>
>
> NASA engineer? I'm thinking the engineers were/are not working for
> NASA. Am I wrong? I'm thinking the engineers are European. Right?
>
Yes, the ESA did build Huygens, but I suspect a lot of collaboration
with NASA took place. There are some fine engineers in Europe.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 8:21:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 18 Jan 2005 00:38:03 -0800, in rec.photo.digital "Phil"
<phil@mailinator.com> wrote:

>In fact Mark is wrong 90min=5400sec. Then they could get a hundred 54Kb
>color images. It's quite ridiculous we have only those b/w ones.
>In regard of JPEG2000 format, NASA is able to reprogram software of
>probes. They already did it teaching the Voyager probe to use the JPG
>format, even if when it was launched the jpeg didn't exist.

Just as you are wrong to expect that even a major portion of the total
bandwidth is allocated to the transmission of the images. See the middle of
http://home.cwru.edu/~sjr16/advanced/21st_outer.html
for a listing of it's main instruments.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 9:05:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

90min = 540 sec? What universe are you in?

"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
> 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
> They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
> Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
> a good resolution???
> No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
> useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
> Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
> were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>
> Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
> transmit via Morse code..... :( 
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 2:27:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Sounds good ... Tooooooo Meeeeee!



"Allodoxaphobia" <bit-bucket@config.com> wrote in message
news:slrncuol48.2gqo.bit-bucket@shell.config.com...
> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:55:19 -0500, Charles Schuler wrote:
> >
> > "RSD99" <rsdwla.NOSPAM@gte.net> wrote in message
> > news:o oWGd.11219$c%6.4968@trnddc03...
> >> Are you somehow forgetting that the equipment was built something like
ten
> >> (10) years ago ... and the Cassini mission was launched roughly eight
(8)
> >> years ago?
> >
> > Add to that the needed reliability. One does not send the package into
> > space unless one is sure that it will work (more redundancy - less
> > features). There's always a budget limit and a payload limit.
>
> I'm all for sending the OP up there to swap out the camera.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 2:48:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of

Consider this: I consider that you are nothing but a troll
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:20:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:43:54 GMT, "Harvey"
<hcohenREMOVE@frontiernetTHIS.net> wrote:

>
>"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
>news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
>> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
>> 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
>> They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
>> Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
>> a good resolution???
>> No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
>> useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
>> Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
>> were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>>
>> Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
>> transmit via Morse code..... :( 
>
>Cassini was launched before JPEG2000 was invented. Do you have that little
>regard for the NASA engineers that you think they have no knowledge of
>photographic techniques? There are power, bandwidth, distance, reliability,
>and enviromental limits that govern image transmission.

Not sure what NASA has to do with it, but the concept of firmware
updates has been around for 30 years.

So, this isn't a good excuse.

Of course, a firmware update that can convert a BW camera into a Color
one would take some engineering, but they should have *known*
something better was coming - it always does.

--
Owamanga!
January 18, 2005 3:20:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <utvpu09ahp6dbjvf9ssn8mb87c1ulh23mk@4ax.com>, nomail@hotmail.com
says...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:43:54 GMT, "Harvey"
> <hcohenREMOVE@frontiernetTHIS.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
> >news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> >> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
> >> 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
> >> They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
> >> Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
> >> a good resolution???
> >> No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
> >> useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
> >> Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
> >> were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
> >>
> >> Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
> >> transmit via Morse code..... :( 
> >
> >Cassini was launched before JPEG2000 was invented. Do you have that little
> >regard for the NASA engineers that you think they have no knowledge of
> >photographic techniques? There are power, bandwidth, distance, reliability,
> >and enviromental limits that govern image transmission.
>
> Not sure what NASA has to do with it, but the concept of firmware
> updates has been around for 30 years.
>
> So, this isn't a good excuse.
>
> Of course, a firmware update that can convert a BW camera into a Color
> one would take some engineering, but they should have *known*
> something better was coming - it always does.
>
> --
> Owamanga!
>

Anyone who isnt aware of what a miraculous tast it is to get ANY photos back
from Titan is probably only barely sentient anyway, and needs get out of the
gene pool (he is DEFINATELY wading in the shallow end, dont you think?).


--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 7:37:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
> 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
> They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
> Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
> a good resolution???
> No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
> useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
> Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
> were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>
> Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
> transmit via Morse code..... :( 

And what about the colour image (possibly images, but I've only seen
reference to 1 so far) taken on the surface showing orange skies?

Dan
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 7:37:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Spack wrote:
> "Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
> news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
>
>>Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
>>1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
>>They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
>>Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
>>a good resolution???
>>No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
>>useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
>>Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
>>were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>>
>>Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
>>transmit via Morse code..... :( 
>
>
> And what about the colour image (possibly images, but I've only seen
> reference to 1 so far) taken on the surface showing orange skies?
>
> Dan
>
>
Light reflected from Saturn is the primary source of illumination for
Titan, and Saturn appears orange...


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 10:18:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Owamanga wrote:
[]
> Not sure what NASA has to do with it, but the concept of firmware
> updates has been around for 30 years.
>
> So, this isn't a good excuse.
>
> Of course, a firmware update that can convert a BW camera into a Color
> one would take some engineering, but they should have *known*
> something better was coming - it always does.

... and indeed, Cassini /was/ reprogrammed during its voyage, to correct an
error due to a doppler shift (in data frequency, not RF carrier frequency)
which had not been allowed for.....

David
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 10:59:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Ron Hunter wrote:

> Spack wrote:
>
>> "Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
>> news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
>>
>>> Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
>>> 1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
>>> They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
>>> Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
>>> a good resolution???
>>> No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
>>> useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
>>> Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
>>> were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>>>
>>> Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
>>> transmit via Morse code..... :( 
>>
>>
>>
>> And what about the colour image (possibly images, but I've only seen
>> reference to 1 so far) taken on the surface showing orange skies?
>>
>> Dan
>>
> Light reflected from Saturn is the primary source of illumination for
> Titan, and Saturn appears orange...

No, this is not correct. The primary light source is the Sun.
Titan is tidally locked so the same side faces Saturn all the
time, just like our moon. Saturn shine is a tiny fraction
of the incident light on Titan. See the Iapetus Saturn shine
images, for comparison; Iapetus is a little further out, but
it gives you an idea. The Iapetus Saturn shine images are on
the JPL web site.

The imager was black and white only. The color image is the average
color derived from spectra. The orange color is thought to be
from all the complex hydrocarbons in the atmosphere.

Roger
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 3:14:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message
news:mJfHd.8519$Bg6.7266@fe07.lga...
> Spack wrote:
>> "Mark" <francesca.x@libero.it> wrote in message
>> news:3025da5c.0501171337.6edde263@posting.google.com...
>>
>>>Consider this: 1 hour and half on the surface of Titan, a bandwidth of
>>>1 Kbyte/sec (8kbit/sec), so 90 mins=540 secs= 540 Kbytes
>>>They could have taken ten images with a size of 54kbytes.
>>>Do you know that a COLOR JPEG2000 image has a really good quality and
>>>a good resolution???
>>>No, they seem not to know it, they took 300 ugly b/w small duplicated
>>>useless images (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/titanraw/index.htm).
>>>Here's how to drop people money. It seems that 1960's transmissions
>>>were alot better than those of a 1997 probe.
>>>
>>>Next time they could use images made with color LEDs, and they could
>>>transmit via Morse code..... :( 
>>
>>
>> And what about the colour image (possibly images, but I've only seen
>> reference to 1 so far) taken on the surface showing orange skies?
>>
>> Dan
> Light reflected from Saturn is the primary source of illumination for
> Titan, and Saturn appears orange...

I was responding to the OP asking why they didn't take colour pictures.

Dan
!