Mac vs. pc for photo work

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Best,
Howie
95 answers Last reply
More about photo work
  1. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    "Howard" <wettstein@earthlink.net> wrote:

    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie

    Go to an Apple store and play with a desktop Mac to see if it's right
    for you. Recently MS has been catching up in their GUI while Apple has
    been catching up in their bug count.

    The dual proc G5 desktops are elegant marvels of engineering but their
    age is showing and their prices are still high. They're probably not a
    good buy unless they have a specific feature that you need - low noise,
    Unix OS, digital A/V, etc.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    "Howard" <wettstein@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie

    I work with XP and OSX machines every day and if it was my money I would
    fo with a PC. PCs are faster, cheaper and easy to upgrade.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Howard wrote:
    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie


    OSX is easier to use but for photo editing, there isn't any advantage as
    long as you use good software, such as photoshop. I have a powerbook but
    I hardly think of using it at home. I do everything on my WinXP PC. If I
    had the money, I'd upgrade my current Athlon XP desktop to Athlon64 and
    would cost less than a Mac mini. If you're thinking of the Mac mini, be
    forwarned that it's based on ibook, i.e. very slow with no memory cache,
    and need to increase the memory to at least 5120MB. It has no keyboard
    and mouse. If you want an exotic OS, go for it but it's going to be very
    slow. You get what you pay for. As for iMac, I don't see why I want to
    have an expensive LCD built into a CPU that I certainly want to upgrade
    the speed every two years.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Culd you say a bit more about the G5's.How are they showing their age? Is
    there stuff in the PC world that improves on those age-deficiencies?
    Thanks again.
    Howie


    "Kevin McMurtrie" <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
    news:mcmurtri-072C4F.23045920012005@corp-radius.supernews.com...
    > In article <3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    > "Howard" <wettstein@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >
    >> I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    >> Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    >> the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >> Best,
    >> Howie
    >
    > Go to an Apple store and play with a desktop Mac to see if it's right
    > for you. Recently MS has been catching up in their GUI while Apple has
    > been catching up in their bug count.
    >
    > The dual proc G5 desktops are elegant marvels of engineering but their
    > age is showing and their prices are still high. They're probably not a
    > good buy unless they have a specific feature that you need - low noise,
    > Unix OS, digital A/V, etc.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    "Howard" <wettstein@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie
    >

    Hi,
    I prefer PC, cheaper, more versatile, personal preference tho, Mac OsX takes
    QUITE some getting used to!
    lots of the Bureau staff in our office have a Mac and PC each, and seem to
    prefer the PCs too (we do scans, printing, bureau and repro)
    The choice is yours, it seems to be more about personal preference than one
    system being better than another :-)
    Steven
  6. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Hi Chuck,
    Interesting that you mentioned philosophy, my field. Thanks for the
    good advice and information. I'm intrigued by the Mac, and annoyed by
    various glitches and complications in the PC world, which I have always
    been in. I'm thinking about a G5 with a big screen. Anyway, if you have
    further thoughts, please pass them along. One thing: could you say a
    word about how OSX helps with organizing photos and the like. Also,
    networking, if you know about that. I'm having all sorts of headaches
    with Windows networking.
    Howie
  7. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Howard wrote:
    > Could you say a bit more about the G5's. How are they showing their
    age? Is
    > there stuff in the PC world that improves on those age-deficiencies?

    The G5 is hardly "showing its age", unless you're the geektype who buys
    the latest hardware every 4 months. If that's the case, then the
    answer to your question is that your current hardware's good enough for
    what you need, regardless of its CPU or OS or anything else :-)

    Now I will grant you that Apple's G4 CPU did deserve its "long in
    tooth" criticism. Which is why an Apple laptop or mini isn't the best
    choice for doing Photoshop production on.

    The most important change in the G5 wasn't really its higher-than-G4
    clockspeeds, but instead was the system architectural changes that
    accompanied the chip. These changes did more than merely eliminated
    the huge bandwidth bottlenecks that the G4 suffered from: it blew the
    doors off of bandwidth availability, which allows for future growth.
    If the G5 is "showing its age", then this factor is the deathknell for
    *all* Intel CPU's.


    If you want a lightweight dose of geek stuff (with some topping from
    Apple's marketing department) see:
    http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html

    The KISS take-away is that if the G4's bandwidth was a dirt road, the
    Pentium was at best a two-lane highway, whereas the G5 is a 4-lane
    German Autobahn.


    IMO, I think the real underlying comment here was a hit on its price.
    Apple has traditionally been criticized for being more expensive.
    Yeah, BMW's cost more too, and that's what a smaller production base
    will always do to a product.

    There's going to be difference in design ...both hardware and OS...that
    vary in their significance, depending on the person examining them, and
    there will inevitably be differences in the price tag too. The final
    cost:benefit decision is always up to you.

    Personally, I appreciate the G5's nearly silent operation, as well as
    the OS is effectively immune from all of the windows OS malware.

    My suggestion for an Apple machine to consider would be the DP 1.8GHz
    G5 PowerMac. It lists for $1999 but needs another ~$170 to bump up the
    RAM by +1GB. Do check to see if you can qualify for one of the
    discount groups (EDU/etc), as this will cut around $150 off the price.
    This system (with 1GB of RAM) should slice thru most Photoshop tasks
    quite respectfully, and I'd not expect to have to touch the machine for
    any upgrades for at least 3 years. I've used the Single Processor
    version of this machine and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I
    did throw a 1GB photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did
    cause it to pause and chew, it did swallow.

    -hh
  8. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    On 21 Jan 2005 10:21:36 -0800, "Howard" <Howard.Wettstein@ucr.edu>
    wrote:

    >Hi Chuck,
    >Interesting that you mentioned philosophy, my field. Thanks for the
    >good advice and information. I'm intrigued by the Mac, and annoyed by
    >various glitches and complications in the PC world, which I have always
    >been in. I'm thinking about a G5 with a big screen. Anyway, if you have
    >further thoughts, please pass them along. One thing: could you say a
    >word about how OSX helps with organizing photos and the like. Also,
    >networking, if you know about that. I'm having all sorts of headaches
    >with Windows networking.
    >Howie

    Take a look at some of the features in Tiger the Mac OS out later this
    year. It has some very interesting feature relative to searching
    images.

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html


    *****************************************************

    "He that we last as Thurn and Taxis knew
    Now recks no lord but the stiletto's Thorn,
    And Tacit lies the gold once-knotted horn.
    No hallowed skein of stars can ward, I trow,
    Who's once been set his tryst with Trystero."

    "The Crying of Lot 49"
    Thomas Pynchon
  9. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Howard wrote:
    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie
    >
    >
    Either will work just fine. Use whichever one you are most comfortable
    with.
  10. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Howard wrote:
    >
    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    The differences are much smaller now than at any point in the past. Mac
    has certain advantages, like being free of spyware/malware/viruses. PCs
    have certain advantages, like cheaper, faster, more options, more
    flexibility.

    My suggestion would be to go to an Apple store and play with a Mac for a
    while and see if you like it. That, more than anything, should be the
    basis for your decision.

    Lisa
  11. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    The G5's fans are controlled by the Max OS. As such there should only
    be three times that they'll run full blast (and thus be loud):

    1) During a kernel panic. I've seen this happen once...and the loud
    fans was the "hey, what's going on?" symptom.

    2) If a different OS has been installed, such as Linix, which doesn't
    have control over the fans

    3) If the machine is sitting in a hot ambient environment.

    There is a utility within OS X that will display the CPU's temperature.
    Recommend that you have your friend check it out: if the fan noise is
    offensive with a CPU temperature below 134F, recommend he do a reboot
    and if that doesnt' immediately fix it, have him take the machine in
    for service: something's broken.

    FWIW, the "MDD" (Mirror Door Drive?) G4 was the one with the bad
    reputation for being noisy, IIRC.

    -hh
  12. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    On 1/21/05 12:37 AM, in article
    3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Howard"
    <wettstein@earthlink.net> wrote:

    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie
    >
    >
    If it is suggestions and opinions that you want, Mac vs. PC, you'll get
    plenty of them here! Here is mine:
    I use both a PC (that boots both Win XP and Linux) and a Mac dual G5. I
    prefer the Mac, not only for photography but for everyday use as well.
    Photoshop will use both processors on the G5 and it is noticeably faster at
    carrying out various filter actions. [as an fyi I owned the PC version of
    Photoshop prior to getting the Mac but Adobe sent me the full Mac version at
    no additional cost in return for a statement that I was switching platforms]
    Another opinion - the head of the photography department at our local
    college uses both PC's and Mac's as well and prefers the Macs.
    That said, if you are expecting a night and day difference, it isn't there,
    it is mostly which experience and interface you prefer. If you live near an
    Apple store, or any store the carries Macs, I would go play with one and see
    what you think.
    A couple of other comments: One person said the G5 was dated, or something
    similar. That is just plain wrong. The G5 is very fast and OS 10.3 is an
    extremely up to date OS - ahead of XP in my view. Another person said that
    if it is the Mini that is tempting you don't go that way. With that I would
    agree. As a computer for surfing the Internet and email and light duty
    document work the Mini would be great. But for heavy duty photo work you
    would be asking a lot of the Mini.
    Chuck
  13. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    C Wright <wright9_nojunk@nojunk_mac.com> wrote:
    > That said, if you are expecting a night and day difference, it isn't there,
    > it is mostly which experience and interface you prefer. If you live near an
    > Apple store, or any store the carries Macs, I would go play with one and see
    > what you think.


    ....particularly as Adobe are making their interface on the PC more and
    more Mac-like. Elements 3 is very un-Windowsy.

    > A couple of other comments: One person said the G5 was dated, or something
    > similar. That is just plain wrong. The G5 is very fast and OS 10.3 is an
    > extremely up to date OS - ahead of XP in my view. Another person said that
    > if it is the Mini that is tempting you don't go that way. With that I would
    > agree. As a computer for surfing the Internet and email and light duty
    > document work the Mini would be great. But for heavy duty photo work you
    > would be asking a lot of the Mini.

    I have a mini on order, I don't expect it to match my 2.1 GHz Athlon for
    photo editing work, but as you said that's not what it's there for -
    it's a computer designed for consuming not producing ;)

    pete
    --
    pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"
  14. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Pete Fenelon wrote:
    > C Wright <wright9_nojunk@nojunk_mac.com> wrote:
    >
    >>That said, if you are expecting a night and day difference, it isn't there,
    >>it is mostly which experience and interface you prefer. If you live near an
    >>Apple store, or any store the carries Macs, I would go play with one and see
    >>what you think.
    >
    >
    >
    > ...particularly as Adobe are making their interface on the PC more and
    > more Mac-like. Elements 3 is very un-Windowsy.
    >
    >
    >>A couple of other comments: One person said the G5 was dated, or something
    >>similar. That is just plain wrong. The G5 is very fast and OS 10.3 is an
    >>extremely up to date OS - ahead of XP in my view. Another person said that
    >>if it is the Mini that is tempting you don't go that way. With that I would
    >>agree. As a computer for surfing the Internet and email and light duty
    >>document work the Mini would be great. But for heavy duty photo work you
    >>would be asking a lot of the Mini.
    >
    >
    > I have a mini on order, I don't expect it to match my 2.1 GHz Athlon for
    > photo editing work, but as you said that's not what it's there for -
    > it's a computer designed for consuming not producing ;)
    >
    > pete

    Yes, for consuming a lot of money for not that much computer. I like
    the size, and if one already has a monitor, keyboard, and printer, and
    pointing device, it is a practical alternative. Still, one can buy a
    faster PC with monitor, speaker, printer, and mouse for about the same
    money. Of course, it will take up more space... In the end, it is a
    matter of personal needs, and preferences.
  15. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <oV1Id.1456$YD5.721@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    "Howard" <wettstein@earthlink.net> wrote:

    > Culd you say a bit more about the G5's.How are they showing their age? Is
    > there stuff in the PC world that improves on those age-deficiencies?
    > Thanks again.
    > Howie

    It's over a year old and still very expensive. At least for Java/UNIX
    software development tasks, the dual 2GHz G5 doesn't keep pace with
    upper-middle range x86 boxes. It's not even twice as fast as a dual
    1.25GHz G4, which is disappointing considering the age and price
    differences.


    >
    > "Kevin McMurtrie" <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
    > news:mcmurtri-072C4F.23045920012005@corp-radius.supernews.com...
    > > In article <3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    > > "Howard" <wettstein@earthlink.net> wrote:
    > >
    > >> I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > >> Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > >> the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > >> Best,
    > >> Howie
    > >
    > > Go to an Apple store and play with a desktop Mac to see if it's right
    > > for you. Recently MS has been catching up in their GUI while Apple has
    > > been catching up in their bug count.
    > >
    > > The dual proc G5 desktops are elegant marvels of engineering but their
    > > age is showing and their prices are still high. They're probably not a
    > > good buy unless they have a specific feature that you need - low noise,
    > > Unix OS, digital A/V, etc.
  16. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    The G5 I would only rate as nice but not quite there because the standard
    video card is absolute rubbish.

    <huntzing@pica.army.mil> wrote in message
    news:1106337854.907805.198230@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > Howard wrote:
    >> Could you say a bit more about the G5's. How are they showing their
    > age? Is
    >> there stuff in the PC world that improves on those age-deficiencies?
    >
    > The G5 is hardly "showing its age", unless you're the geektype who buys
    > the latest hardware every 4 months. If that's the case, then the
    > answer to your question is that your current hardware's good enough for
    > what you need, regardless of its CPU or OS or anything else :-)
    >
    > Now I will grant you that Apple's G4 CPU did deserve its "long in
    > tooth" criticism. Which is why an Apple laptop or mini isn't the best
    > choice for doing Photoshop production on.
    >
    > The most important change in the G5 wasn't really its higher-than-G4
    > clockspeeds, but instead was the system architectural changes that
    > accompanied the chip. These changes did more than merely eliminated
    > the huge bandwidth bottlenecks that the G4 suffered from: it blew the
    > doors off of bandwidth availability, which allows for future growth.
    > If the G5 is "showing its age", then this factor is the deathknell for
    > *all* Intel CPU's.
    >
    >
    > If you want a lightweight dose of geek stuff (with some topping from
    > Apple's marketing department) see:
    > http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html
    >
    > The KISS take-away is that if the G4's bandwidth was a dirt road, the
    > Pentium was at best a two-lane highway, whereas the G5 is a 4-lane
    > German Autobahn.
    >
    >
    > IMO, I think the real underlying comment here was a hit on its price.
    > Apple has traditionally been criticized for being more expensive.
    > Yeah, BMW's cost more too, and that's what a smaller production base
    > will always do to a product.
    >
    > There's going to be difference in design ...both hardware and OS...that
    > vary in their significance, depending on the person examining them, and
    > there will inevitably be differences in the price tag too. The final
    > cost:benefit decision is always up to you.
    >
    > Personally, I appreciate the G5's nearly silent operation, as well as
    > the OS is effectively immune from all of the windows OS malware.
    >
    > My suggestion for an Apple machine to consider would be the DP 1.8GHz
    > G5 PowerMac. It lists for $1999 but needs another ~$170 to bump up the
    > RAM by +1GB. Do check to see if you can qualify for one of the
    > discount groups (EDU/etc), as this will cut around $150 off the price.
    > This system (with 1GB of RAM) should slice thru most Photoshop tasks
    > quite respectfully, and I'd not expect to have to touch the machine for
    > any upgrades for at least 3 years. I've used the Single Processor
    > version of this machine and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I
    > did throw a 1GB photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did
    > cause it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    >
    > -hh
    >
  17. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:36:18 GMT, "Pete D" <no@email.com> wrote:


    >The G5 I would only rate as nice but not quite there because the standard
    >video card is absolute rubbish.

    I went to see a friends G5 and was shocked that it was the loudest
    computer I've ever heard.


    Frank
    http://newmex.com/f10
  18. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <pbs2v0pgd5t89srobvdt309jtcm5tfuqmp@4ax.com>,
    Frank Vuotto <deepthrob@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:36:18 GMT, "Pete D" <no@email.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > >The G5 I would only rate as nice but not quite there because the standard
    > >video card is absolute rubbish.
    >
    > I went to see a friends G5 and was shocked that it was the loudest
    > computer I've ever heard.
    >
    >
    > Frank
    > http://newmex.com/f10

    I bet the inside is lit up red too. It means that the air flow panel is
    missing. Hopefully he didn't throw it out with the packaging.
  19. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    On 1/21/05 12:21 PM, in article
    1106331696.854567.9790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "Howard"
    <Howard.Wettstein@ucr.edu> wrote:

    One thing: could you say a
    > word about how OSX helps with organizing photos and the like. Also,
    > networking, if you know about that. I'm having all sorts of headaches
    > with Windows networking.
    > Howie
    >
    If you buy a new Mac now with OSX it will include the new iPhoto program
    which looks to be a pretty good organizer. The current version is good but
    not up to pro standards. The new version will display raw's from most
    cameras, which the current version won't.
    As far as networking - I have an Apple Airport Extreme wireless network and
    it is a breeze to set up and maintain. Not only is my Mac on it but XP and
    Linux PC's as well. Macs will definitely work on other brand networks as
    well but I have limited experience beyond the Airport network. As far as I
    am concerned networking is a black art!
    Chuck
  20. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    "chris" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
    news:NB1Id.2777$rp1.272@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
    > Howard wrote:
    >> I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    >> Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    >> the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >> Best,
    >> Howie
    >
    >
    > OSX is easier to use but for photo editing, there isn't any advantage as
    > long as you use good software, such as photoshop. I have a powerbook but I
    > hardly think of using it at home. I do everything on my WinXP PC. If I had
    > the money, I'd upgrade my current Athlon XP desktop to Athlon64 and would
    > cost less than a Mac mini. If you're thinking of the Mac mini, be
    > forwarned that it's based on ibook, i.e. very slow with no memory cache,
    > and need to increase the memory to at least 5120MB. It has no keyboard and
    > mouse. If you want an exotic OS, go for it but it's going to be very slow.
    > You get what you pay for. As for iMac, I don't see why I want to have an
    > expensive LCD built into a CPU that I certainly want to upgrade the speed
    > every two years.

    I have a 3GHz PC in my study (which I am using now), and an iMac G5
    downstairs in the kitchen. I am mainly a PC user, but the Mac is great. It
    is fast and has a fantastic screen (1.8GHz 20"). It is not quite as fast as
    the PC running Photoshop, but it actually feels nicer to use. Mac OS X is
    excellent - it is a joy to use and is rock solid as well. I've only been
    using it for a month or so, but I like it more than Windows.

    On the other hand, I need a Windows machine for other things.

    Both machines work well with each other across a wireless network.

    I bought the iMac with no intention of upgrading it in 2 years time. In 2
    years time it will be obsolete and will have been passed onto one of my
    children as will this PC.
  21. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    huntzing@pica.army.mil wrote:
    > Howard wrote:
    >
    >>Could you say a bit more about the G5's. How are they showing their
    >
    > age? Is
    >
    >>there stuff in the PC world that improves on those age-deficiencies?
    >
    >
    > The G5 is hardly "showing its age", unless you're the geektype who buys
    > the latest hardware every 4 months. If that's the case, then the
    > answer to your question is that your current hardware's good enough for
    > what you need, regardless of its CPU or OS or anything else :-)
    Agreed, the G5 is every bit as good as a Xeon with 1.5x the clock speed.
    For photo work I think a critical advantage of the Mac is OSX's far better
    security and memory management. Who in his right mind will store valuable
    images on a virus-infiltrated PC?
    You could say a modern Mac combines the robustness and security of Linux with
    the traditional we-know-what-is-good-for-you attitude of Apple. For a price.
    >
    > Now I will grant you that Apple's G4 CPU did deserve its "long in
    > tooth" criticism. Which is why an Apple laptop or mini isn't the best
    > choice for doing Photoshop production on.
    For image processing work the G4's caches were often too small, yes.
    >
    > The most important change in the G5 wasn't really its higher-than-G4
    > clockspeeds, but instead was the system architectural changes that
    > accompanied the chip. These changes did more than merely eliminated
    > the huge bandwidth bottlenecks that the G4 suffered from: it blew the
    > doors off of bandwidth availability, which allows for future growth.
    > If the G5 is "showing its age", then this factor is the deathknell for
    > *all* Intel CPU's.
    The G5 was derived from the IBM Power4 processor, *definitely* not a backward
    chip! But Intel and especially AMD are not idiots either. In fact the AMD
    Opteron is IMO superior to the G5 for image processing.
    >
    >
    > The KISS take-away is that if the G4's bandwidth was a dirt road, the
    > Pentium was at best a two-lane highway, whereas the G5 is a 4-lane
    > German Autobahn.
    To carry the analogy further: a 4-lane autobahn with two lanes under
    construction, OS X 10.3 still doesn't support 64bit addressing. So much for
    'the first 64bit PC'.
    >
    > My suggestion for an Apple machine to consider would be the DP 1.8GHz
    > G5 PowerMac. It lists for $1999 but needs another ~$170 to bump up the
    > RAM by +1GB. Do check to see if you can qualify for one of the
    There is a catch: the 1.8 model has less memory slots, so is less upgradable.
    Does anyone know how efficient Photoshop makes use of a dual G5?

    -- Hans
  22. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <11dbf$41f17788$3e3aaa83$5338@news1.versatel.nl>, HvdV
    <nohanz@svi.nl> wrote:

    > > The KISS take-away is that if the G4's bandwidth was a dirt road, the
    > > Pentium was at best a two-lane highway, whereas the G5 is a 4-lane
    > > German Autobahn.
    > To carry the analogy further: a 4-lane autobahn with two lanes under
    > construction, OS X 10.3 still doesn't support 64bit addressing. So much for
    > 'the first 64bit PC'.

    osx 10.3 supports 64 bit addressing. the g5 can accept 8 gigs of ram
    and osx can see all of it and use all of it.
  23. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    C Wright wrote:
    > On 1/21/05 12:21 PM, in article
    > 1106331696.854567.9790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "Howard"
    > <Howard.Wettstein@ucr.edu> wrote:
    >
    > One thing: could you say a
    >
    >>word about how OSX helps with organizing photos and the like. Also,
    >>networking, if you know about that. I'm having all sorts of headaches
    >>with Windows networking.
    >>Howie
    >>
    >
    > If you buy a new Mac now with OSX it will include the new iPhoto program
    > which looks to be a pretty good organizer. The current version is good but
    > not up to pro standards. The new version will display raw's from most
    > cameras, which the current version won't.
    > As far as networking - I have an Apple Airport Extreme wireless network and
    > it is a breeze to set up and maintain. Not only is my Mac on it but XP and
    > Linux PC's as well. Macs will definitely work on other brand networks as
    > well but I have limited experience beyond the Airport network. As far as I
    > am concerned networking is a black art!
    > Chuck


    I don't think iPhoto is that good. It's way over-rated for no obvious
    reason. Has it been updated to categorize off-line photos? It's set up
    to easily order prints from APPLE; making their wallet puffy by merely
    sending your order to Ofoto (Kodak) to process. You can't share photos
    without the $99 .Mac account. Now the new v.5 supports RAW. Once I have
    it, I'll check out how slow it would handle 20D RAW files. ;P
  24. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Howard wrote:
    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie
    >
    >

    I'm 54 years old, and I've been a die hard PC/Windows user
    since they came out. I was also a confessed Apple/MAC hater
    for many years. I'm a senior computer engineer, and work in
    IT, for a large communications company. To even speak of
    MACs, among my peers is a death sentence. One co-worker,
    who is a closet MAC user, talked me into trying one of the
    new iMACs, when they introduced OS X. I became interested
    because I heard OS X was based on BSD (aka Unix) roots, and
    similar, but easier to use, than Linux. I was impressed
    with the OS, but I thought the system was slow. I sold it
    after about two months, and went back to PC's. With all the
    recent problems, and very serious security concerns that
    come with using Windows 2000 / XP, I started considering
    alternatives. I've had a love-hate relationship with Linux
    over the years, but finally ruled that out. I decided to
    try another MAC, now that OS X has matured, and the more
    advanced hardware became available.

    I purchased a Power MAC G5 Tower, Dual 65-bit CPU, running
    OS X Panther. I have to say, I'm hooked! This system runs
    as great as it looks! It is very fast, very quiet, very
    powerful! I also installed Microsoft's Virtual PC v 7, with
    Windows XP Professional, for those times I get insecure, and
    feel the need to go back. I'm also very impressed with it's
    performance. It is truly a usable alternative to having two
    machines. I've used similar virtual software in the past,
    like VM Ware, on a PC, running XP, to emulate Win2k, Win98,
    and Linux systems. They were all unusably slow, and no
    comparison to the G5 / Virtual PC combination!

    It is common to criticized MAC's, especially if you're not
    familiar with them. It is also politically correct in many
    tech-circles. But if you have an open mind, and can afford
    the hardware (yes, it's not cheap), then I think you should
    consider a system similar to the one I purchased. It will
    free you from the preoccupation of maintaining your
    hardware/OS, and give you more time to devote to
    photography, or anything else you do on your computer!

    Bill Crocker
  25. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    wettstein@earthlink.net says...
    >
    >I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    >Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    >the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >Best,
    >Howie
    >
    Use both, my Mac at work is very slow and 6 years old. I prefer my Athlon 2.7
    at home, even my Pentium 1gig with Win 98 BUT I'm a PC person. Remember with
    Mac OSX you need 10.3+ everything else makes any Win look smooth. Photoshop CS
    can only access 2 gigs of RAM, anything else is not worth it. If you can afford
    a dual G5 and 2 big apple screens I'd go for it. Otherwise a PC is better than
    any single processor Mac.

    Tom
  26. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:34:39 -0500, Bill Crocker
    <wcrocker007@comcast.net> wrote:


    >It is common to criticized MAC's, especially if you're not
    >familiar with them. It is also politically correct in many
    >tech-circles. But if you have an open mind, and can afford
    >the hardware (yes, it's not cheap), then I think you should
    >consider a system similar to the one I purchased. It will
    >free you from the preoccupation of maintaining your
    >hardware/OS, and give you more time to devote to
    >photography, or anything else you do on your computer!


    What's to maintain? Just exercise
    reasonable care with regard to email
    attachments, virus checking, and
    the sort of web sites you visit.
    99.9% of unsolicited email should
    go straight to the trash bin.

    Don't use Microsoft internet clients.
    Period.

    I'm not about to Mac-bash. I think
    Macs are great for those who really
    would rather *not* know what's under
    the hood. In the same vein, I admit
    that without a strong technical
    backround, there are times when my
    PC would have gotten the best of me.

    I don't really see where either system
    can be said to have a big lead in terms
    of technical merit, either in hardware
    or the OS. I do believe you get a lot
    more "bang for the buck" on PCs,
    particularly if you're savvy enough to
    configure and build your own.

    Macs benefit, of course, from being a
    closed system. It's not that they're
    "immune" to viruses, it's just that there's
    no point writing or launching a virus that
    could, at best, affect a small population.

    Another point: peripherals and drivers.
    Since Macs have minimal market share, the
    Mac driver for a given peripheral (eg.,
    printer, scanner, digicam, etc.) may not be
    as robust, well tested, or well supported as
    its PC counterpart.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  27. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Howard wrote:
    > I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    > Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    > the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    > Best,
    > Howie
    >
    >

    I'm a Mac and PC user. I have two Mac's and two PC's and often switch to
    one or the other when I'm going to process photos. The recent computer
    addition was the Sony VGC-RA826G, which is what I'm using now. It's
    water cooled and in normal operation it's as silent as silent can be.
    Much quieter than my Mac's. The only time I can hear a whir is when I'm
    copying a CD or a DVD.

    AFAIC, I don't see a difference in speed between my PC and G4 Mac (I
    don't have G5's). If one is a couple of milliseconds faster than the
    other, I couldn't care less.

    I have Photoshop in one of the Mac's and also in the Sony PC. I have
    filters in the PC that are not available for the Mac although the most
    popular major filters can be had for both systems. I have photo programs
    that are not available for the Mac installed in the Sony.

    I've been a Mac user for some 16 years and a PC user for about a year.
    When looking at my finished photos, no one can tell me which machine was
    used to process the photos and I find the PC (at least my Sony
    VGC-RA826G) to be just as good as my Mac's (might even be better).

    Once upon a time, Mac commanded 10% of the computer market. About the
    time OS X came out, Mac's commanded 7% of the computer market (not
    because of OS X), I learned yesterday, Mac's now command 3% of the
    computer market. Mac's big money maker has been the Ipods.

    When comparing the build of Mac computers to PC, Mac's have been
    top-notch. However, top line PC's (such as my VGC-RA826G) is built every
    bit as good as Mac's and it even has a diskette slot built in.

    I still use diskettes to store various correspondence which usually max
    out at about 3K per. Diskettes can hold a lot of correspondence.

    Mac people seem to be dedicated to Mac's (I know I was) but there's
    always folks like me who can break the habit. IMO, high end PC's are
    just as effective as Mac G4 or G5's. Not only is there a variety of PC's
    to chose from, you could build one yourself to meet your spec needs.
    Generally you'll find PC's are cheaper.

    If you're thinking about getting a Mac, take a couple of Aspirins, sleep
    on it for a while, then forget it.

    Ya got my opinion.

    nick
  28. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    nospam wrote:
    > In article <11dbf$41f17788$3e3aaa83$5338@news1.versatel.nl>, HvdV
    > <nohanz@svi.nl> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>To carry the analogy further: a 4-lane autobahn with two lanes under
    >>construction, OS X 10.3 still doesn't support 64bit addressing. So much for
    >>'the first 64bit PC'.
    >
    >
    > osx 10.3 supports 64 bit addressing. the g5 can accept 8 gigs of ram
    > and osx can see all of it and use all of it.
    A G5 running 10.3 can use all the 8GB, but *not* by a single process. Single
    processes are limited to about 3GB. On top of that the standard OS X 10.3
    malloc library suffers from fragmentation, not so nice either. All this is
    going to be fixed by 10.4, we hope. But this thread was Mac vs (windows) PC,
    not Mac vs. Linux64, and in Windows land memory management is worse.

    -- Hans
  29. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <96ea5$41f20bba$3e3aaa83$6580@news1.versatel.nl>,
    HvdV <nohanz@svi.nl> wrote:

    > nospam wrote:
    > > In article <11dbf$41f17788$3e3aaa83$5338@news1.versatel.nl>, HvdV
    > > <nohanz@svi.nl> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>To carry the analogy further: a 4-lane autobahn with two lanes under
    > >>construction, OS X 10.3 still doesn't support 64bit addressing. So much for
    > >>'the first 64bit PC'.
    > >
    > >
    > > osx 10.3 supports 64 bit addressing. the g5 can accept 8 gigs of ram
    > > and osx can see all of it and use all of it.
    > A G5 running 10.3 can use all the 8GB, but *not* by a single process. Single
    > processes are limited to about 3GB. On top of that the standard OS X 10.3
    > malloc library suffers from fragmentation, not so nice either. All this is
    > going to be fixed by 10.4, we hope. But this thread was Mac vs (windows) PC,
    > not Mac vs. Linux64, and in Windows land memory management is worse.
    >
    > -- Hans

    10.4.0 does not support 64 bit addressing in GUI applications. If
    Photoshop wanted to operate directly on >4GB, the application would need
    to be split into a 64 bit rendering daemon and a 32 bit GUI. Not pretty.

    Apple doesn't release product roadmaps so one can only guess when the OS
    will completely support 64 bit addressing.
  30. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    anyone4tennis@hotmail.com wrote:

    > Howard wrote:
    >> I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    >> Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    >> the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >> Best,
    >> Howie
    >>
    >>
    > Either will work just fine. Use whichever one you are most comfortable
    > with.


    Both Mac and PC are just as klunky except they're clunky in different ways.
    The Mac is not the wonder machine the 'Macophiles' say it is, but OSX was a
    significant improvement over the Mac Classic OS which was heading for
    redundancy.

    If Microsoft were really serious about their OS, they'd dump DOS and all
    this other patches and updates since Win95 and re-write their OS for Here
    and Now - perhaps using UNIX too as this may make the 2 incompatible formats
    more compatible. I do like the screen layout of OSX far more than the
    non-heuristic WinXP. The flat screens on the iMac don't have the same colour
    depth as a CRT, so perhaps the eMac may be a better bet. I don't know if
    it's possible to use the monitor on my iMac with a Mac Mini, if it is then I
    may go that way in a few years when this Mac becomes too old. I don't see
    why I should have to buy a whole new monitor every time I upgrade the
    computer.
  31. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    huntzing@pica.army.mil wrote:
    > Howard wrote:
    >
    > My suggestion for an Apple machine to consider would be the DP 1.8GHz
    > G5 PowerMac. It lists for $1999 but needs another ~$170 to bump up
    the
    > RAM by +1GB. Do check to see if you can qualify for one of the
    > discount groups (EDU/etc), as this will cut around $150 off the
    price.
    > This system (with 1GB of RAM) should slice thru most Photoshop tasks
    > quite respectfully, and I'd not expect to have to touch the machine
    for
    > any upgrades for at least 3 years. I've used the Single Processor
    > version of this machine and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem.
    I
    > did throw a 1GB photoshop file to see what it would do and while it
    did
    > cause it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    >
    > -hh

    I have an athlon64 i built myself for a fraction of that cost with 1gb
    of fastest RAM on the market, 256mb video card, two 160gb SATA hard
    drives, two 21' crt monitors, a card media drive, a dvd burner, a cd
    burner. In addition, I added to it a lot of quietening accessories.
    I recommend that.
  32. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    > In article <96ea5$41f20bba$3e3aaa83$6580@news1.versatel.nl>,
    >>
    >>A G5 running 10.3 can use all the 8GB, but *not* by a single process. Single
    >>processes are limited to about 3GB. On top of that the standard OS X 10.3
    >>malloc library suffers from fragmentation, not so nice either. All this is
    >>going to be fixed by 10.4, we hope. But this thread was Mac vs (windows) PC,
    >>not Mac vs. Linux64, and in Windows land memory management is worse.
    >>
    >>-- Hans
    >
    >
    > 10.4.0 does not support 64 bit addressing in GUI applications. If
    > Photoshop wanted to operate directly on >4GB, the application would need
    > to be split into a 64 bit rendering daemon and a 32 bit GUI. Not pretty.
    Thanks Kevin, for this remark.
    I've heard before that certain libraries were still missing, but this sounds
    very bad. I also don't really understand what the problem is, after all so
    many other companies make 64bit systems for such a long time now, and Linux64
    is also there for a quite some time.
    Maybe there is a way out by using the X11 server, X11 allows 64bit
    applications to display with a 32bit server. You could argue though that in
    that case you'd be cheaper off using Linux straight away.
    This is getting a bit OT, sorry...
    >
    -- Hans
  33. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In 6 to 18 months the best choice will be either a dual core AMD or
    Intel Processor with a Gig of Ram and 2 300 Gig Hard Drives plus a blue
    ray writer. Microsoft will have their 64 bit OS and the applications
    will begin to be 64 bit as well. A dual core CPU is almost like have
    twin cpus' on the same board. And you can build this for about 40% the
    price of an overpriced Mac.

    Tom Monego wrote:

    >In article <3r1Id.1631$r27.342@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    >wettstein@earthlink.net says...
    >
    >
    >>I'm an old pc person but tempted by the new mac stuff. I just looked at
    >>Picasa and was impressed. On the other hand, I keep hearing how wonderful
    >>the Mac osX is on media stuff, etc. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >>Best,
    >>Howie
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >Use both, my Mac at work is very slow and 6 years old. I prefer my Athlon 2.7
    >at home, even my Pentium 1gig with Win 98 BUT I'm a PC person. Remember with
    >Mac OSX you need 10.3+ everything else makes any Win look smooth. Photoshop CS
    >can only access 2 gigs of RAM, anything else is not worth it. If you can afford
    >a dual G5 and 2 big apple screens I'd go for it. Otherwise a PC is better than
    >any single processor Mac.
    >
    >Tom
    >
    >
    >
  34. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <8AzId.13890$wZ2.7937@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>, measekite
    <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > In 6 to 18 months the best choice will be either a dual core AMD or
    > Intel Processor with a Gig of Ram and 2 300 Gig Hard Drives plus a blue
    > ray writer. Microsoft will have their 64 bit OS and the applications
    > will begin to be 64 bit as well. A dual core CPU is almost like have
    > twin cpus' on the same board. And you can build this for about 40% the
    > price of an overpriced Mac.

    An AMD product will never be the best choice of any contest.

    But I don't care, I'll stick with my Macs.
  35. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <mcmurtri-BF1776.02561922012005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
    Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    > In article <96ea5$41f20bba$3e3aaa83$6580@news1.versatel.nl>,
    > HvdV <nohanz@svi.nl> wrote:
    >
    > > nospam wrote:
    > > > In article <11dbf$41f17788$3e3aaa83$5338@news1.versatel.nl>, HvdV
    > > > <nohanz@svi.nl> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >>To carry the analogy further: a 4-lane autobahn with two lanes under
    > > >>construction, OS X 10.3 still doesn't support 64bit addressing. So much
    > > >>for
    > > >>'the first 64bit PC'.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > osx 10.3 supports 64 bit addressing. the g5 can accept 8 gigs of ram
    > > > and osx can see all of it and use all of it.
    > > A G5 running 10.3 can use all the 8GB, but *not* by a single process.
    > > Single
    > > processes are limited to about 3GB. On top of that the standard OS X 10.3
    > > malloc library suffers from fragmentation, not so nice either. All this is
    > > going to be fixed by 10.4, we hope. But this thread was Mac vs (windows)
    > > PC,
    > > not Mac vs. Linux64, and in Windows land memory management is worse.
    > >
    > > -- Hans
    >
    > 10.4.0 does not support 64 bit addressing in GUI applications. If
    > Photoshop wanted to operate directly on >4GB, the application would need
    > to be split into a 64 bit rendering daemon and a 32 bit GUI. Not pretty.
    >
    > Apple doesn't release product roadmaps so one can only guess when the OS
    > will completely support 64 bit addressing.

    As if Nikon versus Canon wasn't enough, now this group has to entertain
    yet another useless holy war. Only thing is, photo folks should stick to
    talking about what they know best, because this thread is getting pretty
    ridiculous.

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a 32-bit GUI and a 64-bit
    computation engine for the parts of your apps that need it. There's no
    substantial functional difference in your programming approach to do
    this, since most developers write separate computational routines
    anyway! That said, for professional applications like Photoshop, I can
    assure you that the computational routines are indeed independent of the
    GUI, and the GUI will never have any practical need to address a 64-bit
    memory space. Any GUI that would need direct access to a 64-bit address
    space is a bit beyond comprehension, frankly. Methinks you would need an
    awfully large screen before that happens ;-)

    If we all want to entertain this kind of holy war, there's a whole
    series of annoying newsgroups where this can take place (like
    comp.sys.mac.advocay - UGH).

    Let's keep this real and get down to basics:

    There are lots of pros and cons to PCs and Macs - to the OP's point, I
    would say that his question was too broad and unclear: what is it,
    specifically, that you feel you need from your computing photography
    experience that you are currently missing? It might be a piece of
    software that you need, and not a new platform.

    (BTW - for the poor OP's benefit after getting caught up in all of this
    junk: when it comes to price versus performance, Macs aren't
    meaningfully more expensive; there are just fewer choices in the Mac
    world at the affordable level, which is a product of Apple's niche.
    Expensive Macs are generally comparable (in terms of speed, hardware
    capabilities, and performance/engineering esoterica) to expensive PCs,
    although the graphics card choices are a bit fewer and farther between.
    That said, for anything other than gaming and certain types of Maya
    workflow, that's not really an issue.)

    So it all depends upon what you are looking for - and if you are not
    sure, then you're just kinda playing mind games with yourself about Macs
    versus PCs...and this isn't going to be a productive newsgroup for that
    kind of debate at all.

    Drew

    --
    ___________________________________________________________________
    The Mac Orchard - http://www.macorchard.com/
    Essential Internet Applications since 1995
  36. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    "Mike Henley" <casioculture@gmail.com> wrote:

    > [-hh] wrote:
    > > Howard wrote:
    > >
    > > I've used the Single Processor version of this machine [1.8GHz G5]
    > > and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I did throw a 1GB
    > > photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did cause
    > > it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    > >
    > > -hh
    >
    > I have an athlon64 i built myself for a fraction of that cost...


    I'm very sorry, but a pet peeve of mine are DIY'ers who conveniently
    ignore the trade-offs, such as that by paying less, they had to invest
    more of their personal free time to spec, buy & assemble the system.


    Personally, I've done DIY's too and generally, I won't bother to do them
    anymore because I'm more time-limited than money-limited. YMMV.


    Any comparison that doesn't try to account for known differences between
    A vs B simply isn't a very good comparison. to that end, a good DIY PC
    assembly will be an all day job IMO, which at 'skilled PC tech rates' is
    easily worth $500 in a comparison.

    Now personally, I don't care if you DIY or not. Just please cut me a
    break and try to avoid insinuating that everyone else is wrong if they
    don't do a DIY as you did.

    You may have paid a fraction of the cost, but I paid a fraction of the
    time. YMMV on which one is more valuable.


    - - -

    In any event, I was replying to post some pseudo-benchmarks:

    Geek details: 2003 ('Rev 1') Mac G5 SP 1.8GHz, 900MHz frontside bus,
    1.5GB RAM. Running OS 10.3.7 and Photoshop 7.0.1 w/G5 plug-in.

    The 1GB Photoshop file I referred to was slightly larger; around 1.2GB,
    with an image size of (17433 x 11551). It took 1:20 to read it in from
    the hard drive, then a very long 6:60 to do a simple "AutoLevel" on it.
    Resampling it to (3018 x 2000) took 1:35.

    Comment: clearly, for day-to-day productivity tasks, this is too slow.
    Granted, we also have to keep in mind that this image is roughly
    equivalent to a 2013 MegaPixels...not exactly routine either.

    Dropping to a much smaller 120MB Photoshop file (8717 x 5778; = 50
    MegaPixels equivalent), it took :05 to load, :02 to AutoLevel, ~:01 to
    do a 180 degree rotate, ~:01 to run a sharpen filter.

    Comment: I consider this to be pragmatically fast enough performance:
    the hardware won't generally going to impede the workflow. Obviously,
    smaller (4, 6, 8, 12 MegaPixel) images can only have better response
    times which will perceptually approach "instant" much of the time. As
    such, I consider this hardware to be adequate both for today as well as
    for the reasonably foreseeable future...eg, until digital cameras
    approach 50 MP.


    -hh
  37. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    rafe bustin wrote:
    >
    > Let's compare apples to apples.

    Exactly.


    > How long do you keep a PC (or Mac) ?

    PC's around 3 years; Mac's double that.
    I'll avoid the 'Total Cost of Ownership'
    debate that's implied by this.


    > How many hours will you spend working on it,
    > over its useful life?
    >
    > In my experience, 8 hours is low for assembling
    > and fully configuring a DIY computer.
    >
    > On the other hand, considering how many hours
    > I'll be using it, it's a small and wise
    > investment.

    Point made: this is one approach to the question,
    and the same argument can be made about spending an
    extra $500 - $1000 upfront too: over five years,
    that extra expense works out to only a couple of
    bucks a week: I guess I'm suggesting to DIY your
    coffee instead of buying it from Starbucks :-)

    FWIW, my personal priority has been to minimize the
    non-productive hours that I'd have to be invested
    to maintain the system (from all sources): if I only
    have 10 hours/week that I can spend on my home PC,
    I'd prefer for 100% of them to be doing what I want,
    and not spent downloading the latest OS/AV updates.
    This means that a DIY is effectively suggesting that
    I should start out ~8 hours behind this power curve...

    But since DIY'ing only applies to Windows/Linux PC's;
    & since Photoshop isn't available for Linux, it really
    means Windows (the highest maintenance OS there is):

    ....which means that I'd never achieve "break even".


    > But not for everyone, that's for sure, and
    > it can be frustrating at times.

    DIY'ing is always a great thing when nothing goes wrong :-)

    I've had enough time spent doing low-level formats and the
    like such that I no longer actively seek out this kind of
    work for the very reason that it is work, not fun.


    > OTOH, when you are done you will know something about
    > the machine you'll be working on.

    Sure. However, if my true objective is digital photography,
    wouldn't it be more beneficial to me to spend that time getting
    to learn more about Photoshop instead? I'd rather invest
    those same hours experimenting with the Mandrake Technique.


    -hh
  38. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:32:55 -0500, " H. Huntzinger"
    <{NOSPAM-rm_to_reply}rec-scuba2005@huntzinger.com> wrote:


    >I'm very sorry, but a pet peeve of mine are DIY'ers who conveniently
    >ignore the trade-offs, such as that by paying less, they had to invest
    >more of their personal free time to spec, buy & assemble the system.
    >
    >
    >Personally, I've done DIY's too and generally, I won't bother to do them
    >anymore because I'm more time-limited than money-limited. YMMV.
    >
    >
    >Any comparison that doesn't try to account for known differences between
    >A vs B simply isn't a very good comparison. to that end, a good DIY PC
    >assembly will be an all day job IMO, which at 'skilled PC tech rates' is
    >easily worth $500 in a comparison.


    Let's compare apples to apples. The mere
    hardware assembly of a DIY PC should take
    no more than an hour or two. What takes
    the bulk of the time is installing the
    OS and applications, and then moving files
    from the "old" machine to the new. And that
    chunk of time will be the same, whether it's
    a DIY machine or straight out of the box
    from Dell or Apple.


    >Now personally, I don't care if you DIY or not. Just please cut me a
    >break and try to avoid insinuating that everyone else is wrong if they
    >don't do a DIY as you did.
    >
    >You may have paid a fraction of the cost, but I paid a fraction of the
    >time. YMMV on which one is more valuable.


    How long do you keep a PC (or Mac) ?

    How many hours will you spend working on it,
    over its useful life?

    In my experience, 8 hours is low for assembling
    and fully configuring a DIY computer.

    On the other hand, considering how many hours
    I'll be using it, it's a small and wise
    investment.

    But not for everyone, that's for sure, and
    it can be frustrating at times. OTOH, when
    you are done you will know something about
    the machine you'll be working on.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  39. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    " H. Huntzinger" wrote:
    >
    > "Mike Henley" <casioculture@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > > [-hh] wrote:
    > > > Howard wrote:
    > > >
    > > > I've used the Single Processor version of this machine [1.8GHz G5]
    > > > and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I did throw a 1GB
    > > > photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did cause
    > > > it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    > > >
    > > > -hh
    > >
    > > I have an athlon64 i built myself for a fraction of that cost...
    >
    > I'm very sorry, but a pet peeve of mine are DIY'ers who conveniently
    > ignore the trade-offs, such as that by paying less, they had to invest
    > more of their personal free time to spec, buy & assemble the system.
    >
    > Personally, I've done DIY's too and generally, I won't bother to do them
    > anymore because I'm more time-limited than money-limited. YMMV.
    >
    > Any comparison that doesn't try to account for known differences between
    > A vs B simply isn't a very good comparison. to that end, a good DIY PC
    > assembly will be an all day job IMO, which at 'skilled PC tech rates' is
    > easily worth $500 in a comparison.

    I would suggest that if it takes all day for a person to assemble a PC,
    then perhaps that person shouldn't be assembling their own PC. It's a
    couple of hours, Max, for most enthusiasts, about an hour and a half,
    max, for me.

    >
    > Now personally, I don't care if you DIY or not. Just please cut me a
    > break and try to avoid insinuating that everyone else is wrong if they
    > don't do a DIY as you did.

    DIY is far from being for everyone. In real life (as opposed to online)
    I know few who are confident even to select components like MoBos.

    >
    > You may have paid a fraction of the cost, but I paid a fraction of the
    > time. YMMV on which one is more valuable.

    When I can get a faster better machine cheaper by investing a few hours,
    that CAN be worth it. For me anyway :)

    Lisa
  40. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <c7v9v0595f79t8j56aig2b3f9j2h9runei@4ax.com>, rafe bustin
    <rafe.bustin@verizon.net> wrote:

    > Let's compare apples to apples. The mere
    > hardware assembly of a DIY PC should take
    > no more than an hour or two. What takes
    > the bulk of the time is installing the
    > OS and applications, and then moving files
    > from the "old" machine to the new. And that
    > chunk of time will be the same, whether it's
    > a DIY machine or straight out of the box
    > from Dell or Apple.

    if you buy a machine from apple or dell, the os is already installed.
    it is ready to use *out of the box*.

    copying old files is not a requirement to use the new machine, but may
    be handy if the new machine is replacing the old one. in a corporate
    setting, a users files might be on a network server anyway.

    in the mac's case, copying files from the old machine is automatic if
    you want. simply attach the old mac to the new mac and it copies your
    old preferences and files over, automatically.

    > How long do you keep a PC (or Mac) ?
    >
    > How many hours will you spend working on it,
    > over its useful life?
    >
    > In my experience, 8 hours is low for assembling
    > and fully configuring a DIY computer.

    a whole day???? for what i can bill for a days work, i can buy a second
    rather nice computer.

    > On the other hand, considering how many hours
    > I'll be using it, it's a small and wise
    > investment.

    so is spending a little extra and having it work out of the box and a
    warranty if anything goes wrong.

    if something fails with your home built, who covers the repair? or is
    there fingerpointing such as 'our card works fine, it is your
    motherboard' ?

    again, it comes down to which is more expendable, money or time.

    > But not for everyone, that's for sure, and
    > it can be frustrating at times. OTOH, when
    > you are done you will know something about
    > the machine you'll be working on.

    knowledge of the machine is nice, but not a requirement to do
    productive work. just as knowing how an internal combustion engine
    works is handy if you break down on the highway but 99% of the motoring
    public still manages to get to where they are going without such
    knowledge.
  41. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Lisa Horton wrote:
    > " H. Huntzinger" wrote:
    > >
    > > "Mike Henley" <casioculture@gmail.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > > [-hh] wrote:
    > > > > Howard wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > I've used the Single Processor version of this machine [1.8GHz
    G5]
    > > > > and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I did throw a 1GB
    > > > > photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did cause
    > > > > it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    > > > >
    > > > > -hh
    > > >
    > > > I have an athlon64 i built myself for a fraction of that cost...
    > >
    > > I'm very sorry, but a pet peeve of mine are DIY'ers who
    conveniently
    > > ignore the trade-offs, such as that by paying less, they had to
    invest
    > > more of their personal free time to spec, buy & assemble the
    system.
    > >
    > > Personally, I've done DIY's too and generally, I won't bother to do
    them
    > > anymore because I'm more time-limited than money-limited. YMMV.
    > >
    > > Any comparison that doesn't try to account for known differences
    between
    > > A vs B simply isn't a very good comparison. to that end, a good
    DIY PC
    > > assembly will be an all day job IMO, which at 'skilled PC tech
    rates' is
    > > easily worth $500 in a comparison.
    >

    An all day job at 'skilled chef rates' can easily be worth a lot, yet
    this can't be taken as an argument to reject cooking at home.

    Building a machine is not for all situations, but when you want a
    machine that's tailored to your specific needs with a certain degree of
    quality, then building it can be a more efficient use of time and
    effort than twisting yourself to fit with a mass-produced one or
    cluelessly hassling with customer support about its faults.

    I also think a DIY built machine is likely to last longer because it's
    more likely upgradable.


    > I would suggest that if it takes all day for a person to assemble a
    PC,
    > then perhaps that person shouldn't be assembling their own PC. It's
    a
    > couple of hours, Max, for most enthusiasts, about an hour and a half,
    > max, for me.
    >
    > >
    > > Now personally, I don't care if you DIY or not. Just please cut me
    a
    > > break and try to avoid insinuating that everyone else is wrong if
    they
    > > don't do a DIY as you did.
    >
    > DIY is far from being for everyone. In real life (as opposed to
    online)
    > I know few who are confident even to select components like MoBos.
    >
    > >
    > > You may have paid a fraction of the cost, but I paid a fraction of
    the
    > > time. YMMV on which one is more valuable.
    >
    > When I can get a faster better machine cheaper by investing a few
    hours,
    > that CAN be worth it. For me anyway :)
    >
    > Lisa
  42. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    huntzing@pica.army.mil wrote:
    > rafe bustin wrote:
    >
    >>Let's compare apples to apples.
    >
    >
    > Exactly.
    >
    >
    >
    >>How long do you keep a PC (or Mac) ?
    >
    >
    > PC's around 3 years; Mac's double that.
    > I'll avoid the 'Total Cost of Ownership'
    > debate that's implied by this.
    >
    >
    >
    >>How many hours will you spend working on it,
    >>over its useful life?
    >>
    >>In my experience, 8 hours is low for assembling
    >>and fully configuring a DIY computer.
    >>
    >>On the other hand, considering how many hours
    >>I'll be using it, it's a small and wise
    >>investment.
    >
    >
    > Point made: this is one approach to the question,
    > and the same argument can be made about spending an
    > extra $500 - $1000 upfront too: over five years,
    > that extra expense works out to only a couple of
    > bucks a week: I guess I'm suggesting to DIY your
    > coffee instead of buying it from Starbucks :-)
    >
    > FWIW, my personal priority has been to minimize the
    > non-productive hours that I'd have to be invested
    > to maintain the system (from all sources): if I only
    > have 10 hours/week that I can spend on my home PC,
    > I'd prefer for 100% of them to be doing what I want,
    > and not spent downloading the latest OS/AV updates.
    > This means that a DIY is effectively suggesting that
    > I should start out ~8 hours behind this power curve...
    >
    > But since DIY'ing only applies to Windows/Linux PC's;
    > & since Photoshop isn't available for Linux, it really
    > means Windows (the highest maintenance OS there is):
    >
    > ...which means that I'd never achieve "break even".
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >>But not for everyone, that's for sure, and
    >>it can be frustrating at times.
    >
    >
    > DIY'ing is always a great thing when nothing goes wrong :-)
    >
    > I've had enough time spent doing low-level formats and the
    > like such that I no longer actively seek out this kind of
    > work for the very reason that it is work, not fun.
    >
    >
    >
    >>OTOH, when you are done you will know something about
    >>the machine you'll be working on.
    >
    >
    > Sure. However, if my true objective is digital photography,
    > wouldn't it be more beneficial to me to spend that time getting
    > to learn more about Photoshop instead? I'd rather invest
    > those same hours experimenting with the Mandrake Technique.
    >
    >
    > -hh
    >
    You consider 8 hours in 3 years significant. One can configure WinXP to
    download, and install, updates automatically now. Kind of defeats your
    argument. BTW, I don't think a 6 year use life on an Apple is
    reasonable, unless you don't mind having a lot of software and hardware
    that won't run on your machine for the last 3 of those years.. Mac OS
    updates tend to be NOT compatible with older ones, and even the hardware
    support isn't compatible.
    Surely one must consider these factors.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
  43. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    In article <FohJd.14631$eS7.9324@fe06.lga>, Ron Hunter
    <rphunter@charter.net> wrote:

    > BTW, I don't think a 6 year use life on an Apple is
    > reasonable, unless you don't mind having a lot of software and hardware
    > that won't run on your machine for the last 3 of those years..

    windows is not much different in this regard.

    > Mac OS
    > updates tend to be NOT compatible with older ones, and even the hardware
    > support isn't compatible.

    other than the mac os 9 to mac os x transition, which obsoleted a *lot*
    of software and hardware, macs can and do run for quite a number of
    years.

    os x will run on macs as far back as 1997, and even 1995 with a little
    effort. it may not be officially supported but it works. many of
    those old macs can be upgraded to a g3 or g4, and while not as fast as
    a new mac, they are still reasonable machines.

    old machines (mac or pc) might not be the best choice for something
    like rendering digital video and burning it to a dvd, but they are
    still quite usable.

    most any computer starts to show its age after 2-3 years. lots of new
    software assumes the latest and greatest, and might not be optimal.
    but the old stuff keeps on chugging just fine.
  44. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Lisa Horton wrote:
    >
    > " H. Huntzinger" wrote:
    >
    >>"Mike Henley" <casioculture@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>[-hh] wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Howard wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>I've used the Single Processor version of this machine [1.8GHz G5]
    >>>>and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I did throw a 1GB
    >>>>photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did cause
    >>>>it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    >>>>
    >>>>-hh
    >>>
    >>>I have an athlon64 i built myself for a fraction of that cost...
    >>
    >>I'm very sorry, but a pet peeve of mine are DIY'ers who conveniently
    >>ignore the trade-offs, such as that by paying less, they had to invest
    >>more of their personal free time to spec, buy & assemble the system.
    >>
    >>Personally, I've done DIY's too and generally, I won't bother to do them
    >>anymore because I'm more time-limited than money-limited. YMMV.
    >>
    >>Any comparison that doesn't try to account for known differences between
    >>A vs B simply isn't a very good comparison. to that end, a good DIY PC
    >>assembly will be an all day job IMO, which at 'skilled PC tech rates' is
    >>easily worth $500 in a comparison.
    >
    >
    > I would suggest that if it takes all day for a person to assemble a PC,
    > then perhaps that person shouldn't be assembling their own PC. It's a
    > couple of hours, Max, for most enthusiasts, about an hour and a half,
    > max, for me.
    >
    >
    >>Now personally, I don't care if you DIY or not. Just please cut me a
    >>break and try to avoid insinuating that everyone else is wrong if they
    >>don't do a DIY as you did.
    >
    >
    > DIY is far from being for everyone. In real life (as opposed to online)
    > I know few who are confident even to select components like MoBos.
    >
    >
    >>You may have paid a fraction of the cost, but I paid a fraction of the
    >>time. YMMV on which one is more valuable.
    >
    >
    > When I can get a faster better machine cheaper by investing a few hours,
    > that CAN be worth it. For me anyway :)
    >
    > Lisa

    I highly personal choice. I am quite technically capable of assembling
    my own computer, and setting up the software, I just don't get any
    pleasure out of such things any more, and have the money to buy a
    computer that is ready to plug and go.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
  45. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Ron Hunter wrote:
    >
    > Lisa Horton wrote:
    > >
    > > " H. Huntzinger" wrote:
    > >
    > >>"Mike Henley" <casioculture@gmail.com> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>[-hh] wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>>Howard wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>I've used the Single Processor version of this machine [1.8GHz G5]
    > >>>>and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I did throw a 1GB
    > >>>>photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did cause
    > >>>>it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>-hh
    > >>>
    > >>>I have an athlon64 i built myself for a fraction of that cost...
    > >>
    > >>I'm very sorry, but a pet peeve of mine are DIY'ers who conveniently
    > >>ignore the trade-offs, such as that by paying less, they had to invest
    > >>more of their personal free time to spec, buy & assemble the system.
    > >>
    > >>Personally, I've done DIY's too and generally, I won't bother to do them
    > >>anymore because I'm more time-limited than money-limited. YMMV.
    > >>
    > >>Any comparison that doesn't try to account for known differences between
    > >>A vs B simply isn't a very good comparison. to that end, a good DIY PC
    > >>assembly will be an all day job IMO, which at 'skilled PC tech rates' is
    > >>easily worth $500 in a comparison.
    > >
    > >
    > > I would suggest that if it takes all day for a person to assemble a PC,
    > > then perhaps that person shouldn't be assembling their own PC. It's a
    > > couple of hours, Max, for most enthusiasts, about an hour and a half,
    > > max, for me.
    > >
    > >
    > >>Now personally, I don't care if you DIY or not. Just please cut me a
    > >>break and try to avoid insinuating that everyone else is wrong if they
    > >>don't do a DIY as you did.
    > >
    > >
    > > DIY is far from being for everyone. In real life (as opposed to online)
    > > I know few who are confident even to select components like MoBos.
    > >
    > >
    > >>You may have paid a fraction of the cost, but I paid a fraction of the
    > >>time. YMMV on which one is more valuable.
    > >
    > >
    > > When I can get a faster better machine cheaper by investing a few hours,
    > > that CAN be worth it. For me anyway :)
    > >
    > > Lisa
    >
    > I highly personal choice. I am quite technically capable of assembling
    > my own computer, and setting up the software, I just don't get any
    > pleasure out of such things any more, and have the money to buy a
    > computer that is ready to plug and go.
    >

    I understand your view. I don't actually *enjoy* building them, but I
    do enjoy having a machine that is custom built to my specifications,
    configured specifically for my needs and priorities, not to mention
    faster, cheaper, or both compared to anything pre-built. IOW, I don't
    build them for the pleasure of building, but for the benefits that it
    brings. Of course, you can pay someone else to assemble a machine to
    your specs and get most of the benefit. But I trust my workmanship more
    than anyone else's :)

    Lisa
  46. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Mike Henley wrote:
    > Lisa Horton wrote:
    >
    >>" H. Huntzinger" wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Mike Henley" <casioculture@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>[-hh] wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>Howard wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I've used the Single Processor version of this machine [1.8GHz
    >
    > G5]
    >
    >>>>>and ~20MB Photoshop files aren't a problem. I did throw a 1GB
    >>>>>photoshop file to see what it would do and while it did cause
    >>>>>it to pause and chew, it did swallow.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>-hh
    >>>>
    >>>>I have an athlon64 i built myself for a fraction of that cost...
    >>>
    >>>I'm very sorry, but a pet peeve of mine are DIY'ers who
    >
    > conveniently
    >
    >>>ignore the trade-offs, such as that by paying less, they had to
    >
    > invest
    >
    >>>more of their personal free time to spec, buy & assemble the
    >
    > system.
    >
    >>>Personally, I've done DIY's too and generally, I won't bother to do
    >
    > them
    >
    >>>anymore because I'm more time-limited than money-limited. YMMV.
    >>>
    >>>Any comparison that doesn't try to account for known differences
    >
    > between
    >
    >>>A vs B simply isn't a very good comparison. to that end, a good
    >
    > DIY PC
    >
    >>>assembly will be an all day job IMO, which at 'skilled PC tech
    >
    > rates' is
    >
    >>>easily worth $500 in a comparison.
    >>
    >
    > An all day job at 'skilled chef rates' can easily be worth a lot, yet
    > this can't be taken as an argument to reject cooking at home.
    >
    > Building a machine is not for all situations, but when you want a
    > machine that's tailored to your specific needs with a certain degree of
    > quality, then building it can be a more efficient use of time and
    > effort than twisting yourself to fit with a mass-produced one or
    > cluelessly hassling with customer support about its faults.
    >
    > I also think a DIY built machine is likely to last longer because it's
    > more likely upgradable.
    >
    >
    >
    >>I would suggest that if it takes all day for a person to assemble a
    >
    > PC,
    >
    >>then perhaps that person shouldn't be assembling their own PC. It's
    >
    > a
    >
    >>couple of hours, Max, for most enthusiasts, about an hour and a half,
    >>max, for me.
    >>
    >>
    >>>Now personally, I don't care if you DIY or not. Just please cut me
    >
    > a
    >
    >>>break and try to avoid insinuating that everyone else is wrong if
    >
    > they
    >
    >>>don't do a DIY as you did.
    >>
    >>DIY is far from being for everyone. In real life (as opposed to
    >
    > online)
    >
    >>I know few who are confident even to select components like MoBos.
    >>
    >>
    >>>You may have paid a fraction of the cost, but I paid a fraction of
    >
    > the
    >
    >>>time. YMMV on which one is more valuable.
    >>
    >>When I can get a faster better machine cheaper by investing a few
    >
    > hours,
    >
    >>that CAN be worth it. For me anyway :)
    >>
    >>Lisa
    >
    >

    One also gets control over the quality of components in the home-built,
    which can be a factor in how long the computer can be useful.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
  47. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    nospam wrote:
    > In article <c7v9v0595f79t8j56aig2b3f9j2h9runei@4ax.com>, rafe bustin
    > <rafe.bustin@verizon.net> wrote:
    >
    > so is spending a little extra and having it work out of the box and a
    > warranty if anything goes wrong.
    >
    > if something fails with your home built, who covers the repair? or is
    > there fingerpointing such as 'our card works fine, it is your
    > motherboard' ?
    >
    > again, it comes down to which is more expendable, money or time.
    >
    > > But not for everyone, that's for sure, and
    > > it can be frustrating at times. OTOH, when
    > > you are done you will know something about
    > > the machine you'll be working on.
    >
    > knowledge of the machine is nice, but not a requirement to do
    > productive work. just as knowing how an internal combustion engine
    > works is handy if you break down on the highway but 99% of the
    motoring
    > public still manages to get to where they are going without such
    > knowledge.

    I wish I could've assembled my laptop or PDA the same way I assembled
    my desktop PC. I guess same can be said for a digicam too; I would've
    had complete choice over what type of batteries, memory, lcd,
    viewfinder, sensor, controls, and so on.
  48. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Ron Hunter wrote:
    > Mac OS
    > updates tend to be NOT compatible with older ones, and even the hardware
    > support isn't compatible.
    >
    What the hell are you talking about??

    --
    John McWilliams
  49. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

    Ron Hunter wrote:
    > I highly personal choice.

    ?
    I am quite technically capable of assembling
    > my own computer, and setting up the software, I just don't get any
    > pleasure out of such things any more, and have the money to buy a
    > computer that is ready to plug and go.
    >
    Then you must be capbable of trimming your replies.

    --
    John McWilliams
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