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6870-6850 BESTS GTX460 %25-30 (OFFICIAL SLIDES)

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October 19, 2010 3:29:10 PM

HERE ARE THE OFFICIAL SLIDES





















October 19, 2010 3:31:51 PM

OMG CAPS LOCK OFFICIAL.
October 19, 2010 3:45:04 PM

That we will find out on friday :) 
Related resources
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 3:59:17 PM

these comparisons are made against a 675mhz gtx 460. For power/pricing reasons Nvidia chose that route. Another slide to consider :) 
October 19, 2010 4:01:43 PM

@notty22

i can also tell you that 6850 will probably do 775mhz ----> 1050mhz

oc comparison is useless before product launch
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:04:08 PM

So are company slides without context ?
I agree , the 6850 will likely clock as well as the 6870, but what that is ?
a c 125 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:10:53 PM

Yes it is wierd how AMD are comparing stock HD6850/6870 against a stock GTX460 768/1GB, Why are they not comparing a overclocked GTX460 against a stock 6850/6870?

It was my understanding that power usage doesnt matter at all, and that everyone who buys a GTX460 automatically overclocks it.... LOLZ

C'mon notty saying the GTX460 overclocks sooo well is pretty pointless, for 1) not many people overclock, and certainly not to 800Mhz (from 675) and 2) for all anyone knows the new 68xx series could overclock well too.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:15:22 PM

Rustyy117 said:
Yes it is wierd how AMD are comparing stock HD6850/6870 against a stock GTX460 768/1GB, Why are they not comparing a overclocked GTX460 against a stock 6850/6870?

It was my understanding that power usage doesnt matter at all, and that everyone who buys a GTX460 automatically overclocks it.... LOLZ

C'mon notty saying the GTX460 overclocks sooo well is pretty pointless, for 1) not many people overclock, and certainly not to 800Mhz (from 675) and 2) for all anyone knows the new 68xx series could overclock well too.

You really believe that ? Then why are articles like this written where they compare a gtx 460 against crossfired 5770's or against a 5870 ? Because its the gtx 460's hidden threats.
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/...
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/...
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/palit-ge...
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:20:26 PM

notty22 said:
You really believe that ? Then why are articles like this written where they compare a gtx 460 against crossfired 5770's or against a 5870 ? Because its the gtx 460's hidden threats.
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/...
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/...
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/palit-ge...



I'd believe benchmarks from nzone before either of those 2.

AMD's slides were benchmarked at 1080p btw.

Hilarious benchmarks at Kitguru btw. 1ghz 460 and only an 880 mhz 5770? So they overclocked the 460 by 10 times more. :D 

1ghz 5770's would thump this and still draw less power.

Some interesting info on the Palit Sonic reviewed in that xbit review.

Quote:
Vadar@xbit:

Palit card died not so long ago because of overvoltage. At first, it passed all tests, but after some time (quite a long) it suddenly started to show visual artifacts and soon after that, card refused to work at all. "Safe software voltmod" is not so safe, after all.
October 19, 2010 4:23:17 PM

Why are there 2 page 6s and 2 page 16s?
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:29:23 PM

eyefinity said:
1) Kitguru lawl.

2) Xbitlabs lawl.


I'd believe benchmarks from nzone before either of those 2.

AMD's slides were benchmarked at 1080p btw.

Hilarious benchmarks at Kitguru btw. 1ghz 460 and only an 880 mhz 5770? So they overclocked the 460 by 10 times more. :D 

1ghz 5770's would thump this and still draw less power.


Your sounding desperate, that was the max overclock. Hard to believe ?
We saw this in the launch reviews of the gtx 460, some sites tested with 675 models and some used the 820mhz models AVAILABLE AT LAUNCH, and obviously there are noticable differences.
A month or two after Barts launch, I hope to see, a review of factory o/c cards
6870 vs gtx 460, there are many @860 ,the evga FTW, The Beast, Palit Sonic
Because one company chose one way to market and price their cards, does not mean a enthusiast has to stick his head in the sand ,and act like this performance does not exist.
a c 130 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:32:21 PM

Trying to ignore the overclocking prowess of the 460 when comparing it to any card is as ridiculous as saying you should have ignored the unlock able nature of the X800 GT0-2.
Why Nvidia chose to market a card with such a wealth of headroom i don't know, fact is they did.

Power dosent matter half as much as people like to make out. Yes its good to get more performance for less power but it dosent even register when im comparing cards to buy.
When recomending for others it has to be considered and the options given of course, personally i think the whole thing is over hyped.

Mactronix :) 
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:34:19 PM

notty22 said:
Your sounding desperate, that was the max overclock. Hard to believe ?
We saw this in the launch reviews of the gtx 460, some sites tested with 675 models and some used the 820mhz models AVAILABLE AT LAUNCH, and obviously there are noticable differences.
A month or two after Barts launch, I hope to see, a review of factory o/c cards
6870 vs gtx 460, there are many @860 ,the evga FTW, The Beast, Palit Sonic
Because one company chose one way to market and price their cards, does not mean a enthusiast has to stick his head in the sand ,and act like this performance does not exist.


Quote:
Vadar@xbit:

Palit card died not so long ago because of overvoltage. At first, it passed all tests, but after some time (quite a long) it suddenly started to show visual artifacts and soon after that, card refused to work at all. "Safe software voltmod" is not so safe, after all.


As for the 880mhz 5770 overclock at kitguru, yes I find that very hard to believe.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:36:23 PM

Them slides are pretty useless anyways..

Its like comparing 1.4 Vauxhall Astra vs a Ferrari F40.

AMD will show/review anything agaisnt a bottom ended card for the interest of boosting AMD's sales. Why would AMD compare there cards to cards whih are better by Nvidia? Fact is, this is a shitty marketing bust by AMD to increase fan base/profits.

All we can do is what and see when the actually come out and someone compares it like for like card in the real world, rather than in a premade scenario of AMD's beliefs
a c 130 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:38:34 PM

eyefinity said:
Quote:
Vadar@xbit:

Palit card died not so long ago because of overvoltage. At first, it passed all tests, but after some time (quite a long) it suddenly started to show visual artifacts and soon after that, card refused to work at all. "Safe software voltmod" is not so safe, after all.


As for the 880mhz 5770 overclock at kitguru, yes I find that very hard to believe.


Key word there being Palit. Im sure they make great cards but i know at least 5 people off the top of my head that dont like them having used them

Mactronix :) 
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 4:43:29 PM

mactronix said:
Key word there being Palit. Im sure they make great cards but i know at least 5 people off the top of my head that dont like them having used them

Mactronix :) 


Oh come on, do you think Palit is buying lower quality chips?

They are all the same give or take a few percent. Reaching these 900+ overclocks requires volt modding which is a black art on gpu's still, and is quite likely to end up frying your card without water cooling.

a c 130 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:06:43 PM

I would think the voltage regulation circuitry would have more to do with it than the chips themselves.

Mactronix
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:08:50 PM

Forget about the gtx 460 for a moment.
The same logic of being aware about clock speeds, especially as the gpu dies get smaller, will apply to the 6850/6870, just like it did for the 5850/5870.
Except one problem.
On the reference 6850 AMD is only giving you the enthusiast one 6 pin. Will that stop it from clocking up to its big brother ? Probably not, but it might have gone above and beyond like the 5850 does to the 5870.
I've already read rumors some AIB's will make special models of the 6850 with two six pins. Again rumor. But who would be interested in that/sarcasm !
a c 130 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:13:29 PM

I never looked at it like that notty, just another way for AMD to ensure people dont get more than they pay for.

Mactronix :) 
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:19:22 PM

A single pin will overclock past 150w, just be sure that you do it at your own risk.

That's the same with any overclocking. Take that Palit in the xbitlabs review for example. :D 
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:22:00 PM

Its a valid argument the other way that the single six pin 6850 will be more attractive/make sense to some over the dual six pin 460-768.
Those playing psu- will it be enough .
a c 130 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:25:33 PM

Yes as you say plenty have shop bought rigs with questionable PSU's, having a single PCIE cable wont be such a restriction for those people anymore.

Mactronix :) 
a c 595 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:31:03 PM

I like how they magnify the results, i.e. 1 vs. 1.3 (whatever that is referring to) is made to look like more than twice the performance. When you look closely, they have chopped off the bottom and only shown the very top of the green Nvidia bar. I really hope those marketing people at AMD are getting huge raises. They have mastered the art of data manipultation and consumer perception.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:31:27 PM

So, let's see some real comparisons. How about comparing the new 6000 series against the GTX 470/480. After all, isn't that truly what AMD is going to have to beat? Sure the GTX 460 is a more mainstream card, but if they can't prove they can beat out the GTX 480 then nVidia still wins the performance crown.

I'll wait until I see real benchmarks, not these manufacturer generated marketing slides. They're not going to show us any slides where the GTX 460 768MB (notice they used the gimp version) beats a 6000 series card.

I'm not trying to beat up on AMD at all. Just saying I want real world tests by 3rd parties.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:32:52 PM

Well look at the slides and you'll see the 6870 is 151w max power, the 6850 is 127w max.

The 6850 has less shaders, so by upping the clock speed to 6870 speeds it will stay below 150w.

Now you can overclock that 460 768mb as high as you want, but it's not going to beat a 6850@900mhz.

The most important thing here is, no OEM will want to touch the 460 768mb in comparison. That card is dead, Nvidia failed badly and should have made it a single pin solution but their perf/watt is so bad they couldn't do it.

However you try to dress it up, this is a massacre. AMD will sell 10 million+ 6850's and maintain their 90% dx11 market share in 2011.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:34:00 PM

jerreece said:
So, let's see some real comparisons. How about comparing the new 6000 series against the GTX 470/480. After all, isn't that truly what AMD is going to have to beat? Sure the GTX 460 is a more mainstream card, but if they can't prove they can beat out the GTX 480 then nVidia still wins the performance crown.

I'll wait until I see real benchmarks, not these manufacturer generated marketing slides. They're not going to show us any slides where the GTX 460 768MB (notice they used the gimp version) beats a 6000 series card.

I'm not trying to beat up on AMD at all. Just saying I want real world tests by 3rd parties.


Different market segment. Come back next month and see what Cayman does to GF100, it will be even more of a massacre than this is.

Look at the slides again btw, one is the 6850 vs the 768mb 460 and the other is the 6870 vs the 1gb 460.
a c 125 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:34:18 PM

notty22 said:
You really believe that ? Then why are articles like this written where they compare a gtx 460 against crossfired 5770's or against a 5870 ? Because its the gtx 460's hidden threats.
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/...
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/...
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/palit-ge...


Your not seeing the logic, Comparing stock Vs stock is fair, its great that the GTX460 overclocks really well, fact is not that many people overclock their GPU, alot of my friends have mid/high end GPU's and most leave them at stock or will overclock slightly (say 50mhz) I'm the only person I know (out of the people i know in real life, not people on the internet) that has volt modded a GPU... Most people just want to play games and are not interested in benchmarking.

Those articles exist because you can buy a heavily overclocked GTX460. It shows the potiental of the GTX460. I'm not arguing that, what I'm saying is that stock Vs stock is fair, or overclocked Vs overclocked.

And yes I do think the 68xx series will overclock well.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:42:35 PM

Rustyy117 said:
Your not seeing the logic, Comparing stock Vs stock is fair, its great that the GTX460 overclocks really well, fact is not that many people overclock their GPU, alot of my friends have mid/high end GPU's and most leave them at stock or will overclock slightly (say 50mhz) I'm the only person I know (out of the people i know in real life, not people on the internet) that has volt modded a GPU... Most people just want to play games and are not interested in benchmarking.

Those articles exist because you can buy a heavily overclocked GTX460. It shows the potiental of the GTX460. I'm not arguing that, what I'm saying is that stock Vs stock is fair, or overclocked Vs overclocked.

And yes I do think the 68xx series will overclock well.

Your not willing to accept the logic there can be a new definition of stock.
When the same model is released with clock speeds 175mhz apart.
You can buy various gtx 4601gb's at 850 mhz, in its stock state.
I'm sure you never mentioned buying a 5850 and overclocking it to 5870 speeds ?
Or ATI underclocking the 5970's gpu's to fit under the 300 watt atx standard ?

Which imo means the new dual gpu card will most likely be slower to anyone with a understanding of all this.
But it seems if it fits their argument, people want to believe the enthusiast is dumb.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:45:40 PM

eyefinity said:
Different market segment. Come back next month and see what Cayman does to GF100, it will be even more of a massacre than this is.

Look at the slides again btw, one is the 6850 vs the 768mb 460 and the other is the 6870 vs the 1gb 460.

Of which they used different quality settings,slide to slide, game to game, and there is no mention of resolutions.
The very definition of CHERRY PICKING.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:51:47 PM

notty22 said:
Of which they used different quality settings,slide to slide, game to game, and there is no mention of resolutions.
The very definition of CHERRY PICKING.


Yes of course, that's exactly what they both do. Remember unigine 2.5x faster slide? Or how Nvidia kept talking about Far Cry 2?

The resolution was 1920x1080, I have that on good faith from somebody who has seen all of the slides.
October 19, 2010 5:56:56 PM

jerreece said:
So, let's see some real comparisons. How about comparing the new 6000 series against the GTX 470/480. After all, isn't that truly what AMD is going to have to beat? Sure the GTX 460 is a more mainstream card, but if they can't prove they can beat out the GTX 480 then nVidia still wins the performance crown.

I'll wait until I see real benchmarks, not these manufacturer generated marketing slides. They're not going to show us any slides where the GTX 460 768MB (notice they used the gimp version) beats a 6000 series card.

I'm not trying to beat up on AMD at all. Just saying I want real world tests by 3rd parties.



These are 5750/5770 type replacement cards, not 5850/5870 replacements, those will come sometime between now and then end of the year hopefully.

So they should be price around the 180-250 mark hopefully, putting them right up against the 460.

I still think its sneaky/stupid/confusing for them to change the naming convention, it just results in confusion for most people.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:58:59 PM

eyefinity said:
Yes of course, that's exactly what they both do. Remember unigine 2.5x faster slide? Or how Nvidia kept talking about Far Cry 2?

The resolution was 1920x1080, I have that on good faith from somebody who has seen all of the slides.

I bet not, I have it on authority and labeling from other slides, they jumped from one resolution in one game, to another game tested at a extreme multi-monitor resolution.
So its a IQ quality/resolution, free for all. And yes, both sides do this.
You see the same thing in driver improvement notes, the increases are at different resolutions and varying quality settings. There can definitely be non linear/scaling trends with drivers/games/settings/Nvidia-AMD.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 5:59:42 PM

notty22 said:
I've already read rumors some AIB's will make special models of the 6850 with two six pins. Again rumor. But who would be interested in that/sarcasm !


That rumour would appear to have been confirmed in the OP.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6797/img3493m.jpg

Dual 6-pin on the Asus overvolt edition.
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 6:05:58 PM

Petey1013 said:
These are 5750/5770 type replacement cards, not 5850/5870 replacements, those will come sometime between now and then end of the year hopefully.

So they should be price around the 180-250 mark hopefully, putting them right up against the 460.

I still think its sneaky/stupid/confusing for them to change the naming convention, it just results in confusion for most people.


So you mean we have to stop giving nVidia a hard time about naming schemes? Now AMD is doing it? It would "make sense" that the 6850 would replace the 5850, you know? It irks me that companies keep redoing their naming schemes just for some fictitious marketing scheme.

Sort of how they visually tweak the graphics to make the difference between 1.0 and 1.3 look massive as someone else already mentioned.

Now, I certainly hope that the new 6000 series does beat out the Fermi cards. It would make sense that they would, because if they didn't, AMD would be in for a world of hurt. That would ultimately mean the consumer would be hurting, because the competition would come to a screeching halt until the next generation of cards.
October 19, 2010 6:09:50 PM

eyefinity said:
The resolution was 1920x1080, I have that on good faith from somebody who has seen all of the slides.


Does this source know why some slides have the same page number?
a b U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 6:18:48 PM

96Firebird said:
Does this source know why some slides have the same page number?


Well 1 of the page 16's is from Sweclockers, the other is from Chiphell.

I'm not sure why there are 2 page 6's from Chiphell though, it's probably one is a marketing slide and the other is a technical slide.
a c 125 U Graphics card
October 19, 2010 6:48:50 PM

notty22 said:
Your not willing to accept the logic there can be a new definition of stock.
When the same model is released with clock speeds 175mhz apart.
You can buy various gtx 4601gb's at 850 mhz, in its stock state.
I'm sure you never mentioned buying a 5850 and overclocking it to 5870 speeds ?
Or ATI underclocking the 5970's gpu's to fit under the 300 watt atx standard ?

Which imo means the new dual gpu card will most likely be slower to anyone with a understanding of all this.
But it seems if it fits their argument, people want to believe the enthusiast is dumb.


The GTX460's stock clock is what nvidia made the chip to run at which is 675Mhz, Not the factory overclocked speed, a GTX460 at 850Mhz is not a GTX460 in its stock state, its been facotry overclocked. Factory overclocked Vs stock isnt a fair comparision.

If people are willing to overclock then I'd recommend it, no matter who made the card, I see it as a good way to get extra performance, I recommened to my step brother that he buy a HD5850 and overclock it instead of buying a HD5870, but he brought the HD5870 as he doesnt feel comfortable overclocking a GPU.

If people buy a GTX460 at 850mhz then they dont have to overclock it themselves and in that sense it is stock, but its not a stock GTX460 because its been factory overclocked.
!