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6870 vs 460 unfair??

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Last response: in Graphics Cards
October 22, 2010 8:29:02 PM

well we all know that the 460 stock is welll deceint but where it starts to compete with the big boys is when its overclocked 900mhz - what like 980 on air

now all the tests show the 6870 beating a stock 460 but can the 6870 overclock as well cause if not then the 460 will still be the raining champ at a lower price.

More about : 6870 460 unfair

a b U Graphics card
October 22, 2010 8:33:23 PM

Umm... the 6850 beats the GTX 460 stock vs stock, and they both can overclock a good 200 MHz+ on the core, so the 6870 is irrelevant. Also almost no GTX 460s will hit 980 MHz on air. 900 MHz isn't always guaranteed on a GTX 460 Hawk even. The 6870's and the 6850's overclocking potential is still up in the air, since the user overclocks tend to be higher than the reviews show.
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October 22, 2010 8:46:01 PM

It's a win for the ECS GTX460 Black vs. Radeon 6870/6850 at full OC up until the highest resolutions, and way cheaper.

ECS GTX460 Black @ 938mhz:
CODMW2
1280x1024: 170 fps
1600x1200: 136 fps
1920x1200: 122 fps
2560x1600: 73 fps
http://www.guru3d.com/article/ecs-geforce-gtx-460-black...

HD Radeon 6870 @ 954mhz:
CODMW2
1280x1024: 153 fps
1600x1200: 133 fps
1920x1200: 122 fps
2560x1600: 89 fps
http://www.guru3d.com/article/ecs-geforce-gtx-460-black...

HD Radeon 6850 @ 897mhz:
1280x1024: 143 fps
1600x1200: 123 fps
1920x1200: 112 fps
2560x1600: 81 fps
http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-revie...
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October 22, 2010 8:47:46 PM

From what I've read (in the few reviews that bothered to OC them) the HD 6850 is a pretty capable OCer getting about 200 Mhz over stock. The HD 6870 not so much - 75-100 Mhz. A GTX 460 1GB with a maximum OC stays in the same ballpark performance wise. I like the HD 6850 - seems like a great deal at $180 and with both overclocked at maximum its not too far behind its big brother.
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October 22, 2010 8:48:10 PM

Check Anands review, they used a 675mhz gtx 460 and a 850mhz model.
The 850mhz model equals or beats the 6870 performance.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3987/amds-radeon-6870-685...
Yes then the AMD card, could o/c some, its seems not that much ?
The evga ftw , might go to 920. Most likely 890-900.
The 6870's are 40 dollars more than 1gb 460's. We will see what happens in two weeks.
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October 22, 2010 8:54:48 PM

17seconds said:
It's a win for the ECS GTX460 Black vs. Radeon 6870 at full OC up until the highest resolutions, and way cheaper.

ECS GTX460 Black @ 938mhz:
CODMW2

That is COMPLETELY biased. MW2 is a very nVidia favored game.

2245015,6,491591 said:
Check Anands review, they used a 675mhz gtx 460 and a 850mhz model.
The 850mhz model equals or beats the STOCK 6870 performance
[/quote]
said:


That game also favors nVidia, remember these cards will trade blows.

Like this:




EXCT.

But an extremely overclocked GTX 460 matches a 6870 at stock, but the 6870 has another 100 MHz in it at least.
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October 22, 2010 9:01:52 PM

I dont know about other places but in the UK the pricing favours Nvidia at the moment. A decent 460 is about £30 cheaper than a 6870.

Mactronix :) 
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October 22, 2010 9:16:43 PM

So far the 6870 is only getting an additional 54mhz. Apparently, voltage tweaking is not an option yet.
"As you can see the increased clock did not offer that much extra performance, we see this quite a bit with high-end ATI products."
http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-revie...
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October 22, 2010 9:30:16 PM

mactronix said:
I dont know about other places but in the UK the pricing favours Nvidia at the moment. A decent 460 is about £30 cheaper than a 6870.

Mactronix :) 

6870 is bound to not OC so well, 900Mhz stock is pretty high. What you should wait (and compares with the 460) is the custom (eg.voltmodding, VRM, custom fan) HD6850s that should hit 1000Mhz.

Its still launch-day after all, and theres already a dual-fan Gibabyte in the US already for only $180.
I'm actually looking forwards to the ASUS 6850 DirectCU, or some Powercolor PCS+ with a Zalman cooler.
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October 22, 2010 9:42:57 PM

Timop said:
I'm actually looking forwards to the ASUS 6850 DirectCU...

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/Radeon_HD_6850_...
The fan is real quiet, and:
"The overclocks of our card are 945 MHz core (20% overclock) and 1165 MHz Memory (17% overclock). Both overclocks are phenomenal and show that AMD has mastered the 40 nm production process. Such an overclocking potential enables willing users to buy the cheaper HD 6850 and overclock it to HD 6870 performance levels." "The actual 3D performance gained from overclocking is 16.2%."

AND



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October 22, 2010 9:46:14 PM

17seconds said:
So far the 6870 is only getting an additional 54mhz. Apparently, voltage tweaking is not an option yet.
"As you can see the increased clock did not offer that much extra performance, we see this quite a bit with high-end ATI products."
http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-revie...


I've seen them get over 1GHz with voltage. There is also one shaky source that shows a 6870 at 1200 MHz on the core. While I don't know how stable that is, for it to boot at that is impressive. You also have to remember that reviewers never tend to discover the full overclocking potential. We also haven't seen production models yet.
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October 22, 2010 9:52:41 PM

AMW1011 said:
I've seen them get over 1GHz with voltage. There is also one shaky source that shows a 6870 at 1200 MHz on the core. While I don't know how stable that is, for it to boot at that is impressive. You also have to remember that reviewers never tend to discover the full overclocking potential. We also haven't seen production models yet.

Yeah, apparently Guru3d couldn't get voltage tweaking to work on Afterburner, but I'm assuming Asus, which seems to always include the voltage tweaking option, will, as will others.
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October 22, 2010 10:01:13 PM

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October 22, 2010 10:09:04 PM

Why are people using Anands benchmarks for proof of something? If any review was a total sellout that was clearly it.

Here's one where the overclocked Asus 6850 races way past a gtx 470.


Overclocking is fine as an extra, but no more than talk about power and heat. The further you get from the base clocks, the less likely any card will reach them. And before you say "lots of people have shown their 460 gtx at 900mhz+ core", I'd like to remind you that most people who failed to get their cards that high don't brag about it.

And xbitlabs killed their palit sonic at 900mhz. Overclocking is risky business on gpu's - they are a lot more volatile than cpu's.
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October 22, 2010 10:09:56 PM

Yes it is a bit unfair since nVidia lowered the 460 prices :D . If they hadn't, then I would say totally fair. I think it's fair to compare the 460 OC cards to the 6870 since factory overclocked cards carry a premium making them come closer in price to the 6870 and seem to trade blows with the 6870 (though the 6870 seems to win of the 460 FTW more often than not). The 6850 compares better on price to the stock 460s. I say ATI has a winner :D .
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October 22, 2010 10:28:52 PM

eyefinity said:


And xbitlabs killed their palit sonic at 900mhz. Overclocking is risky business on gpu's - they are a lot more volatile than cpu's.


You have a link or proof of this. I've read the article and I've read many forum threads about this review ?

This is a scary temperature, from such a small die,
HIS Radeon HD 6870 1 GB a 8% o/c ?
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6870/3...
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October 22, 2010 10:55:37 PM

notty22 said:
You have a link or proof of this. I've read the article and I've read many forum threads about this review ?

This is a scary temperature, from such a small die,http://tpucdn.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6870/images/temp.gif
HIS Radeon HD 6870 1 GB a 8% o/c ?
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6870/3...


Based on what? Fermi's can take huge thermal numbers because "nVidia built them to", but because the die is small, these can't take sub 90c temps?
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October 22, 2010 11:00:51 PM

unfair ???? fanboy thread I hope the 460 gets cheaper or I might end up with a 6870
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October 23, 2010 5:31:57 PM

We also have to remember that the subsequent drivers coming for the 6xxx line will boost performance considerably. From what I've heard, they will be getting them right this time (unlike the latest, terrible drivers for the 5xxx line).
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October 23, 2010 5:50:51 PM

10.10 has already seemed to do a lot of good. 5-10% perf increases in quite a few games, fixed overscan issues since 10.8, fixed a few other issues, MLAA for 5xxx. Makes me think AMD has a competent driver team out now. BTW, 6850>460, if you want me to explain, you will get a long post that might as well be stickied for all NV fanboys to see, or you can just take my word for it :D 
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October 23, 2010 7:36:21 PM

I don't know what the hubbub is all about. A 460 is $200 right now on newegg, $220 for some really nice factory oc'd options. A 6870 is $240-260. The 6870 is about 10% better avg performance for 10% more money. I feel both these cards have very similar performance to dollar ratios, the only question is do you need the better performing card and will you pay a bit more for it?

All these new cards really did was drive the price down in general on all gpus. A few months ago a good gtx 460 was $260. 5850s were over $300. You can get that level of performance now for close to $200. Doesn't matter which card you choose, just be happy the consumer is benefiting so much now.
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October 24, 2010 9:26:08 AM

ms5555 said:
I don't know what the hubbub is all about. A 460 is $200 right now on newegg, $220 for some really nice factory oc'd options. A 6870 is $240-260. The 6870 is about 10% better avg performance for 10% more money. I feel both these cards have very similar performance to dollar ratios, the only question is do you need the better performing card and will you pay a bit more for it?

All these new cards really did was drive the price down in general on all gpus. A few months ago a good gtx 460 was $260. 5850s were over $300. You can get that level of performance now for close to $200. Doesn't matter which card you choose, just be happy the consumer is benefiting so much now.


I totally agree but you cant give AMD the credit for the prices. The 460 was priced a lot lower than a 5850 and had the performance to match or beat that card so AMD are responding to Nvidia is all.
Nearly everyone excepts that AMD cards could have been cheaper already but they had market share so could set the price as they wanted. Nvidia holed that with the 460 and forced AMD to price these cards as competitively as they did.

im not saying AMD haven't done a great job with these cards and credit where its due, which i why i wanted to point out that AMD don't really deserve pricing credit.

Mactronix :) 
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October 24, 2010 9:51:17 AM

mactronix said:
I totally agree but you cant give AMD the credit for the prices. The 460 was priced a lot lower than a 5850 and had the performance to match or beat that card so AMD are responding to Nvidia is all.
Nearly everyone excepts that AMD cards could have been cheaper already but they had market share so could set the price as they wanted. Nvidia holed that with the 460 and forced AMD to price these cards as competitively as they did.

im not saying AMD haven't done a great job with these cards and credit where its due, which i why i wanted to point out that AMD don't really deserve pricing credit.

Mactronix :) 


The 460 cannot match or beat the 5850. On price/performance it was probably better, but in no way did it have the performance.

The problem with AMD's pricing was they were still selling everything they made. One could blame Nvidia for taking up more of TSMC's wafer allocation then dumping cards, however you look at it AMD did the only sensible thing which was sell the cards at their value. If they weren't worth it, they must be sitting on a huge amount of unsold 5800's, right?

On the other hand, Nvidia slashed prices on the gtx 460 over the past couple of months, then again on release of the 6800's. They also slashed prices on the gtx 470. I suppose this is all to Nvidia's credit too yeah, it had nothing to do with AMD releasing faster cards at much lower prices? And guess what? Newegg prices show the 6850 is cheaper than the slower gtx 460 1gb.

Your constant refusal to see the facts on this matter while inventing your own storyline is quite tiresome mactronix.
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October 24, 2010 10:48:14 AM

eyefinity said:
The 460 cannot match or beat the 5850. On price/performance it was probably better, but in no way did it have the performance.

The problem with AMD's pricing was they were still selling everything they made. One could blame Nvidia for taking up more of TSMC's wafer allocation then dumping cards, however you look at it AMD did the only sensible thing which was sell the cards at their value. If they weren't worth it, they must be sitting on a huge amount of unsold 5800's, right?

On the other hand, Nvidia slashed prices on the gtx 460 over the past couple of months, then again on release of the 6800's. They also slashed prices on the gtx 470. I suppose this is all to Nvidia's credit too yeah, it had nothing to do with AMD releasing faster cards at much lower prices? And guess what? Newegg prices show the 6850 is cheaper than the slower gtx 460 1gb.

Your constant refusal to see the facts on this matter while inventing your own storyline is quite tiresome mactronix.



You know there are loads of reviews that show you are wrong and you know it as do other forum users so why post it ?
What are you getting your knickers in a twist about ? I never said it was AMD's fault the 5 series was priced like it was. As I said they had market share so set the prices.
Its only this segment anyway im not for a moment saying the 5850 was expensive because it wasnt it was a huge leap forward in performance. Nvidia did the same back with the 8800 series and i wasn't jumping with joy at them back then either, in fact if anything Nvidia abused the position to a higher degree.
All im saying is that its down to Nvidia that prices are where they are. Or are you seriously telling me that the 5 series cards would have dropped like they have and these cards would have come out at the price point that have with out the 460 being in the mix ?


Mactronix :) 
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October 24, 2010 11:55:16 AM

mactronix said:
You know there are loads of reviews that show you are wrong and you know it as do other forum users so why post it ?
What are you getting your knickers in a twist about ? I never said it was AMD's fault the 5 series was priced like it was. As I said they had market share so set the prices.
Its only this segment anyway im not for a moment saying the 5850 was expensive because it wasnt it was a huge leap forward in performance. Nvidia did the same back with the 8800 series and i wasn't jumping with joy at them back then either, in fact if anything Nvidia abused the position to a higher degree.
All im saying is that its down to Nvidia that prices are where they are. Or are you seriously telling me that the 5 series cards would have dropped like they have and these cards would have come out at the price point that have with out the 460 being in the mix ?


Mactronix :) 


When did the 5800's drop in price? They barely moved due to the 460. One look at scan shows the 5850 around the £210 mark and the 5870 around the £300 mark. My mate bought a 5870 for £295 about 6 months ago.

I don't see where the 460 made any difference to 5800's prices. You're seeing what you want to see mactronix.
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October 24, 2010 12:34:18 PM

eyefinity said:
When did the 5800's drop in price? They barely moved due to the 460. One look at scan shows the 5850 around the £210 mark and the 5870 around the £300 mark. My mate bought a 5870 for £295 about 6 months ago.

I don't see where the 460 made any difference to 5800's prices. You're seeing what you want to see mactronix.



Why do you insist on tyring to make yourself look bad by dragging out a straight and correct statement that Nvidia started the reduction of prices in the mainstream performance into an argument by trying to some how say nvidia have a time machine or a working crystal ball or something ?
You said
"On the other hand, Nvidia slashed prices on the gtx 460 over the past couple of months, then again on release of the 6800's. They also slashed prices on the gtx 470. I suppose this is all to Nvidia's credit too yeah, it had nothing to do with AMD releasing faster cards at much lower prices? And guess what? Newegg prices show the 6850 is cheaper than the slower gtx 460 1gb."

What so Nvidia dropped the price of the 460 a couple of months ago because they were reacting to the price AMD released the 6 series at [:lectrocrew:1] do me a favour :pt1cable:  Dont try and say other wise thats exactly what you posted.
" I suppose this is all to Nvidia's credit too yeah, it had nothing to do with AMD releasing faster cards at much lower prices?"
Um yes actually it had nothing to do with AMD releasing faster cards at much lower prices, physically impossible in fact [:mousemonkey:5]

I dont need to try and justify myself to you and wont bother anymore your so blinkered and your facts are so far off that its laughable. You insist on posting incorrect facts with no links to back up the facts..

If you think im being harsh then try the following.

1. Post proof that the 460 cant match or beat a 5850 because i sure as hell can post loads of proof it can.
2. Post proof that the 5 series didnt drop in price again i can post release prices and reviews listing prices and bitching about how high they are.

Thing is though dont ask me to post them. Unwritten rule here YOU called me out so you prove your right. Thats how it works my friend.

Mactronix :) 

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October 24, 2010 12:48:15 PM

its important to state this "460" you are talking about, is 460 (OC, 850MHZ).

This is one of the problem that anandtech pissed me off. I have never seen any reviews of a general launch of a new product using an OC card.

It bows to the pressure from nVidia and confuses users.

there is nothing unfair in 6870 vs 460 (OC, 850MHz) comparison, they are priced the same, and performs the same.

but anandtech's review mislead people into thinking they can get any 460 for $180 and get similar performance of 6870.

anadtech is sold to NV this time for sure.
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October 24, 2010 1:01:28 PM

mactronix said:
1. Post proof that the 460 cant match or beat a 5850 because i sure as hell can post loads of proof it can.


http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=25391&page=1...

Would you say that a 5830 could match or beat the gtx 460 1gb? If you look at those stats, it's obvious that the gap between the 5830 and 460 1gb is about the same as the gap between the 460 1gb and 5850. Nobody says the 5830 matches or beats the 460 1gb, do they?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3809/nvidias-geforce-gtx-...

The 5850 beats the 460 1gb in 9/10 benchmarks. HAWX (Ubisoft) is the only reverse, and lets be honest that doesn't count as Ubisoft is nothing more than Nvidia's unofficial games company.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-gf1...

5850 is faster again, now you're going to say "oh look the 460 wins a couple", to which I'll respond "oh look it loses to the 5830 in a couple too". You don't see me or anybody else claiming that the 5830 is on par or faster than the gtx 460 1gb though do you?

Only Nvidia fanboys believe that the 460 1gb is as fast as the 5850.


Quote:
2. Post proof that the 5 series didnt drop in price again i can post release prices and reviews listing prices and bitching about how high they are.


I just did? You can see the prices on scan have barely changed and that's with the 6800's released too.

Quote:

Thing is though dont ask me to post them. Unwritten rule here YOU called me out so you prove your right. Thats how it works my friend.

Mactronix :) 


Err no, if you are going to make any statement first then you are the one who needs to have proof. That's how it works. You don't say "I am god", I say "my ass" then you say "ok prove I'm not". That's not how it works anywhere. You make the initial statement, somebody disagrees, you prove it or you retract it. I've shown my proof to disprove your first statement because that was easy, the benchmarks show it clearly.
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October 24, 2010 1:04:30 PM





Ok, not saying i agree with eyefinity, i generally make it a policy not to, but he is a LITTLE right, stock vs stock (they both actually OC bout the same btw), 5850 is about 10% faster. However, the 460 has 5-8% better performance per $. This means they were using about $260 5850's. When they dropped to $240 and below, they actually became the better deal, however im talking they both were dead even, 5850 gets a little better performance, more at higher res, 460 has better tess, 5850 uses a lot less power and heat, especially when you push the 460 to reach it, and so on and so forth. All said and done, you couldnt really go wrong with either one. Now, Mac, you say AMD's pricing isnt that spectacular? Just verifying. Well if you do, well i disagree. Nvidia just released one of the best cards overall, best price/performance ratio card since quite some time, the 460. Then they lower prices $10-30 on them at the release of 6000. Now, put that all together, and its a VERY nice feat the fact that the AMD cards are better values than their respective competitor. Give me a 6870 over a 470. Give me a 6850 over either a 768 or 460. They are just better values. Overclocking should improve once we get voltage, and overall performance should improve quite a bit once the drivers they were built on are released. So its kinda like hitting a homerun after and grandslam. Nvidia set the bar high, AMD went right over it, so they dont get as much shock and awe. If the releases switched place, 68xx before the 460's, then nobody would think the 460 was a good value. Just my opinion.
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October 24, 2010 1:17:11 PM

Id Annand had highlighted the oceed card, to show the difference, that it was a oceed card wouldve helped
Weve all read the stories of nVidia trying to get the official pricing of the brand new, never before seen 68xx series cards pricing, so they could last minute slash their prices on their overpriced cards, to match ATIs new cards

While I'll agree, similar pricing for similar perf is the right thing, and competition forcing prices down as a good thing, I dont see having to once again drop your pricing, playing catchup once again, and using a more complex, larger, costlier card to match the competition as a good thing, tho, the right thing, or your entire lineup goes up in smoke
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October 24, 2010 1:21:52 PM

anandtech didn't mention the correct price of the OC card they tested even once.

furthermore, in the last page of the review, they call the OC card having a $30 premium, and then claimed the 460 is $180.

effectively, anandtech was misleading buyers into thinking the OC card is $210, while in fact its $240
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October 24, 2010 4:21:24 PM

ares1214 said:
http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Colorful/iGame_GTX_460_1_GB/images/perfdollar.gif
http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Colorful/iGame_GTX_460_1_GB/images/perfdollar_1920.gif
http://tpucdn.com/reviews/Colorful/iGame_GTX_460_1_GB/images/perfrel_1920.gif

Ok, not saying i agree with eyefinity, i generally make it a policy not to, but he is a LITTLE right, stock vs stock (they both actually OC bout the same btw), 5850 is about 10% faster. However, the 460 has 5-8% better performance per $. This means they were using about $260 5850's. When they dropped to $240 and below, they actually became the better deal, however im talking they both were dead even, 5850 gets a little better performance, more at higher res, 460 has better tess, 5850 uses a lot less power and heat, especially when you push the 460 to reach it, and so on and so forth. All said and done, you couldnt really go wrong with either one. Now, Mac, you say AMD's pricing isnt that spectacular? Just verifying. Well if you do, well i disagree. Nvidia just released one of the best cards overall, best price/performance ratio card since quite some time, the 460. Then they lower prices $10-30 on them at the release of 6000. Now, put that all together, and its a VERY nice feat the fact that the AMD cards are better values than their respective competitor. Give me a 6870 over a 470. Give me a 6850 over either a 768 or 460. They are just better values. Overclocking should improve once we get voltage, and overall performance should improve quite a bit once the drivers they were built on are released. So its kinda like hitting a homerun after and grandslam. Nvidia set the bar high, AMD went right over it, so they dont get as much shock and awe. If the releases switched place, 68xx before the 460's, then nobody would think the 460 was a good value. Just my opinion.



What im saying ares is this.
ms5555 posted "All these new cards really did was drive the price down in general on all gpus" The fact is the 460 was the first card to arrive at this level of performance and price. Its as simple as that its simple fact. I don't see why eyefinity ... (well actually i do know why but...) Anyway thats it sum total just correcting the perception that some how AMD are the ones who set the bar here.
I would bet anything you liked that if there was no 460 then the 5850 wouldn't have dropped the £40/50 it has and neither would the 5830, i would also wager that the 6 series would all be £20-30 higher. eyefinity is even trying to claim there have been no price drops. the 5850 was £245 -250 for most of its life.

460 cant match or beat a 5850 yea right.
http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/18 OOO look at all those 460's on teh performance table at the bottom of the page. Wheres teh 5850 thats right below all of them. :kaola: 
And to clarify no im not saying AMD have done a bad job here at all just simply that they don't deserve the credit for the performance level at this price point is all. They are just reacting to 460 pricing as i stated above.
What i posted earlier,

"I totally agree but you cant give AMD the credit for the prices. The 460 was priced a lot lower than a 5850 and had the performance to match or beat that card so AMD are responding to Nvidia is all.
Nearly everyone excepts that AMD cards could have been cheaper already but they had market share so could set the price as they wanted. Nvidia holed that with the 460 and forced AMD to price these cards as competitively as they did.


im not saying AMD haven't done a great job with these cards and credit where its due, which i why i wanted to point out that AMD don't really deserve pricing credit."


Mactronix :) 



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Mactronix :) 
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October 24, 2010 4:41:48 PM

The test shows both the 68xx and the 5850.
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October 24, 2010 4:55:27 PM

strangestranger said:
The test shows both the 68xx and the 5850.


Yes however I never said the 460 is better than the 5850 full stop. Or that the 5850 dosent beat the 460 some of the time. What I said was the 460 was priced lower than a 5850 and had the performance to match or beat that card. Thats true as the Guru 3d results I posted prove.
Im sure there are many results that can put a 5850 ahead of a 460 but it only needs one review on one benchmark to show a 460 with a lead over a 5850 to make what I said true and there are a few more than one out there.

Mactronix :) 
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October 24, 2010 5:06:27 PM

mactronix said:
Yes however I never said the 460 is better than the 5850 full stop. Or that the 5850 dosent beat the 460 some of the time. What I said was the 460 was priced lower than a 5850 and had the performance to match or beat that card. Thats true as the Guru 3d results I posted prove.
Im sure there are many results that can put a 5850 ahead of a 460 but it only needs one review on one benchmark to show a 460 with a lead over a 5850 to make what I said true and there are a few more than one out there.

Mactronix :) 


I'm not sure if this is intentional Mac, but your making it sound like the GTX 460 beats the 5850 as much of the time or more than the 5850 beats the GTX 460. Atleast that is how I'm reading it, and that is plain false. The 5850 wins the majority of titles.
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October 24, 2010 5:07:14 PM

Ok so all that needs to happen is a win in any benchmark, then it's the same or faster?



I hereby declare, by Mactronix's reasoning, that the 5850 is the same or faster than the gtx 480, and the 5830 is the same or faster than the gtx 470.

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October 24, 2010 5:32:51 PM

AMW1011 said:
I'm not sure if this is intentional Mac, but your making it sound like the GTX 460 beats the 5850 as much of the time or more than the 5850 beats the GTX 460. Atleast that is how I'm reading it, and that is plain false. The 5850 wins the majority of titles.


Not my intention at all. Just saying it can and does.
Its more than the odd freak result as well and eyefinity knows it. I said a 460 has the performance to match or beat a 5850 thats a fact it can and does in a lot of cases. Yes its not true 100% of the time but i never claimed or meant to imply that.
Yes it was impetious of me to sugest that a single result matters but even thats been taken stupidly out of context.
Yes it was a silly thing to say and i admit that but then posting a benchmark and saying that makes this card better than that card by my reconing is just as silly. I never said at any point that the 460 is better than a 5850 i said it has the performance to match or beat it.
Mactronix :) 
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October 24, 2010 5:42:53 PM





Sorry, couldnt resist
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October 24, 2010 6:42:44 PM

mactronix said:
Not my intention at all. Just saying it can and does.
Its more than the odd freak result as well and eyefinity knows it. I said a 460 has the performance to match or beat a 5850 thats a fact it can and does in a lot of cases. Yes its not true 100% of the time but i never claimed or meant to imply that.
Yes it was impetious of me to sugest that a single result matters but even thats been taken stupidly out of context.
Yes it was a silly thing to say and i admit that but then posting a benchmark and saying that makes this card better than that card by my reconing is just as silly. I never said at any point that the 460 is better than a 5850 i said it has the performance to match or beat it.
Mactronix :) 


Alright, I had a feeling thats what you meant, but the wording was sketchy. To make everything easier, I'll reword your point in a way that's impossible to misunderstand:

The GTX 460 has the ability to beat or match the 5850 in some titles despite it being generally slower in the majority of titles.

Isn't it interesting how being polite and not jumping to conclusions can really make these things so much simpler?
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October 24, 2010 6:44:11 PM

AMW1011 said:
Alright, I had a feeling thats what you meant, but the wording was sketchy. To make everything easier, I'll reword your point in a way that's impossible to misunderstand:

The GTX 460 has the ability to beat or match the 5850 in some titles despite it being generally slower in the majority of titles.

Isn't it interesting how being polite and not jumping to conclusions can really make these things so much simpler?


Indeed.

Mactronix :) 
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October 24, 2010 8:43:53 PM

The title you showed was far cry 2, TWIMTBP game :lol:  You have to admit, overall, 5850 is faster than the 460. Im sure in something like HAWX 2 a GTS 450 ties a 5850 too, is the GTS 450 faster than the 5850? Of course not. A freak win doesnt constitute a title of being faster. If you were just proving eyefinity wrong through technicality, fine, but 5850>460 in overall performance.

@ Eyefinity. Well...yeah, i disagree with you too, as usual. The 5830 came out and lets be honest, it was a shell of a card, and screw up, too weak, too expensive. Granted, it wasnt an absolute failiure because even though they screwed that price point up, Nvidia didnt have anything in any price point at the time :lol:  The 460 comes along, drops the 5830 in price by quite a decent bit. Stays a little longer on the market, 5850 prices drop atleast $20, and always being able to find a $250 or below 5850 within a month or 2 of 6xxx. 68xx was basically made with dethroning the 460 in mind, not much else. If there was no 460, 5850 would be $300, and 6870 would be $279 at best. So the 460 was very much so responsible for just about all of this happening the way it happened. The reason Mac may not be giving as much credit as other is reasonable. 460 blew the 5830 out of the water, and opened up this price point. 6850 and 6870 beat the 460 and 470 in price/performance respectively true, but they didnt do nearly as much as the 460 did. Like i said, home run after a grandslam.
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October 24, 2010 8:53:52 PM

No
With this reasoning, you have to start at the top, then go from there
Currently, its ATI at the top, which then reflects the next card and so on, so saying nVidia drives the pricing is wrong, otherwise, we wouldnt have seen the drops on the 470 like we have, since its a smidgin better but too large a gap to be competitive
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October 24, 2010 9:10:43 PM

The 6850 was not made with "dethroning" the 460 in mind. That chip was designed and in early production before the 460 was released.

As for the 460 blowing the 5830 out of the water? Let's put that theory to the test.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-gf1...

In 6 games tested, the 5830 beats the 460 in 2 (Crysis and AvP). Now lets look at the ones it lost.

Dirt2 - It loses with No AA but wins one with AA, and is very close in others.
BC2 - It loses at 1680x1050 but wins at 2560x1600. This one is a loss because it "loses" by a tiny margin at 1920x1200.
Just Cause 2 - loses all but is very close at max resolution.

It loses heavily in MW2...what a shock wonder where we've seen that one before?

So..2 wins, 3 narrow defeats where it actually "won" at certain resolutions. This is it being "blown out of the water"? :lol: 


The 460 1gb just beat the 5830 and was $20 more on release.

The 6850 has a more convincing win vs the 460 1gb, and cost less on release.

Once again the facts tell the real story, instead of some imagined scenario that you believe because of seeing months and months of overclocked 460's easily beat a stock 5830.
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October 24, 2010 9:58:23 PM

So you are saying you would rather of have gotten a 5830 than a 460?
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October 24, 2010 10:02:11 PM

ares1214 said:
The title you showed was far cry 2, TWIMTBP game :lol:  You have to admit, overall, 5850 is faster than the 460. Im sure in something like HAWX 2 a GTS 450 ties a 5850 too, is the GTS 450 faster than the 5850? Of course not. A freak win doesnt constitue a title of being faster. If you were just proving eyefinity wrong thru technicality, fine, but 5850>460 in overall performance.

@ Eyefinity. Well...yeah, i disagree with you too, as usual. The 5830 came out and lets be honest, it was a shell of a card, and screw up, too weak, too expensive. Granted, it wasnt an absolute failiure because even though they screwed that price point up, Nvidia didnt have anything in any price point at the time :lol:  The 460 comes along, drops the 5830 in price by quite a decent bit. Stays a little longer on the market, 5850 prices drop atleast $20, and always being able to find a $250 or below 5850 within a month or 2 of 6xxx. 68xx was basically made with dethroning the 460 in mind, not much else. If there was no 460, 5850 would be $300, and 6870 would be $279 at best. So the 460 was very much so responsible for just about all of this happening the way it happened. The reason Mac may not be giving as much credit as other is reasonable. 460 blew the 5830 out of the water, and opened up this price point. 6850 and 6870 beat the 460 and 470 in price/performance respectively true, but they didnt do nearly as much as the 460 did. Like i said, home run after a grandslam.


First paragraph just about nails it.

Mactronix :) 
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October 24, 2010 10:03:55 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
No
With this reasoning, you have to start at the top, then go from there
Currently, its ATI at the top, which then reflects the next card and so on, so saying nVidia drives the pricing is wrong, otherwise, we wouldnt have seen the drops on the 470 like we have, since its a smidgin better but too large a gap to be competitive


If there was no 460, do you think a 6850 would be sub-$200?
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