fine art of refining and alchemy

Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

i need to produce lots of fuel and minerals in a game with very rare
resources. i have 2 merlins and 2 refinery ships. 1 merlin is parked
above a bovinoid. i have several planets that have 3000- 5000 supplies
and several planets with 100-300 of the minerals. if i would move the
merlins or refinery ships i would tow them with neutronic fuel
carriers.
here comes my question.
What is the most fuel effective way to make minerals and fuel? gather
the supplies and minerals and ferry them to some important top bases
and transmute the supplies there to minerals and then to fuel, or tow
the merlin and refinery from planet to planet and refine the resources
at the planets and send out freighters and NFCs to bring the minerals
to the bases?
my territory is not in immediate danger to be overrun my enemies,
cloackers, surpriseminefields etc..
9 answers Last reply
More about fine refining alchemy
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    rgronwald@hotmail.com wrote:
    > What is the most fuel effective way to make minerals and fuel? gather
    > the supplies and minerals and ferry them to some important top bases
    > and transmute the supplies there to minerals and then to fuel, or tow
    > the merlin and refinery from planet to planet and refine the resources
    > at the planets and send out freighters and NFCs to bring the minerals
    > to the bases?

    Not entirely sure whether that's what you wanted to know, but since the
    alchemy "outputs" are lighter than the "inputs", it obviously makes more
    sense to carry those around. I.e., don't carry 2700S - carry the
    resulting 300T+300D+300M instead. Since alchemy happens before movement,
    you can load heavy stuff onto the Merlin and tow or move it, you'll be
    billed only the fuel for carrying the result.

    Having said that, it mostly depends on your style / tactic / other
    situation whether you carry the Merlin around or have some freighters
    fetch the results. The Merlin may be heavier and burn more fuel, but on
    the other hand it's faster to have the Merlin with the stuff *here*
    *now* instead of having to move stuff onto a freighter first.


    Stefan
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    Thanks that was my question and the answer sounds satisfieing.
    Nevertheless i was just wondering whether it is better to tow a merlin
    mass 920 and a refinery ship mass 712 around the worlds 2 ships and 2
    NFCs or tow some super transport freighters to collect 2600 supp and
    bring them to the refinery planets.
    and as i am bad in maths and i am sure that i forget some of the
    factors that would go into such a calculation and because it is
    possible that some1 already was facing the same question i thought,
    that i will just post it here. maybe others already simmed it out what
    will be better.
    factors will be :
    -number of NFCs that mus be used to tow merlin/refinery or STF.
    -mass of merlin/refinery in contrast to mass of supplies and STF
    - sideeffect of having lots of minerals at many planets during the
    refinery process. thus possibilty of building starbases at the planets
    that still do not have one.

    many of the supplies will be needed to be made into minerals and then
    into fuel... and the fuel will have to be brought to the frontline.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    Op 2005-02-22, rgronwald@hotmail.com schreef <rgronwald@hotmail.com>:
    > -mass of merlin/refinery in contrast to mass of supplies and STF

    Some general remarks.

    In the end game every production starbase should have its own
    Merlin. It should usually be at that base or above a good bovinoid
    planet.

    As a rule of thumb: don't send a Merlin to a planet unless that has at
    least one full load of supplies to convert. I can't show you the math
    for that rule, but it sounds about right to me.

    That rule of thumb would mean that you usually keep the Merlin at one
    place and use freighters to ehhhm... supply it with supplies. Large
    Freighter is best.

    In Plist games the Merlin has a mass of 390 Kton. This makes it a good
    option to let it visit planets. With cheap Enerpsi Drives it could
    even move around reasonably fast on its own.

    I have never built many Neutronic Refineries. But they are great for a
    ride along all those little planets that you never visit but that have
    been quietly amassing some minerals and supplies. It's also good for
    sending to that newly conquered group of planets where the enemy has
    beamed up say all molybdenum.

    --
    Maurits van Rees | http://maurits.vanrees.org/ [Dutch/Nederlands]
    "The question of whether computers can think is like the question of
    whether submarines can swim." - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    rgronwald@hotmail.com wrote:

    >Thanks that was my question and the answer sounds satisfieing.
    >Nevertheless i was just wondering whether it is better to tow a merlin
    >mass 920 and a refinery ship mass 712 around the worlds 2 ships and 2
    >NFCs or tow some super transport freighters to collect 2600 supp and
    >bring them to the refinery planets.
    I have sometimes thought about this matter too. If you want to be *sure*
    about having the most efficient way you will have to do the 'math'. The
    easiest way to do it is to calculate how much fuel it takes to move the
    Merlin to the planet, convert and then either carry the stuff back to
    original place or to move to the next planet and send freighters to carry
    the stuff back to where it's needed. Also time could be important if you
    haven't got enough ships to convert all the supplies you produce.

    From my own experience and educated guesses, I would say that specially if
    you have two loads of supplies on a planet, it's cheaper to send a Merlin
    there, then haul back the minerals closer to base and then convert the fuel
    there, as you need so much less supplies for fuel, while it takes lots of
    fuel to haul 2700 supplies anywhere. If you have only 2700 supplies I think
    it's about the same if you haul supplies to Merlin instead, at least the
    extra fuel you need is not much.

    In most games however, I've had the need to do things simple way and I've
    often had plenty of freighters, so in early game I've had a Merlin at HW
    and hauled supplies there from planets within 100-162 LYs and the rest
    planets I've left alone, then later on I've moved the Merlins to bovi
    planets and hauled additional supplies there from neighbour planets.
    Usually I've had only one to three Merlins so it has been enough to just
    haul little more additional supplies to the bovi planets or to HW to keep
    the Merlin converting

    I guess it depends much of your playing style. My playing style means
    having lots of resources at HW and I've needed some minerals every turn,
    instead of lots of minerals at lesser rate.
    --
    There are 11 type of people in the world.
    Those who understand binary, those who don't, and those who are.
    www.akseli.net/~akseli/vgap
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    > I have never built many Neutronic Refineries. But they are great for a
    > ride along all those little planets that you never visit but that have
    > been quietly amassing some minerals and supplies. It's also good for
    > sending to that newly conquered group of planets where the enemy has
    > beamed up say all molybdenum.

    Well. In do so in a current game, in wich i controll ~95 Planets. I've 4
    neutronics (you need this ships if you play the Rebels) and 6 Merlins. 2 of
    my offensive fleets has a Neutronics in the group for create fuel at new
    captured planets wich have minerals. Because my main enemie is the Borg,
    wich is able to chunnel all minerals away, i've also Merlins in the 2th or
    3th row.

    I do not think, all bases need a own Merlin... i would need 50 Merlins in
    the game then.
    I personally do organise my economie the way, that i build some independet
    economic zones with bases and own LDSF's. Some extra LDSFs has the job to
    feed minerals/mc between this zones. In this game, i had 7 bases, all with
    build orders for Rushes as we reach the shiplimit... but only 2 Merlins and
    no Neutronic.

    After the shiplimit:
    a zone has 3-10 planets, -165 ly around, 10-XX turns later, i've a lot
    supplys here and for me, it makes sense to bring in a Merlin instead to
    bring the Supplys to a Merlin and then the Minerals back.

    I do it this way and nearly all Planets from all zones has bases and rush
    build orders now.

    My fazit: early you have to bring supplys to the Merlins... in the mid/end
    game it's some time better to send the Merlin to the Supplys. It also
    depends at wich place you need the minerals.

    harry
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    Maurits van Rees wrote:
    > Op 2005-02-22, rgronwald@hotmail.com schreef <rgronwald@hotmail.com>:
    >>-mass of merlin/refinery in contrast to mass of supplies and STF
    >
    > Some general remarks.
    >
    > In the end game every production starbase should have its own
    > Merlin. It should usually be at that base or above a good bovinoid
    > planet.

    I wouldn't say one per starbase. If you cannot keep them busy, save the
    ship slots for something better. Since the best Bovi only gives you 1500
    Sup/turn but the Merlin processes 3000, I would probably not build so
    much :)

    > As a rule of thumb: don't send a Merlin to a planet unless that has at
    > least one full load of supplies to convert. I can't show you the math
    > for that rule, but it sounds about right to me.

    Depends. If you got the time, you'll save fuel by doing that. It all
    depends on the situation. The point being that carrying around 3000
    supplies simply costs much more fuel than carrying around 1000 minerals.
    On the other hand, your freighters probably got better engines than your
    Merlins.


    Stefan
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    Op 2005-02-23, Stefan Reuther schreef <stefan.news@arcor.de>:
    > Maurits van Rees wrote:
    >> In the end game every production starbase should have its own
    >> Merlin. It should usually be at that base or above a good bovinoid
    >> planet.
    >
    > I wouldn't say one per starbase. If you cannot keep them busy, save the
    > ship slots for something better. Since the best Bovi only gives you 1500
    > Sup/turn but the Merlin processes 3000, I would probably not build so
    > much :)

    I have recently played in a game that had a poor mineral
    universe. Then Merlins are the only way to build up a decent
    fleet. That may influence my statement above. The plist18 game on
    PlanetsServer that you are in (and I were in until I was defeated...)
    has no such problem. I didn't produce any Death Stars, but two or
    three of them went down while in the build queue. Sigh. :( And Death
    Stars are quite the expensive buggers in Plist! :)

    I didn't say one Merlin per starbase though. I said one per
    *production* starbase. So you wouldn't assign a Merlin to a starbase
    that was only built for the extra defense or for putting small deeps
    in the build queue. If a starbase can build a top battleship then it
    can usually build a Merlin instead and use the Merlin to build more
    top ships.

    Ideally you would build only freighters and Merlins (and your special
    ships like hyperjumpers) until the ship limit hits and only start
    building your top ships then. Of course in real life you have
    neighbours...

    --
    Maurits van Rees | http://maurits.vanrees.org/ [Dutch/Nederlands]
    "The question of whether computers can think is like the question of
    whether submarines can swim." - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    Maurits van Rees wrote:
    > Op 2005-02-23, Stefan Reuther schreef <stefan.news@arcor.de>:
    >>Maurits van Rees wrote:
    >>>In the end game every production starbase should have its own
    >>>Merlin. It should usually be at that base or above a good bovinoid
    >>>planet.
    >>
    >>I wouldn't say one per starbase. If you cannot keep them busy, save the
    >>ship slots for something better. Since the best Bovi only gives you 1500
    >>Sup/turn but the Merlin processes 3000, I would probably not build so
    >>much :)
    [...]
    > I didn't say one Merlin per starbase though. I said one per
    > *production* starbase.

    Okay. But, after the ship limit, most of your bases will sit idle
    anyway, waiting until a ship slot gets freed. So you can as well let the
    Merlins go around, instead of having one at each of these production bases.

    Of course, your mileage will vary. But I'm usually too stingy to spend
    my resources on too many Merlins. Or too poor. I'm a lousy economist.

    > Ideally you would build only freighters and Merlins (and your special
    > ships like hyperjumpers) until the ship limit hits and only start
    > building your top ships then. Of course in real life you have
    > neighbours...

    Yeah right :)


    Stefan
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.vga-planets (More info?)

    Thank you all for your advice. That in depth discussion was all i hoped
    for. All of you surpassed my expectations.

    One of my habbits....
    i tend do build quite a few neutronic fuel carriers. especially after
    shiplimit, when i convert the SDSFs (recycle them -> get 1 PBP -> make
    a ship that costs 1PB = dont loose a shipslot)> i have, i build
    several NFCs. i then use them for carrying cash around, towing those
    merlins and refinery ships, and recycling them at starbases that do not
    have enginetech 10. thus i do not have to spend the money for
    enginetech at many bases... and can still produce very good ships
    there. eg many races have a medium hulltech ship that makes a lot of
    sense to be built... eg:
    - the resolute for birds (hulltech7/eng1/beams1/torps8), here the base
    only costs 4900 in techs, with the 4500 i do not have to spend in
    engtech i can nearly build another of those bases and build a second
    resolute...
    - the firecloud for borgs (hulltech6/eng1/beam1/torp1)
    here the base will only be2100MC if used to build pure chunnlers, if
    needed with minelaying it will be as expensiveas the resolute.
    - evil empire can build some SSDs (6/1/1/1)
    same calculation as with the borg here you can build a cool SSD at a
    base that costs 2100MC instead of 6700MC, resulting in being able to
    build nearly 2,5 SSDs.

    Thus i tend to have some NFCs around that can tow the Merlins which is
    summing up in fuel as well. as the NFCs has 0 mass and towed mass needs
    notably less fuel when being moved.
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