A though about the contraband/crime changes that occured

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I know the changes was put in placed, scalled back and changed, and
finaly removed but . . .

I know rebels was one of the factors in having such a change, why not
have it so there is a curve where say they get 200 catanas, and that is
peack efficientcy, past that they get more crime per cantana.

And the other problem, people getting insane money from the use of the
buy/sell. What about making crime go up when purchasing contraband, and
not per type, but per purchased.
28 answers Last reply
More about contraband crime occured
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    You know, I really should preview what I type. . . .

    "A thought about the contraband/crime changes that occurred


    I know the changes were put in place, scaled back, and Finlay removed
    but . . .

    I know rebels was one of the factors for having this, why not have it
    so there is a curve where say they get 200 cantina, and that is peak
    efficiency, past that they get more crime per cantina.

    And the other problem, people getting insane amounts of money from the
    use of the buy/sell. What about making crime go up when purchasing
    contraband, and not per type, but the number purchased. "
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    codynelson@gmail.com wrote:
    > You know, I really should preview what I type. . . .
    >
    > "A thought about the contraband/crime changes that occurred
    >
    >
    > I know the changes were put in place, scaled back, and Finlay removed
    > but . . .
    >
    > I know rebels was one of the factors for having this, why not have it
    > so there is a curve where say they get 200 cantina, and that is peak
    > efficiency, past that they get more crime per cantina.

    Crime is now very effective. Once you get past a crime level of 100
    your col's start dying rapidly if they get unlucky with the dice rolls.
    A rebel player now has to invest in training lots of troops and HG for
    the sole purpose of keeping their crime under control. This means that
    their colonist growth is cut down.

    > And the other problem, people getting insane amounts of money from
    the
    > use of the buy/sell. What about making crime go up when purchasing
    > contraband, and not per type, but the number purchased. "

    This subject has been done to death on this and other forums. The point
    is everyone can do this if they choose. Sure you can make lots of money
    but so can everyone. The point with cantina's is that only the Rebels
    and Azanny can produce it so they should get a penelty for doing so,
    i.e crime. The other point is why make the game even more over
    complicated? It is not a race specific problem, it does not over
    balance the game towards any particular race because all can use it.

    Robert.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    > This subject has been done to death on this and other forums. The point
    > is everyone can do this if they choose. Sure you can make lots of money
    > but so can everyone. The point with cantina's is that only the Rebels
    > and Azanny can produce it so they should get a penelty for doing so,
    > i.e crime. The other point is why make the game even more over
    > complicated? It is not a race specific problem, it does not over
    > balance the game towards any particular race because all can use it.
    >


    Contraband trading does not unbalance anything - at least not much - agreed.

    BUT:
    It makes the game a lot less credible, because almost all races make 95% of
    their money with contaband trading.

    In Endurance I have 2000mio Scavengers and make up to 50mio in one turn if
    the market runs well. The risk involved is 0.

    In the next game I plan to disallow contraband trading - let's see what
    happens. I really don't know.

    Lordfire
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    soxee wrote:
    >
    > codynelson@gmail.com wrote:
    >
    >>You know, I really should preview what I type. . . .
    >>
    >>"A thought about the contraband/crime changes that occurred
    >>
    >>
    >>I know the changes were put in place, scaled back, and Finlay removed
    >>but . . .
    >>
    >>I know rebels was one of the factors for having this, why not have it
    >>so there is a curve where say they get 200 cantina, and that is peak
    >>efficiency, past that they get more crime per cantina.
    >
    >
    > Crime is now very effective. Once you get past a crime level of 100
    > your col's start dying rapidly if they get unlucky with the dice rolls.
    > A rebel player now has to invest in training lots of troops and HG for
    > the sole purpose of keeping their crime under control. This means that
    > their colonist growth is cut down.
    >
    >
    >>And the other problem, people getting insane amounts of money from
    >
    > the
    >
    >>use of the buy/sell. What about making crime go up when purchasing
    >>contraband, and not per type, but the number purchased. "
    >
    >
    > This subject has been done to death on this and other forums. The point
    > is everyone can do this if they choose. Sure you can make lots of money
    > but so can everyone. The point with cantina's is that only the Rebels
    > and Azanny can produce it so they should get a penelty for doing so,
    > i.e crime. The other point is why make the game even more over
    > complicated? It is not a race specific problem, it does not over
    > balance the game towards any particular race because all can use it.
    >
    > Robert.

    But the Aczanny should be crime immune and their cantinas cost 10* the
    Rebel cantinas cost. So the Aczanny need 1.100.000 MC (1.000.000 MC +
    100.000 Sups) to build the max numbers of cantinas. As far as I
    understand it, the Aczanny have given up some things (like PSPs, no
    mines, only Laser Mines ..) for the cantinas and maybe some other
    advantage they have.
    In my games as Aczanny I never get the 10K cantinas on any of my Bases
    before turn 55 or so. But I could not cponcentrate on cantinas building
    cause there was many other things which need my money too like Tech or
    ship building.

    Have for longer time not played them, how does the crime rule work on
    the Aczanny ? Are the immune or not ?

    Bye-Bye JoSch.
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    > Have for longer time not played them, how does the crime rule work on

    > the Aczanny ? Are the immune or not ?

    Partially. They do not have riotting or population loss (the "old"
    crime rules), but they do lose City income (the "new" crime rule).

    Scytale
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Complicated, having to deal with a gimic that meks most of the money
    for most people once they understand how, that was never ment to be a
    major source of income.

    Example: EE can make toons of money w/o prisoners the need of, reb
    could not make cantanas and just use the stock market and make
    millions, races with insane defense can turtle up and rake in cash with
    out ever looking for more resources.

    kind a ruins the game, the only valid reason I see for being able to
    buy it, is to attack natives who like it, or the posible reason to buy
    it and use it to increase anotehrs crime by selling it to one fo their
    planets. But you can find it.

    I would actualy like to see being able to buy it completely removed.
    makes the game simplier, and helps show where the balances of the game
    really are. Or at least remove the random factor to the market.

    But then I also think spy missions should be removed as well.
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I like the idea of not buying contra, it would make the deficiencies in
    each races ability to make money stand out more, then they could be
    properly addressed.

    And it would make the curve for people a little easier.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    It could be so easy: nobody should be able to buy contra...
    Or at least: Only some contra per turn...


    <codynelson@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:1111595432.865409.268640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > Complicated, having to deal with a gimic that meks most of the money
    > for most people once they understand how, that was never ment to be a
    > major source of income.
    >
    > Example: EE can make toons of money w/o prisoners the need of, reb
    > could not make cantanas and just use the stock market and make
    > millions, races with insane defense can turtle up and rake in cash with
    > out ever looking for more resources.
    >
    > kind a ruins the game, the only valid reason I see for being able to
    > buy it, is to attack natives who like it, or the posible reason to buy
    > it and use it to increase anotehrs crime by selling it to one fo their
    > planets. But you can find it.
    >
    > I would actualy like to see being able to buy it completely removed.
    > makes the game simplier, and helps show where the balances of the game
    > really are. Or at least remove the random factor to the market.
    >
    > But then I also think spy missions should be removed as well.
    >
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Lordfire wrote:
    > Contraband trading does not unbalance anything - at least not much -
    agreed.
    >

    Only because of the resource point allocation and the limit of 20 k
    objects.

    > BUT:
    > It makes the game a lot less credible, because almost all races make
    95% of
    > their money with contaband trading.

    Might I know which races you are excluding (since you said almost all)?
    And then I doubt that almost all races are making 95% of their money
    via contra trading. In all of my games only in one did I make over 50 %
    of the income with contra trading.

    >
    > In Endurance I have 2000mio Scavengers and make up to 50mio in one
    turn if
    > the market runs well. The risk involved is 0.
    >

    Alone the fact that you and a few other races have over 1 billion
    Colonists tells me that a quiet few races (roleplaying or not) did not
    play their races properly (you included).

    > In the next game I plan to disallow contraband trading - let's see
    what
    > happens. I really don't know.
    >
    > Lordfire

    And then a fix is easy, consider a price of say 50 mc for contra type a
    (if you buy it). But you are on that turn only able to get a max of 45
    mc (90 % ) for it when you sell it. If the price is around say 2 mc
    (for buying), you would only be able to sell it for 1,5 mc.
    So with other words a reduction of the price of contra, depending on
    the current price with a fixed minimum reduction in price.
    Also if the reduction would be variable, depending on a few other
    things also.

    Income from contra trading would still be possible but not too easy to
    obtain.

    Also the income for self produced and gathered contra would go down,
    but
    the effect should in most cases be minor. (Problem would be only for
    races whose
    produced contra types are too cheap).
    I guess you are getting the idea.

    In any case all of you should try to orientate on real market
    behaviours (and models of them) to come
    across possible fixes. And that I have to tell that someone who is
    studying business management...
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Lordfire wrote:
    > "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> wrote in message
    > news:1111671706.793862.37120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > > Lordfire wrote:
    > >> Contraband trading does not unbalance anything - at least not much
    -
    > > agreed.
    > >>
    > >
    > > Only because of the resource point allocation and the limit of 20 k
    > > objects.
    > >
    > >> BUT:
    > >> It makes the game a lot less credible, because almost all races
    make
    > > 95% of
    > >> their money with contaband trading.
    > >
    > > Might I know which races you are excluding (since you said almost
    all)?
    > > And then I doubt that almost all races are making 95% of their
    money
    > > via contra trading. In all of my games only in one did I make over
    50 %
    > > of the income with contra trading.
    >
    > UEA and BORG cannot trade with contraband ....

    Good answer , sadly not complete, you ought to have at least the Cents
    included also. And also the privs. And then you are usually doing
    something wrong if you can spend most of your money per turn on
    contraband investments.
    You see in 2003 I did take over a priv where the original player did
    say that he had too much money (or better more money then he could
    spend). After only 2-3 turns most of that money was spent! - Why?
    Because I think that you cannot have too much of anything - you can
    only lack of some other things. Namely RPs, metals, Crew, Fuel, (a few
    hundred River Royals) ...
    And to get back to the topic of contra trading, if you invest in contra
    the money is doing essentially nothing for you (except reproducing)...

    > In very fast games contra trading is less important - you probably
    play(ed)
    > these.
    >

    Oh, the games were fast because I did make them fast by the way I did
    play in these games. The same would have happened in games like
    Endurance.

    > >
    > >>
    > >> In Endurance I have 2000mio Scavengers and make up to 50mio in one
    > > turn if
    > >> the market runs well. The risk involved is 0.
    > >>
    > >
    > > Alone the fact that you and a few other races have over 1 billion
    > > Colonists tells me that a quiet few races (roleplaying or not) did
    not
    > > play their races properly (you included).
    >
    > Wrong. Look at the map this games plays in.
    > http://www.lordfire.de/VGAP4/Endurance.htm
    >

    I did look the map up before I did come to that conclusion.
    You see you and a few others do not have an awfully lot of money since
    the last few turns, but for a long time. The S-Pulse would have been
    mandatory, to be in effect. Since at one point it is not more important
    that you do get a higher income increase than the others but that your
    turns stay to be easily manageable. I guess for quiet a few races 100 k
    mcs are peanuts and have been for quiet some time. I can get into more
    details, as to why quiet a few players in that game did not play
    properly, but maybe you are already getting this point.

    You see you should have told that a few others who did claim that a
    certain person did an incredible job with the Aczanny in one of your
    games.
    You only need a small look at the setup, know what a few things do mean
    for a few races (Cantinas, Air... etc.), and you would not be surprised
    neither by the outcome of the game nor by the way it was won.

    > >
    > >> In the next game I plan to disallow contraband trading - let's see
    > > what
    > >> happens. I really don't know.
    > >>
    > >> Lordfire
    > >
    > > And then a fix is easy, consider a price of say 50 mc for contra
    type a
    > > (if you buy it). But you are on that turn only able to get a max of
    45
    > > mc (90 % ) for it when you sell it. If the price is around say 2 mc
    > > (for buying), you would only be able to sell it for 1,5 mc.
    > > So with other words a reduction of the price of contra, depending
    on
    > > the current price with a fixed minimum reduction in price.
    > > Also if the reduction would be variable, depending on a few other
    > > things also.
    > >
    > > Income from contra trading would still be possible but not too easy
    to
    > > obtain.
    > >
    > > Also the income for self produced and gathered contra would go
    down,
    > > but
    > > the effect should in most cases be minor. (Problem would be only
    for
    > > races whose
    > > produced contra types are too cheap).
    > > I guess you are getting the idea.
    > >
    > > In any case all of you should try to orientate on real market
    > > behaviours (and models of them) to come
    > > across possible fixes. And that I have to tell that someone who is
    > > studying business management...
    >
    > This is a possible fix. Agreed.- And it has nothing to do with
    markets, btw.

    Really? You see you seldom can buy the same stuff from a person for the
    same price at the same time as you could sell it to the same person.
    (Do you want me to elaborate).


    > I, also, would implement a market model . Actually an easy one where
    players
    > sell to each other. The price that would generate the most turnover
    would
    > then be chosen as the price for a turn. Perhaps put some artificial
    traders
    > into the game (like some banks in real life) to increase liquidity.

    Am I already seeing ways to abuse that system?
    Well it probably does depend on how it is implemented.
    In any case I guess you should think it through and also think about
    ways
    to abuse it.

    > Btw: I study physics. I'm finished with financial mathematics.

    Does that change anything about my comment?
    Probably not, at least not to the better (for you).
  11. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Buying contraband is currently too important to the game. Think of the
    Privs and the UEA for simple examples, or getting Ghips.

    The real problem with the contraband market is the lack of risk. If
    there was significant risk, people wouldn't make money so easily. Say,
    for example, contraband traders occasionally screw you over: they take
    all the money from your buy order and run without giving you the goods.


    Scytale
  12. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Am I already seeing ways to abuse that system? "

    IMO if people are able to reliable make a good amount of money every
    turn, then it is being abused.

    Want to make it simulate market? Have them be able to actually lose
    money, in market, if you make 8% profit a year on investments, that is
    good. Safe good is more like 2-3%. So they shouldn't be making more
    than 2% a turn, and have a chance where they would lose it.

    Also, supply and demand, so where ius the supply in this game? who is
    the person you are buying it from? who is buying it from us?

    The easiest way would be to remove being able to buy it, or maybe not
    able to buy what hasn't been sold. Can't buy 1000 of something when
    there has only been 15 sold the whole game.

    And right, in this game, there rely isn;t to much money, it is not
    enough of the other resources. However, people abusing the contra
    market to make an easy/safe million credits was not what it was
    designed for.
  13. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> wrote in message
    news:1111671706.793862.37120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > Lordfire wrote:
    >> Contraband trading does not unbalance anything - at least not much -
    > agreed.
    >>
    >
    > Only because of the resource point allocation and the limit of 20 k
    > objects.
    >
    >> BUT:
    >> It makes the game a lot less credible, because almost all races make
    > 95% of
    >> their money with contaband trading.
    >
    > Might I know which races you are excluding (since you said almost all)?
    > And then I doubt that almost all races are making 95% of their money
    > via contra trading. In all of my games only in one did I make over 50 %
    > of the income with contra trading.

    UEA and BORG cannot trade with contraband ....
    In very fast games contra trading is less important - you probably play(ed)
    these.

    >
    >>
    >> In Endurance I have 2000mio Scavengers and make up to 50mio in one
    > turn if
    >> the market runs well. The risk involved is 0.
    >>
    >
    > Alone the fact that you and a few other races have over 1 billion
    > Colonists tells me that a quiet few races (roleplaying or not) did not
    > play their races properly (you included).

    Wrong. Look at the map this games plays in.
    http://www.lordfire.de/VGAP4/Endurance.htm

    >
    >> In the next game I plan to disallow contraband trading - let's see
    > what
    >> happens. I really don't know.
    >>
    >> Lordfire
    >
    > And then a fix is easy, consider a price of say 50 mc for contra type a
    > (if you buy it). But you are on that turn only able to get a max of 45
    > mc (90 % ) for it when you sell it. If the price is around say 2 mc
    > (for buying), you would only be able to sell it for 1,5 mc.
    > So with other words a reduction of the price of contra, depending on
    > the current price with a fixed minimum reduction in price.
    > Also if the reduction would be variable, depending on a few other
    > things also.
    >
    > Income from contra trading would still be possible but not too easy to
    > obtain.
    >
    > Also the income for self produced and gathered contra would go down,
    > but
    > the effect should in most cases be minor. (Problem would be only for
    > races whose
    > produced contra types are too cheap).
    > I guess you are getting the idea.
    >
    > In any case all of you should try to orientate on real market
    > behaviours (and models of them) to come
    > across possible fixes. And that I have to tell that someone who is
    > studying business management...

    This is a possible fix. Agreed.- And it has nothing to do with markets, btw.

    I, also, would implement a market model . Actually an easy one where players
    sell to each other. The price that would generate the most turnover would
    then be chosen as the price for a turn. Perhaps put some artificial traders
    into the game (like some banks in real life) to increase liquidity.

    Btw: I study physics. I'm finished with financial mathematics.

    Lordfire
  14. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    >>
    >> UEA and BORG cannot trade with contraband ....
    >
    > Good answer , sadly not complete, you ought to have at least the Cents
    > included also. And also the privs. And then you are usually doing
    > something wrong if you can spend most of your money per turn on
    > contraband investments.

    May I as why Prics and Cents trade less contra?
    Ok .. Privs in the beginning when they sell the contra they find .. same
    goes for Rebels if they use cantinas..
    But in the long run Cents and privs will also trade contraband. Why
    shouldn't they?


    > You see in 2003 I did take over a priv where the original player did
    > say that he had too much money (or better more money then he could
    > spend). After only 2-3 turns most of that money was spent! - Why?
    > Because I think that you cannot have too much of anything - you can
    > only lack of some other things. Namely RPs, metals, Crew, Fuel, (a few
    > hundred River Royals) ...

    The Grandadmiral told me so some moths ago. By now I have convinced him that
    contra trading pays off.
    150k mc tomorow are usually better than 100k today.

    > And to get back to the topic of contra trading, if you invest in contra
    > the money is doing essentially nothing for you (except reproducing)...

    As long as you have a good infrastructure and ways to spend the money fast
    you can wait until somebody attacks you to invest the money.


    >
    > Oh, the games were fast because I did make them fast by the way I did
    > play in these games. The same would have happened in games like
    > Endurance.

    Oh - another person who walks around telling people that if *they* had
    playing in game X everything had been different. Most unfortunate that we
    will never find out.

    >
    > I did look the map up before I did come to that conclusion.
    > You see you and a few others do not have an awfully lot of money since
    > the last few turns, but for a long time. The S-Pulse would have been
    > mandatory, to be in effect. Since at one point it is not more important
    > that you do get a higher income increase than the others but that your
    > turns stay to be easily manageable. I guess for quiet a few races 100 k
    > mcs are peanuts and have been for quiet some time. I can get into more
    > details, as to why quiet a few players in that game did not play
    > properly, but maybe you are already getting this point.

    I tried to use the S-Pulse and had almost 20 empires invade me due to this
    :)
    I agree, however - you could have played Endurance differently. I am lucky
    that nobody did, because I wanted to have fun.

    >
    > You see you should have told that a few others who did claim that a
    > certain person did an incredible job with the Aczanny in one of your
    > games.
    > You only need a small look at the setup, know what a few things do mean
    > for a few races (Cantinas, Air... etc.), and you would not be surprised
    > neither by the outcome of the game nor by the way it was won.

    Indeed - the Cents were one of my favourites for that game...
    I agree - a lot depends on the player

    >
    > Really? You see you seldom can buy the same stuff from a person for the
    > same price at the same time as you could sell it to the same person.
    > (Do you want me to elaborate).

    Yes - the computer roleplaying shop solution.
    BUT: In a real stock market it doesn't work this way. You don't even have to
    sell back to the same person.


    > Am I already seeing ways to abuse that system?
    > Well it probably does depend on how it is implemented.
    > In any case I guess you should think it through and also think about
    > ways to abuse it.

    Indeed - it would be important to look out for 'abuseability'
    But since I am not the creator of VGAP and the creator has rejected all
    these ideas by a lot of people.... why should I think it through??
    Why don't you do it ??

    >
    >> Btw: I study physics. I'm finished with financial mathematics.
    >
    > Does that change anything about my comment?
    > Probably not, at least not to the better (for you).

    What kind of comment is *that* ??

    Let me answer the same way:
    Does that change anything about why I study?
    Probably not, at least not to the better (for you).

    Lordfire
  15. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Lordfire wrote:
    >May I as why Prics and Cents trade less contra?

    I could have actualy named a few more races.

    >Ok .. Privs in the beginning when they sell the contra they find ..
    same
    >goes for Rebels if they use cantinas..

    Maybe the privs are only excluded because you said 95 % - and
    that is a little harsh considering their money stealing ability.
    And then the list is acutualy longer, but in that case my post would
    have also benn longer...

    >But in the long run Cents and privs will also trade contraband. Why
    >shouldn't they?

    The problem for the Cents are in the long run, if
    money is not the issue, the resource points.
    And then the amorphous worms are also giving each turn a
    little revenue (aside from breeding). And you really have to consider
    if popping most
    amorphs and selling them for contra trading is giving them a greater
    revenue than just having them (and the races which do like lerchin
    spice breed).
    I can tell you that not always contra trading will be more
    profitable not even in the long run - in any case you would not make
    the biggest share
    of your money that way.

    And ever tried to safely forecast the contra prices, the ups and downs,
    while wagin' war on all other races and launching attacks on the main
    population
    worlds of more than one race at the same time, and not knowing whether
    the population will be evacuated before you hit them or if he does not
    even suspect
    an attack on his HW or thinks his HW (and base shield) to survive the
    onslaught?
    You see thinks can get increasingly difficult. And in those cases it is
    much safer to not invest money
    into the contra market, especially since in some case it is possible
    that about all types of contra will
    fall in price! - Ie. As a Cent you do not have a too big
    influence on the contra prices, with your population, not even
    on the price of Illegal Music Disks, especially when a few other races
    who like that type are in the game.

    >The Grandadmiral told me so some moths ago. By now I have convinced
    him that
    >contra trading pays off.
    >150k mc tomorow are usually better than 100k today.

    No, it actually very much depends on the situation you are in.
    And of course contra trading pays off (if done with the right amount of
    money at the right time)
    - maybe you want to remember who
    did know more at the end of 2003 know about
    the contra market you or I?

    I for my part try to forecast how long the game will probably take,
    until
    it is decided, and how much money I will probably need. And then act
    accordingly. You see you do not need one turn later 50 k mc more if
    you did end the game this turn.

    And then you are looking at it from the wrong side.
    The ratio of your money to the money of all enemies (for simplicity we
    are just assuming that all
    other races are the enemy - that is my usual viewpoint unless I am
    allied (and then I am only not counting that to a certain extent))
    does matter not if you have a little bit more money sometime later.
    Ie. What does it help you to have 150 k mc one turn later (instead of
    100 k now)
    if the enemy then has instead of 10 k mc over 50 k mcs?
    Will your chances then be better or worse?


    >> And to get back to the topic of contra trading, if you invest in
    contra
    >> the money is doing essentially nothing for you (except
    reproducing)...

    >As long as you have a good infrastructure and ways to spend the money
    fast
    >you can wait until somebody attacks you to invest the money.

    Unless of course you choke on a lack of resource points, which you
    might
    have changed if you only did invest a few thousand
    credits a little bit earlier into military equipment...
    Otherwise see the part about money ratio - what does it help you if you
    are getting
    richer by not attacking but investing - when the enemy does earn more?

    >> Oh, the games were fast because I did make them fast by the way I
    did
    >> play in these games. The same would have happened in games like
    >> Endurance.

    >Oh - another person who walks around telling people that if *they* had
    >playing in game X everything had been different. Most unfortunate that
    we
    >will never find out.

    You must be very disappointed about that. And of course you are not
    seeing any difference between me claiming
    that and most others saying that.

    >> I did look the map up before I did come to that conclusion.
    >> You see you and a few others do not have an awfully lot of money
    since
    >> the last few turns, but for a long time. The S-Pulse would have been
    >> mandatory, to be in effect. Since at one point it is not more
    important
    >> that you do get a higher income increase than the others but that
    your
    >> turns stay to be easily manageable. I guess for quiet a few races
    100 k
    >> mcs are peanuts and have been for quiet some time. I can get into
    more
    >> details, as to why quiet a few players in that game did not play
    >> properly, but maybe you are already getting this point.

    >I tried to use the S-Pulse and had almost 20 empires invade me due to
    this
    >:)

    Of course that would happen in that case. I could have told you before.
    Of course you would need to be prepared - or better
    be already against a few of them on the offensive.
    And then with enough patience - no premature disabeling of the S-pulse
    -
    the S-pulse would have payed off - even alone - if you were strong
    enough.
    And then why did you not try to convince a few single races that it is
    actually advantageous to
    keep the S-Pulse enabled. You might have gotten help...


    >I agree, however - you could have played Endurance differently. I am
    lucky
    >that nobody did, because I wanted to have fun.

    Of course you could have had fun also in that case.
    The problem with so large empires, aside from the money/contra problem,
    and the manageability problem (especially with the client as it is now)
    is that many
    low growth races will not have a chance that way - they will choke on
    lack of rps. And many of the low growth races will also become poor
    in comparison to many high growth races (I am not counting
    the bots or borg as low growth race).

    >> You see you should have told that a few others who did claim that a
    >> certain person did an incredible job with the Aczanny in one of your
    >> games.
    >> You only need a small look at the setup, know what a few things do
    mean
    >> for a few races (Cantinas, Air... etc.), and you would not be
    surprised
    >> neither by the outcome of the game nor by the way it was won.

    >Indeed - the Cents were one of my favourites for that game...

    You mean Aczanny. With no starting ships (and no fuel which is more
    important -
    more important than the starting Shamia is the 14 k kt
    of starting fuel on that ship),
    such a low population and so few
    money, there was not much of a chance for the Cents.
    And I would not have joined that game with any race - no
    challenge with a few races about no chance at all with the others.


    >> Really? You see you seldom can buy the same stuff from a person for
    the
    >> same price at the same time as you could sell it to the same person.
    >> (Do you want me to elaborate).

    >Yes - the computer roleplaying shop solution.
    >BUT: In a real stock market it doesn't work this way. You don't even
    have to
    >sell back to the same person.

    Yes in real stock market it works a little bit differently, but still
    even in
    real stock market you can about never sell the stuff to the same price
    as you would
    have to buy it. Or think about currency exchange there is always a fee.
    Of course you can tell me that it has nothing to do with it...
    But for that the only reason would be that it is too trivial.

    >> Am I already seeing ways to abuse that system?
    >> Well it probably does depend on how it is implemented.
    >> In any case I guess you should think it through and also think about
    >> ways to abuse it.

    >Indeed - it would be important to look out for 'abuseability'
    >But since I am not the creator of VGAP and the creator has rejected
    all
    >these ideas by a lot of people.... why should I think it through??
    >Why don't you do
    >it ??

    Why would I? And then what makes you think
    that I have not already done that?

    >>> Btw: I study physics. I'm finished with financial mathematics.

    >> Does that change anything about my comment?
    >> Probably not, at least not to the better (for you).

    >What kind of comment is *that* ??

    If you would understand it - a not too nice one -
    and then you would need to see it in context
    with the initial reason for you having put
    up the part after "Btw".
  16. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Lordfire" <a@b.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:3ag865F6bamhlU1@uni-berlin.de...


    > The Grandadmiral told me so some moths ago. By now I have convinced him
    that
    > contra trading pays off.
    > 150k mc tomorow are usually better than 100k today.

    The problems with this an similar arguments is that they definitely are true
    in an economically race situation where all techs are discovered, all
    minerals are mined, and so on.
    But how do you evaluate the price for winning an area especially if food is
    an problem? What's the value of getting AAbase tech earlier than your
    opponent?

    Your argument is understandable but in my opinion it arises from the fact
    that it is still too often possible to be a builder but not a warrior.

    GFM GToeroe
  17. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:1111749829.474174.81580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > The problem for the Cents are in the long run, if
    > money is not the issue, the resource points.

    An argument to neglect cites but trying to get the money without growth
    handicaps.

    > And then the amorphous worms are also giving each turn a
    > little revenue (aside from breeding). And you really have to consider
    > if popping most
    > amorphs and selling them for contra trading is giving them a greater
    > revenue than just having them (and the races which do like lerchin
    > spice breed).

    But this is easy to solve and a special case.

    > And ever tried to safely forecast the contra prices, the ups and downs,
    > while wagin' war on all other races and launching attacks on the main
    > population

    Well, could be sovled by concentrating of good looking types and being more
    careful with types relying only on one or two races.

    > worlds of more than one race at the same time, and not knowing whether
    > the population will be evacuated before you hit them or if he does not
    > even suspect
    > an attack on his HW or thinks his HW (and base shield) to survive the
    > onslaught?

    Singular events

    Maybe one asks "What is the overall return in five/ten and twenty turns?"

    GFM GToeroe
  18. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Gabor Törö wrote:
    > "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:1111749829.474174.81580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > >
    > > The problem for the Cents are in the long run, if
    > > money is not the issue, the resource points.
    >
    > An argument to neglect cites but trying to get the money without
    growth
    > handicaps.

    Really? Well more like, not building Cities and many PublicSpaceports.
    And if the game takes to long, without some races keeping the total
    population of most races down, you will still get a rp problem as a
    Cent.
    And then it is more an argument for enabling the S-Pulse fast - than
    your argument about cities. The growth loose from one city is
    (especially for Cents) neglateable, the income from 5 cities is worth a
    PSP and with enough Population the PSPs will offset the negative
    influences of the cities. And then I did rarely build cities as a Cent.

    > > And then the amorphous worms are also giving each turn a
    > > little revenue (aside from breeding). And you really have to
    consider
    > > if popping most
    > > amorphs and selling them for contra trading is giving them a
    greater
    > > revenue than just having them (and the races which do like lerchin
    > > spice breed).
    >
    > But this is easy to solve and a special case.

    If you would have read properly (assuming that you can) you
    would have realized that this is something only applieable to Cents and
    Peeps and Stormer (and some races which might get many amorphs and ways
    to pop them). Do you want me to bring up other special cases?

    > > And ever tried to safely forecast the contra prices, the ups and
    downs,
    > > while wagin' war on all other races and launching attacks on the
    main
    > > population
    >
    > Well, could be sovled by concentrating of good looking types and
    being more
    > careful with types relying only on one or two races.

    If you want to maybe do some strategical errors - of course you can.
    And then you can be sure that as a Cent all I have too look for is to
    target the
    races which do like lerchin spice last (except for the privs or a peep
    which has too many amorphs...). And I never said that it cannot be
    solved only that it does get more difficult (eventhough especially for
    the races which are not the attacker).

    > > worlds of more than one race at the same time, and not knowing
    whether
    > > the population will be evacuated before you hit them or if he does
    not
    > > even suspect
    > > an attack on his HW or thinks his HW (and base shield) to survive
    the
    > > onslaught?
    >
    > Singular events

    Yep singular events, which can happen multiple times per turn.

    > Maybe one asks "What is the overall return in five/ten and twenty
    turns?"

    Maybe one asks what is the overall wealth ratio change from your empire
    compared to the others in 5,10 and 20 turns?
  19. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Gabor Törö wrote:
    > "Lordfire" <a@b.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:3ag865F6bamhlU1@uni-berlin.de...
    >
    >
    > > The Grandadmiral told me so some moths ago. By now I have convinced
    him
    > that
    > > contra trading pays off.
    > > 150k mc tomorow are usually better than 100k today.
    >
    > The problems with this an similar arguments is that they definitely
    are true
    > in an economically race situation where all techs are discovered, all
    > minerals are mined, and so on.
    > But how do you evaluate the price for winning an area especially if
    food is
    > an problem? What's the value of getting AAbase tech earlier than your
    > opponent?
    >
    > Your argument is understandable but in my opinion it arises from the
    fact
    > that it is still too often possible to be a builder but not a
    warrior.
    >
    > GFM GToeroe

    Only one little question? Would you consider the Cents (the way I did
    play them) as Warriors or as Builders. In my very very humble opinion,
    you are usually best
    of as a kind of hybrid.
  20. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:1112270026.402470.81310@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

    Gabor Törö wrote:
    > "Lordfire" <a@b.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:3ag865F6bamhlU1@uni-berlin.de...
    >
    >

    >Only one little question? Would you consider the Cents (the way I did
    >play them) as Warriors or as Builders. In my very very humble opinion,
    >you are usually best of as a kind of hybrid.

    With "warriors or builders" I meant players. Most of the discussions about
    balancing come from the very special experiences of players in their
    function as warriors or builders. A lot of voices about "Bot is too strong"
    reflect a situation were a Bot could do what he wants.

    But as you ask it: A Cent should has a hard job in surviving in the long run
    if there are still health high growth empires due to the RPs. So a Cents
    should be played more aggressively although also Cents as every other race
    rely on a health economy

    But I never played them (but against them :( ) You should have more detailed
    knowlegde about them.

    GFM GToeroe
  21. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:1112269749.226058.308040@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    Gabor Törö wrote:
    > "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    > news:1111749829.474174.81580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > >
    > > The problem for the Cents are in the long run, if
    > > money is not the issue, the resource points.
    >
    > An argument to neglect cites but trying to get the money without
    growth
    > handicaps.

    >Really? Well more like, not building Cities and many PublicSpaceports.
    >And if the game takes to long, without some races keeping the total
    >population of most races down, you will still get a rp problem as a
    >Cent.
    >And then it is more an argument for enabling the S-Pulse fast - than
    >your argument about cities. The growth loose from one city is
    >(especially for Cents) neglateable, the income from 5 cities is worth a
    >PSP and with enough Population the PSPs will offset the negative
    >influences of the cities. And then I did rarely build cities as a Cent.

    Certainly you speak with the background of your experiences which I miss.
    But look:

    There is a Cent which builds no cities at all, get Raffa tech around trn 20,
    where he also switch on TOTA
    and start selling popped spice at 3mc/kT (no Peep/Scav, maybe EE and Priv
    but then I think 3mc are also way to low) also arround trn 20. Then there is
    a Cent who do the same but builds cites and start the Raffa-popping thing 5
    turn earlier. both start with 1,000,000 colonists. The columns with the 20
    indicates the activated TOTA.


    15 1851945 6079 1353655 20 22678
    16 1935282 6645 1396027 20 24483
    17 2022370 7237 1438473 20 26342
    18 2113377 7855 1480914 20 28256
    19 2208479 8501 1523275 20 30225
    20 2340987 20 16209 1565480 20 32248


    30 4192352 20 123898 1963509 20 55372
    31 4443893 20 138530 1999586 20 57956
    32 4710527 20 154039 2034796 20 60586
    33 4993158 20 170479 2069107 20 63261
    34 5292748 20 187905 2102492 20 65978
    35 5610313 20 206377 2134928 20 68738


    45 10047216 20 464461 2405117 20 98357
    46 10650049 20 499526 2426791 20 101494
    47 11289052 20 536695 2447545 20 104658
    48 11966395 20 576095 2467400 20 107847
    49 12684378 20 617858 2486377 20 111060
    50 13445441 20 662127 2504500 20 114297


    Though this is an academical example the ratio 662,127mc to 114,297mc is
    impressive. It would be even more if there were Peeps/Scav or an exploding
    Priv.
    It mainly relies on the ability to sell much more spice (never touch a Scav
    or Peep at first?)


    >If you would have read properly (assuming that you can) you
    >would have realized that this is something only applieable to Cents and
    >Peeps and Stormer (and some races which might get many amorphs and ways
    >to pop them). Do you want me to bring up other special cases?

    Oh, I think we are talking on two lines. I don't want to speak about the
    Cents but point on that your argument with the Cents is a singular case when
    discussing if one always (or most of the time can or should trade with the
    market)

    >If you want to maybe do some strategical errors - of course you can.
    >And then you can be sure that as a Cent all I have too look for is to
    >target the

    Damned, again two line speaking. You are right, everything is good.

    Please take this: In general and most of the time you can't do things bad if
    you trade with CB if you don't overlook a few points.


    >races which do like lerchin spice last (except for the privs or a peep
    >which has too many amorphs...). And I never said that it cannot be

    Ah, now you said it, too.

    >Yep singular events, which can happen multiple times per turn.

    Man, but not every turn. And in the case that such things will happen games
    most of the time are very developped and then you know about wars.
    If a type then falls I look which races rely on them and if I see that an
    exodus could be the reason I leave my fingers from this type. And often the
    exodus of a race can be seen by a slowly falling mean price
    which cannot be explained by the pressing effect of type which are binded to
    high growth races. Then also one should think twice about an investment.
    You can say what you want but most of the time cb trading is afine thing and
    most of the time it can even be done "blind" (meaning the former described
    careful looks on the details)

    >Maybe one asks what is the overall wealth ratio change from your empire
    >compared to the others in 5,10 and 20 turns?

    Ok, that is spoken more exactly. "Return" not only contains mc for me but
    also revenues in area, speed, and so on.

    GFM GToeroe
  22. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Gabor Törö wrote:
    >Certainly you speak with the background of your experiences which I
    miss.
    >But look:

    >There is a Cent which builds no cities at all, get Raffa tech around
    trn 20,
    >where he also switch on TOTA
    >and start selling popped spice at 3mc/kT (no Peep/Scav, maybe EE and
    Priv
    >but then I think 3mc are also way to low) also arround trn 20. Then
    there is
    >a Cent who do the same but builds cites and start the Raffa-popping
    thing 5
    >turn earlier. both start with 1,000,000 colonists. The columns with
    the 20
    >indicates the activated TOTA.

    > 15 1851945 6079 1353655 20 22678
    > 16 1935282 6645 1396027 20 24483
    > 17 2022370 7237 1438473 20 26342
    > 18 2113377 7855 1480914 20 28256
    > 19 2208479 8501 1523275 20 30225
    > 20 2340987 20 16209 1565480 20 32248

    > 30 4192352 20 123898 1963509 20 55372
    > 31 4443893 20 138530 1999586 20 57956
    > 32 4710527 20 154039 2034796 20 60586
    > 33 4993158 20 170479 2069107 20 63261
    > 34 5292748 20 187905 2102492 20 65978
    > 35 5610313 20 206377 2134928 20 68738

    > 45 10047216 20 464461 2405117 20 98357
    > 46 10650049 20 499526 2426791 20 101494
    > 47 11289052 20 536695 2447545 20 104658
    > 48 11966395 20 576095 2467400 20 107847
    > 49 12684378 20 617858 2486377 20 111060
    > 50 13445441 20 662127 2504500 20 114297

    >Though this is an academical example the ratio 662,127mc to 114,297mc
    is
    >impressive. It would be even more if there were Peeps/Scav or an
    exploding
    >Priv.
    >It mainly relies on the ability to sell much more spice (never touch a
    Scav
    >or Peep at first?)

    Well first of all where have you seen me state that in case you build
    cities you should
    build a lot of them? - Nowhere. Where have you seen me state that the
    ToTA should be
    used to boost growth and not Public Spaceports (if the ToTs would also
    boost native growth
    it would be different in some situations). You see on a 1 million
    Colonist base, also assuming
    that most of your population is there, 100 PSPs will give you a growth
    rate
    boost of 200 (or with other words a growth rate of 10 % - for that
    base) - which would stay at that
    percentage until you have more than 10 million colonists on that base.
    Costs:
    50 k mc (initial investment) + 500 mc upkeep per turn (that is for 100
    psps).
    And then where have you seen me state that the Cent would sell spice
    only on his bases?
    It is actually preferable to sell them via pod to other bases - you can
    sell
    more that way.

    So all in all I have to say that your are able to bring up academical
    examples, but you see
    I never doubted that, but you are nearly always coming up with the
    wrong ones (or inferior ones).
    And maybe next time you will also exactly state what income and
    expenses you did take into
    account when calculating the last column.


    >>If you would have read properly (assuming that you can) you
    >>would have realized that this is something only applieable to Cents
    and
    >>Peeps and Stormer (and some races which might get many amorphs and
    ways
    >>to pop them). Do you want me to bring up other special cases?

    >Oh, I think we are talking on two lines. I don't want to speak about
    the
    >Cents but point on that your argument with the Cents is a singular
    case when
    >discussing if one always (or most of the time can or should trade with
    the
    >market)

    Well in that case, maybe, you should have not quoted the paragraph
    you did and post your reply to it, at least not without having looked
    up
    what part of lordfires post I did quote ( in that case it would be
    obivous
    as to why you have the impression of talking along two lines - not my
    fault).
    As it is, it was part of my answer to lordfires quesion, as to why
    Cents and privs would not make most of their money via contraband
    trading.

    And do you want me to bring up other special cases or not (and no the
    Cents would not
    have anything to do with these)?


    >>If you want to maybe do some strategical errors - of course you can.
    >>And then you can be sure that as a Cent all I have too look for is to
    >>target the

    >Damned, again two line speaking. You are right, everything is good.

    Do you want me to discuss whether it is again or still two line
    speaking -
    whatever you mean with that.

    >Please take this: In general and most of the time you can't do things
    bad if
    >you trade with CB if you don't overlook a few points.

    Same can be said about almost everything else also, the question is, if
    it is
    a correct assumption. And then I hope the players in the game are
    always also
    a point not to overlook. Do I have to add that I like special cases,
    exceptions
    to rules etc..

    >>races which do like lerchin spice last (except for the privs or a
    peep
    >>which has too many amorphs...). And I never said that it cannot be

    >Ah, now you said it, too.

    You should search the newsgroup and consider a few things I posted
    there over
    a year ago, in case you ever had doubts if I would say that...

    >>Yep singular events, which can happen multiple times per turn.

    >Man, but not every turn.

    Look back at Abundant Standard, did I not attack around and before turn
    20 many races within maybe 3 turns (the funny thing about that is that
    I could not
    hurt the lerchin price, only the kerria price - btw. I did earn quiet a
    little bit
    money by gathering kerrias in that game).

    > And in the case that such things will happen games
    >most of the time are very developped and then you know about wars.

    First of all I have to remind you that we are still speaking about
    Cents.
    And then I doubt that in many of these cases many other races would
    be really developed. You see in my Cent games at one time I was at war
    with nearly
    everyone else (do I have to remind you of the totally ineffective
    Anti-Centaur Alliance in
    a certain game where you I guess belonged to it),
    but that does not mean that I did already attack them. And then
    a lack of a treaty would have been enough for suprise attacks (as I do
    not
    violate any treaty myself) and I want to see who without the scan data
    available
    will know which race or races will be next, especially if you are
    already
    clearing the minefields of most empires for sometime.

    >If a type then falls I look which races rely on them and if I see that
    an
    >exodus could be the reason I leave my fingers from this type.

    And what do you do if you suspect that nearly all types are affected
    by it? And only about one is not (since we are still speaking about
    Cents it would most likely be
    lerchin spice).

    > And often the
    >exodus of a race can be seen by a slowly falling mean price
    >which cannot be explained by the pressing effect of type which are
    binded to
    >high growth races.

    There is actually a very logical explanation for it - and I could have
    told
    you that at the time it was introduced (and I guess I have done that at
    least indirect...).

    >Then also one should think twice about an investment.
    >You can say what you want but most of the time cb trading is afine
    thing and
    >most of the time it can even be done "blind" (meaning the former
    described
    >careful looks on the details)

    I never claimed otherwise.

    >>Maybe one asks what is the overall wealth ratio change from your
    empire
    >>compared to the others in 5,10 and 20 turns?

    >Ok, that is spoken more exactly. "Return" not only contains mc for me
    but
    >also revenues in area, speed, and so on.

    Oh well you see my main point on this is that you always need to
    compare
    your return/wealth (or however you want to call it...) to the other
    empires.
    Otherwise you might get the impression that you did fine, eventhough
    you did not.
    And I thought you already learnt that lesson - in AS that is.
    You see, from your point of view, even after I did get nearly 750 k kt
    of spice
    on my bases (which you were not aware of or did not believe as I did
    claim that the very
    same turn) you thought you did not too bad. I do not need to tell you
    the rest of the story,
    or do I?
  23. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Gabor Törö wrote:

    >With "warriors or builders" I meant players.

    You ought to be more exact. You see the player is in all
    those cases playing a race and I somehow do get the impression
    that you assume that players only have one style of playing which does
    not
    vary with the race played.

    > Most of the discussions about
    >balancing come from the very special experiences of players in their
    >function as warriors or builders.

    With a certain race.

    > A lot of voices about "Bot is too strong"
    >reflect a situation were a Bot could do what he wants.

    And I know of games where the Cents could do what he wanted, well
    at least nearly (and I guess he had more freedom to do as he so fit
    than the bots could)...


    >But as you ask it: A Cent should has a hard job in surviving in the
    long run
    >if there are still health high growth empires due to the RPs.

    Unless the setup totally favored races like the Cents, and the Cents
    horrible screwed
    up their strategy and invested most of their money from amorph popping
    in public
    spaceports to nearly match the growth of the healthy high growth race.


    > So a Cents
    >should be played more aggressively although also Cents as every other
    race
    >rely on a health economy

    Yep, I always had a healthy economy, but then again it was only a
    temporarily
    healthy economy (as amorphs are only a finite commodity).

    >But I never played them (but against them :( )

    and you did not do well I might add.
    I even thought about choking you on rps (if you would have played
    longer).
    And that while I would have had a hard time (considering the rps that
    is) if all the
    little borg drones would have been on 1 million colonist
    bases. Of course that move was out of question since maybe a handful
    (of these bases)
    would have only seen the next turn - even if you could have moved them
    out.

    >You should have more detailed
    >knowlegde about them.

    Have I?
  24. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1112619043.040628.78920@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

    Gabor Törö wrote:

    >>With "warriors or builders" I meant players.

    >You ought to be more exact.

    I do what I can.

    >With a certain race.

    I ought to be more exact.

    > A lot of voices about "Bot is too strong"
    >reflect a situation were a Bot could do what he wants.


    >>But I never played them (but against them :( )

    >and you did not do well I might add.

    So what? I was a bloody newbie.

    >>You should have more detailed
    >>knowlegde about them.

    >Have I?

    Yes.

    GFM GToeroe
  25. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1112618769.075629.125650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

    Gabor Törö wrote:
    >Certainly you speak with the background of your experiences which I
    miss.
    >But look:


    >Well first of all where have you seen me state that in case you build
    >cities you should

    Ok, it was late and I wanted to bring up fastly a sim. Ok I will try it again.

    >And then where have you seen me state that the Cent would sell spice
    >only on his bases?
    >It is actually preferable to sell them via pod to other bases - you can
    >sell
    >more that way.

    Cause I don't know if this selling works all the time. I rember sims where it did not work
    deterministically. And on the other side even if it works every turn with out failure rate it is a question if
    your enemies will allow you that all the time. And so I binded it to the own population.


    >So all in all I have to say that your are able to bring up academical
    >examples, but you see
    >I never doubted that, but you are nearly always coming up with the
    >wrong ones (or inferior ones).

    Respect for your ability and magnitude to directly say what you are thinking. And if you find a way to stay a gentlemen and find
    out another way to tell the same but in way acceptable for your partner of communication you also would ensure continuouity in
    communication assumed you really rely on a true one, do you?

    >>Man, but not every turn.

    Look back at Abundant Standard, did I not attack around and before turn
    20 many races within maybe 3 turns (the funny thing about that is that
    I could not
    hurt the lerchin price, only the kerria price - btw. I did earn quiet a
    little bit
    money by gathering kerrias in that game).


    >be really developed. You see in my Cent games at one time I was at war
    >with nearly
    >everyone else (do I have to remind you of the totally ineffective
    >Anti-Centaur Alliance in
    >a certain game where you I guess belonged to it),

    The events the games containing you as a player were, are and will be sets of zero measure.

    >And what do you do if you suspect that nearly all types are affected
    >by it? And only about one is not (since we are still speaking about

    Ok, then we have globally falling market. But do you think I'm not right claiming again that it is a rare case?

    >> And often the
    >>exodus of a race can be seen by a slowly falling mean price
    >>which cannot be explained by the pressing effect of type which are
    >>binded to high growth races.

    >There is actually a very logical explanation for it - and I could have
    >told you that at the time it was introduced (and I guess I have done that at
    >least indirect...).

    Now you underestimate me really.


    >I never claimed otherwise.

    ok.

    >Oh well you see my main point on this is that you always need to
    >compare your return/wealth (or however you want to call it...) to the other
    >empires. Otherwise you might get the impression that you did fine, eventhough
    >you did not.

    You are right. But that's a harder job and demands a real time consumpting analysis if you are not experienced with most races.

    GFM GToeroe
  26. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Gabor Törö wrote:
    > "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:1112618769.075629.125650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > >that most of your population is there, 100 PSPs will give you a
    growth
    > >rate
    > >boost of 200 (or with other words a growth rate of 10 % - for that
    > >base) - which would stay at that
    > >percentage until you have more than 10 million colonists on that
    base.
    > >Costs:
    >
    > Where did you get this? Which host? Host51 or what?

    Well it is written in the help files (under Public Spaceports). It is
    also mentioned that robot no longer get Colonists this way (rather
    recent host change 2004) in the bugfix history.
    And then I do not know since when this is the case, but I can assure
    you that it has been this way even before I started playing v4.
    It is just written a little bit different (in the help files).
    In any case I did use PSP this way in Wandering Tribes.
    Maybe it does not work if happiness is too low or you get only a
    fraction of it, but with base happiness around 300 you do not have a
    problem to get the max (in any case I did not). And no it is not
    host51.

    Maybe you should just try it and not be so doubtful.
  27. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1112618769.075629.125650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

    >that most of your population is there, 100 PSPs will give you a growth
    >rate
    >boost of 200 (or with other words a growth rate of 10 % - for that
    >base) - which would stay at that
    >percentage until you have more than 10 million colonists on that base.
    >Costs:

    Where did you get this? Which host? Host51 or what?

    GFM GToeroe
  28. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1112702109.955844.203170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

    Gabor Törö wrote:
    > "Nameless" <unknown_ai@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:1112618769.075629.125650@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > >that most of your population is there, 100 PSPs will give you a
    growth
    > >rate
    > >boost of 200 (or with other words a growth rate of 10 % - for that
    > >base) - which would stay at that
    > >percentage until you have more than 10 million colonists on that
    base.
    > >Costs:
    >
    > Where did you get this? Which host? Host51 or what?


    >Maybe you should just try it and not be so doubtful.

    See latest thread...

    GFM GToeroe
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