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Identifying the source of massive CPU temp increase.

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April 29, 2011 6:10:13 AM

Recently, I've been afflicted with slow PC speeds, literally crippling speeds that have prevented me from doing much of anything except idling.

When the problem first occurred, I was only browsing when everything halted to a stop and I had to restart. I decided to check the temps and realized that for my q9400, they were extremely high (60-70c idle).

What I don't understand is, my build has worked thus far with no hitches, so other than, say, a CPU fan failure - what else could cause a sudden flare-up in temp? I checked my fan, it seems to be working just fine, I've also cleaned out my case as it was really dusty, reorganized all the wires for better air flow and reseated the stock Intel heatsink with AS5...thinking that would fix the problem, but it has not.

Could another component be on its way out, causing the high temps? I really don't know the standard procedure for this sort of thing, but it's eluding me. My regular temps were about 42-45c idle to 52-55c under load.

Hope you all can help. I'd rather not buy another CPU fan if the problem lies elsewhere.

EDIT: I went into setup mode (I have a P5B-E Asus mobo) and double-checked all the fan speeds, they're all on performance mode on the highest RPMs and yet I'm still idling at 60c. Gaaaaah, what could it be?

More about : identifying source massive cpu temp increase

a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 7:17:31 AM

With time the efficiency of TIM to disappiate heat would decrease.
Have you really though of installing new TIM?
Most TIM would last around 3 to 5 years.And according to me you need new thermal paste.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 7:33:05 AM

Z he did do new paste with AS5
and even before Artci Silver 5 break in period they wouldnt be that high

I am wondering if it is not a northbridge problem
check the big chip/heatsink closest to CPU

also download Coretemp (freeware just google it)
and use that so we are on same page
not all temp programs the same

go into Coretemp options and find option to display
distance to tjmax
your distance to tjmax is a better indicator
of temp
as it gets hotter the distance gets less
so 20 and under is real hot
while above 20 is fine
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 7:36:09 AM

king smp said:
Z he did do new paste with AS5
and even before Artci Silver 5 break in period they wouldnt be that high

I am wondering if it is not a northbridge problem
check the big chip/heatsink closest to CPU

also download Coretemp (freeware just google it)
and use that so we are on same page
not all temp programs the same

go into Coretemp options and find option to display
distance to tjmax
your distance to tjmax is a better indicator
of temp
as it gets hotter the distance gets less
so 20 and under is real hot
while above 20 is fine

I didnt know AS5 was a TIM.
Yes, first as King has stated you could try to get readings from a different number of monitoring softwares.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 7:51:06 AM

I have spent countless useless hours researching
temperature monitoring
years of my life
to find out it is almost useless
really all you need is distance to TJMax
dont worry about idle
TJmax is the temp that thermal throttling occurs
5 c past TJmax is CPU shutdown
as your distance to TJmax decreases
and you get within 20c of reaching TJmax
(example if TJmax is 100c and you reach 80c it would read 20c distance to TJmax)
whatever your tjmax is doesnt really matter
coretemp will read the signal off of DTS (digital thermal sensor) directly
and report the number
so as long as you dont go lower than 20-15c you are fine
your chip will live a long and happy life :) 
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 7:54:15 AM

also intel has stated that the idle temp reported by DTS to temp programs
has a poor accuracy
with 45nm cpus it can be a +/- 10c difference
max load temp is only temp that matters
also very hard to get a accurate TJmax number from Intel or web

FYI Tcase is safe load temp where it can run all day fine
that is the number Intel uses on spec sheets
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 8:03:30 AM

king smp said:
I have spent countless useless hours researching
temperature monitoring
years of my life
to find out it is almost useless
really all you need is distance to TJMax
dont worry about idle
TJmax is the temp that thermal throttling occurs
5 c past TJmax is CPU shutdown
as your distance to TJmax decreases
and you get within 20c of reaching TJmax
(example if TJmax is 100c and you reach 80c it would read 20c distance to TJmax)
whatever your tjmax is doesnt really matter
coretemp will read the signal off of DTS (digital thermal sensor) directly
and report the number
so as long as you dont go lower than 20-15c you are fine
your chip will live a long and happy life :) 

I am still learning buddy.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 8:20:56 AM

actually according to this from overclocking.net (great site)

": 299


Rep: 75
Unique Rep: 63

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tjmax was made up a few years ago by an intel software person in response to a question about desktop's unknown temp point where processor hot (PROCHOT#) is asserted. The term intel uses is TCC.

The CPU does not shut down when DTS=0, ie TCC/Tjmax is reached and prochot# is asserted, but it throttles, reducing frequency/voltage. It shuts down at 20-25C beyond TCC, or approximately 120 to 125C.

Quote from intel specs http://download.intel.com/design/pro...s/31873201.pdf

"An external signal, PROCHOT# (processor hot), is asserted when the processor core temperature has reached its maximum operating temperature. If the Thermal Monitor
is enabled, the TCC will be active when PROCHOT# is asserted....The TCC causes the processor to adjust its operating frequency (via the bus multiplier) and input voltage (via the VID signals). This combination of reduced frequency and VID results in a reduction to the processor power consumption."

http://download.intel.com/design/pro...x/31873401.pdf
"In the event of a catastrophic cooling failure, the processor will automatically shut down when the silicon temperature has exceeded the TCC activation temperature by approximately 20 to 25 °C. At this point the system bus signal THERMTRIP# goes active and power must be removed from the processor."

Many of us on xtremesystems have had our cpus at DTS=0 and beyond. On my E8400, at DTS=0, fluke or temp probe to casing of CPU reads ~94-95C, and at that point throttling (decrease in frequency occurs). My cpu shutdown when casing of my CPU read 118C (tjunction cant be lower), roughly 23C beyond the point where DTS=0.

In attached pic, you can see I am beyond DTS=0, this was done before realtemp existed, with coretemp. Unfortunately pic of IR gun is unclear...very difficult to angle camera just right to get all in focus...but point is cpu is not shutdown and I am past Tjmax/TCC. "

as you can see this person (sounds like they know what they are doing)
states 20c beyond tj max is complete shutdown
at TJmax throttle occurs

so if 100c is Tjmax about 120-125 is complete shutdown
at 100c is thermal throttling
at 75-80 is safe 100% load operating temps

dont get fooled by temp programs

that way lies obsessive compulsive nightmares
(years worryin about idle/load temps)


in the case of original poster
if he is reading 60-70c on idle it is probably
running hot
it hitting throttling (tj max)

is that stock Intel heatsink/fan
they are famous for lousy pushpin design
and very hard to seat correctly
very well the HSF is not contacting cpu surface due
to this

Stock intel fan? yes or no?

you already did this

cleaned the HSF
new paste
check fans operation and speed (though your ears are your best
diagnostic tool- do the fans spin up fast? would definitly hear
them with throttling occuring)
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 2:03:21 PM

How long did you have the computer running normal temps before this overheating problem occurred?

Or did you just put this machine together recently?
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April 29, 2011 2:06:42 PM

Thanks for all the responses, I'm surprised at how many this received. I did check all the fans, everything sounds better than it did before I opened my PC up to troubleshoot - which was typical, my PC sounds like a vacuum. I made sure to seat the HSF properly, and didn't have any difficulties putting it in, it's as snug as it can be. Which is also interesting, because before I reseated the HSF, it wasn't - one of the pins wasn't all the way in.

So, here's a screenshot I took with CoreTemp with *one* tab open in Google Chrome just a few minutes after booting up.

http://oi52.tinypic.com/286wthd.jpg

The load seems very high for just one modest page with text and very few images, no? I'm idling at about 45c it says, soon as I open Chrome up, the temps skyrocket. I checked the task manager to see if the CPU load was being supplemented by something else, but everything appears to be normal.

EDIT: I got this new CPU about a year ago, and other than the recent problems, I'd say it was working just fine. Granted, after I installed it and ran diagnostics for a time after getting it, I quickly forgot about monitoring it. It's possible the temps have "degraded" over time and that I'm just now noticing how high they've gotten.

Here's another screenshot just after I closed Chrome.

http://i56.tinypic.com/29okena.jpg

When left to idle, the temps will drop to 43c, so why are the under load temps so disproportionately high?

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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 3:49:51 PM

What's the room temp?

Are you sure the fan is running full rpm?

Idle temps should be no more than 40c even with Chrome open, unless the room is very hot. If you have that much load with Chrome open, something is wrong. Are you sure your system wasn't running an antivirus scan or Windows update or something?

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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 4:04:47 PM

2288468,10,881300 said:
Thanks for all the responses, I'm surprised at how many this received. I did check all the fans, everything sounds better than it did before I opened my PC up to troubleshoot - which was typical, my PC sounds like a vacuum. I made sure to seat the HSF properly, and didn't have any difficulties putting it in, it's as snug as it can be. Which is also interesting, because before I reseated the HSF, it wasn't - one of the pins wasn't all the way in.

So, here's a screenshot I took with CoreTemp with *one* tab open in Google Chrome just a few minutes after booting up.

http://oi52.tinypic.com/286wthd.jpg

The load seems very high for just one modest page with text and very few images, no? I'm idling at about 45c it says, soon as I open Chrome up, the temps skyrocket. I checked the task manager to see if the CPU load was being supplemented by something else, but everything appears to be normal.

EDIT: I got this new CPU about a year ago, and other than the recent problems, I'd say it was working just fine. Granted, after I installed it and ran diagnostics for a time after getting it, I quickly forgot about monitoring it. It's possible the temps have "degraded" over time and that I'm just now noticing how high they've gotten.

Here's another screenshot just after I closed Chrome.

http://i56.tinypic.com/29okena.jpg

Please
in coretemps options-advanced-check off "show distance to TJmax"
then look at your idle
also download Prime95 and run the small FFTs test
while running the test watch your distance to TJmax
a heat up test takes 30 minutes
after about 15 you will be about at max temp
look at coretemp
if your not less than 20c to TJmax
dont worry about your temps

Just a piece of friendly advice :) 
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April 29, 2011 4:55:46 PM

geekapproved said:
What's the room temp?

Are you sure the fan is running full rpm?

Idle temps should be no more than 40c even with Chrome open, unless the room is very hot. If you have that much load with Chrome open, something is wrong. Are you sure your system wasn't running an antivirus scan or Windows update or something?


About 65c, it's rather chilly, not to mention I took the side cover off my PC to alleviate the temps a tad.

I had nothing open except AVG, which wasn't scanning. So, there seems to be some conflicting advice in here, on one hand, you say I shouldn't be over 40c idle, and king smp says I should not worry as long as it's not 20c or lower 'til TJMax.

What do you all think would be causing this excessive strain?

I will run that test and give you the results, smp.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 4:57:20 PM

Even though its nothing to worry about but i still think its strange your temps could be soo high.Unless your living in the desert.
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April 29, 2011 4:58:30 PM

I have a core 2 quad q9400, don't those run rather hot?
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 4:58:48 PM

Could also be the TIM may be a bit too thick.
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April 29, 2011 5:01:42 PM

I made sure not to over-apply it, I just did a horizontal line as demonstrated on the site.

smp, I ran the test and got up to like 90-95c instantly so I turned it off quickly. So high!
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:03:16 PM

Renulph said:
I have a core 2 quad q9400, don't those run rather hot?


Not hotter than my old overclocked Q6600 and it never went over 60c under prime95. That's in a 80f room, which is very warm. Of course I had a big aftermarket fan.

There's no reason you should have temps that high in a cold room and there's no reason you should have to have your case cover off.

I suggest you address your case cooling and airflow and if that doesn't fix the problem, get a new aftermarket fan like a hyper 212+.


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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:05:14 PM

Quote:
The Q9400, on the other hand, only reached 51.7C under full load while it was overclocked at 3.84Ghz at 1.4125V. While the voltages on the Q9400 are lower than the Q6600, the Q6600 hit 53.5C under stock speed and stock voltages (1.3V). This shows that the new 45nm architecture processors do produce less heat compared to the 65nm processors. Both of these processors, however, have a TDP of 95W.


http://www.pcshoptalk.com/content.php?170-Introducing-I...
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April 29, 2011 5:10:39 PM

See the edit above for the test results.

Anyhow, I have two intake fans and a big 120mm Silverstone exhaust, so I think that's adequate, I already adjusted any wire obstructions (although they never posed a problem before). I'm starting to think something could be wrong with the CPU itself, 'cause the fan is fine and is spinning at 2000 rpm. Could something have "burnt out" within the CPU, causing the high temps? I'm just postulating, but I really can't think of anything else.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:13:52 PM

Renulph said:
See the edit above for the test results.

Anyhow, I have two intake fans and a big 120mm Silverstone exhaust, so I think that's adequate, I already adjusted any wire obstructions (although they never posed a problem before). I'm starting to think something could be wrong with the CPU itself, 'cause the fan is fine and is spinning at 2000 rpm. Could something have "burnt out" within the CPU, causing the high temps? I'm just postulating, but I really can't think of anything else.

You could try the cpu on another pc.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:13:59 PM

Cpu going bad is VERY rare.

What voltage is your cpu set to? Maybe your mobo is failing and giving the cpu too much voltage?

You should always have more exhaust than intake. Intake isn't that important because the exhaust fans will pull in passively all the air they need, without intake fans.

I don't even use an intake fan, I have 2 large exhaust, one in the back and one on the top, plus the psu.

What case do you have?

I don't know man, something is definitely seriously wrong.

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April 29, 2011 5:18:26 PM

Mobo failing is very possible, given that this one is over 4 years old now (Asus P5B-E). My case is a standard ATX Centurion 5.

The exhaust fan, I wouldn't worry too much about it, this thing moves serious air (hence why my computer is so loud, all due to this thing). 80-110 cfm at 2400 rpm, I think. (EDITED for lol-worthy error)

How else can I test if my motherboard is failing?
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:21:30 PM

What I'm saying is too much intake could be causing turbulence in the case. I would just try it with the exhaust fan and see if there's a difference.

That being said, it's probably not your issue. Download cpu-z and see what your cpu voltage is while it's under load. What I mean is, while your looking at cpu-z, it will likely show the cpu speed and voltage under speedstep which clocks the cpu down to save power. You'll need to put some kind of load on the cpu and check the voltage when you see the cpu clocks at the full speed.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:21:57 PM

You could try to test the usb ports that are on the mobo.At the back of the case.That is one sign that the mobo is failing.
Try to transfer some data from port to port and if there is a repeated failure it is a sign that the mobo is failing.
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April 29, 2011 5:34:21 PM

1.080v normally and 1.144v when it's heatin' up at about 70c under load.

Funny you should mention the USB ports, I've had some problems with them in the past.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:40:34 PM

ghnader hsmithot said:
You could try to test the usb ports that are on the mobo.At the back of the case.That is one sign that the mobo is failing.
Try to transfer some data from port to port and if there is a repeated failure it is a sign that the mobo is failing.


+1
that is good advice
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:40:52 PM

Remember to use the ports where the mobo is at.Not in the frontpanel.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:45:47 PM

king smp said:
+1
that is good advice

Thanks!
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April 29, 2011 5:54:04 PM

Okay, I plugged in two USB drives and sent data between them on each of the four backpanel USB ports. No errors.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 5:59:11 PM

Sorry i ran out of methods..
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April 29, 2011 6:06:01 PM

That looks useful, but it's out of my budget unfortunately. :( 

Maybe someone else will have more ways to test my mobo's grit.
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a b à CPUs
April 29, 2011 6:22:47 PM

Well there is Hirens Diagnostic Boot CD
which has many diagonistic tools including motherboard
It downloads as an ISO and you burn the disk
and then boot off that disk
warning-nortons says there is a virus but it removed and from my reading
it is a false positive

there is also the Ultimate Boot CD -UBCD

just google them

I use them for diagnostics and lowlevel hard wipes/format

with Hirens I like around version 10.x or so

be careful because you are playing around on the Dark Side :) 
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April 29, 2011 7:00:12 PM

I'm best pals with the dark side, except the dark side tends to not want to help when I get into situations like these. I'll look into it.

If you guys have any other ideas, feel free to keep suggesting them.
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April 29, 2011 8:08:15 PM

Okay, I may have made a small breakthrough. Go figure, I said it started while I was browsing, never thought that it could've been GOOGLE CHROME. I don't know what's up with that browser, but it eats my CPU up and Opera doesn't. With Opera, it stays between 45-51c - I looked up high cpu usage with Chrome and saw some people with similar problems and some worse (100% load).

Still doesn't explain how I reached 90c during prime95, but at least I discovered Chrome is only exacerbating the issue.
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April 30, 2011 6:27:47 AM

I'm getting 30% of load on one core while idling at desktop with nothing open which isn't normal, is there another way besides the task manager of checking what's causing the strain?
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a b à CPUs
April 30, 2011 5:27:32 PM

sysinternals-freeware-google
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a c 123 à CPUs
April 30, 2011 8:12:33 PM

you did set bios to optimum defaults...
sum1 may have been messing with your voltages.

also if your not idling at 1-2 percent then check for malware.
malwarebytes and avira are a good jumping off point for scanning.
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April 30, 2011 10:05:51 PM

I've checked using superantispyware, nothing other than the typical tracking cookies one would acquire from simply browsing.

I've reset my bios settings since the issue started, so I don't know if that's the problem either. Only I use this PC, too.

I guess the stock HSF isn't cutting it, so what would you all recommend for an LGA775 HSF? Preferably under 40 bucks?
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a b à CPUs
April 30, 2011 11:50:32 PM

Renulph said:
I've checked using superantispyware, nothing other than the typical tracking cookies one would acquire from simply browsing.

I've reset my bios settings since the issue started, so I don't know if that's the problem either. Only I use this PC, too.

I guess the stock HSF isn't cutting it, so what would you all recommend for an LGA775 HSF? Preferably under 40 bucks?


coolermaster hyper 212 +
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


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May 1, 2011 5:15:30 PM

I'm curious, since I feel like this could be important. When I bought my CPU, it was OEM and didn't come with a cooler, I bought the HSF separately. Is it possible that the one I bought was designed for older single or dual core CPUs and not quad cores? Or are all Intel HSFs the same design?
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May 1, 2011 5:21:30 PM

Best answer selected by Renulph.
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a b à CPUs
May 1, 2011 7:11:24 PM

Renulph said:
I'm curious, since I feel like this could be important. When I bought my CPU, it was OEM and didn't come with a cooler, I bought the HSF separately. Is it possible that the one I bought was designed for older single or dual core CPUs and not quad cores? Or are all Intel HSFs the same design?


That is possible
I do know that C2Qs run hot
considering how much a C2Q costs nowadays buying
a aftermarket HSF would be a good investment

The Hyper 212 + is the number one choice for less expensive coolers
and you could move it to a new build later so it is not wasted

Thank you for selecting me as Best Answer though
I am not sure I helped you :) 
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May 1, 2011 10:56:41 PM

I learned a few things, particularly the bit about TJMax, so thanks. Now I have some useful apps for future use.
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a b à CPUs
May 2, 2011 2:56:32 AM

Good luck
Dont be a stranger :) 
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May 8, 2011 4:00:49 AM

Sure, I'll let you know if the problem is solved once I install the new HSF - which I'm ordering right now.
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a b à CPUs
May 8, 2011 4:03:22 AM

Which HSF did you buy?
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May 23, 2011 6:27:46 PM

Got the hyper 212+, and my problem is officially fixed. My temps are comfortably at 33c idle (two cores a bit higher than that though) and under load it seldom goes over 40c.
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