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Game Balance

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Anonymous
March 27, 2005 2:06:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

How has game balance been lately?

Has anyone noticed any races that are still way over the top or ones
that are way too weak?

Which race is the weakest and with is the strongest?

Tim

More about : game balance

March 27, 2005 10:31:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Lordfire wrote:
> The recent changes to the Rebels are hard to judge for me so far.
> There's probably no race to strong right now and if there is, it is
the
> Rebels.
>

There are a few more candidates.

> Among the 3rd party races the Aczanny are still too weak and the
Draconians
> still stand no chance in normal games.
> (Always assuming that they are not played by the best players
available -
> who have shown that it *is* possibe to win with these races (given
the right
> setup, that is)).
>

And I do not agree with your perception of the Aczanny. You see there
are a few races whose power rating is similiar - ie. the University
Alliance.
And maybe you want wait to hear 'til Lord Owl tells us his experiences
with the Aczanny.

> I think for both 3rd party races there exist updated version from the

> creator...
>

No, for the Dracs does not exist an updated version of the race pack -
at least not from the Creator. But there exists one from Andreas Benne
(I suggest that in case a discussion comes up about these changes that
all of you do not forget your manners.).

IMO the Aczanny do not need another boost. Tweaking the starting
position under normal host is in any case enough for the Aczanny. For
the Dracs it would not be enough.

> The only thing I (once again) really critizise about VGAP is, that
you make
> way too much money with contraband. It doesn't unbalance the game,
but it
> created a different balance, and makes the game hardly credible.
Everybody
> here agrees that you make more than 50% of your income with
contraband in
> most circumstances, I think.

Yes contra income is mostly too high. But no that is not as you might
assume because of contra trading, you need starting capital to do so.
(Luckily I am not everybody).

> And in some situations you make up to 95% of
> it. Especially for newbies this is a difficult thing to learn. Even
for
> people who played VGAP for years (like myself) it is still hard to
accept.
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 11:34:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

The solorian is over the top,

his ability to make money with growth and contraband is far to strong.

The max growthrate should reduced to 175(crystal).



Kadesh
Related resources
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 2:18:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Race balance? Hm, difficult question.

Perhaps the strongest race around, when you're willing to invest into
some micromanagement, are the Crystals. It's a real pain to wage war
against them (except if you have access to glory devices). Fortunately
it's also a major pain for the Crystal to use his forces effective,
so it's about even. Nonetheless, if the Crystal player is willing to
do some work, there are few races which can keep up with him.

As a corollary, minefields are of a very great (and sometimes
underestimated) importance. Every race with a cloaked barb layer is
very very dangerous. From memory this includes the Birds, Stormers,
Lizards and Peoples. If both parties in a war use minefields with all
due consequence, warfare gets very bothersome (independent of cloaked
minelayers).
Cloakers can intercept enemy fleets and lay cloaked minefields at their
position without getting noticed. Next turn the enemy fleet continues
in ignorance with full speed - badaboom. Instant disaster. And
there's no real way to protect yourself against such a thing. This
can slow down Planets into a cumbersome crawl.
Possibilities for change include a reduced mine hit rate, the allowance
to sweep cloaked barbs, increasing scan noise by minelaying, or a delay
for activating cloaked minefields (i.e. minefields decloak at end of
turn). The last one is nice and simple. I like it very much.
Such a change would also do much to strengthen the (indeed a bit weak)
Aczanny. Their greatest unbalance is an incapacity to cope with cloaked
barbs, heightened to an extreme by their very light ships.

What drags down the Federation is a lack of any money making gimmick.
They are the only core race with that problem except the Crystals
(which are so strong due to their minefields that it doesn't bother
them). Due to their other strengths the Feds don't need a big
moneyboost, but without even a small one I believe them to be the
weakest core race.
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 3:13:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

The recent changes to the Rebels are hard to judge for me so far.
There's probably no race to strong right now and if there is, it is the
Rebels.

Among the 3rd party races the Aczanny are still too weak and the Draconians
still stand no chance in normal games.
(Always assuming that they are not played by the best players available -
who have shown that it *is* possibe to win with these races (given the right
setup, that is)).

I think for both 3rd party races there exist updated version from the
creator...

The only thing I (once again) really critizise about VGAP is, that you make
way too much money with contraband. It doesn't unbalance the game, but it
created a different balance, and makes the game hardly credible. Everybody
here agrees that you make more than 50% of your income with contraband in
most circumstances, I think. And in some situations you make up to 95% of
it. Especially for newbies this is a difficult thing to learn. Even for
people who played VGAP for years (like myself) it is still hard to accept.

Lordfire

"cocomax" <cocomax@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111903591.331575.49710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> How has game balance been lately?
>
> Has anyone noticed any races that are still way over the top or ones
> that are way too weak?
>
> Which race is the weakest and with is the strongest?
>
> Tim
>
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 4:38:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

cocomax wrote:
> How has game balance been lately?
>
> Has anyone noticed any races that are still way over the top or ones
> that are way too weak?
>
> Which race is the weakest and with is the strongest?
>
> Tim

What do you mean with lately ?
Some games ends at turn 40-50 and some needs much more turns, say over 100.

Under which circumstances ? Big or small or middle map and under which
host settings do you mean ? That makes a big difference.

If I remember right, some races are designed to be "quick starter" and
"weaker" at the end.

Which alliances are used in a game, make a big difference or how good
the allies work together.

Most races can become superior under the right circumstances in the late
game.

IMHO it is not possible to give an always correct answer to your easy
question.

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 4:39:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

>
> IMHO it is not possible to give an always correct answer to your easy
> question.
>

In that case you have answered his question with 'no' :) 

Lordfire
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 7:07:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Lordfire wrote:
>>IMHO it is not possible to give an always correct answer to your easy
>>question.
>>
>
>
> In that case you have answered his question with 'no' :) 
>
> Lordfire

I haven't wrote (said) that.

What if a race exist which never reach the late game (maybe to weak at
the beginning and quickly eliminated)? Then I can nothing say about this
race in the late game. Maybe if it come (under a competent player or the
others are so "bad") that it easy dominate the/many/each game.

So no answer is not no or yes. It's more like unknown.

IMO I can give an answer at VP based games, there are some races to
"weak" and have problems to win any of this games under "normal"
conditions. It's hard to eliminate all races with higher growth rate
before the game ends. But this races may have better changes at
"one-man-standing" games and so I understand Tim's question.

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 8:23:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Sorry Tim but your question is to ambiguous for an easy answer.
However, I will attempt to write down my opinion as an average player.

What races are too strong still? Well, I think that it all depends on
what game rules and map the host is using. Under the right
circumstances almost all races are able to win. However, the thing I
like about planets is that their is usually a counter race to another
race ie EE V's Rebels, Stormers V's cystals. So if players pick their
enemies right and have the right tactics anyone has a chance of
winning. Being on the front foot can also never be underestimated as a
strategy against stronger races.

In saying the above there are some weak races. Take the Feds for
example, they are such a promising race but do not live up to their
potential. Lord Owl's response is worth listening too as I think that
the Federation should be the pinup race of the planets universe and so
therefore should be ajusted in order to make them better. Other weak
races are the Azzanny, Drac's and even the UA in my humble opinion.

I guess I should have a go at answering that contra training argument
that again has raised its ugly head. Lordfire has already mentioned
that the 'everyone can use it' it arguement so I won't bother
mentioning it here. I don't use it that much but I don't care if others
use it at the same time. I think that it is a nice thing to have
because of one simple reason, time. That is to say it speeds the game
up to points where you can get to high techs quicker, bigger fighter
wings, and even tech ten ships fleets, which is really useful in a slow
turn based game like planets.

I have to say from a personal point of view the game is more exciting
for me with more ships, fighters and the like then going through the
boring stages of one on one ship battles with lasers or merc rockets as
your main weapons. The contra market trading is also a good defence
against those early predators like the EE, Rebels, Cents and others who
can quickly overwhelm in the early stages, as it gives you the chance
to buy mechs, fighters, and even ships.

To finish I think what overbalances this game is the inter race
trading. I have heard many ex-players complain about this. Even currant
players wish that races are played with their own abilities. However,
in saying this I suspect that there is nothing you can do Tim to stop
this completely. It is therefore up to the players and hosts to enforce
this. So without preaching morality to everyone, the players within the
game are perhaps the biggest inbalance in the game, just like all
others multi-player games I guess.

Robert
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 10:18:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I have some ideas for game adjustments. . .

Feds make more money with their working Agrovators, maybe 10mc per
farm, would that be enough?

Readjust the contraband market, making it a bit flater, maybe up to 50%
flater. That would reduce gains from the market by 50%.

Have the Colonies of man produce 200mc per 100000 colonists that they
have on ships and increase their on board colonist growth rate to 4% to
6%.

Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of the
time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The Robots
would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success rate
of 100% down to 25%.

Robots would be given a scarey new power, having to do with their
fighters.

Robots would have free fighters produced by insectoid nests.

Tim
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 1:49:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

As a newby, I found high growth races like Solorian advantageous and
possibly unbalanced both resource point wise and in income as against
low growth races like Dracs. Then again I find EE difficult 2 play..
but I'm learning GA for income as gave up with Contra...though its
sounding like its a one way street to riches so I might start investing
that 10,000mc turn 8 to make money....:) 

Guessing from the HW's I'm scanning that have multiples of my
population at turn 10 plus and rather large cash incomes, storage
and...yes contra stock piles that I could only dream of.....contra
trading should be limited...as in limits to how much u can buy a
turn....:) 

Cheers.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 2:27:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Hmmm... how about a change of the Holodeck.. (as previously discuessed)
-- make those with Holodecks immune to SIREN HARP (or something else
useful)

Some other doodle stuff in my head.

Privateers - because of the new(well relatively) limits of maintaining
farms reduce the amount of food that the Food Grappler in an MBR can
take to say 750 Kt per turn rather than filling its entire hold with
Food

Contra - the flatter ratio seems good.. I would of course prefer if the
negative aspects of contra be returned ( the increase of crime when you
sell them but depending on how much contra was sold rather than a fixed
rate -- still I guess other more experienced people will deal with
that)

....

Dracs need help.. just cant figure out how though.. perhaps growth rate
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 5:17:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

"Kadesh" <christian_hennicke@web.de> wrote in message news:<1111937642.511183.57440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
> The solorian is over the top,
> his ability to make money with growth and contraband is far to strong.
> The max growthrate should reduced to 175(crystal).

I would have to agree that the Solorian is a very powerful race, maybe
too powerful on most game setups. Only low-food games limit this race
significantly. Both races have some gimmicks, but what makes Solorians
stand out is their growth paired with abilities that enhance it. But
let's start with something to support this argument.
I will use the Crystals abilities when comparing what they have.
First of all, growth rate. Both have about the same, with the Solorian
getting a bit higher on 100 temp planets. But the difference comes in
the way the Sols are able to use this growth rate more effectively.
-Both heat up planets
-Solorians have hyper-drive capable freighters, while Crystals don't.
So Solorians take territory faster. And when transferring larger
amounts of colonists Sol colonists have to spend less time in pods not
breeding. Oh yeah, and the Ground Base Chunnel too.
-Solorian have better training rates, and their troops and HG are much
much better
-Sols have a normal farming economy as a basis, but Crystals have a
special economy. Granted the Crystal lathes are better with SW Amper,
but that requires allies. Without it's much more stressful (pun
intended)
-On top of it all the Solorians have labour camps

If I were to propose a simple answer to this, it would be to remove
the Sols ability to heat up planets with colonists. This way they
would have to be much more selective about where to live, naturally
decreasing their growth.
This would be a good change, because then the Sols would actually
have to seek out the high heat stars, much like the Crystals are
always looking for high HD stress planets.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 11:26:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Solarain growth rate is highly dependent upon star heat ->
on some maps is some positions too strong and on some maps in some
positions too weak.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 11:35:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I think 10 mc per farm with an Aggorvator would be too much. Maybe just
effectively double farm income like it does farm food?

Yes, making the contraband map 50% flatter would be an excelent idea.

I don't think the CoM needs increased powers.

Love the chance to sweep cloaked mines combined with not getting a
mesage about it idea.

Robot scarry power with their fighters = sometimes turn off opposing
high tech fighters [type 3] with their own type 3 one? [e.g. Pilot of
new Battlestar Galatica?]

If insectoid nests are going to be building free robot fighters, they
should be building the type 1s, and more over require a full insectoid
nest (100K insectoids) to produce any at all.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 11:38:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yes, but one of the things the Dracs does have is a lot of minesweepers
if I recall right. So the cumulative effects would greatly help a race
that needs it.

Remember that the way the Peeps were balanced was not by changes to the
Peeps themselves but by a systmetic reductation of power of many
devices, every one of which was on the Peeps ship list.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 12:27:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I carefully watch and study which races win most often. Here's my gut
feelings:

Solorians are too strong now. The growth rate is just too much. Given
their race powers I think they'd do fine with an average growth rate.
Right now they have the highest.

The Crystals win a lot, but I'm not sure how much of that has to do
with people not knowing how to beat them. For example, I often see
them winning newbie VP games. They are strong, but I wouldn't say
they're over the top.

Everyone says the Feds are weak due to the lack of a moneymaking
gimmick. I tenatively agree with them. But while they don't see the
winner's circle very much at all, I also don't see top players taking
them very often. I agree with an extra 10mc per Farm, but I don't see
the need to tie the bonus to Aggrovators.

The Aczanny need something. They aren't hopeless, but they have more
(big) disadvantages than advantages right now. The ability to sweep
cloaked minefields might be all they need. (Though I would so love to
see their homeworld start with 50k ghips for some early game punch.)

I'm still deciding on the Rebels and COM. It's very early for the
Rebels. The COM feels a bit weak, and I really like the proposed
changes.


As to the other proposed changes:

For cloaked minefields, how about just allowing people to sweep the
fields they scanned? Then enough scanners would make them sweepable,
instead of enough ships with a 25% sweep chance. And it would also
solve the perennial question "why isn't the field being swept?".

Flattening the contraband market would certainly help (and I would say
50% reduction MINIMUM), but what it's really missing is risk. And some
risk and watch people squirm. For example, a 5% chance that the
contraband traders take the buy order money and run without giving up
the goods.

I don't think the Robots really need a boost. Though free fighters is
cool.


Scytale
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 1:03:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

soxee wrote:
> Sorry Tim but your question is to ambiguous for an easy answer.
> However, I will attempt to write down my opinion as an average player.
>
> What races are too strong still? Well, I think that it all depends on
> what game rules and map the host is using. Under the right
> circumstances almost all races are able to win. However, the thing I
> like about planets is that their is usually a counter race to another
> race ie EE V's Rebels, Stormers V's cystals. So if players pick their
> enemies right and have the right tactics anyone has a chance of
> winning. Being on the front foot can also never be underestimated as a
> strategy against stronger races.

If I understand you right, I must always wait until one slot is free and
then can pick my race by knowing all other races in game. The poor
player who comes first is then an idiot cause he know nothing about the
other races in game. If all will do so, no more game would start cause
none would tart to fill the slots.

> In saying the above there are some weak races. Take the Feds for
> example, they are such a promising race but do not live up to their
> potential. Lord Owl's response is worth listening too as I think that
> the Federation should be the pinup race of the planets universe and so
> therefore should be ajusted in order to make them better. Other weak
> races are the Azzanny, Drac's and even the UA in my humble opinion.
>
> I guess I should have a go at answering that contra training argument
> that again has raised its ugly head. Lordfire has already mentioned
> that the 'everyone can use it' it arguement so I won't bother
> mentioning it here. I don't use it that much but I don't care if others
> use it at the same time. I think that it is a nice thing to have
> because of one simple reason, time. That is to say it speeds the game
> up to points where you can get to high techs quicker, bigger fighter
> wings, and even tech ten ships fleets, which is really useful in a slow
> turn based game like planets.

Don't agree. Some can use it better then others. Races with many colos
can sell more contra and have more influence on the price.
I would like to limit the contra buy to 1 K per Base, enough to attract
Ghips, Amps or to fill a Pod to send it to the enemy.

> I have to say from a personal point of view the game is more exciting
> for me with more ships, fighters and the like then going through the
> boring stages of one on one ship battles with lasers or merc rockets as
> your main weapons. The contra market trading is also a good defence
> against those early predators like the EE, Rebels, Cents and others who
> can quickly overwhelm in the early stages, as it gives you the chance
> to buy mechs, fighters, and even ships.

Agree, but some have mentioned before some time about 50K Wings of CoM
or Rebels. So not all seems to have the same meaning.

> To finish I think what overbalances this game is the inter race
> trading. I have heard many ex-players complain about this. Even currant
> players wish that races are played with their own abilities. However,
> in saying this I suspect that there is nothing you can do Tim to stop
> this completely. It is therefore up to the players and hosts to enforce
> this. So without preaching morality to everyone, the players within the
> game are perhaps the biggest inbalance in the game, just like all
> others multi-player games I guess.

Sorry, don't agree. Some races have so big gaps, that they must use
alien technology to close the gaps. Like Grav Mines to stop hypers or
Laser Mines against fighters or get hypers for a quicker exploration of
the map. And in "real" they would search and use such stuff to close
there gaps. Maybe except the Feds with their non use of cloaker
technologies or the Stormers with the honor and wishes to die in fights.
But this 2 races are the only ones which can board without Boarding
Laser. So for what, should they recycle the boarded ships or use it for
their best ?

For me it is uninteresting to eliminate a race which have no defense,
say I'm a the Rebel and fight the Feds or Stormer from a distance of
over 1000 LYs. Or from the other site, if I have no change to get Laser
Mines or Tachyonen Emitter I can give up to fight against a Bird.
There must be some sort of Tech transfer to give a race the hope to stop
an enemy or he can stop playing after the "wrong" enemy starts to attack
him.
For me it is a sign of cleverness or better tactics if I can eliminate a
race which use foreign ships too then to eliminate a "helpless" race. So
what may it say about someone who want to forbid the usage of foreign
ships.

IMHO Tim make the goods a bit to much, as he change that BLs no longer
work for all by a host change. Some races can never get / use a boarding
ship now and that make the Death Spec nearly uninteresting for me in my
games.

IMO there is enough (or to much) host settings with "Hull plan trading
(not) allowed" "alien hulls fight poorly (normally)" and the reduced
repairing of ships in the game to stop or slow down the usage of foreign
ships.

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 1:21:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

cocomax wrote:
> I have some ideas for game adjustments. . .
>
> Feds make more money with their working Agrovators, maybe 10mc per
> farm, would that be enough?

Sounds okay for me.


> Readjust the contraband market, making it a bit flater, maybe up to 50%
> flater. That would reduce gains from the market by 50%.

Why not limit the buying of contra to 1K on each Base ? Thats enough to
attract natives or fill a Pod to sell it to enemies.
>
> Have the Colonies of man produce 200mc per 100000 colonists that they
> have on ships and increase their on board colonist growth rate to 4% to
> 6%.

Not sure about the long term influence in a game.

> Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of the
> time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The Robots
> would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success rate
> of 100% down to 25%.

What do you mean here. Each minesweeper ship have a chance of 25% of
success ? Then I must send out only enough ships to be nearly sure that
the cloaked mines are swept. Say groups of 4 minesweeper (not so good in
probability so maybe need 1-2 more ships).
I used cloaked Mines too and find them not so good if the enemy use
them. So for it and against it at the same time.

But AFAIR the Robos have no minesweeper so this would not much help them
and they have no cloaked mine layer that their enemies always can know
where a just laid minefield is and their minefields can only be cloaked
one turn after laying. so IMO no great disadvantage or advantage for the
Robos.


> Robots would be given a scarey new power, having to do with their
> fighters.
>
> Robots would have free fighters produced by insectoid nests.

Without the meaning and or the formulas I can nothing say about the
above 2 changes. But the Robos are so weak now that they need an upgrade ?

Bye-Bye JoSch.
March 28, 2005 2:10:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

cocomax wrote:
> I have some ideas for game adjustments. . .
>
> Feds make more money with their working Agrovators, maybe 10mc per
> farm, would that be enough?

I like it. It still takes 5 turns to pay for its self. What if you
also had it work like a Soil Reformer every 20 or so improve farm
rating by one.


> Have the Colonies of man produce 200mc per 100000 colonists that they
> have on ships and increase their on board colonist growth rate to 4%
to
> 6%.

Do you mean growth rate of 1.04 and 1.06?

> Tim
March 28, 2005 3:53:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

joncnunn@yahoo.com wrote:
> Yes, but one of the things the Dracs does have is a lot of
minesweepers
> if I recall right. So the cumulative effects would greatly help a
race
> that needs it.
>
> Remember that the way the Peeps were balanced was not by changes to
the
> Peeps themselves but by a systmetic reductation of power of many
> devices, every one of which was on the Peeps ship list.

The Dracs have not only many minesweepers, but most of these
ships have also barbatic minelayers. So the changed sweeping rules,
would both
help and hurt them. Not as for ie. the RCS and Aczanny whom it would
only help.
In any case it would not change much for the Dracs neither to the good
nor to the bad.

Basically the Dracs have many (slow and) cheap ships (except for the
parts),
most of them will fairly easily blow up, since they are not too sturdy.
They are also able since many of their ships have pod bays to take
their wreckage
with them, to easily replace the ships at a base, with just a Goverment
Center (for the money production) and
Military Spaceport (and enough Crew on the base).
Problem(s) with this is that in case a Scav is near the wreckage would
end
up in their hands and otherwise they still would need to wait one turn
to set
a capture target and take the pods with them - and in most cases
they will not be able to tow them along otherwise,
since their tow beams are too weak.

So one possible change could be to have any Drac owned ship that
explodes and turns
up as wreckage, be Drac owned, if any Drac ship (in the fleet)
survives, and have it automatically
dock with any free pod bay.

The biggest problem with the Dracs is, that they are designed to gain
from prisoners - the problem is that they have considering the shiplist
and
their growth the worst ability from all races in the game to do so
(even peaceful races like
Cents, UA (not much better) and Feds while get prisoners easier (if
they want)).
Their ships are designed to be used in vast numbers (except for the
occasional
Krait),but neither their growth nor their economy supports that.
And they also have no real special ability (or more than one) which
would somehow offset
these lack/disadvantages.
They are designed as an aggressive race, but with the mobility of many
other races around,
they will mostly - unless the range to the enemy is not to big on game
start - be always
on the defensive or be just attacking already evacuated areas (that is
if the enemy is not too dumb
or the spot is vacated or he just has no ability to run away, but then
most likely not because of the
Drac, but because another race does inhabitate the area/region where
the victim could run to).
March 28, 2005 4:27:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Has anyone else noticed since the host change back in ?December? that
fighters (and ships) seem to orbit the center of the VCR screen and do
not actively move directly towards the enemy anymore (regardless of
attack settings)? I seem to recall that they flew more of less towards
their target before that host change. Now they just circle and only
fire weapons if their orbits "happen" to coincide with the enemy ships.

This has given fighter races (like CoM) a significant setback. I
recently had a VCR with a Virgo vs. a T-Rex. It should have been no
contest with my Virgo's 1500+ fighters, but the Virgo took a good
beating from the T-Rex until the T-Rex happened to move into the same
large orbit that my fighter's had been occupying since the beginning of
the battle, circling and circling and being useless.

This circling effect does not only affect fighters, but ships as well.
I can understand this type of effect over a planet, but even then the
effect is extreme.

That change, IMHO, has affected game balance in an adverse way.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 5:39:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

nospam schrieb:
> cocomax wrote:

>> Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of the
>> time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The Robots
>> would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success rate
>> of 100% down to 25%.
>
>
> What do you mean here. Each minesweeper ship have a chance of 25% of
> success ? Then I must send out only enough ships to be nearly sure that
> the cloaked mines are swept. Say groups of 4 minesweeper (not so good in
> probability so maybe need 1-2 more ships).
> I used cloaked Mines too and find them not so good if the enemy use
> them. So for it and against it at the same time.

If you take 4 minesweepers (if i remember right...) the chance to sweep
would be more like more like :

odds to sweep: 1/4
odds not to sweep: 1 - 1/4 = 3/4

-->

(1/4) + (3/4 * 1/4) + (3/4 * 3/4 * 1/4) + (3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 + 1/4)

= (64/256) + (48/64) + (36/256) + (27/256)

= 175 / 256

Well maybe I mixed something up, but what I'm trying to say is that you
can never be absoulutely sure to sweep the mines, if each ship's odds
are about 25%.


Cyio,

Jochen
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 6:17:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

In that case, the was to restore game balance is to fix the combat bug
instead of strengtheing fighter races.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 6:22:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

The other power the cylongs fighters have in the new series is
hyper-jumping fighters.
That would be scarry as well, and not quite over the top as the turning
off fighters and ships seen in the Pilot.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 7:29:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

> If I understand you right, I must always wait until one slot is free
and
> then can pick my race by knowing all other races in game. The poor
> player who comes first is then an idiot cause he know nothing about
the
> other races in game. If all will do so, no more game would start
cause
> none would tart to fill the slots.

First of all you don't understand me right. However, if you want to
wait until the last slot to pick a race and take a chance that your
favourite race will still be there then I guess that would be your
choice. That poor idiot who gets in first is probably picking a good
race that he likes to play, shame on him :-( The point you missed was
that once the game starts each player has to make tactical decisions,
who am I surrounded by? Who can I ally with? Which race can beat mine
easily? Who have I got a better chance against? Who do I need help
against? and so forth. If you think this does not occur then...

> Don't agree. Some can use it better then others. Races with many
colos
> can sell more contra and have more influence on the price.
> I would like to limit the contra buy to 1 K per Base, enough to
attract
> Ghips, Amps or to fill a Pod to send it to the enemy.

I don't mind you disagreeing with here. There are many different view
points. I say keep it the same, though I do like Tim's 50% reduction
rule. However, the races with the highter growth rates usually have the
cheaper and weaker ships. the low growth races have the more expansive
and nastier ships. So it all balances out is what I am saying.

> Agree, but some have mentioned before some time about 50K Wings of
CoM
> or Rebels. So not all seems to have the same meaning.

Sure this is happened in the past, but does it happen now? I would be
very surprised to find a rebel player with that many fighters in the
early game now with what crime does to them.

> Sorry, don't agree. Some races have so big gaps, that they must use
> alien technology to close the gaps. Like Grav Mines to stop hypers or

> Laser Mines against fighters or get hypers for a quicker exploration
of
> the map. And in "real" they would search and use such stuff to close
> there gaps. Maybe except the Feds with their non use of cloaker
> technologies or the Stormers with the honor and wishes to die in
fights.
> But this 2 races are the only ones which can board without Boarding
> Laser. So for what, should they recycle the boarded ships or use it
for
> their best ?

Sure gaining alien tech is great and I use it myself when I can. In one
game I am playing as rebs I have waged war on the Stormers and now have
captured pretty much their whole fleet, am I complaining, NO! I agree
capturing should be Okay, just the willy nilly ship plan/base structure
trading that goes on betweeen players is a blight on the game. Which
Tim can not do anything about, only the players.

> For me it is uninteresting to eliminate a race which have no defense,

> say I'm a the Rebel and fight the Feds or Stormer from a distance of
> over 1000 LYs. Or from the other site, if I have no change to get
Laser
> Mines or Tachyonen Emitter I can give up to fight against a Bird.
> There must be some sort of Tech transfer to give a race the hope to
stop
> an enemy or he can stop playing after the "wrong" enemy starts to
attack
> him.
> For me it is a sign of cleverness or better tactics if I can
eliminate a
> race which use foreign ships too then to eliminate a "helpless" race.
So
> what may it say about someone who want to forbid the usage of
foreign
> ships.

So do you wait until your enemy has the right tech to stop you before
you attack them do you, how interesting, such a novel concept. My
return of serve for a winner is it says a lot about your style of play
that you can't win unless you can gain alien hulls, again interesting.

> IMHO Tim make the goods a bit to much, as he change that BLs no
longer
> work for all by a host change. Some races can never get / use a
boarding
> ship now and that make the Death Spec nearly uninteresting for me in
my
> games.
>
> IMO there is enough (or to much) host settings with "Hull plan
trading
> (not) allowed" "alien hulls fight poorly (normally)" and the reduced
> repairing of ships in the game to stop or slow down the usage of
foreign
> ships.

I wonder why Tim with the help of others made this rule? All I can
suggest to you is read the game structure before you join the game, you
after all have plenty of time to do so as your waiting for the last
race spot to come up.

BYE BYE
ROBERT.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 8:57:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I am repairing the fighter wing combat logic.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 9:45:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Hi Tim,
I think the Robot ideas are good, they could do with some help to restore
their (many) weaknesses.
Stuart
"cocomax" <cocomax@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111976280.665571.286030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I have some ideas for game adjustments. . .
>
> Feds make more money with their working Agrovators, maybe 10mc per
> farm, would that be enough?
>
> Readjust the contraband market, making it a bit flater, maybe up to 50%
> flater. That would reduce gains from the market by 50%.
>
> Have the Colonies of man produce 200mc per 100000 colonists that they
> have on ships and increase their on board colonist growth rate to 4% to
> 6%.
>
> Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of the
> time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The Robots
> would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success rate
> of 100% down to 25%.
>
> Robots would be given a scarey new power, having to do with their
> fighters.
>
> Robots would have free fighters produced by insectoid nests.
>
> Tim
>
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 11:43:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

EXCELLANT!


cocomax wrote:
> I am repairing the fighter wing combat logic.
March 29, 2005 12:31:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

> Robots would be given a scarey new power, having to do with their
> fighters.

Sweet! Been watching the new show? ;-)

> Robots would have free fighters produced by insectoid nests.
>
> Tim
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 1:17:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Black Jack wrote:
> nospam schrieb:
> > cocomax wrote:
>
> >> Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of the
> >> time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The Robots
> >> would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success rate
> >> of 100% down to 25%.
> >
> >
> > What do you mean here. Each minesweeper ship have a chance of 25% of
> > success ? Then I must send out only enough ships to be nearly sure that
> > the cloaked mines are swept. Say groups of 4 minesweeper (not so good in
> > probability so maybe need 1-2 more ships).
> > I used cloaked Mines too and find them not so good if the enemy use
> > them. So for it and against it at the same time.
>
> If you take 4 minesweepers (if i remember right...) the chance to sweep
> would be more like more like :
>
> odds to sweep: 1/4
> odds not to sweep: 1 - 1/4 = 3/4
>
> -->
>
> (1/4) + (3/4 * 1/4) + (3/4 * 3/4 * 1/4) + (3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 + 1/4)
>
> = (64/256) + (48/64) + (36/256) + (27/256)
>
> = 175 / 256
>
> Well maybe I mixed something up, but what I'm trying to say is that you
> can never be absoulutely sure to sweep the mines, if each ship's odds
> are about 25%.

I wrote "nearly sure" that's different from absolutely sure. For me
reach a probability of around 90% and if I use you formula then I need 8
ships for it.
Then, Tim can bound the 25% change at the cloaked minefield. Something
like if there is one or more active minesweeper in the field it is swept
with a 25% change. Then more sweeper don't help. That's why I asked
"What do you mean here.".

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 4:25:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Paradox wrote:
> Has anyone else noticed since the host change back in ?December? that
> fighters (and ships) seem to orbit the center of the VCR screen and do
> not actively move directly towards the enemy anymore (regardless of
> attack settings)? I seem to recall that they flew more of less towards
> their target before that host change. Now they just circle and only
> fire weapons if their orbits "happen" to coincide with the enemy ships.
>
> This has given fighter races (like CoM) a significant setback. I
> recently had a VCR with a Virgo vs. a T-Rex. It should have been no
> contest with my Virgo's 1500+ fighters, but the Virgo took a good
> beating from the T-Rex until the T-Rex happened to move into the same
> large orbit that my fighter's had been occupying since the beginning of
> the battle, circling and circling and being useless.
>
> This circling effect does not only affect fighters, but ships as well.
> I can understand this type of effect over a planet, but even then the
> effect is extreme.
>
> That change, IMHO, has affected game balance in an adverse way.

Have no battles as the game is to new I'm playing.

But what I see is, that my ship(s) which shall destroy the small outpost
of the enemy only make 1 attack run against the Base. Combat stop
between tick 450-600 and the Base is not destroyed.
This behaviour slow down the "game speed", as I must now stand some
turns about the Bases.
(I don't understand why the idiotic bastard of a captain not stay over
the Base and shoot the whole time on it if there are no other objects in
the combat area. Why do I give him the order to attack ground targets ??)

IMHO it is a BUG.
March 29, 2005 5:55:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yes, as mentioned Sorarian are over top.
But the reason is not their strong growth only.
The main problem is that they have no real weakness.

I think this was originally designed against the disadvantage they have
from not beeing able to use alien ships (at least not for a long time).
And it is an disadvantage to see other races using their
(stolen/traded/captured)agrodomes, gambling decks, soil reformers
etc....

But now you look at a race that can defend against EVERY enemy on its
own.
All minefieldtypes (except webs), TOP fighters and basecunnel. What
more can you dream of in defence? Oh yes, I know a Stellar Matter
Laucher, I nearly forgot...
Solarians can hyp AND use normal speed with their ships. Plus an
advantage others seem seldom to recognize. IMHO they are the STRONGEST
boarding race in the universe. Yes, other races have a bit and Reb/EE
far better HG combat stats. But hey, I can make at least 4 times the HG
a Stormer can make.
I can fill EVERY ship full with HG/troops and the guest quarters are
comfortably spacious.

Ever tried to Groundassault a Solarian? I mean after you somehow moved
through the minefields and somehow mannaged to get rid of the Corona in
orbit before he cunnels away? Surviving a battle with >1000 top
fighters in 300 small wings, blockade the planet with 3 ships and know
that his ships are so far away that they could not hyp in the next
turn. Than you can face the planet.
I supply 20-50 Trainingcenters per base. Why? Because I need to slow
down the growth rate in a reasonable way or they would eat my food to
fast. I got often bases with far more troops than colos. Good luck!

But this is the good case for you. Now the bad one:
I somehow got enough food to feed my Solarians and want to take the
taxes and not train that much troops. What can I do?
I look for a hot star planet and try to explode it. (with my Corona
miner perhaps?) Than I chunnel in my neat base. Ever tried to
groundassault in an asteroid field?
It has the positive sideeffect that I can shoot the SML every turn now,
without care for the stress it creates. The only disadvantage is that I
can not grow food there.

An other advantage is that it is fruitless to attack them.
As described you can not count on getting prisoners from them. The
Solarian cunnels away a lot and this is very fuelconsuming for you even
if you could put pressure on him. All this without the ability to use
their ships really if you get them. A war has to make some economic
sense. For every race I can tell you at least 10 races in every game
stadium that I would more love to fight than the Solarian.

They are over top and their limitation is the food they get.
Consequently it is not much use to limit their growth rate.

I would disable them in an other way. I'd say remove them the barb
mines. This way we could cut of a good piece from the boarding
capability and other races with smaller ships and swarming races would
get their chances to intercept the jumping Nexus. It would also allow
faster attacks on their planets which is important because it gives you
a better chance to strike the corona before he can cunnel out.

This would weaken them a bit in many points but not too much.

These are my thoughts concerning the Solarian.
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 5:57:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

> If I were to propose a simple answer to this, it would be to remove
> the Sols ability to heat up planets with colonists. This way they
> would have to be much more selective about where to live, naturally
> decreasing their growth.
> This would be a good change, because then the Sols would actually
> have to seek out the high heat stars, much like the Crystals are
> always looking for high HD stress planets.

I must disagree with that! There are way to less high temperatur stars
compared to HD stress worlds ...

But yes, Solorians are a strong race ...
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 8:21:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

> Feds make more money with their working Agrovators, maybe 10mc per
> farm, would that be enough?

I like this! A nice source of income, pays itself after 5 turns, and is
easily adjustable up or down if need be later. Also it encourages
spreading, a good thing for overall play quality.

> Readjust the contraband market, making it a bit flater, maybe up to
50%
> flater. That would reduce gains from the market by 50%.

I don't think a restriction of the contramarket to be strictly
necessary, but that's because I favor small games. The coupling to colo
numbers is fully sufficient for games where your population usually
don't reach 10 M. But I can live with a 50% reduction of contra trading
gains, and this will surely be an advantage for big games.

> Have the Colonies of man produce 200mc per 100000 colonists that they
> have on ships and increase their on board colonist growth rate to 4%
to
> 6%.

The CoM might well need a bit more money to rise again to their height
as supreme fighter race, so this sounds like a good idea. It also
supports their nomadic nature.

> Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of the
> time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The Robots
> would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success
rate
> of 100% down to 25%.

As a solution this appears to be ok. You can stack your odds for
successfully sweeping quite high with multiple ships, but there's
always the increased risk of sending a lot of ships (and any sweeper
you can massproduce has to be a light mine-vulnerable ship) into
cloaked barbs when you fail to sweep even a single of the cloaked barbs
(either due to chance, or because there are several cloaked barbs
about).

> Robots would be given a scarey new power, having to do with their
> fighters.
> Robots would have free fighters produced by insectoid nests.

Can't say anything about that. Not enough experience with the Robot
after the latest changes. And I haven't seen the new Galactica series
yet ;) .
March 29, 2005 11:02:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I'd have to agree with Paradox that the fighter logic has put fighter
races at a disadvantage. The ships circling has also taken the
strategy of certain ship weapons and ship hulls out of the game.
Weapon range doesn't matter right now since after the first shots are
fired, you will always be in range when the enemy or you circle around
the next time. So now the big, but slow firing weapons like blaster
cannons have time to recharge while the enemy circles around the map
and comes back into range. Ship hull sizes (mass) came into play for a
short time, so that those that were large enough wouldn't get knocked
back, but now all hulls circle around the map from the apparent
knock-back.

I think that this has unbalanced the game.

Magik
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 11:06:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

On the EE in the classic series, I'm only aware of 1 fighter they had
that hyper-jumped. (Vader's fighter in A New Hope at the end, and even
then they didn't actually show it hyp, it's just implied.) Obi-wan even
talks the audience (and Luke & Han) that "The Tie-fighter is a short
ranged fighter. There will be a base nearby." Luke: "It's headed to
that small moon." Obi-wan: "That's no moon" [cue the empire music as we
start seeing it's a space station : The Death Star! And apprently it
took over twenty years to build! (Talk about inefficency in govt)

The Rebel fighters all seemed to be hyping under their own power, and
going at the same speed in hyp as their carriers. Which leads us to
wonder what they needed the carriers there for?
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 1:21:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I don't see too many people complaining about the Robots, but my guess
is that is because they have not yet come into direct contact with them
since you (Tim) made the recent changes. I have been in two games with
the robots as my next-door-neighbors since these changes went into
effect, and I can definately say the increasing range of the robot
nests has to go. The problem is that the nest range can, and in my
opinion in most cases will, overwhelm neighboring races long before
they can effectively mount an attack on the homeworld, much less on any
additional nest worlds that the robots might be able to build. In my
current game as the Birds I discovered that the robots were my
neighbors on Turn 1, and for the last 25 turns have devoted almost all
of my resources to destroying them and still its going to be chancy as
to whether I can destroy them before the nest range makes my empire
unviable. If this was the result of some active strategy on their part
I wouldn't mind, but all they have to do is sit there and funnel the
metal needed to make more robots into their home world and this is what
happens. I shudder to think what would happen if I didn't have
cloakers (to get under their Gun Zero) (or alternatively if I wasn't a
hyperjumping race). Any races without those capabilities wouldn't
stand a chance. Tim, get rid of the increasing range, but leave the
nests as dangerous as they are. At least then the Robots have to
actively move out of their space to build new nests and if other races
don't counter that move they get what they deserve.

Don't give the Robots more fighters, they already have cheap fighters
and can build lots of them because they generally have plenty of money.
If you want to incease the Robots capabilities let the insects build
ground assault vehicles for free. Coupled with their ability to make
troops, this will make the Robots very dangerous in ground assaults,
but will force them to have to actively deploy this capability by
assaulting other races worlds.

Also I would like to suggest some other changes in relationship to the
Robots. Consider allowing the Birds nanovirus to work on the Robots
to destroy them. Also, consider allowing races like the Birds, EE and
the Stormers to deconstruct Robots Prisoners in labor camps back into
their constituent minerals.

I also agree that the Solarians are too powerful. I think that their
growth rate is simply way too high. I think cutting that back will
slow down their economic and technological growth to a point where they
will be on parity with other races.

I agree that the contraband market is still a bit much.

The ideas for the COM are good, they need a slight boost.

Sweeping of cloaked mines is a very good idea, although you should get
a message if it is successful. After all, your minesweepers are going
to know whether they did the job or not. The low probability of
success alone is enough to maintain playability.


stuart.cameron wrote:
> Hi Tim,
> I think the Robot ideas are good, they could do with some help to
restore
> their (many) weaknesses.
> Stuart
> "cocomax" <cocomax@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1111976280.665571.286030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I have some ideas for game adjustments. . .
> >
> > Feds make more money with their working Agrovators, maybe 10mc per
> > farm, would that be enough?
> >
> > Readjust the contraband market, making it a bit flater, maybe up to
50%
> > flater. That would reduce gains from the market by 50%.
> >
> > Have the Colonies of man produce 200mc per 100000 colonists that
they
> > have on ships and increase their on board colonist growth rate to
4% to
> > 6%.
> >
> > Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of
the
> > time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The
Robots
> > would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success
rate
> > of 100% down to 25%.
> >
> > Robots would be given a scarey new power, having to do with their
> > fighters.
> >
> > Robots would have free fighters produced by insectoid nests.
> >
> > Tim
> >
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 3:21:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Protection: It's the other way around, fighters protect carriers, not
the reverse.

Refueling: Good reason, perhaps the fighters can't carry enough fuel
for a round trip thru hyperspace from the randevous point.

Repairing: Maybe, but not as often as you might think since most of the
time fighters getting significant damage simply blow up.

Sleeping: Luke could sleep just fine in Hyper Space with R2D2 staying
alert.
March 29, 2005 5:55:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Loki wrote:
>Yes, as mentioned Solarian are over top.
>But the reason is not their strong growth only.
>The main problem is that they have no real weakness.

No, real weakness?
Not too cheap ships (at least their warships), zero pod speed,
the different way to handle fuel (which is both an advantage and a
disadvantage), amorphs not joining voluntarily, native happiness which
cannot be above 100, no mines or smelters...
Looks pretty much to me like weaknesses.

>I think this was originally designed against the disadvantage they
have
>from not beeing able to use alien ships (at least not for a long
time).
>And it is an disadvantage to see other races using their
>(stolen/traded/captured)agrodomes, gambling decks, soil reformers
>etc....



>But now you look at a race that can defend against EVERY enemy on its
>own.

Like every other race can also, with of course different results
depending on the
situation etc..
Or with other words every race can defend, some methods and races are
just a little
bit more successful depending on whom the attacker is (and how he is
attacking).

>All minefieldtypes (except webs), TOP fighters and basecunnel. What
>more can you dream of in defence? Oh yes, I know a Stellar Matter
>Laucher, I nearly forgot...

In all cases I see it preferable to not have to be on the defense.
And I would not call all of the Solarian fighters top fighter.

And it is actually a very inexpensive way to effectively mine your
territory with laser minefields against cloaker and free flying fighter
wings.
Oh and do not forget to tow your Eclipse for that, it is the only Sol
ship that can lay
them. Looks to me pretty vulnerable to some fighter races, ie. rebels,
Coms, Cents.
And to some races which can cloak, like Birds and Stormer

>Solarians can hyp AND use normal speed with their ships.

As can all other races also which have hyp capable ships.
They just have a few hyp ships which are not too slow with normal
engines.


>Plus an
>advantage others seem seldom to recognize.

Because it is no advantage of the Sols.

> IMHO they are the STRONGEST
>boarding race in the universe. Yes, other races have a bit and Reb/EE
>far better HG combat stats. But hey, I can make at least 4 times the
HG
>a Stormer can make.

The math behind that totally eludes me, and I guess I already know why.
I can tell you that if the Stormer knows what he is doing you would not
be able to even
make the same number of HG that he does make.


>I can fill EVERY ship full with HG/troops and the guest quarters are
>comfortably spacious.

You see that paragraph is actually very humerous, alone to think that a
race without
boarding lasers and no special way to beam boarders onto an enemy ship
while it is not
damaged, with the addition to totally neglate the value of the food for
HG production
(do I need to go on)... is the best boarding race.


>Ever tried to Groundassault a Solarian?

Why would anyone want to GA a Solarian, you see except for a Lizard I
cannot
use the prisoners, mostly any number of natives and all other things
are neglateable.
Since they will usually not have too many natives - other races are
better able to gather them.
But maybe a few ghips are worth the effort...

> I mean after you somehow moved
>through the minefields and somehow mannaged to get rid of the Corona
in
>orbit before he cunnels away?

First of all he does need a target he could chunnel, too - otherwise he
can try to chunnel
as often as he does want to with no real result. And then ie. a well
placed X-Field device is enough.
And then ever thought about a race like the birds only goading you into
moving your ground base
to a better location with ie. a Darkwing already in place (remember the
Sols only get for combat a base shield -
a WCM can be shoot from afar).
And depending on the race I did find it exceptionally easy to clear any
number of minefields fast.
Also what helps you base chunnel, when the base is at the next turn
unprotected
(until movement phase 100 and something).
And do not count that the enemy will not be able to know where you
chunneled to.


> Surviving a battle with >1000 top
>fighters in 300 small wings, blockade the planet with 3 ships and know
>that his ships are so far away that they could not hyp in the next
>turn. Than you can face the planet.

Oh a turned on Grav Well is enough, and then who says that you are not
yourself (I mean the enemy of the Sols)
hyping in a few ships?
And I would not blockage his base, why? Well the Solarians have a
incredible fast pods...
And what do I care about the contra they sell.
And then very often, depending on the skill of the attacker and the
attacking race,
the order of events that would occur (yes also against Sols) would be,
on turn one the minefields around the base would be cleared (if a not
too big area is
obliterated by mines - in some cases only the Grav Mines do count), if
you have given the same
turn the order to basechunnel you will get away from that planets
otherwise you won't -,
at the same time your Coronas will get hunted down, except for those in
easy reach of the
fleet which is going to attack you, the next turn your base will get
destroyed if still on the planet,
before it even got the chance to chunnel away.


>I supply 20-50 Trainingcenters per base.

You want to have a lower growth than the birds or stormers, and with
that
also a lower HG and Troop count.

> Why? Because I need to slow
>down the growth rate in a reasonable way or they would eat my food to
>fast. I got often bases with far more troops than colos. Good luck!

No problem for the Lizards, and for the others it is not worth the try
(eventhough I would know where I would send as an EE any spare 10-20 k
of battlebots).
And then if you would please look at one of your previous paragraphs
and tell me what might somehow
contradict with this paragraph.

>But this is the good case for you. Now the bad one:
>I somehow got enough food to feed my Solarians and want to take the
>taxes and not train that much troops. What can I do?

Podding your whole population into space and self destructing the pods!

>I look for a hot star planet and try to explode it. (with my Corona
>miner perhaps?) Than I chunnel in my neat base. Ever tried to
>groundassault in an asteroid field?

So far not, and I would only do that as a priv or fellow Sol.
And then I would destroy them from orbit with fighters instead.

>It has the positive sideeffect that I can shoot the SML every turn
now,
>without care for the stress it creates. The only disadvantage is that
I
>can not grow food there.

As far as I am concerned you could shoot your SML as often as you want
to.
It would not in all cases do you anything good.But the again that is
the one thing that
needs to be changed.


>An other advantage is that it is fruitless to attack them.
>As described you can not count on getting prisoners from them.

I must have for some reason missed the description...

>The
>Solarian cunnels away a lot and this is very fuelconsuming for you
even
>if you could put pressure on him.

Because of that you would have to take care of their base chunnel ships
first.
And of the bases capable to build one.

> All this without the ability to use
>their ships really if you get them. A war has to make some economic
>sense. For every race I can tell you at least 10 races in every game
>stadium that I would more love to fight than the Solarian.

Oh it would make economic sense with all races:
possible advantages for the attacker:
- Freed space,
- more resource points available
- stopping the sols from getting more natives
- more planets and their resources for each destroyed base of the Sols
- free astroid belts (only privs)
....

And then it is usually not a question of which race you would love to
fight (from
the strategic viewpoint it would usually be the wrong race), but the
question of which
race(s) you would have to take are of next.


>They are over top and their limitation is the food they get.
>Consequently it is not much use to limit their growth rate.

>I would disable them in an other way. I'd say remove them the barb
>mines. This way we could cut of a good piece from the boarding
>capability and other races with smaller ships and swarming races would
>get their chances to intercept the jumping Nexus. It would also allow
>faster attacks on their planets which is important because it gives
you
>a better chance to strike the corona before he can cunnel out.

Concerning the swarming races:
- Xtals: No Problem, they have ie. the X-Field Device
- Centaurs: No Problem
- Dracs: They will have a problem with or without that changes - and
the problems
....

Or to simply put it there is no need to do that.

>This would weaken them a bit in many points but not too much.

>These are my thoughts concerning the Solarian.


Much of the perceived power of the Sols have to do with neither the Sol
players
nor their opponents having the knowledge as to how to wage war on the
Sols effectivly. And some part of that has to do with not finding the
special race attributes/abilities on Tims site.

The only thing I am seeing in this post, that needs to be changed, is
how asteroids are handled.
For one thing it should not be possible to have the Sols use the
Stellar Matter Launcher from the
Asteroid Belt, at least not without thereby destroying their base.
March 29, 2005 5:59:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

cocomax wrote:
> How has game balance been lately?
>
> Has anyone noticed any races that are still way over the top or
ones
> that are way too weak?
>
> Which race is the weakest and with is the strongest?
>
> Tim

Weakest Race: Draconians

Candidates for weak races:
- University Alliance
- Reunited Coalition of Stars,
(- Centaurs,)
- Aczanny,
- Feds,


Candidates for strong races:
- Centaurs,
- Rebels,
(- Stormer,)
(- Peeps,)
(- Solarian,)
(- United Enforcement Authority,)
(- Robots,)
- Privateers,
(-Xtals)
(-Lizards)

btw there is a reason for the Cents mentioned in both.
March 29, 2005 6:05:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

cocomax wrote:
>I have some ideas for game adjustments. . .

>Feds make more money with their working Agrovators, maybe 10mc per
>farm, would that be enough?

How about not giving all races a fixed income from a city, but
have it based on the income stat of the race?
Lets say 100 mc * race_income /100 or 50 mc + race_income /200


And then the increased money boost should be enough, that is if you
mean an income
of 10 mc per aggrovator with a maximum
amount of 1 aggrovator per farm on the base generating that money, but
then again
it also depends on how you mean that sentence. I am ie. against an
income of 2000 mc
per aggrovator,
if you have 200 farms on the base.

>Readjust the contraband market, making it a bit flater, maybe up to
50%
>flater. That would reduce gains from the market by 50%.

If you really want to reduce contra income you would need to do a
little bit more.
The problem is that the possible income does rise with the increase
in your own population (you can buy more) AND by the increase in total
galactic population (through which the price of all types of contra do
rise and
also the absoulte fluctuation of the price (although the percentages
stay the same).


>Have the Colonies of man produce 200mc per 100000 colonists that they
>have on ships and increase their on board colonist growth rate to 4%
to
>6%.

For what do they need a boost? - If there fighters would be slower I
might speak otherwise.
And then you should wait with such a change until we see how
the then "fixed fighter combat" does work and affects the games.
And 200 mc is too much, first of all Colonists on ships are generating
taxes,
and with the change the COMs would get for 100 k Colonists also the
income of 2 cities,
without any food as a requirement.

>Allow the sweeping of cloaked mines, but have it only work 25% of the
>time and you do not get a message that anything happened. The Robots
>would also be reduced from having a sweeping cloaked mines success
rate
>of 100% down to 25%.

How do you want to implement that.
There are different ways.
Depending how it gets implemented, side effects could involve
the following:
- sometimes ships are not sweeping non-barb mines
eventhough a ship which did not sweep any minefield is present (in
case there is also a cloaked barb minefield).

- sometimes ships happen to sweep the same minefield multiple times.

- ships can sweep more than one minefield, and all except one of them
are cloaked barb mines.

- If you have enough minesweepers, you will sweep more than 25 % of the
cloaked barb minefields.
....


>Robots would be given a scarey new power, having to do with their
>fighters.

Again for what?
I do not see a reason for that, and without knowing what it might be
(especially considering the awfully expensive robot fighters) I am
against that.

>Robots would have free fighters produced by insectoid nests.


- if it is the type-1, the production would also need a full insect
nest and the
production would be about 1 type-1 per turn per full nest - I do not
see any
problem with it - it would just add some colour to the game.
March 29, 2005 11:14:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

> The Rebel fighters all seemed to be hyping under their own power, and
> going at the same speed in hyp as their carriers. Which leads us to
> wonder what they needed the carriers there for?

Protection, refueling, repairing, and a more comfortable place to sleep?
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 12:06:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

The insect nests MAX out at 400LY and can never be greater than the
values V1 or V2

V1 = (SQR(colonists + insects) / 5)
V2 = 100 + (Turn * 5)

The Robots have a max nest range of 200Ly at turn 20, if they have
enought colonists/insects on the nest planet.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 12:30:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

The Solorians have a growth rating of 353 on temp 100 stars. If
happiness is over 80 then this rating jumps to 530.

This works out to a 26.5% growth rate, most races have a growth rate in
the 4% to 7% range.

At this rate the race can grow from 1 million to 139 million in 20
turns.

A race with only 5% growth rate will grow from 1 million to 2.7 million
colonists in 20 turns.

Tim
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 1:35:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Perhaps I've overseen comments on the Coalition but...

Though I've played them only two times I've the feeling that a small income
gimmick would help them. Not much but something like

-the income doubling for the first ten cities if there is an AC like it was
before the last change and/or
-cost reduction for the three special buildings and/or
-tech level reduction/switch needed for the special buildings and/or

A part from this I would really like to see

-a better fit of the needed planetary levels for the special buildings to
the needed hull tech for the ships which can be built with the special
buildings (a subject which is really annoying, actually it makes no really
meaning to me)

Look:

X240 (HT1), needed Building: XH (800mc100sup) (PT3)
A.ICF (HT2), needed building: AC (800mc100sup) (PT4)
N.WCSS(HT3), needed building: NG (120mc10sup) (PT2)
N.ESV(HT4), nedded building: NG (PT2)

You are at HT1 in the beginning but you need a XH at PT3 to be able to build
thís hull.
The first special building you build is the NG now because the AC lost the
income boost from the firts ten cities. So at low PT you have to increase HT
to 4 to build the first interesting hull.

Either one gives the income doubling back to the AC or a switch in the tech
levels is needed.

And also the AC and XH could stand a cost reduction maybe somewhere to the
half of the actual prices.



-An easy way to replace special buildings maybe with a tear down base CC

It is really frustrating to have to rip down a full base or to have an ally
after for example a mineral world is empty. The XH then is wanted to be
replaced by an AC to take use from the med production. Or vice versa a world
which after a while has become a mineral rich world due to HD...

I think some of this changes would not only balance them but make them a
race which is can be played with much more game fun.

GFM GToeroe





"cocomax" <cocomax@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1111903591.331575.49710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> How has game balance been lately?
>
> Has anyone noticed any races that are still way over the top or ones
> that are way too weak?
>
> Which race is the weakest and with is the strongest?
>
> Tim
>
March 30, 2005 6:16:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Since I do have a deja-vu - we already had a discussion about the Sols
growth in june 2003 - I will let all of you sort the whole thing out.


cocomax wrote:
> The Solorians have a growth rating of 353 on temp 100 stars. If
> happiness is over 80 then this rating jumps to 530.
>
> This works out to a 26.5% growth rate, most races have a growth rate
in
> the 4% to 7% range.
>
> At this rate the race can grow from 1 million to 139 million in 20
> turns.
>

> A race with only 5% growth rate will grow from 1 million to 2.7
million
> colonists in 20 turns.
>

To be fair you should also apply the happiness bonus for them.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 10:58:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Seems some r Solorian bashers and some r Solorian prefered race 2 play
people.

Me , I just had all my food stolen by a priv from my HW through
baseshields.. so yes we can all complain about something we feel was 2
powerful used against us. I've lost a dozen ships to Priv boarding so
far in one game.

Mind u my Solorian ally just GA'd an Aczanny HW and wiped it out..then
again my EE ships could have easily hyped in and done the same as they
did accidently to a Priv HW and a Stormer training base. But against my
Solorian ally if he was an enemy, I'd stand no chance as his
population, troops and rather high income and yes tons and tons of
minerals is extreme.

Tim, u seem 2 already know they have a way high growh rate and r asking
around 2 see if u should reduce it.
Likewise with money making from contra.

Wanna take a vote???

Cheers.
Lee.



Nameless wrote:
> Since I do have a deja-vu - we already had a discussion about the
Sols
> growth in june 2003 - I will let all of you sort the whole thing out.
>
>
> cocomax wrote:
> > The Solorians have a growth rating of 353 on temp 100 stars. If
> > happiness is over 80 then this rating jumps to 530.
> >
> > This works out to a 26.5% growth rate, most races have a growth
rate
> in
> > the 4% to 7% range.
> >
> > At this rate the race can grow from 1 million to 139 million in 20
> > turns.
> >
>
> > A race with only 5% growth rate will grow from 1 million to 2.7
> million
> > colonists in 20 turns.
> >
>
> To be fair you should also apply the happiness bonus for them.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 11:59:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Wow, I did not realize it was so extreme. Perhaps you can suggest a
change Tim. I'd like to see the Sols growth rate slide the scale from
the lowest growth rate of all races when on a planet with a low star
temp to having the same growth rate as the best growing race out there
on a hot star temp planet. Please recommend your change before
implementing it.

Greg Bahr
Solorian Creator
March 30, 2005 12:34:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Hi again!

> No, real weakness?
> Not too cheap ships (at least their warships), zero pod speed,
> the different way to handle fuel (which is both an advantage and a
> disadvantage), amorphs not joining voluntarily, native happiness
which
> cannot be above 100, no mines or smelters...
> Looks pretty much to me like weaknesses.

Its not the price of the warship which should considered, but also what
you
get for your money. I do not consider the Pulsar as weakness of this
race,
even for this price. The zero pod speed I found never to be a problem.
Honestly, not with these freighters.
As you pointed out the fuel thing is different but not a weakness.
Amorphos not joining, yes this is a weakness but ... well I leave it
with that.
Native happieness not above 100 yes, also a weakness but 4 times
joining
rate gives you a good boost when you need it, at the beginning. After
you
got them you can afford to have one base without PSP for your natives
so
they can't flee to other races. And 100 is enough to let them do their
job.

> Like every other race can also, with of course different results
> depending on the
> situation etc..
> Or with other words every race can defend, some methods and races are
> just a little
> bit more successful depending on whom the attacker is (and how he is
> attacking).

There are enough races with large holes in defence abilities.
The Sol got them also, but way smaller.
All in all I absolutely agree that a good player has its chances with
and against every race. But I focused on the race and not on the
players in this thread.

> In all cases I see it preferable to not have to be on the defense.
> And I would not call all of the Solarian fighters top fighter.

You can make nice small wings out of them that are compareably cheap.
No good travel range but still perform well in battle.

> And it is actually a very inexpensive way to effectively mine your
> territory with laser minefields against cloaker and free flying
fighter
> wings.
> Oh and do not forget to tow your Eclipse for that, it is the only Sol
> ship that can lay
> them. Looks to me pretty vulnerable to some fighter races, ie.
rebels,
> Coms, Cents.
> And to some races which can cloak, like Birds and Stormer

The Eclipse is not the easiest target for free flying wings and on the
other hand there are enough races which have the same or bigger
problems than the Sol. By the way The Prominence is really not that
expensive.

> As can all other races also which have hyp capable ships.
> They just have a few hyp ships which are not too slow with normal
> engines.

Yes ofcourse your point. But you will find a rater large advantage in
that.

> The math behind that totally eludes me, and I guess I already know
why.
> I can tell you that if the Stormer knows what he is doing you would
not
> be able to even
> make the same number of HG that he does make.

Maybe you are right I have not played the Stormers in such a sucsessful
way.


> You see that paragraph is actually very humerous, alone to think that
a
> race without
> boarding lasers and no special way to beam boarders onto an enemy
ship
> while it is not
> damaged, with the addition to totally neglate the value of the food
for
> HG production
> (do I need to go on)... is the best boarding race.

I know. I stand with that opinion a bit on my own. But I am very happy
to
entertain you. Lets say you end your movement within 25-30 ly range of
the
target and place the largest cloacked barb same turn. Next turn you
blow it up and board it with 20000 HG/Troops and hold 5000 on you ship
if he does the same. Yes most races can somehow do similar things but
the Nexus is just perfect for that and the HG Troop stats are
compareable to the Privs. But I can send loads of them and I got
enough.

> Why would anyone want to GA a Solarian, you see except for a Lizard I
> cannot
> use the prisoners,

Uhmm, says... ...who?

> First of all he does need a target he could chunnel, too - otherwise
he
> can try to chunnel
> as often as he does want to with no real result. And then ie. a well
> placed X-Field device is enough.

Not everyone is a Xtal ;) 

> And then ever thought about a race like the birds only goading you
into
> moving your ground base
> to a better location with ie. a Darkwing already in place (remember
the
> Sols only get for combat a base shield -
> a WCM can be shoot from afar).

A WCM is dangerous to all races. But most other races do not have the
advantage to evacuate a complete base this comfortable way. And other
options like pod/carry are still doable.

> And depending on the race I did find it exceptionally easy to clear
any
> number of minefields fast.
> Also what helps you base chunnel, when the base is at the next turn
> unprotected
> (until movement phase 100 and something).
> And do not count that the enemy will not be able to know where you
> chunneled to.

As I mentioned it is an additional option. Wich makes them only
stronger and not weaker.

> Oh a turned on Grav Well is enough, and then who says that you are
not
> yourself (I mean the enemy of the Sols)
> hyping in a few ships?

Against Hyp races this would work good but the sol have additional a
good speed in normal space movement.

> And I would not blockage his base, why? Well the Solarians have a
> incredible fast pods...

Because I would shoot them up and selfdestruct everything if I see no
chance in this moment to save it. Thats why. Because you can not use
any prisoners, inerals or natives afterwards. You may allow yourself
such a lapsus and still have chances to win this game with this growth
rate.

> And what do I care about the contra they sell.

Good point I forgot to mention. Much colos => much contratrading

> And then very often, depending on the skill of the attacker and the
> attacking race,
> the order of events that would occur (yes also against Sols) would
be,
> on turn one the minefields around the base would be cleared (if a not
> too big area is
> obliterated by mines - in some cases only the Grav Mines do count),
if
> you have given the same
> turn the order to basechunnel you will get away from that planets
> otherwise you won't -,
> at the same time your Coronas will get hunted down, except for those
in
> easy reach of the
> fleet which is going to attack you, the next turn your base will get
> destroyed if still on the planet,
> before it even got the chance to chunnel away.

Yes offcourse. I did not say their bases are untouchable. Its just that
you have a time limit of 2 turns.

> >I supply 20-50 Trainingcenters per base.
>
> You want to have a lower growth than the birds or stormers, and with
> that
> also a lower HG and Troop count.

With this growth rate you can arrange you.

> No problem for the Lizards, and for the others it is not worth the
try
> (eventhough I would know where I would send as an EE any spare 10-20
k
> of battlebots).
> And then if you would please look at one of your previous paragraphs
> and tell me what might somehow
> contradict with this paragraph.

sorry don't get that.

> So far not, and I would only do that as a priv or fellow Sol.
> And then I would destroy them from orbit with fighters instead.

And loose or win as I said, fruitless war.

> As far as I am concerned you could shoot your SML as often as you
want
> to.
> It would not in all cases do you anything good.But the again that is
> the one thing that
> needs to be changed.

Ok, at least something we agree ;) 

> Because of that you would have to take care of their base chunnel
ships
> first.
> And of the bases capable to build one.

Yes thats the point other races heading for the bases, you need to head
for the bases AND the ships WITH a timelimit.

> Oh it would make economic sense with all races:
> possible advantages for the attacker:

> - Freed space,

Yes

> - more resource points available

Good one, but if there are still some races in game you will find
easier targets.

> - stopping the sols from getting more natives

Yes

> - more planets and their resources for each destroyed base of the
Sols

Their ressources? How do you think an planet looks like after a corona
moved over? You can grow your food and you may find good amounts of
neutronium but minerals... If its a planet, often enough its a asteroid
belt.

> - free astroid belts (only privs)

Yepp, as you said, only Privs. They got other problems against a Sol.

> And then it is usually not a question of which race you would love to
> fight (from
> the strategic viewpoint it would usually be the wrong race), but the
> question of which
> race(s) you would have to take are of next.

Sure and Sol would be within the top 5 under same expierienced players.
Thats not more or less I am saying.

> Concerning the swarming races:
> - Xtals: No Problem, they have ie. the X-Field Device

Sorry I have played Xtals only with concentration on ther mines and
tried not to face anything in a vcr.
By the way they are the best allies for each other. You got good
chances they work togeather.

> - Centaurs: No Problem

no expierience on my side with them. Often enough they are out of game
before the intresting part comes.

> - Dracs: They will have a problem with or without that changes - and
> the problems

ok lets forget about the Dracs.

> Or to simply put it there is no need to do that.

Swarming races got problems enough against 1 or more SML.
A lack of barbfields would give them the chance to move a bit faster
without the risk that half of fleet ends in dust.

> The only thing I am seeing in this post, that needs to be changed, is
> how asteroids are handled.
> For one thing it should not be possible to have the Sols use the
> Stellar Matter Launcher from the
> Asteroid Belt, at least not without thereby destroying their base.

At least something...

No don't get me wrong I love to play the Sol. They are just a bit
overpowered. Not as much as the Robot might be but again I have no
expierience there. I think I got a bit expierience with the Sol and
have played with and against them. At the end its a personal impression
and maybe I would think in an other way if the expierienced Centaur
player crushes me in turn 10.

I also got the impression that the Robot is a bit overdone but I have
not played with this race till now and therefore can not give a useful
statement to that.

After all I find the game to balance itself often and good enough
because other players tend to ally against too strong races AND too
strong players.

Tata
!