Avoid Base

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I have kept silent about that for a while now because I wanted to see
where it would go on ist own, but enough is enough.

Right now we have the situation that a fleet, with avoid base, can take
apart an enemy fleet over a heavily fortified base without risking to
get shot at by base ion cannon fire. All for the sake of logic and
'keeping their distance from the base'. To be fair we need now a
similar option for the defending fleet, to stay inside the protective
fire range of the ion cannons. That's what the cannons are there for
after all (anyone remembering the evacuation of Hoth?).
And we don't want to forget the base fighters. Right now they happily
leave the protective circle of the base ion cannons and AA guns to
engage the enemy and get killed. Consequently we'd need a 'stay
inside base fire range' order for the fighters, too. Both for wings
and the base fighters (not formed into wings yet).
Complicated. Absurd. Unnecessary.
And of course that would result into two complete fleets sitting atop
of each other at the same coordinates without fighting each other (one
with avoid base, one with stay inside base firing range). What a mess.

Fortunately there's a simple solution. If you want to not engage a
base in battle, keep your distance from it. Stay 6ly away (or 12ly for
good measure, to not get drawn into a larger combat).That's avoid
base for me. If I want to attack a fleet over a base, or to blockade a
base, or to assimilate it, or to superlaser its planet, or whatever,
than it is implied that I go near enough to the base to get shot at
with ion cannons.
Simple. Stay far enough from the base to not engage it in VCR, or
accept that you have to fight it. The avoid base order is just an
unnecessary over-complification which was never needed in the first
place.

Never needed? Oho. Than where does it come from? Ah, I remember. It was
only implemented to save big ships from getting shot to pieces by ion
cannons because they stopped being pushed away by the cannons. Oh my,
another mess. But this one fortunately has easy solutions, too. For
example, simply differ between shipbased weapons and planetbased
weapons. Big ships are immune versus shipbased push back. Versus
planetbased pushback they behave like in times dear, before this whole
problem of mass related combat behaviour.

I love Planets. I love its complicated construct of possibilities and
rules. But sometimes the simple answer is indeed the best one. Put away
with avoid base, Tim, please.
24 answers Last reply
More about avoid base
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    The whole troubel only started because of this "push back" thing. The
    change was done quickly and without giving much thought about the
    consequences. Then the fix needed a fix and so on and so on.
    Unfortunately this is more the rule than the exception. :-( Tim, you
    should by now realize that most things are related to each other. You
    change one and then something else falls down at the end other end of
    the bench.

    Another example would be the fix for boarding. Now the combat seems to
    be 10, but alas as "Completo" recently pointed out at Drewheads, the
    "Rebel Groudn Assault" and "Warrior Assault" only work at 10 LYs range.
    The solution is not to increase the range of those devices, as e.g. the
    Glory device is involved as well, but can not be increased in range as
    otherwis ethe stromers get a huge benefit.

    To come back to the point:
    The "Avoid Base" can not simply be taken away, as the ICs are too
    strong and would kill every capital ships within seconds. We do however
    need the possibility to attack a base from space.

    I see 4 possibilities:
    1) Change everything back to the point before the pushback was
    implemented
    2) Keep everything as it is now
    3) As Lord Owl says: Take away the Avoid Ground Base, but add the old
    pushback from ground base fire
    4) Take away the Avoid Ground Base, but make ICs much weaker - matter
    of fact thereby getting the old results just without a pushback

    I would currently go for 2, as I fear everything else will either be
    difficult or need another series of tests and changes until we get it
    working ok. There are already enough games ruined with unbalanced and
    untested host changes, if the players shall not be driven away
    completely, I would say this needs to stop sooner than later.

    The VGAP4 concept is great and it is fun to play. The quality of the
    host changes would need improvement though - even though it is still
    beta!
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    > I love Planets. I love its complicated construct of possibilities and
    > rules. But sometimes the simple answer is indeed the best one. Put
    away
    > with avoid base, Tim, please.

    Uhmm Lord Owl...

    with the Host 190
    -- there is no Avoid Base button anymore.

    However as long as you have Ground Attack off for the ships and with
    the fighters even if they are on top of the base they will not be shot
    at...

    wether that is an improvement or not remains to be seen.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I have to say, I rather enjoy the Avoid Base. Playing in a game as the
    Birdman, there is a great advantage. I can slip into orbit, destroy
    all ships, ignore the base, and then blow it up with a Super Laser shot
    from my Darkwing.

    Everyone still think it's a good idea?

    I have to agree with Lord Owl. It's great to have this level of
    control. I'd much rather see better control over your ships
    intentions.

    Example, Damn the Base, kill the fleet.

    or

    Damn the Fleet, kill the base.

    I think the whole combat model needs a major over haul.

    Greg Bahr
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Lord Owl wrote:
    > I have kept silent about that for a while now because I wanted to see
    > where it would go on ist own, but enough is enough.

    Funny, isn't it?


    > Right now we have the situation that a fleet, with avoid base, can
    take
    > apart an enemy fleet over a heavily fortified base without risking to
    > get shot at by base ion cannon fire. All for the sake of logic and
    > 'keeping their distance from the base'. To be fair we need now a
    > similar option for the defending fleet, to stay inside the protective
    > fire range of the ion cannons. That's what the cannons are there for
    > after all (anyone remembering the evacuation of Hoth?).
    > And we don't want to forget the base fighters. Right now they happily
    > leave the protective circle of the base ion cannons and AA guns to
    > engage the enemy and get killed. Consequently we'd need a 'stay
    > inside base fire range' order for the fighters, too.
    > Both for wings
    > and the base fighters (not formed into wings yet).

    No more likely an option for the base fighters to not launch (at least
    with an Air Attack Base present, and accessible via the Air Attack
    Base).
    Which btw should be taken into consideration anyway, regardless of what
    happens to some other parts of the combat behaviour and the avoid base
    option.

    > Complicated. Absurd. Unnecessary.
    > And of course that would result into two complete fleets sitting atop
    > of each other at the same coordinates without fighting each other
    (one
    > with avoid base, one with stay inside base firing range). What a
    mess.

    That I would call a siege. And then you only need superweapons to still
    be able to shoot at the enemy fleet. That is if no Aurora is present ,
    in which case only the Auroras Superlaser would fire.


    > Fortunately there's a simple solution. If you want to not engage a
    > base in battle, keep your distance from it. Stay 6ly away (or 12ly
    for
    > good measure, to not get drawn into a larger combat).That's avoid
    > base for me. If I want to attack a fleet over a base, or to blockade
    a
    > base, or to assimilate it, or to superlaser its planet, or whatever,
    > than it is implied that I go near enough to the base to get shot at
    > with ion cannons.
    > Simple. Stay far enough from the base to not engage it in VCR, or
    > accept that you have to fight it. The avoid base order is just an
    > unnecessary over-complification which was never needed in the first
    > place.

    Too simple. Problem is when planets are too near to each other...

    > Never needed? Oho. Than where does it come from? Ah, I remember. It
    was
    > only implemented to save big ships from getting shot to pieces by ion
    > cannons because they stopped being pushed away by the cannons. Oh my,
    > another mess. But this one fortunately has easy solutions, too. For
    > example, simply differ between shipbased weapons and planetbased
    > weapons. Big ships are immune versus shipbased push back. Versus
    > planetbased pushback they behave like in times dear, before this
    whole
    > problem of mass related combat behaviour.

    Again muuch tooo simple.
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    How about this? Have the VCR consider the "the ion cannon base owner's"
    ships ground targets. That way if the enemy fleet doesn't have Fire At
    Ground Targets active, then the base-defending fleet can fire at the
    enemy but not vice-versa. The defenders would effectively be under the
    defensive cloud of the base's ion cannons.

    This is an attempt to use in-place game mechanics instead of trying to
    invent a new button or page of buttons.

    Magik
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I totally agree with lord owl!
    1st ion cannons were strenghtened. now they were too strong and the
    avoid ground base switch was invented.
    but IMO now the base ion cannons are even more useless than before.
    that wasn't the intention of this change.

    so lord owls thoughts aren't bad until someone else comes up with
    better ideas.

    @nameless: did you say anything? everything you said was much tooooooo
    simple. do you have any ideas???
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    For once we disagree, Lord Owl.

    In VGAP it is not possible to hide your fleet beind planetary defense.
    Perhaps, because of athmosphere, short range planetary weapons, whatever.

    If you want to protect your base from being blockaded you need a fleet that
    can defend the enemy without planetary defense. That is good, because in
    late game it can happen that there are masses of mc and supplies (to build
    planetary defense), but few minerals. In that case your suggestion would
    make planetary defense *way* too strong.

    Ion cannons are still very useful when it comes to the next phase of
    attacking a base (1st phase: blockading it).
    2nd phase: Destroying it from orbit.
    You can only destroy a base from orbit, if you can take down the planetary
    defense.

    What you suggest would also be a solution, but I prefer the current one, as
    it supports blockading bases.

    What *may* be needed is a CC to prevent fighters to be launched as home
    guard, although there is no enemy ship fireing at the base (because they
    avoid base).
    This is, however, tricky if you think about it a bit.

    Lordfire


    "Lord Owl" <lord.owl@gmx.de> wrote in message
    news:1113225106.287446.288490@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
    >I have kept silent about that for a while now because I wanted to see
    > where it would go on ist own, but enough is enough.
    >
    > Right now we have the situation that a fleet, with avoid base, can take
    > apart an enemy fleet over a heavily fortified base without risking to
    > get shot at by base ion cannon fire. All for the sake of logic and
    > 'keeping their distance from the base'. To be fair we need now a
    > similar option for the defending fleet, to stay inside the protective
    > fire range of the ion cannons. That's what the cannons are there for
    > after all (anyone remembering the evacuation of Hoth?).
    > And we don't want to forget the base fighters. Right now they happily
    > leave the protective circle of the base ion cannons and AA guns to
    > engage the enemy and get killed. Consequently we'd need a 'stay
    > inside base fire range' order for the fighters, too. Both for wings
    > and the base fighters (not formed into wings yet).
    > Complicated. Absurd. Unnecessary.
    > And of course that would result into two complete fleets sitting atop
    > of each other at the same coordinates without fighting each other (one
    > with avoid base, one with stay inside base firing range). What a mess.
    >
    > Fortunately there's a simple solution. If you want to not engage a
    > base in battle, keep your distance from it. Stay 6ly away (or 12ly for
    > good measure, to not get drawn into a larger combat).That's avoid
    > base for me. If I want to attack a fleet over a base, or to blockade a
    > base, or to assimilate it, or to superlaser its planet, or whatever,
    > than it is implied that I go near enough to the base to get shot at
    > with ion cannons.
    > Simple. Stay far enough from the base to not engage it in VCR, or
    > accept that you have to fight it. The avoid base order is just an
    > unnecessary over-complification which was never needed in the first
    > place.
    >
    > Never needed? Oho. Than where does it come from? Ah, I remember. It was
    > only implemented to save big ships from getting shot to pieces by ion
    > cannons because they stopped being pushed away by the cannons. Oh my,
    > another mess. But this one fortunately has easy solutions, too. For
    > example, simply differ between shipbased weapons and planetbased
    > weapons. Big ships are immune versus shipbased push back. Versus
    > planetbased pushback they behave like in times dear, before this whole
    > problem of mass related combat behaviour.
    >
    > I love Planets. I love its complicated construct of possibilities and
    > rules. But sometimes the simple answer is indeed the best one. Put away
    > with avoid base, Tim, please.
    >
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    This has nothing to do with Birds. Everybody with a superlaser can do this.
    And in my opinion that is what super lasers are for!!

    What should be fixed is that Birds can actually blow up the planet even when
    then haven't killed the base!

    Lordfire

    "Greg Bahr" <greg.bahr@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1113231808.045517.58900@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >I have to say, I rather enjoy the Avoid Base. Playing in a game as the
    > Birdman, there is a great advantage. I can slip into orbit, destroy
    > all ships, ignore the base, and then blow it up with a Super Laser shot
    > from my Darkwing.
    >
    > Everyone still think it's a good idea?
    >
    > I have to agree with Lord Owl. It's great to have this level of
    > control. I'd much rather see better control over your ships
    > intentions.
    >
    > Example, Damn the Base, kill the fleet.
    >
    > or
    >
    > Damn the Fleet, kill the base.
    >
    > I think the whole combat model needs a major over haul.
    >
    > Greg Bahr
    >
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I write nonsense.....
    What I wanted to write is :)

    "This has nothing to do with Birds. Everybody with a superlaser can do this.
    And in my opinion that is what super lasers are for!!

    What should be fixed is that Birds can actually blow up the planet even
    when
    they haven't killed the fleet!"

    Lordfire


    "Lordfire" <a@b.com> wrote in message news:3bvk3cF6k0vlnU1@uni-berlin.de...
    > This has nothing to do with Birds. Everybody with a superlaser can do
    > this.
    > And in my opinion that is what super lasers are for!!
    >
    > What should be fixed is that Birds can actually blow up the planet even
    > when then haven't killed the base!
    >
    > Lordfire
    >
    > "Greg Bahr" <greg.bahr@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:1113231808.045517.58900@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >>I have to say, I rather enjoy the Avoid Base. Playing in a game as the
    >> Birdman, there is a great advantage. I can slip into orbit, destroy
    >> all ships, ignore the base, and then blow it up with a Super Laser shot
    >> from my Darkwing.
    >>
    >> Everyone still think it's a good idea?
    >>
    >> I have to agree with Lord Owl. It's great to have this level of
    >> control. I'd much rather see better control over your ships
    >> intentions.
    >>
    >> Example, Damn the Base, kill the fleet.
    >>
    >> or
    >>
    >> Damn the Fleet, kill the base.
    >>
    >> I think the whole combat model needs a major over haul.
    >>
    >> Greg Bahr
    >>
    >
    >
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Hi Guys,

    Let me see if I can shorten this for Tim's sake.
    Tim remember when you changed the raffa because it
    was an unstoppable attack type and everyone complained
    bitterly about that? That condition made you change
    the way glory devices work.
    Well here we have the same problem only all the nuances
    of this problem have not yet been exposed.
    So this newsgroup does not yet see this as unstoppable
    attack types. But then I did not see the glory device
    as an unstoppable attack type either, of course I think
    I was the only one that felt that way.
    To be honest I have developed several unstoppable attack
    methods with several different races with the avoid base
    combat logic.
    NOT ALL RACES ARE CAPABLE OF DOING THESE UNSTOPPABLE
    ATTACKS.
    So that in its self makes this unfair.
    Why these have not yet come to light? Because the method I have
    developed a month ago has not yet had an opportunity to be used
    in a real game. It is a very slow process to put these new
    complicated rules into maxium use and exploit them.
    Something on the order of 6-9 months in fact during a real game.
    So the real problems of this will not reach this news group yet
    for another 5-8 months.

    As Lord Owl, for example is just now discovering. More soon will
    follow his lead. Can a player avoid unstoppable attacks?
    Yes about as easy as trying to stop a raffa glory device attack.
    It can be done but is very hard and requires a lot of preplanning
    like 10+ turns.

    Is their a way to fix this? Under the current rules I can not see
    a fair way to create a fix honest. I believe that in the end we will
    scrap this system altogether and go back to the old method
    in which you could not avoid a base and it weapons then
    enhance the combat algorithims much like for example Gabor suggested
    in a different thread.
    These different algorithims could be used to limit your exposure or
    time over target to defensive fire. Sort of like a bomber strike
    over a city exposed to the AA fire. The faster and higher you go the
    less exposure to return fire. We need to reflect this strategy
    in VGAP. That is missing now.
    Like strike through for example.
    Allow a ship to accelerate toward a planet and fire a volley and
    exit the planet area of defensive fire recharge and go back for
    repeated runs. Hold at all costs should keep this ship attacking
    the base til it is destroyed or til the base is destroy or combat
    tic 5000 is reached. This does not work now by the way.

    Strategy and counter strategy needs to be in place inside the combat
    vcr commands. That is missing, right now we go from one extreme to
    another
    extreme. The fine balance is grotesquely missing from this game.
    The fine level of detail of this game attracts players that demand
    the same level of detail from the combat vcr and several
    strategy and counter strategy options that are believable and
    work while preserving the integrity and balance of the game.

    The current vcr falls way short of these goals.
    You will not hear the end of these complaints from these players
    until you do a major overhaul of the combat vcr that restores
    these elements to this game. Wow what a game this could be if
    the combat vcr really worked well!
    You have switches for several combat strategies included with the
    vcr. Problem is they do not work well nor as expected.
    May the force be with you on this Tim.
    I think you will need it.

    P.S. I gave you all the Ideas that would have worked well in the past
    on this newsgroup but they were in fact ignored.
    My guess is because they would have forced you to rewrite the entire
    combat code. And you somehow think you can just patch the current code
    and get it to work. I do not think that is possible now.

    Greg Bahr wrote:
    > I have to say, I rather enjoy the Avoid Base. Playing in a game as
    the
    > Birdman, there is a great advantage. I can slip into orbit, destroy
    > all ships, ignore the base, and then blow it up with a Super Laser
    shot
    > from my Darkwing.
    >
    > Everyone still think it's a good idea?
    >
    > I have to agree with Lord Owl. It's great to have this level of
    > control. I'd much rather see better control over your ships
    > intentions.
    >
    > Example, Damn the Base, kill the fleet.
    >
    > or
    >
    > Damn the Fleet, kill the base.
    >
    > I think the whole combat model needs a major over haul.
    >
    > Greg Bahr
  11. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I am looking at important issues that have to be addressed.

    1. The avoid base system was a bad idea, it makes ground base ion
    cannons almost completely useless. The plan now is to scrap the avoid
    base system. ION cannons will be weakened, so that they take down the
    shields quickly ( 8 units a hit ) and do minor damage to ship hulls and
    a little more to ship systems and can no longer hit a ship's soft spot.
    They will also have a small amount of bumping power.

    2. Large fighter swarms are out of control, however I think this might
    be a side effect of large sums of cash, which is becoming less and less
    of an issue as the over the top cash making gimmiks get taken out of
    the game.

    Tim
  12. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Yes, Tim - 2 Strikes! :-)))

    1. This is the first time I see a bad decision (I don't blame you for
    having done so, that is part of a devlopment process!) taken back and
    reconsidered. This really gives me hope! :-)))
    2. It seems there have already been quite some changes to address this
    unbalance. One is scaling the contra wins down, the other to need more
    bad blood for Liz pris selling. If now the LCs and LMs would work
    according to the same logic as the Liz pris selling, then I believe we
    are a good way down the road. There will still be overhelming
    economies, but that can not be avoided if you want to have many
    different ways to make your living from.
  13. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    cocomax wrote:
    > I am looking at important issues that have to be addressed.
    >
    > 1. The avoid base system was a bad idea, it makes ground base ion
    > cannons almost completely useless. The plan now is to scrap the avoid
    > base system. ION cannons will be weakened, so that they take down the
    > shields quickly ( 8 units a hit ) and do minor damage to ship hulls
    and
    > a little more to ship systems and can no longer hit a ship's soft
    spot.
    > They will also have a small amount of bumping power.
    >

    And I take it that ION Cannons will again fire at ships (unlike host
    190) if
    attack ground targets is off (and Anti Aircraft guns against wings).

    > 2. Large fighter swarms are out of control, however I think this
    might
    > be a side effect of large sums of cash, which is becoming less and
    less
    > of an issue as the over the top cash making gimmiks get taken out of
    > the game.
    >

    Well in that case why have you not removed the amorphs or the glory
    devices from the game? - And even then with increasing game duration,
    because of the 20 k object limit, wings will get bigger, since people
    will be able to make
    more stuff than their rp share would allow to spend in anything but
    really big fighter wings.

    And then a really strong Centaur fighter wing does not cost more than
    100 k mc -
    the lower type-1 fighter really reduces the costs of such wings.
    Of course there is for them usually no desire to make the wings too big
    (at least not bigger than 1200 or 500 - depending on whether the
    ShaiShan or the Shariza is used to carry them), because of the low
    travel range of the t-1 - but you could use (at about double cost of
    the wing) switch the t-1 to the t-2 so that the wing has a travel range
    of 120 (per turn).
  14. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    hellion wrote:
    > @nameless: did you say anything?

    Literally written no.

    >everything you said was much tooooooo
    > simple. do you have any ideas???

    Look at minnie-hammers post in this thread.
    This safes my time.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    That button is in the client!
  16. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    And in case you come to the conclusion that the combat logic still
    needs a major overhaul, you might also consider to remove all Exotic
    Techs which give a 100 % immunity against something, and also to look
    at all available combat exotics closely.
  17. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Lord Owl wrote:

    > Right now we have the situation that a fleet, with avoid base, can
    take
    > apart an enemy fleet over a heavily fortified base without risking to
    > get shot at by base ion cannon fire. All for the sake of logic and
    > 'keeping their distance from the base'. To be fair we need now a
    > similar option for the defending fleet, to stay inside the protective
    > fire range of the ion cannons. That's what the cannons are there for
    > after all (anyone remembering the evacuation of Hoth?).

    Well, the rebel fleet was on the ground, under a base-shield even,
    while it lasted-- perhaps the Star Destroyers were set to attack
    ground. speaking of which, why didn't the rebels try to make a boarding
    attack, while they had disabled the EE's SD's?

    Has anyone considered allowing ships to land & taking cover under base
    shield in the Military spaceports?--these must be ground, not orbital,
    structures, as they are protected by the shield. such ships might take
    damage in bombardments w/o cover of shields?

    On the other hand, some (most?) of VGAP's ships are of such size that
    they might collapse under their own weight (or drag?), making them
    unsuitable for atmospheric travel or landing. but then, the
    terrestrial spaceport must be building them by launching the prefab
    pieces into orbit, then rapidly assembling them.
  18. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Do Ion cannons actually need ord or consume ord?
    In my expirience they don't consume ord...

    Lordfire

    "cocomax" <cocomax@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:1113283002.398096.253910@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
    >I am looking at important issues that have to be addressed.
    >
    > 1. The avoid base system was a bad idea, it makes ground base ion
    > cannons almost completely useless. The plan now is to scrap the avoid
    > base system. ION cannons will be weakened, so that they take down the
    > shields quickly ( 8 units a hit ) and do minor damage to ship hulls and
    > a little more to ship systems and can no longer hit a ship's soft spot.
    > They will also have a small amount of bumping power.
    >
    > 2. Large fighter swarms are out of control, however I think this might
    > be a side effect of large sums of cash, which is becoming less and less
    > of an issue as the over the top cash making gimmiks get taken out of
    > the game.
    >
    > Tim
    >
  19. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    If there is no way to avoid combat with a base, any (base owned) ship can
    end a blockade, as attacing the obiting ship will cause combat with the
    base. If you don't attack and destroy the ship its presense also ends the
    blockade.

    > 1. The avoid base system was a bad idea, it makes ground base ion
    > cannons almost completely useless. The plan now is to scrap the avoid
    > base system. ION cannons will be weakened, so that they take down the
    > shields quickly ( 8 units a hit ) and do minor damage to ship hulls and
    > a little more to ship systems and can no longer hit a ship's soft spot.
    > They will also have a small amount of bumping power.
  20. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Why I don't like bases that always engage ships:

    It is impossible to just blockade a base.
    And that is very important for roleplaying!!

    Now I have to destroy every base I want under control - always killing
    millions of people.
    For all roleplaying games this is very bad news.

    Fortunately it can be countered with the Ion Cannon immunity ET - but then
    only for fleets without fighters.

    Not good at all!

    Lordfire

    "Sparrow" <e.kueper@gmx.net> wrote in message
    news:1113288766.333958.31360@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    > Yes, Tim - 2 Strikes! :-)))
    >
    > 1. This is the first time I see a bad decision (I don't blame you for
    > having done so, that is part of a devlopment process!) taken back and
    > reconsidered. This really gives me hope! :-)))
    > 2. It seems there have already been quite some changes to address this
    > unbalance. One is scaling the contra wins down, the other to need more
    > bad blood for Liz pris selling. If now the LCs and LMs would work
    > according to the same logic as the Liz pris selling, then I believe we
    > are a good way down the road. There will still be overhelming
    > economies, but that can not be avoided if you want to have many
    > different ways to make your living from.
    >
  21. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Try to hide a Gorbie (small moon) under a base shield :)

    Lordfire

    <jasonnorthrup@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:1113314069.841922.19130@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > Lord Owl wrote:
    >
    >> Right now we have the situation that a fleet, with avoid base, can
    > take
    >> apart an enemy fleet over a heavily fortified base without risking to
    >> get shot at by base ion cannon fire. All for the sake of logic and
    >> 'keeping their distance from the base'. To be fair we need now a
    >> similar option for the defending fleet, to stay inside the protective
    >> fire range of the ion cannons. That's what the cannons are there for
    >> after all (anyone remembering the evacuation of Hoth?).
    >
    > Well, the rebel fleet was on the ground, under a base-shield even,
    > while it lasted-- perhaps the Star Destroyers were set to attack
    > ground. speaking of which, why didn't the rebels try to make a boarding
    > attack, while they had disabled the EE's SD's?
    >
    > Has anyone considered allowing ships to land & taking cover under base
    > shield in the Military spaceports?--these must be ground, not orbital,
    > structures, as they are protected by the shield. such ships might take
    > damage in bombardments w/o cover of shields?
    >
    > On the other hand, some (most?) of VGAP's ships are of such size that
    > they might collapse under their own weight (or drag?), making them
    > unsuitable for atmospheric travel or landing. but then, the
    > terrestrial spaceport must be building them by launching the prefab
    > pieces into orbit, then rapidly assembling them.
    >
  22. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    One way to handle it is set up a bonus system with fleets in orbit
    around planets that have AA guns, ion guns, and base shields. For
    example if a planet has ion guns then all ships get a + to hit based on
    # of ion guns and do extra system damage based on the # of ion guns.
    With AA guns sand casters and pd do extra fighter damage and have extra
    range vs fighters. With base shields ships with a mass less then
    something have a shield bonus. This would solve the Avoid ground attack
    because the bonus is included with the fleet. Best of all the bonus
    could stay even if the fleet is attacking the base. Why, because it
    would be considered a coordinated attack/defense, which we need more of
    in this game anyway.

    Lord Owl wrote:
    > I have kept silent about that for a while now because I wanted to see
    > where it would go on ist own, but enough is enough.
    >
    > Right now we have the situation that a fleet, with avoid base, can
    take
    > apart an enemy fleet over a heavily fortified base without risking to
    > get shot at by base ion cannon fire. All for the sake of logic and
    > 'keeping their distance from the base'. To be fair we need now a
    > similar option for the defending fleet, to stay inside the protective
    > fire range of the ion cannons. That's what the cannons are there for
    > after all (anyone remembering the evacuation of Hoth?).
    > And we don't want to forget the base fighters. Right now they happily
    > leave the protective circle of the base ion cannons and AA guns to
    > engage the enemy and get killed. Consequently we'd need a 'stay
    > inside base fire range' order for the fighters, too. Both for wings
    > and the base fighters (not formed into wings yet).
    > Complicated. Absurd. Unnecessary.
    > And of course that would result into two complete fleets sitting atop
    > of each other at the same coordinates without fighting each other
    (one
    > with avoid base, one with stay inside base firing range). What a
    mess.
    >
    > Fortunately there's a simple solution. If you want to not engage a
    > base in battle, keep your distance from it. Stay 6ly away (or 12ly
    for
    > good measure, to not get drawn into a larger combat).That's avoid
    > base for me. If I want to attack a fleet over a base, or to blockade
    a
    > base, or to assimilate it, or to superlaser its planet, or whatever,
    > than it is implied that I go near enough to the base to get shot at
    > with ion cannons.
    > Simple. Stay far enough from the base to not engage it in VCR, or
    > accept that you have to fight it. The avoid base order is just an
    > unnecessary over-complification which was never needed in the first
    > place.
    >
    > Never needed? Oho. Than where does it come from? Ah, I remember. It
    was
    > only implemented to save big ships from getting shot to pieces by ion
    > cannons because they stopped being pushed away by the cannons. Oh my,
    > another mess. But this one fortunately has easy solutions, too. For
    > example, simply differ between shipbased weapons and planetbased
    > weapons. Big ships are immune versus shipbased push back. Versus
    > planetbased pushback they behave like in times dear, before this
    whole
    > problem of mass related combat behaviour.
    >
    > I love Planets. I love its complicated construct of possibilities and
    > rules. But sometimes the simple answer is indeed the best one. Put
    away
    > with avoid base, Tim, please.
  23. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Good Idea, make the ION Cannons just consume Tons of Ore instead of making
    them weaker...

    splitted


    "Lordfire" <a@b.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:3c14lkF6jp61mU1@uni-berlin.de...
    > Do Ion cannons actually need ord or consume ord?
    > In my expirience they don't consume ord...
    >
    > Lordfire
    >
    > "cocomax" <cocomax@aol.com> wrote in message
    > news:1113283002.398096.253910@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
    >>I am looking at important issues that have to be addressed.
    >>
    >> 1. The avoid base system was a bad idea, it makes ground base ion
    >> cannons almost completely useless. The plan now is to scrap the avoid
    >> base system. ION cannons will be weakened, so that they take down the
    >> shields quickly ( 8 units a hit ) and do minor damage to ship hulls and
    >> a little more to ship systems and can no longer hit a ship's soft spot.
    >> They will also have a small amount of bumping power.
    >>
    >> 2. Large fighter swarms are out of control, however I think this might
    >> be a side effect of large sums of cash, which is becoming less and less
    >> of an issue as the over the top cash making gimmiks get taken out of
    >> the game.
    >>
    >> Tim
    >>
    >
    >
  24. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I agree with Nameless' comments about the ET giving 100% immunities.
    It's too much and can throw the game balance right out the window. I
    still like the ETs but would like to see some of them toned down a bit.
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