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Maximising your minefield immunity(!)

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Anonymous
April 13, 2005 3:26:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Is the following still true? -

Way back in December 2002, Gabor Törö did some number crunching on the
odds to hit mines. He noticed that a ship flying at 90LY through a 25LY
thick barbitic minefield had nearly 80% odds of not hitting any mines.
That means 4 of 5 ships travel to the center of a 50LY diameter field
and get no hit?
> Could that be?

I calculate the odds to be about 30% to hit at least 1 mine. The
formula USED to include (rt+1)^2, but I believe it's now ^3. Look at
the host changes...

If we use grav mines instead of Barbitic... the chances jump up to
61%. Laser mines: 85% Web mines? 98% !!

Roger Norris explained it thus:

Oddly enough...cutting your speed in half, to 45, actually INCREASES
your chances of hitting a mine in this case (to about 35% for
barbitics)! The reason is because you're inside the minefield twice
as long. Host does the mine hit calculations every movement phase,
not every lightyear... the increased number of chances to hit a mine
(2x more chances since you're going twice as slow) more than makes up
for the decreased chance of hitting a mine during every movement
phase.

It looks like the optimum speed to go through any minefield is about
93, except of course for the speeds at which you can't hit minefields
:) 

The WORST speed to attempt a minefield at is one higher than the
minefield immunity speed.
--
Paul Honigmann
April 13, 2005 3:26:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Sorry, I don't think that's still true... better do some sims to
double-check. I wouldn't trust the formulas in the docs.
April 13, 2005 3:26:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

> If we use grav mines instead of Barbitic... the chances jump up to
> 61%. Laser mines: 85% Web mines? 98% !!

All new stuff to me, and good to know. Not too sure there should be an
optimum speed to go through a minefield other than slower. Is that
percentage you are calculating to hit or to avoid hit? I hope it's to hit,
else something is very wrong methinks.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 10:02:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I believe 93ly is calculated ideal speed to travel through fields.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 1:26:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yes, but it's also best not to be predicatable.

If they know you are going to proceed at 93 LY a turn over a good
distance in a straight line, a Robot can arrange to drop several
minefields that same turn that your inside and detonate. BOOM! BOOM!
BOOM!

Optimum speed for webs though is max safe speed, at all speeds greater
than safe speed it is very unlikely that they'll escape hiting a mine
long enough to have traveled past max safe speed.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 6:49:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

True the detonations might get them, but the most likely scenario is a
robot ship givaway. Here take my ships, they have 2% hull damage.
Mines arnt a problem, just cruise on through! Welcome aboard!
Anonymous
April 14, 2005 2:28:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yes, the Cybernaught can carry 23,400 guests that can board any ship
with hull or sys damage.
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 10:51:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yes interesting topic,
An enemy fleet of 6 Pulsars just blew itself to badly damaged and
reduced strength travelling at 26 Ly thru 5 grav minefields.
They were all overlapping and his fleet was only ever in 3 at any 1
time max. But always in at least 2.
Well at least the 3 that still exist had a speed setting of 26...tho
they r between 20% and 90% hull damaged.
The other 3 pulsars were not so lucky and hit a few 2 many grav
mines...maybe they went faster to intercept my Moscow.??

Mind u 3 minefields do not exist now due to running out of mines so to
speak...They hit heaps.

Cheers.
Emperor Leeroy.
Anonymous
April 30, 2005 2:37:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I asked:

>Is the following still true? -
>
>Way back in December 2002, Gabor Törö did some number crunching on the
>odds to hit mines.
....
>Roger Norris explained it thus:

>It looks like the optimum speed to go through any minefield is about
>93, except of course for the speeds at which you can't hit minefields


I haven't been able to find anyone who KNOWS if that is correct, so I
tested it with Host 193 in a scripted game: I found:
Crossing 76LY of a barbitic minefield,

* 8 / 8 Fed Vendettas travelling at speed 93 were destroyed. Doesn't
seem very safe to me!
* 22 / 26 Fed Vendettas travelling at speed 45 were destroyed. They
only crossed 45LY of the 76LY of course - this was in one turn. The
remaining four may well have died too, except the minefield ran out of
energy after being hit so many times! Still not very safe.

So personally, I think I'll be sticking to low speeds, or big ships...

I may do some more scripted simulations to see if there are any
interesting results lurking in there. Do cloakers hit mines less often
or not? Etc...
--
Paul Honigmann
May 3, 2005 11:44:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I'm afraid that we can't draw any conclusions from your limited test
data. With such a small sample number, chance plays a HUGE role. A
quick calculation shows that, even if your test case for the slower
ships was optimal and the faster ships were just as likely to hit
mines, I would still expect all 8 of the faster vendettas to be
destroyed 70% of the time.

A useful test would need to include at least 50 ships for both cases...
and I would lean towards more. Also, you need them to both go through
the same distance of minefields, even though they're traveling at
different speeds.

(From my own tests, I have come to the conclusion that the faster
speeds are not actually better, and that the documentation is probably
inaccurate)

=============================

Quick math...
22 / 26 vendettas destroyed over 45 lightyears
= 84.615 % chance of being destroyed over 45 lightyears
= 4.07% chance of hitting a mine per lightyear
= 95.8% chance of a single vendetta being destroyed over 76 lightyears
= 70.7% chance of all 8 vendettas being destroyed over 76 lightyears

( Yes, this calculation does not take into account that the faster
vendettas should have a different probability of hitting a mine.
However, I'm simply trying to show that this data is not sufficient to
prove that faster speeds are worse. )
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 9:27:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Use ships that are a little less fragile than a Vendetta.

LIttle ships that only take 1 hit to destroy should rarely attempt to
fly through a field... they will just die.

Big Ships don't care, they just shrug off the damage.

Medium ships, this is where the speed varience is interesting. Ships
around 200-500 kt. Moving the 'correct' speed can be the difference
between life and death.
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 3:08:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

LeeSMaz wrote:
> Yes interesting topic,
> An enemy fleet of 6 Pulsars just blew itself to badly damaged and
> reduced strength travelling at 26 Ly thru 5 grav minefields.
> They were all overlapping and his fleet was only ever in 3 at any 1
> time max. But always in at least 2.
> Well at least the 3 that still exist had a speed setting of 26...tho
> they r between 20% and 90% hull damaged.
> The other 3 pulsars were not so lucky and hit a few 2 many grav
> mines...maybe they went faster to intercept my Moscow.??
>
> Mind u 3 minefields do not exist now due to running out of mines so
to
> speak...They hit heaps.
>
> Cheers.
> Emperor Leeroy.

you say they hit grav minefields,or you detonated them?

if they hit them, we need to update the docs again.
quote:

>Gravitonic Minefields
>Gravitonic Minefields (commonly called gravs) will force a hyper
>jumping ship out of hyperspace into normal space. It will also prevent
>a hyper jump ship from jumping away. The ship is then forced to use
its >standard engines to leave the minefield before jumping.

>Detonating Fields
>Gravitonic minefields cause damage to ship engines when they detonate.
>A 100kt ship takes 10% engine damage, larger ships take less damage to
>their engines. Hyperdrive engines take 10% damage from detonating
>Gravitonic minefields no matter what their mass is.

>The Enforcers have a special flavor of Gravatonic minefield that can
do >25% ship control system damage if detonated over an enemy ship.

on second look, these docs are inconsistent anyway; they don't say
what happens when ships simply hit laser or web mines (when they don't
detonate)
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 1:47:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

jasonnorthrup@yahoo.com schrieb:
> LeeSMaz wrote:
>
>>Yes interesting topic,
>>An enemy fleet of 6 Pulsars just blew itself to badly damaged and
>>reduced strength travelling at 26 Ly thru 5 grav minefields.
>>They were all overlapping and his fleet was only ever in 3 at any 1
>>time max. But always in at least 2.
>>Well at least the 3 that still exist had a speed setting of 26...tho
>>they r between 20% and 90% hull damaged.
>>The other 3 pulsars were not so lucky and hit a few 2 many grav
>>mines...maybe they went faster to intercept my Moscow.??
>>
>>Mind u 3 minefields do not exist now due to running out of mines so
>
> to
>
>>speak...They hit heaps.
>>
>>Cheers.
>>Emperor Leeroy.
>
>
> you say they hit grav minefields,or you detonated them?
>
> if they hit them, we need to update the docs again.

What doc do you mean / read.
Hitting a Grav, Laser Mine by flying through them with warp make some
damage and enough can destroy a ship. Maybe except really large ships
where a Laser minehit may not make enough damage for 1% hull damage and
then it's rounded to zero (don't know the code).
For what do you think it gives save warp speed for all sort of mines ?

Look at the minefield guide at Klingonen Kommand
http://www.furfur.demon.co.uk/geop/index.html .
It's seems me correct and actuel as I checked it last. Maybe not updated
for the last host changes on mines, not check it yet.

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
May 14, 2005 4:57:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

jasonnorthrup@yahoo.com schrieb:
> nospam wrote:
>
>
>>What doc do you mean / read.
>
>
> I refer to the online docs at
> http://www.vgaplanets.com/v4doc/startf.htm
> or http://www.vgaplanets.com/v4doc/minefield.htm

I read Tims docs carefully. That not means that they all wrong or
correct. Often the things have a "sideeffect" which are not written
about like Grav Mines doing damage if hit with warp speed.

So you know one more to read about mines now.

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 1:12:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

nospam wrote:

> Look at the minefield guide at Klingonen Kommand
> http://www.furfur.demon.co.uk/geop/index.html .
> It's seems me correct and actuel as I checked it last. Maybe not
>updated for the last host changes on mines, not check it yet.

according to http://www.furfur.demon.co.uk/geop/index.html
>Damage from running into a barbitic minefield:
>Hull Damage = (100 / hull_mass) * (RND * 100 + 100) //
>RND is a number from 0 to 1
>IF (RND * 50) < Hull_SoftSpot THEN Ship_DamageHull = Ship_DamageHull
>+ (RND * 200) + 20
> Note: no one's ever seen a big ship destroyed by one mine
>hit, so I don't know why there is a reference to Soft Spot here - PH

Well, the if the first line is source verbatim, it's strange that "Hull
Damage" is a different word than "Ship_DamageHull"

or perhaps "Ship_DamageHull" needs to point to which specific ship gets
this damage.
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 1:22:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

"jasonnorthrup@yahoo.com" writes

>according to http://www.furfur.demon.co.uk/geop/index.html
>>Damage from running into a barbitic minefield:
>>Hull Damage = (100 / hull_mass) * (RND * 100 + 100) //
>>RND is a number from 0 to 1
>>IF (RND * 50) < Hull_SoftSpot THEN Ship_DamageHull = Ship_DamageHull
>>+ (RND * 200) + 20
>> Note: no one's ever seen a big ship destroyed by one mine
>>hit, so I don't know why there is a reference to Soft Spot here - PH
>
>Well, the if the first line is source verbatim

I think Tim sent me that code about 2 years ago so it may be inaccurate
now.

>, it's strange that "Hull
>Damage" is a different word than "Ship_DamageHull"

I probably edited it to make it clearer to the casual reader. I can't
remember now, years later.
--
Paul Honigmann
!