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Starships Review (The Venshad Superiority)

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April 20, 2005 3:29:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Hi,

The Venshad Superiority project is almost on it's end (after being
worked for almost 4 years)!

By now there are only a few things yet to be done, and thats why I am
writing this post.

I need some opinions about the overall statistics of my fleet. As the
word "balance" is not something well defined in terms of VGAP race
design, I would really appreciate some info about what do people think
about the race as it is now.

The URL is http://venshad.tripod.com

Thanks!

Bruno
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 4:39:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

The dirt-cheap tech 2 chunneler with a 500ly hyperjump may be just a
wee bit out of line....

The Olympus, with tech 11 engines and tech 10 generators, puts out
1,750 energy per tic. The Shield Hypercharger will be on 100% of the
time, as that still leaves 750 energy to be divided among the weapons.
You could supply a couple LTLAs and still have plenty of energy to fill
out the rest of the ship.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 5:16:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Just some comments that came to my mind while lookingn briefly at the
race page:

- Why are the fighters faster than the ships? The speed reduction as a
major flaw is a very good idea, but a 150-200 ly fighter travel range
isn't really a DISadvantage.

- VERY strong T3 fighter, even for the MCs it costs. But the needed HG
per fighter wont allow you to build them in large numbers.

- I don't like ship devices that work in two different ways just
depending on who owns them. Such a feature makes the game just
over-complexe and extremely difficult to lear for newbies.

- The hypercharger is a little over the top. On the other hand... with
20 000 armor and 30 000 mass - who cares about the shields? I would
recommend decreasing the armor and mass significantly but keep the
hypercharger (s.th. like 7 000 armor, 10 000 mass).

- Please rename the Prominence, there's already such a ship in the
game. This ship should also have a higher tech (according to it's cost
and weapons). The too-low-tech applies to many hulls in your list.

- The dark powers combined with the high troops combat rating and the
use of ground units makes this race absolutley unbeatable in ground
combat. They could even easily overrun a cyborg HW... I'm not sure if
this is sick or cool :-)

- They can only lay laser MFs... right? And have no GFG or any other
way to defend against HYP races. I like this. Up to this point I did
not see any major weakness (one could easily find a work-around for the
speed thing).


I like to define the playability-factor of races by their weaknesses.
Usually the more weak sides a race has the more fun it is to play.
- native problem
- HG problem (need lots of them!)
- nothing but laser MFs
- 50ly max speed with the possibility of only 1 JPG ship in your whole
fleet

This could work! Would not be my personal style of playing planets but
why not?

Fabian
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 9:43:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

What speed problem? They have a dirt-cheap tech 2 chunneler with a
500ly hyperjump. Combined with the JPG (which they start with), they
have no problems going wherever they want.

I'd say that this might end up leaving them tight on fuel, but they
also start with a Fuel Converter. With the low minerals needed for
hulls they can just through their excess into that.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 10:19:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

as i said: the speed problem is no real problem since there are
work-arounds.

but: the chunnler is supposed to transport just wings and troops afaik.


and: the JPG ship has no other ability to move except HYP and it needs
a lot more fuel to use it's JPG.

I don't like this super-super-dreadnought, neither the idea to give 'em
one in turn 1.

Fabian
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 10:29:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I would suggest to remove all towing capacities on all ships.

Add a gravitonic stabilizer to the Neptune.

These disadvantages would add perfectly to the movement restrictions.

Fabian
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 11:25:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

-----------------------------------------
but: the chunnler is supposed to transport just wings and troops afaik.
-----------------------------------------

I had forgotten it was a limited chunnel, but it isn't limited to wings
and troops. It is wings and "mechs", which, I believe, are all of the
giant robot style ships.
April 21, 2005 4:13:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Greetings to all!

Frist I would like to thank you all that posted comments here! Since my
last post I thought this could be nothing more than foolish
criticisms... but (fortunately) I was wrong!

Well, I knew that people would fight about the Olympus' stats. I really
agree that an ordinary ship should never be an over-the-top juggernaut,
however, the Olympus is not an ordinary ship. The lack of a good
planetary colonization method has lead the VS to depend heavily on this
imense capital ship. In fact, the olympus IS their homeworld, so I
would not like to see the most important ship in all the empire be
blown away by superweapons in a few seconds, thats why I gave it a
tremendous ammount of armor and shield power.

As said before, the tech 2 chunneler chunnels only pods, wings and
mechs. No starships allowed. It is designed to be some kind of deep
space probe, that has some odds of destroying the incoming objects...

About the Prominence, I started this project in 2001, and I do not
remember what other race has a ship with the same name. If it is older
than mine I will gladly make a new name for the ship.

Removing the towing capacity seems an interesting choice for further
balance.

The T3 fighter is designed to be a real killer as I decided to focus
the VS on "small scale" combat. The basis of the VS empire are
Highguard Rangers. Without them they can not build their best weapons
(T3 fighter and assault unit and mechs). IMO this is their worst
disadvantage.

About fighter speed, I didn't know that those numbers were also related
to speed. I thought they were only a mesure of how many ly they could
travel without refueling.

Again I'd like to thank you for your comments!

Bruno
April 21, 2005 4:18:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Could you explain what is a gravitonic stabilizer?
April 21, 2005 4:39:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Venshad wrote:
> Could you explain what is a gravitonic stabilizer?

He means an orbital stabilizer.
Which prevents the ship from being towed also prevents it from
chunneling, using wormholes and Jumpgates (and Jumppointgenerators and
been affected by a Warp Bubble).
For Detailed Info look at the Ships Devices on Tims site.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 4:48:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I find the Olympus very interesting, and really the driving point of
the race design. It's both the economic and military center of the
race, and you only get one of them.

I'm actually the one who suggested starting with an Olympus instead of
a homeworld, to help them stand out more. Starting with ships instead
of a homeworld is very rare in Planets, and I thought it made sense
with the Venshad with their mobile homeworld. As we've seen with the
COM, this requires the ship be severely weakened at the start lest it
overrun homeworlds. But it can work.

That said, I still disagree with some things about the Olympus. The
hyp range just seems too good, for instance.

Scytale
April 21, 2005 8:48:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Scy! Good to hear from you!

Yep, the jump range is the best possible by now. Maybe dropping it to
500 ly should lessen the advantages.
April 21, 2005 8:48:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Scy! Good to hear from you!

Yep, the jump range is the best possible by now. Maybe dropping it to
500 ly should lessen the advantages.
April 21, 2005 8:49:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Scy! Good to hear from you!

Yep, the jump range is the best possible by now. Maybe dropping it to
500 ly should lessen the advantages.
April 21, 2005 8:52:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Scy! Good to hear from you!

Yep, the jump range is the best possible by now. Maybe dropping it to
500 ly should lessen the advantages.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 8:54:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

exactly.
April 21, 2005 9:56:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

By now the Olympus, according to the VS Player Guide, starts with all
internal systems damaged from 5% to 95% each, with 10 streak missiles,
ordinary shields and engines (not a big threat).
By the way, someone knows how to calc the number of repair units needed
to fix 1% of a chosen ship (eg. the olympus)?
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 2:17:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yes the Prominence is a ship already in use in the Solarian Unity race.

If ur purpose was to make the ships and fighters 2 expensive to have
lots of them, y did u give the race a high growth and income rate.

I like the scanners, especially that 10% chance 2 light up a cloaked
ship.

Your free mechs maybe 2 much of a good thing. Have 2 do the maths on
starting pop 2mill, 40 free mechs type 1 etc. 800mc. Dont know if this
is that important. Cybernetics chamber.. didnt think about the assault
plant freeby as only 1 of each mech per 500,000 col. Tho on 2 mil
colonists this is 1000mc per turn.

You have some unstoppable attacks built into this race.
Either lose the super weapon & hyperion sup laser or the ground
operations device. Actually the ground operations needs to go.

Not sure but the scythe ship, yes classed as a mech so super weapons
and large weapons cannot target it, has ground operations device which
negates a base shield??? Does this mean a small cheap fleet of say 10
could destroy a HW with a base shield?? And any small defenses put up.
Attack and evasive modifiers etc.

Just looking at a lot of the ships, if the ground operations negates
base shields then it should b removed from the race all together.

Also noting high attack and evasive bonuses.

The Prominence hull, noting 8 pd..tho your guide stated to use fighters
against them for their poor pd.? Max 10 pd on any hull. 8 is pretty
good.
And the 10 evasive. High attack and good weaponry at tech 5.
Good armour and shield too. 1500 ea.
Maybe should b tech 6 and or less pd? I dont know.

The Nimbus may b too low in the tech level. 1000 fighters. Good armour
and shields...6 pd good weaponry..this is a battle cruiser. And I think
is too cheap in cash and minerals. Attack 30 bonus. Maybe tech 7.

The Neptune, maybe just 1 up the tech level, looks interesting,lots of
devices, 7 pd , need to sim this ship in battle but it is more a space
station with modest defenses. Make it none towable.

Spectre, again just high attack and evade, ground operations.
I'd suggest moving the chunneler to this hull. And lower the tech
level.

Phalanx assault ship, just a bit, think should be much lower tech 5
and say 1500 shield. Possibly add a small fighter bay. Less small
weapons and less pd.

Dominion battle cruiser, is more like a dreadnaught, Probably should be
more expensive with that 7500 armour and 3000 shield capability. full
set of weapons. Attack bonus 70??? Maybe change it to 10.

The Olympus fortress is a nice touch, can the Venshad live on a planet?
I thought they could. If this is the case then the Olympus should have
no more then 12000 armour. Bringing them in line with the COM. It
should also have its hype range reduced to 400 or 350. Attack bonus 120
is a bit much. Maybe lower to 30.

Tractor towing power should b scaled back somewhat on all ships or
removed.

Not sure if the probe deserves a chunnel device. It is only a probe.
Evasive 100??

I think your type 2 and 3 fighters are 2 strong. The missile range,
accuracy and qty of them. Reduce the range 1000 and 900 down to around
400.

Is the race attribute about the streak missiles having 90% less pd
against the Venshad enemies or is it the Venshad have a hard time of
intercepting streaks??

Non too keen about some of the ships being classed as mechs and large
weapons having no effect on them?? And no boarding actions possible
against them or super weapons hitting them....Nemesis. This race power
should be removed. Ie. they should be classed as a ship not a mech...no
strange powers of large weapons etc not being able to hit them or going
thru the non ship chunnel device.

I do feel like you are designing another Solarian Unity race crossed
with the Draconians, which has been nothing but a topic of refinement
to balance them.

The Solarians just had their growth rate drastically reduced in a bid
to balance them with the other races and the race designer of the
Dracs got lost somewhere in his revamp of them.

Cheers.
April 22, 2005 10:30:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

no contraband likes?
Common, they will love the emotion chips...

You may consider making the Olympus immune to spy attacks.
Would be a shame to loose this ship/homeworld/central bank by a bad
luck spy operation...

You may also consider some Priv aspects. Would be a shame to loose the
whole central bank account to an lucky MBR.

One other point, as you described and I look at it it really seems that
they have EVERYTHING to live in space. Not like the CoMs who will need
to have bases for special buildings or keeping natives. Nothing, they
even never would have Natives/Prisoners nor need them.
The question is why they should be allowed to form bases anyway? To
keep their population growing? I think you should make them dependent
on bases in one or other way or you should only allow them to build
assault bases, with mechs, fighters, troops crew and HG but no
colonists in. A "colonist can only live at ships race". This would be a
new expierience to play.
Therefore you may increase the Neptunes passanger quarters. Or think
about a "Second Olympus allowed" Exotic tech with costly upkeep.
But these are my thoughts to make the race more special.
The main point is; Groundbase, Why?
At last its your race and you know how it would look best to you.

One last point which I consider to be a problem.
The Hyp of the Olympus as mentioned before it is too high. The main
problem is that this Homeworld can jump outside the map and who can
find them there, who can move there before they jump again otherwhere?
This mobile Homeworld concept is not bad - As long as they are inside
the map.
You should consider to lower the Hyp Range greatly (40-50) or (what I
consider faar more intresting) leave the Hyp range as it is and the
jump target of the Olympus must be a star. (which I find reasonable
considering the energy and gravity requirements of such a starbase). Or
give them a good deal of punishment if not (BIG hull damage, 20% death
of passengers or something). This way the Olympus is bound to the map
at least.
I don't see how a Fed/Bird/Stormer/Scav/Robot could hunt it down
otherwise in any way.
In fact I don't see how the Bird should ever find the Olympus 300 ly
outside the map...

But please don't look to hard at my critic, I am really thankful for
new races, diffrent strategies and other concepts. Keeps the game
intresting.
Therefore I thank you (and others) for developing 3rd party races as
well as Tim to open the game to them.

If you need a group of people who can do a testgame with your race for
balancing/debugging you are welcome.

Good luck, Loki
April 22, 2005 11:31:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

LeeSMaz wrote:
> Yes the Prominence is a ship already in use in the Solarian Unity
race.
Ok, I'll figure out and change the name.

> If ur purpose was to make the ships and fighters 2 expensive to have
> lots of them, y did u give the race a high growth and income rate.
the very purpose of this thread is to fiz these loose screws. I'll take
a look at the growth/income rates. By now the VS pays 3 times the price
of large weapons.

> I like the scanners, especially that 10% chance 2 light up a cloaked
> ship.
Thanks!

> Your free mechs maybe 2 much of a good thing. Have 2 do the maths on
> starting pop 2mill, 40 free mechs type 1 etc. 800mc. Dont know if
this
> is that important. Cybernetics chamber.. didnt think about the
assault
> plant freeby as only 1 of each mech per 500,000 col. Tho on 2 mil
> colonists this is 1000mc per turn.
As the VS is a kind of space race, I'd like to buy or earn assault
units in space.

> You have some unstoppable attacks built into this race.
> Either lose the super weapon & hyperion sup laser or the ground
> operations device. Actually the ground operations needs to go.
Ground Operations was designed to increase the attack ration on ground
combats. However, giant robots are easier to land on planets and attack
directly enemy bases, thats why I allowed it to ignore the base's
shields.

> Not sure but the scythe ship, yes classed as a mech so super weapons
> and large weapons cannot target it, has ground operations device
which
> negates a base shield??? Does this mean a small cheap fleet of say 10
> could destroy a HW with a base shield?? And any small defenses put
up.
> Attack and evasive modifiers etc.
In VCR combat the mechs should ignore any base shield, but not other
defenses. Mechs are at the same scale as fighters, so they are ships
for construction purposes, but "fighters" for role play purposes.

> Just looking at a lot of the ships, if the ground operations negates
> base shields then it should b removed from the race all together.
>
> Also noting high attack and evasive bonuses.
This can be fixed.

> The Prominence hull, noting 8 pd..tho your guide stated to use
fighters
> against them for their poor pd.? Max 10 pd on any hull. 8 is pretty
> good.
I suggest fighters against the VS because a swarm of fighters can
easily destroy the capital ships. Besides, other races fighters are
cheaper than those of the VS.

> And the 10 evasive. High attack and good weaponry at tech 5.
> Good armour and shield too. 1500 ea.
> Maybe should b tech 6 and or less pd? I dont know.
It is inevitable that there are some blank spaces betwen tech levels.
I'll take a look at them.

> The Neptune, maybe just 1 up the tech level, looks interesting,lots
of
> devices, 7 pd , need to sim this ship in battle but it is more a
space
> station with modest defenses. Make it none towable.
I like the idea of a stationary station.

> Dominion battle cruiser, is more like a dreadnaught, Probably should
be
> more expensive with that 7500 armour and 3000 shield capability.
full
> set of weapons. Attack bonus 70??? Maybe change it to 10.
I will consider its attack reduction.

> The Olympus fortress is a nice touch, can the Venshad live on a
planet?
> I thought they could. If this is the case then the Olympus should
have
> no more then 12000 armour. Bringing them in line with the COM. It
> should also have its hype range reduced to 400 or 350. Attack bonus
120
> is a bit much. Maybe lower to 30.
Yes, they can settle on planets, but need to deal with natives.
Planets, by now, are breeder worlds, making troops and assault/fighter
units.

> Not sure if the probe deserves a chunnel device. It is only a probe.
> Evasive 100??
I'll see it.

> I think your type 2 and 3 fighters are 2 strong. The missile range,
> accuracy and qty of them. Reduce the range 1000 and 900 down to
around
> 400.
Scytale himself suggested these numbers, based upon my idea of what
they should be. I trust his juggment.

> Is the race attribute about the streak missiles having 90% less pd
> against the Venshad enemies or is it the Venshad have a hard time of
> intercepting streaks??
Venshads have better odds of attacking enemies with streak missiles.

> Non too keen about some of the ships being classed as mechs and large
> weapons having no effect on them?? And no boarding actions possible
> against them or super weapons hitting them....Nemesis. This race
power
> should be removed. Ie. they should be classed as a ship not a
mech...no
> strange powers of large weapons etc not being able to hit them or
going
> thru the non ship chunnel device.
Nemesis torpedo is the only SW capable of striking mechs. I also denied
boarding actions because there is only 1 crew per mech!

> I do feel like you are designing another Solarian Unity race crossed
> with the Draconians, which has been nothing but a topic of refinement
> to balance them.
Really? I came with new concepts to the game, with a new role play
option for players. Stats *may* be similar, but playability is
different.

> Cheers.

Thanks again!
April 22, 2005 11:45:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Loki wrote:
> no contraband likes?
> Common, they will love the emotion chips...
Hehehe. lets see...

> You may consider making the Olympus immune to spy attacks.
> Would be a shame to loose this ship/homeworld/central bank by a bad
> luck spy operation...
A great idea!

> You may also consider some Priv aspects. Would be a shame to loose
the
> whole central bank account to an lucky MBR.
Another great idea! However, sometimes I feel disconfortable of making
something ONLY to counter a specific race attack/ability.

> One other point, as you described and I look at it it really seems
that
> they have EVERYTHING to live in space. Not like the CoMs who will
need
> to have bases for special buildings or keeping natives. Nothing, they
> even never would have Natives/Prisoners nor need them.
> The question is why they should be allowed to form bases anyway? To
> keep their population growing? I think you should make them
dependent
> on bases in one or other way or you should only allow them to build
> assault bases, with mechs, fighters, troops crew and HG but no
> colonists in. A "colonist can only live at ships race". This would be
a
> new expierience to play.
> Therefore you may increase the Neptunes passanger quarters. Or think
> about a "Second Olympus allowed" Exotic tech with costly upkeep.
> But these are my thoughts to make the race more special.
> The main point is; Groundbase, Why?
> At last its your race and you know how it would look best to you.
I like the idea of an assault base. I need to consider it carefuly. If
one Olympus is getting me some trouble, imagine two!

> One last point which I consider to be a problem.
> The Hyp of the Olympus as mentioned before it is too high. The main
> problem is that this Homeworld can jump outside the map and who can
> find them there, who can move there before they jump again
otherwhere?
> This mobile Homeworld concept is not bad - As long as they are inside
> the map.
This is a two way road:
1- Yes, they can jump outside the map.
2- Their top speed is 50ly/turn. If the Olympus is outside the map,
they will have a hard time to reach their enemies (the olympus is the
only place where they can build ships, mechs, type 3 assault
units/fighters AND Highguards).

> You should consider to lower the Hyp Range greatly (40-50) or (what I
> consider faar more intresting) leave the Hyp range as it is and the
> jump target of the Olympus must be a star. (which I find reasonable
> considering the energy and gravity requirements of such a starbase).
Or
> give them a good deal of punishment if not (BIG hull damage, 20%
death
> of passengers or something). This way the Olympus is bound to the map
> at least.
Interesting idea. Maybe we should say that on a "blind" jump (without a
star to guide) they have a X% chance to go into other random direction.

> I don't see how a Fed/Bird/Stormer/Scav/Robot could hunt it down
> otherwise in any way.
> In fact I don't see how the Bird should ever find the Olympus 300 ly
> outside the map...
I dont remember if they have now, but grav mines should allow some
problems to the VS.

> But please don't look to hard at my critic, I am really thankful for
> new races, diffrent strategies and other concepts. Keeps the game
> intresting.
> Therefore I thank you (and others) for developing 3rd party races as
> well as Tim to open the game to them.
Thanks!

> If you need a group of people who can do a testgame with your race
for
> balancing/debugging you are welcome.
As soon as I finish it I will be glad to test it with company!

> Good luck, Loki
April 22, 2005 3:04:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I've been thinking about the Hyperjump question and found something
interesting: I could target the jump to the Intruder, so the Olympus
could only jump with safety in locations where Intruders are. Otherwise
there is a % chance of being jumped to another random place.
April 23, 2005 1:52:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I've added the statement above to the Olympus (must target a star or an
Intruder; there is a 1% chance for every 10 lys that the fleet arrives
on a random location, with only small weapons operating and
shieldless). I've also reduced greatly the sensor range of the entire
fleet (mechs 50, capital ships 150, Intruder and Neptune 200 and
Olympus 300). I've added another racial advantage based upon Master of
Orion 2 (at the end of each movement phase, every ship repairs 1-10% of
damage of all systems, depending on the number of crew members present)
April 27, 2005 5:02:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Intresting solution for the olympus.
Needs to be tested.
Perhaps you can find a good solution for the mbr, too.

Loki
April 28, 2005 10:53:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Thanks!

By now, the only way to travel with safety is to lock on a
star/intruder. Otherwise the have a % to go to another direction.
!