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current VCR stuff going of on the news

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Anonymous
June 13, 2005 1:27:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

You guys want/vote for a specific improovement of the P4-Combat with exactly
given rules. The thing is that Tim seems to be very unhappy with VCR (at
least Gabor told so) and the communety, too. So the intentien is to help him
(what I think is a good intention:) .

But I do doubt that you´ll help him if you give yust detailed wishes. I
think this will not lead to the desired target. Your wishes go partly far
over what is in the the current code. So your aim seems to be get a complete
new combat (with all the beatiful new things you proposed). If this is what
you want, then you should start structured. Define you space before you
define things before you define the rules between things. I learned at
informatics at university that before you define code or even rules you
define what is there and then which object can influence wich object. And
later you start to define how the influence work and in the end you code. So
if you do want to do this serious then you should start serious. As there´s
some human resource out here in P4 community one needs a structure and a
structure will lead to fewer bugs and easier understandable code. (note: I
do not study informatics nor can I code well. There a some people who should
know the procedure of set up a new programm better than I do. I hope they
can give additional commant and give this thing a structure if it is going
on).

I think such a project would be a great thing for P4. Even if Tim decides to
code or fix the current engine such an combat engine could be implemented
later as 3rd party combat. And Tim could get some ideas from it. I do think
if the intefaces of the engines a defined correctly the should not be a big
problem for Tim for code a combat-interface-dll.

I don´t know if there´s any chance that such a project will ever be started
or if such a thing is meant by the current votings/code discussions. But if
no one proposes it´ll sure start newer. Tim cannot code all the things alone
(I think there´s really enough work till P4 goes gold). But if there´s such
a similar thing started it´ll surely help Tim focus on the rest of P4-code
and get P4 gold. One could even give the rights of the coe to Tim (similar
to 3rd party race pictures)

What do you think of this? I appreceate any comment.

Greetings
Sebastian

More about : current vcr stuff news

June 13, 2005 1:27:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Well what do you think I am doing (or why I have not voted)? You see we
have already some kind of model,
and I am for one thing doing some kind of analysis of this model (not
that much structured (and not too formal) in the way it is presented,
but it would cost me a whole lot more time doing it structured - and it
would not necessarily be more comprehensible for the majority). It is
perferable to change the existing model than to just start from scratch
(if we would start from scratch I do not see a chance that we will have
it implemented this year if done by Tim alone, same can be said if the
changes to the model are too big). Otherwise you are more or less
right.


BTW proper term is computer science not informatics.
June 13, 2005 1:27:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

It's seems to me that many are expecting combat to be an exact science.
In reality there is always a FOG OF WAR. Any major war veteran will
tell you that most battle plans last until the first shot is
fired...then it all goes its own way.

So long as the same rules apply to everyone...why complain about
results? IF a battle doesnt turn out the way you wanted, learn from it
and change something and pray for a lil luck in battle :) 

As in real life, there is no way to accurately predict the outcome of
any battle. A boy with a jackknife can win against a genius with a
nuclear bomb. It's unlikely, but not impossible. So why not just accept
the way things are and adjust to it?

Call it the Fog of war factor...heheh

The game is GREAT and the object of a game is to have fun, eh?
So have fun!
Later
Monk
Related resources
June 13, 2005 1:29:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Tim unhappy with the community? Where is this stated or gleemed from?

"Sebastian" <Sebastian@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:3h3hi3FerfoiU1@news.dfncis.de...
>
> You guys want/vote for a specific improovement of the P4-Combat with
exactly
> given rules. The thing is that Tim seems to be very unhappy with VCR (at
> least Gabor told so) and the communety, too. So the intentien is to help
him
> (what I think is a good intention:) .
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Well Monk,
You might call it "fog of war" but where do you stop being happy?
"throwing dices" ?

There is in my believe a fundamental difference between Korea, Vietnam,
Yugoslavia etc and a battle in space.

There is nowhere to hide, beams are lightspeed, movement is engines and
there is no time for (false) human-human communications. To stick to
the metaphor:
"There is no fog in space".

A battle is -in my opinion- a battle between battle computers with an
uncertainty in information of the status of the hostile ship(s) and the
limit in calculating the PD-Success. Sounds boring in the first place,
but the complexity, the sum up of erratic behaviour and the risk, a
captain is going to accept against probabilities is what makes
light-speed battle interesting.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:11:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Well Monk,
You might call it "fog of war" but where do you stop being happy?
"throwing dices" ?

There is in my believe a fundamental difference between Korea, Vietnam,
Yugoslavia etc and a battle in space.

There is nowhere to hide, beams are lightspeed, movement is engines and
there is no time for (false) human-human communications. To stick to
the metaphor:
"There is no fog in space".

A battle is -in my opinion- a battle between battle computers with an
uncertainty in information of the status of the hostile ship(s) and the
limit in calculating the PD-Success. Sounds boring in the first place,
but the complexity, the sum up of erratic behaviour and the risk, a
captain is going to accept against probabilities is what makes
light-speed battle interesting.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 9:23:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Fog of War does not mean stupid commanders. That is the difference.

Being in the Military, I have to say from personal experience that none
of these ship commmanders would be in command after their first battle.
Failure to execute orders will cause that. SInce we cannot replace
incompetent ship Captains in this game (as you can in real life), I'd
hope that at least they would attempt to do as ordered... at least then
it wouldn't be as frustrating. I understand what fog of war is... that
is not what this whole discussion is about.

Example:

Ship set to destroy ground base, no defensive structures...

Ship enters VCR, heads to base, fires small weapons, leaves base area,
flies around screen some, VCR ends. Base lives.


That is not Fog of War. That is a problem that needs fixed. The reason
people want something a little more predictable is so they can tell if
VCR is working correctly. They don't want to always be able to predict
a combat result (at least no one I know does) they would just like to
predict the _likely_ outcome.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 11:35:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Oh? Does this mean that discussion for the VCR is called for? =)

Well, like stated it could be good to fix the excisting model rather
than to build a new one, but let me just say (referring to ALL the
science fiction battles I can recall) what strikes as odd in my
opinion: The objects in the VCR are (90% of the time) too fast. When
I think of a space battle between two space ships it's pretty much like
picturing two massive old time frigates (with the sails and all)
shooting at each other with the cannos from point blank range. The
fighters (in sci-fi) are the fast ones, we don't much see Galacticas or
Borg Cubes circling around planets during battles. I think the only
occasion I recall a ship circling around the star, it ended in the past
(One of the Star Trek movies =).

Maybe it could look something like this?

"Default Attack Settings" -ship VS Default Attack Settings" -ship

A ship "challenges" an enemy to a battle, meaning 2 ships approach each
other directly. Once in range firing starts, neither ship backs away,
both close to point blank range. (bit like in VGA3 actually but with
several battles going on at the same time). They are there to kill
each other, why not let them?

"Stay off range" - ship VS "Default Attack Settings" - ship
Once again two ships will challenge each other into a battle, they
close. Once the ship with the Stay Off Range reaches it's limits it
tries to keep it. If it's the faster ship, it's succesful. Ok, so
photon torpedoes would be weapon of choice most of the time. Maybe
we'd need a beam weapon with a similliar range? Escapes would also be
easier - unless the attacker used multiple approach vectors.

If a ship is set to escort another ship it sticks with the escort
target firing at any enemy ship in range. Any formation would move at
the speed of the slowest ship in formation. If ship has a kill target
set, it tries to close in on that ship at first.

And so on and so forth. =)

Skies
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 11:35:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yes, you are correct.

And as I've written to some posting of sparrow: Then main point about many
poeple are complaining is the point that there is at the moment no straight
line pursuiting or escaping for ships and maybe also for wings but there it
doesn't matters so much as they take advantage from their greater speed.

Once we have a


"Skies" <jhollanti@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1118673349.271150.124380@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Oh? Does this mean that discussion for the VCR is called for? =)
>
> Well, like stated it could be good to fix the excisting model rather
> than to build a new one, but let me just say (referring to ALL the
> science fiction battles I can recall) what strikes as odd in my
> opinion: The objects in the VCR are (90% of the time) too fast. When
> I think of a space battle between two space ships it's pretty much like
> picturing two massive old time frigates (with the sails and all)
> shooting at each other with the cannos from point blank range. The
> fighters (in sci-fi) are the fast ones, we don't much see Galacticas or
> Borg Cubes circling around planets during battles. I think the only
> occasion I recall a ship circling around the star, it ended in the past
> (One of the Star Trek movies =).
>
> Maybe it could look something like this?
>
> "Default Attack Settings" -ship VS Default Attack Settings" -ship
>
> A ship "challenges" an enemy to a battle, meaning 2 ships approach each
> other directly. Once in range firing starts, neither ship backs away,
> both close to point blank range. (bit like in VGA3 actually but with
> several battles going on at the same time). They are there to kill
> each other, why not let them?
>
> "Stay off range" - ship VS "Default Attack Settings" - ship
> Once again two ships will challenge each other into a battle, they
> close. Once the ship with the Stay Off Range reaches it's limits it
> tries to keep it. If it's the faster ship, it's succesful. Ok, so
> photon torpedoes would be weapon of choice most of the time. Maybe
> we'd need a beam weapon with a similliar range? Escapes would also be
> easier - unless the attacker used multiple approach vectors.
>
> If a ship is set to escort another ship it sticks with the escort
> target firing at any enemy ship in range. Any formation would move at
> the speed of the slowest ship in formation. If ship has a kill target
> set, it tries to close in on that ship at first.
>
> And so on and so forth. =)
>
> Skies
>
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 12:46:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

"Eric" <AzureMonster@AzureMonsters.Lair> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:FO1re.18686$fp6.13903@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Tim unhappy with the community? Where is this stated or gleemed from?

Eric, you are refering to the sentence "The thing is that Tim seems to be
very unhappy with VCR (at
least Gabor told so) and the communety, too" from Sebastian, right?

Now, I think Sebastian meant to say that that Tim and also the community are
unhappy with VCR...
;-)
June 13, 2005 12:59:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Do you really think Tim wants to start a complete new combat model
Sebastian, or Nameless? I would welcome that but I really, honestly
doubt that he will start with that again from zero. Also I doubt that
Tim will take the time for that even if he has the desire to do so.
Consequently I would start a discussion about (1) improving the
existing one with (2)minimum effort. We could help with the discussion,
rest is not in our hand.

Cheers
June 13, 2005 1:56:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Loki wrote:
> Do you really think Tim wants to start a complete new combat model
> Sebastian, or Nameless?

Well if you would have read carefully what I have written so far you
would not have mentioned me in this question. And consequently I will
leave it to you to
answer that question (I won't correct you on this).
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 2:10:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

>> Tim unhappy with the community? Where is this stated or gleemed from?
>
> Eric, you are refering to the sentence "The thing is that Tim seems to be
> very unhappy with VCR (at
> least Gabor told so) and the communety, too" from Sebastian, right?
>
> Now, I think Sebastian meant to say that that Tim and also the community
> are unhappy with VCR...
> ;-)

This is what I meant:) 

Greetings
Sebastian
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 7:42:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

david_bandy@hotmail.com schrieb:
> Fog of War does not mean stupid commanders. That is the difference.
>
> Being in the Military, I have to say from personal experience that none
> of these ship commmanders would be in command after their first battle.
> Failure to execute orders will cause that. SInce we cannot replace
> incompetent ship Captains in this game (as you can in real life), I'd
> hope that at least they would attempt to do as ordered... at least then
> it wouldn't be as frustrating. I understand what fog of war is... that
> is not what this whole discussion is about.
>
> Example:
>
> Ship set to destroy ground base, no defensive structures...
>
> Ship enters VCR, heads to base, fires small weapons, leaves base area,
> flies around screen some, VCR ends. Base lives.
>
> That is not Fog of War. That is a problem that needs fixed. The reason
> people want something a little more predictable is so they can tell if
> VCR is working correctly. They don't want to always be able to predict
> a combat result (at least no one I know does) they would just like to
> predict the _likely_ outcome.

ACK.

I have nothing against it that I lost a fight (I often lost combats), but
I'm interested to know the reasons why I lost or my ships / wings not do
what they should do (is it a bug or give I wrong orders or await to much).

At the moment I as RCS must stop a Solorian and don't know why I lost my
forces mostly without doing a shoot on the enemy. Ships are killed at tick
20+ before they fire back by fighters and that with ships with AF-PD and
SCs mounted. Wings not shoot a single shoot .... .
(BTW, can Wings fire from ct (combat tick) 20 on or so and ships start
firing from ct 50+ ? Seems me so and then it seems me a little buggy or
where is the rule for it, can not remember them. Or that Super Weapons can
fire at ct 310+, remeber it should be at ct 400.)

So for me seems the VCR or the Solorian or the RCS be buggy. And I see no
solution what I can change to do it better. (But stop fighting will harm
the other enemies of the Solorian in the game and so I try my best to slow
down the speed of Solorian and hope the best and lost.)

Other thing is, how can I look for bugs if noone (or I) not know what is
going on. And it is often said, that we are in Beta and shall look for bugs.

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 10:39:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Wings (and cloakers, afaik) can shoot at tic 1 in combat. Everyone else has
to wait til tic 50.
Superweapons fire whenever they are fully charged, which for some ships with
large enough power banks means at tic 310, when said power bank gets dumped
into the weapons systems.

Ralph Hoenig, Germany

"nospam" <j_schwarze_@freenet.de> schrieb

> (BTW, can Wings fire from ct (combat tick) 20 on or so and ships start
> firing from ct 50+ ? Seems me so and then it seems me a little buggy or
> where is the rule for it, can not remember them. Or that Super Weapons can
> fire at ct 310+, remeber it should be at ct 400.)
>
> Bye-Bye JoSch.
June 14, 2005 12:01:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I humbly disagree that there is no fog of war in space. Perhaps in a
situation where only a small number of vessels are engaged but consider a
large fleet battle with dozens if not more ships and hundred if not
thousands of fighters, there are places to hide and there is always time for
false human-human communications. Watch episodes of the Battlestar
Gallactica or the opening battle in Star Wars episode three to see chaos in
space portrayed pretty well. Another thing to consider is that most often
race A is *not* going to have much information about race B's
ships/fighters/mechs or anything else in the enemy's military. Since this is
a game and we all have the luxury of looking at the enemies ship specs as if
they are our own we eliminate some of that 'fog of war', but in a real
universe situation race A will not have that luxury and that alone creates
fog. Also, Tim has yet to intoduce ion storms, which will have an effect of
creating fog as well I'm sure.

Cheers,
Eric


"sun_z_eros" <andreaskoehler@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:1118653883.288385.131630@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well Monk,
> You might call it "fog of war" but where do you stop being happy?
> "throwing dices" ?
>
> There is in my believe a fundamental difference between Korea, Vietnam,
> Yugoslavia etc and a battle in space.
>
> There is nowhere to hide, beams are lightspeed, movement is engines and
> there is no time for (false) human-human communications. To stick to
> the metaphor:
> "There is no fog in space".
>
> A battle is -in my opinion- a battle between battle computers with an
> uncertainty in information of the status of the hostile ship(s) and the
> limit in calculating the PD-Success. Sounds boring in the first place,
> but the complexity, the sum up of erratic behaviour and the risk, a
> captain is going to accept against probabilities is what makes
> light-speed battle interesting.
>
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 9:18:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Also the beam range of those solorian Type II fighters is very large,
they can fire from outside your PD range (or beam range of your
fighters) many times. If he's using Type I, then their missiles are
crippling if they get close enough.

As Ralph said, it has always been Tick 1 & 50, respectively.
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 4:19:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

> Do you really think Tim wants to start a complete new combat model
> Sebastian, or Nameless?

I don´t think that Tim wants that or will do that until he thinks the
current code is such a mess that it cannot be fixed. Even if he wants to
have another engine there´s lack of time, I think.

I wrote this post cause I saw big wishlists and big talking about things in
VCR that are not covered in the current code. The wishlist are so big that
even if Tim want it out in everything it takes very long to implement all
the things people want. Either one has to develop ones own engine or stop
producing pages of wishes.
I would appreceate if the current engine is fixed. The dependencies are in
the current engine. They should be kept. A voting about additional features
is only needed if the current engie in working and Tim want to put in
additional features.

Also a development group is only needed if there´s acutally something to
develop for the group and together with the group. This means: Tim ask the
group if someone has an idea how to do this and that with given input and
given return with a piece of code (and the only one being asked for help is
Gabor atm) so currently there´s nothing to develop for the group. If one
develop without being ask then go for a own VCR engine.

Greetings
Sebastian
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 8:16:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

david_bandy@hotmail.com schrieb:
> Also the beam range of those solorian Type II fighters is very large,
> they can fire from outside your PD range (or beam range of your
> fighters) many times. If he's using Type I, then their missiles are
> crippling if they get close enough.
>
> As Ralph said, it has always been Tick 1 & 50, respectively.

The Solorian use only 9/0/1 Wings in the past and at the moment and it
seems to me that they make the damage of the T1(900) about the range of
the T3(600). Have seen enough destroyed ships to think that they work so
and that seems me wrong cause they must not come close enough, Bug, hidden
feature of the Solorian or I'm interpreting the VCRs wrong ?

Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 8:01:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Hi !
Is there now a dedicated vcr subfolder somewhere ?
Please ignore if you are not interested in gamer's frustration.

- where is the logic when it is in the majority of the battles that I
capture a ship that I kill tags later. Sounds like killing the boarding
team myself....

- The issue that vcr finishes a battle after 340 tags of 450 with both
ships still alive and kicking, ord available etc etc has been discussed
here before I guess.. Still hugely annoying..

This is really frustating.. Hours of planning and killed by the vcr and
not the enemy..

Well, well..
Yes I know, beta
Cheers
Andreas




nospam wrote:
> david_bandy@hotmail.com schrieb:
> > Also the beam range of those solorian Type II fighters is very large,
> > they can fire from outside your PD range (or beam range of your
> > fighters) many times. If he's using Type I, then their missiles are
> > crippling if they get close enough.
> >
> > As Ralph said, it has always been Tick 1 & 50, respectively.
>
> The Solorian use only 9/0/1 Wings in the past and at the moment and it
> seems to me that they make the damage of the T1(900) about the range of
> the T3(600). Have seen enough destroyed ships to think that they work so
> and that seems me wrong cause they must not come close enough, Bug, hidden
> feature of the Solorian or I'm interpreting the VCRs wrong ?
>
> Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
June 27, 2005 8:07:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Hi !
Is there now a dedicated vcr subfolder somewhere ?
Please ignore if you are not interested in gamer's frustration.

- where is the logic when it is in the majority of the battles that I
capture a ship that I kill tags later. Sounds like killing the boarding
team myself....

- The issue that vcr finishes a battle after 340 tags of 450 with both
ships still alive and kicking, ord available etc etc has been discussed
here before I guess.. Still hugely annoying..

This is really frustating.. Hours of planning and killed by the vcr and
not the enemy..

Well, well..
Yes I know, beta
Cheers
Andreas




nospam wrote:
> david_bandy@hotmail.com schrieb:
> > Also the beam range of those solorian Type II fighters is very large,
> > they can fire from outside your PD range (or beam range of your
> > fighters) many times. If he's using Type I, then their missiles are
> > crippling if they get close enough.
> >
> > As Ralph said, it has always been Tick 1 & 50, respectively.
>
> The Solorian use only 9/0/1 Wings in the past and at the moment and it
> seems to me that they make the damage of the T1(900) about the range of
> the T3(600). Have seen enough destroyed ships to think that they work so
> and that seems me wrong cause they must not come close enough, Bug, hidden
> feature of the Solorian or I'm interpreting the VCRs wrong ?
>
> Bye-Bye JoSch.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 5:42:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I see your posting 2 times. Do you not think one is enough ?

Bye-Bye JoSch.

sun_z_eros schrieb:
> Hi !
> Is there now a dedicated vcr subfolder somewhere ?
> Please ignore if you are not interested in gamer's frustration.
>
> - where is the logic when it is in the majority of the battles that I
> capture a ship that I kill tags later. Sounds like killing the boarding
> team myself....
>
> - The issue that vcr finishes a battle after 340 tags of 450 with both
> ships still alive and kicking, ord available etc etc has been discussed
> here before I guess.. Still hugely annoying..
>
> This is really frustating.. Hours of planning and killed by the vcr and
> not the enemy..
>
> Well, well..
> Yes I know, beta
> Cheers
> Andreas
!