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Good quality DVD's for archiving

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February 12, 2005 11:38:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Evening all

I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
or dye to use.

What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
certain brand/dye.

Cheers all

Antony
February 12, 2005 11:38:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
in the back of my car in case the house burns down....

Antony wrote:
> Evening all
>
> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
> or dye to use.
>
> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
> certain brand/dye.
>
> Cheers all
>
> Antony
>
>
>
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 6:13:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <rgood@netzero.com> wrote:

>One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
>I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
>the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
>DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
>come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
>dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
>in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
>
>Antony wrote:
>> Evening all
>>
>> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
>> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
>> or dye to use.
>>
>> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
>> certain brand/dye.
>>
>> Cheers all
>>
>> Antony
>>
>>
>>



There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I have
the link and info some ware..


These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US, in
Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..

If you are interested I will post the info..
Related resources
February 14, 2005 6:13:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill

Very much so, if you can find it that will be a great help.

R's

Antony
<BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn> wrote in message
news:fknu015s2jub7s6bhtt39mcp7uqb85pob0@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <rgood@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>>One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
>>I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
>>the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
>>DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
>>come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
>>dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
>>in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
>>
>>Antony wrote:
>>> Evening all
>>>
>>> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently
>>> on my
>>> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which
>>> brand
>>> or dye to use.
>>>
>>> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be
>>> using
>>> certain brand/dye.
>>>
>>> Cheers all
>>>
>>> Antony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I
> have
> the link and info some ware..
>
>
> These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US,
> in
> Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..
>
> If you are interested I will post the info..
>
>
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 6:13:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn" posted:
"...
These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US,
in
Colorado.
...."

They are great ... I love them ... BUT

CD-R only!

NO ARCHIVAL DVDs ... (yet).







<BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn> wrote in message
news:fknu015s2jub7s6bhtt39mcp7uqb85pob0@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <rgood@netzero.com> wrote:
>
> >One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
> >I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
> >the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
> >DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
> >come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
> >dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
> >in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
> >
> >Antony wrote:
> >> Evening all
> >>
> >> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently
on my
> >> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which
brand
> >> or dye to use.
> >>
> >> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be
using
> >> certain brand/dye.
> >>
> >> Cheers all
> >>
> >> Antony
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
> There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I
have
> the link and info some ware..
>
>
> These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the
US, in
> Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..
>
> If you are interested I will post the info..
>
>
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 6:14:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:

> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <rgood@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>>One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
>>I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
>>the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
>>DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
>>come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
>>dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
>>in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
>>
>>Antony wrote:
>>> Evening all
>>>
>>> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
>>> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
>>> or dye to use.
>>>
>>> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
>>> certain brand/dye.
>>>
>>> Cheers all
>>>
>>> Antony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I have
> the link and info some ware..
>
>
> These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US, in
> Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..

Do they make a DVD yet? That's archival, I mean?
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:D d-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/&gt;
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/&gt;
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/&gt;
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/&gt;
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 12:03:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
> Do they make a DVD yet? That's archival, I mean?

Yes, see this, presumably these would work for DVD+R also:

http://www.mam-a.com/products/dvd_product_list.htm

As to whether they are archival, it's too soon to tell.
The Mitsui (non MAM-A) gold/phthalocyanine optical discs
perform well in accelerated aging tests, but in real life,
dye fading has been observed.
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 12:33:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:

> Have a read of this, but why Pick DVD-R....??
>
> http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11368

Good, that's the first I've seen of extended-life DVD blanks. Of
course "the cost of premium-grade DVD can be as little as a few
dollars per piece" is a bit scary.

As to why DVD-R -- I dunno why they chose it, but that's the one that
I could actually use, so I'm not complaining. It had a clear early
lead. They may be figuring the medical people invested in it and
haven't upgraded drives since then.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:D d-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/&gt;
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/&gt;
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/&gt;
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/&gt;
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 12:42:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Antony wrote:
> Evening all
>
> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are
> currently on my hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little
> confused as i don't know which brand or dye to use.

Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is "None of them".

And this has nothing to do with Brand A vs B, etc. Its the DVD format
itself.

Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:

"...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose
data..."

In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
"best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.

- - -

What was recommended to me was to get an external USB/Firewire drive
enclosure that uses standard 3.5" hard drives that each gets mounted on
a removable sled. Here's one example of one such product (no
endorsement implied):

http://www.firewiremax.com/fire-wire-1394-ilink/firremc...

The archiving plan is 3 copies, so you buy 1 enclosure + 3 sleds + 3
drives.

For the above example vendor, the enclosure + sleds runs $85 + 3*$14 =
$127, plus pricewatch is claiming that 250GB drives are currently
running just over $100 each, so for ~$500, you get 250GB of redundant
storage.

You can do the same thin with the 35GB Iomega REV drive, but you'll pay
roughly the same price, but only end up with 35GB of redundant storage.
The REV is a lousy product choice because of its comparatively high
cost per GB.

Antony wrote:
> Evening all
>
> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are
> currently on my hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little
> confused as i don't know which brand or dye to use.

Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is "None of them".

And this has nothing to do with Brand A vs B, etc. Its the DVD format
itself.

Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:

"...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose
data..."

In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
"best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.

- - -

What was recommended to me was to get an external USB/Firewire drive
enclosure that uses standard 3.5" hard drives that each gets mounted on
a removable sled. Here's one example of one such product (no
endorsement implied):

http://www.firewiremax.com/fire-wire-1394-ilink/firremc...

The archiving plan is 3 copies, so you buy 1 enclosure + 3 sleds + 3
drives.

For the above example vendor, the enclosure + sleds runs $85 + 3*$14 =
$127, plus pricewatch is claiming that 250GB drives are currently
running just over $100 each, so for ~$500, you get 250GB of redundant
storage.

You can do the same thin with the 35GB Iomega REV drive, but you'll pay
roughly the same price, but only end up with 35GB of redundant storage.
At ~7x higher cost per GB, the REV is a lousy product choice.


Antony wrote:
> Evening all
>
> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are
> currently on my hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little
> confused as i don't know which brand or dye to use.

Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is "None of them".

And this has nothing to do with Brand A vs B, etc. Its the DVD format
itself.

Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:

"...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose
data..."

In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
"best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.

- - -

What was recommended to me was to get an external USB/Firewire drive
enclosure that uses standard 3.5" hard drives that each gets mounted on
a removable sled. Here's one example of one such product (no
endorsement implied):

http://www.firewiremax.com/fire-wire-1394-ilink/firremc...

The archiving plan is 3 copies, so you buy 1 enclosure + 3 sleds + 3
drives.

For the above example vendor, the enclosure + sleds runs $85 + 3*$14 =
$127, plus pricewatch is claiming that 250GB drives are currently
running just over $100 each, so for ~$500, you get 250GB of redundant
storage.

You can do the same thin with the 35GB Iomega REV drive, but you'll pay
roughly the same price, but only end up with 35GB of redundant storage.
At ~7x higher cost per GB, the REV is a poor value.


FWIW, since you're only looking for 80GB of storage, you could back
down from 250GB drives to 160GB drives (only 2x the 80GB you currently
say you need) and these are currently ~$65 each, so the total cost
would come down to around $350.


-hh
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 10:38:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

If you read carefully, their selling points were

= = = = = Begin Quote = = = = =
Maxell Medical DVD-R's hardcoat top layer delivers increased data longevity
and protection for twice the archival and storage lifespan. Compared to
conventional DVDs, Maxell Medical DVD-R is:

-- 40 times more scratch-resistant

-- 20 times more dust-resistant

-- 20 percent more light-resistant

-- Smudge- and fingerprint-repellent
= = = = = End Quote = = = = =

OK ... so they have enhanced PHYSICAL properties with a "tougher" outer
(case) materials.

How about the actual data layer? is **that** archival? It seems to me that
the selling point to Mitsui's Archival Gold (CD) disks is the superior
properties of the actual data recording layer.

IMHO: It appears that "More Information" is needed.









"David Dyer-Bennet" <dd-b@dd-b.net> wrote in message
news:m21xbgseoh.fsf@gw.dd-b.net...
> BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:
>
> > Have a read of this, but why Pick DVD-R....??
> >
> > http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11368
>
> Good, that's the first I've seen of extended-life DVD blanks. Of
> course "the cost of premium-grade DVD can be as little as a few
> dollars per piece" is a bit scary.
>
> As to why DVD-R -- I dunno why they chose it, but that's the one that
> I could actually use, so I'm not complaining. It had a clear early
> lead. They may be figuring the medical people invested in it and
> haven't upgraded drives since then.
> --
> David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:D d-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/&gt;
> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/&gt;
> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/&gt;
<http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/&gt;
> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/&gt;
February 16, 2005 11:33:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"-hh" <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote in message >
> "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
> levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
> archiving.

Unfortunately, CDs were not designed as archival media, either.

The Library of Congress and the National Archives have been reportedly
experimenting with CDs that have a layer of glass shielding their data side.
I don't know what their findings have revealed.

The exceedingly frustrating aspect of this is that we are all burning CDs in
big numbers, hoping that they will still be readable in 75 years, and
knowing that it is unlikely that there will be any CD readers in another 25
years. In addition, the file formats may become the data equivalent of
dinosaurs by then.

Kodak suggests, on their website, that one way to archive photos is to make
PRINTS of them, and to store them under as close to optimal conditions as
possible. The more I read about the pitfalls of file formats and media
life, the more sensible that recommendation sounds.
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 6:40:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:14:25 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b@dd-b.net> wrote:

>BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <rgood@netzero.com> wrote:
>>
>>>One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
>>>I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
>>>the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
>>>DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
>>>come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
>>>dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
>>>in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
>>>
>>>Antony wrote:
>>>> Evening all
>>>>
>>>> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
>>>> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
>>>> or dye to use.
>>>>
>>>> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
>>>> certain brand/dye.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers all
>>>>
>>>> Antony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I have
>> the link and info some ware..
>>
>>
>> These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US, in
>> Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..
>
>Do they make a DVD yet? That's archival, I mean?




Have a read of this, but why Pick DVD-R....??


http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11368
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 11:51:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>
> Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:
>
> "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
> levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
> archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose data..."
>
> In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
> checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
> "best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.

Not to denigrate Ken Rockwell (I'll save that for another time)
but this is wrong. DVD-R and especially DVD+R are data formats,
not movie formats, and have error correction built in. See:

http://cdfreaks.com/article/113
February 17, 2005 12:28:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I was a professional historian for many years and did a fair amount of
research in archives and got to know archivists well. Even did a
project for the NY Times to put a lot of material on microfiche
(remember that!). The one thing we can count on is that there is a lot
of fretting, as well as unknowns about any new archival medium. The
other thing we can count on is that most media end up working pretty
well if precautions are taken, and very often the issue is how much we
want to go through aggravation, particularly if the archived material
is to be viewed often. That's why many historical societies and
libraries are backing up precious photos and documents to cdr's or
dvd's, with one copy going into storage and the other being made
available to the public. The photos and paper thereby get an extra
layer of protection.

I've had two instructional experiences today that allow me to
appreciate digital media. First, I'm now listening to a digital
transcription of a cassette tape made from a long playing record over
thirty years ago. I was able to clean it up with an audio program and
having backed it up to both a cdr and dvd it sounds almost new. But
interestingly, the tape itself is still in fine shape, and that despite
predictions that cassette tapes had a short life span. In fact, of my
many hundreds of cassettes, only a small handful have failed, and
mainly from having a pressure pad all off (easily fixed). I'll be
thrilled if my cd's and dvd's last that long, but won't worry because
another medium will be coming along soon enough to replace them
(probably nifty mass storage low priced flash cards -- anybody know
anything about their lifespans?)

My other (sad) but instructive lesson is that this morning I spilled
some coffee on an old and precious slide I had scanned. The phone rang
and, well, you know the rest of the story. Fortunately, I had done my
scan and the photo is safely tucked away on a hard drive and website.
Soon it will be on a dvd-r. None of my photos will meet the fate of my
family's photo collection, which was destroyed in a flood.

Finally, were I truly worried about all this I would go the route of
purchasing hard drives and putting them in USB enclosures or just
getting good external products marketed by Maxtor, etc. I've used both
succesfully and am guessing that USB will be around a lot longer than
cdr's and dvd's. Just guessing, but not really fretting. Oh, now I do
a fair amount of work around healthcare IT and have had dealings with
backup/security companies and I do know they are placing a heck of a
lot of faith in dvd technology, and many large corporations, including
Dell, are offering third party dvd solutions to their medical
customers.


Bill Tuthill wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
> >
> > Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:
> >
> > "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
> > levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for
data
> > archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose
data..."
> >
> > In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
> > checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
> > "best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural
limitation.
>
> Not to denigrate Ken Rockwell (I'll save that for another time)
> but this is wrong. DVD-R and especially DVD+R are data formats,
> not movie formats, and have error correction built in. See:
>
> http://cdfreaks.com/article/113
!