# How much Bad Blood from ground combat ?

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Anonymous
August 10, 2005 12:24:21 AM

Some ppl recommend killing prisonier in pack of 10k

We know we get 20 bad blood point for killing 1 000 000 enemy colonist.

I would like to know how much for 10K, 50K, 100K, 200K, 500K
What are the key number ?

Any simple formula ?

A page on this would be good for the wiki, or a pdf Amaranthine style.

Here a quote from Tim

> If you kill one or two enemy ships you get 2 bad blood points, if you
> kill 4 to 10 enemy ships you get 12 bad blood points. If you kill more
> than 10 ships you get 20 bad blood points, which is the maximum you can
> get in a single turn from ship killing.
>
> If you kill 1 million enemy colonists on the ground in a single turn
> you will get 20 bad blood points for the turn, this is the max for
> colonist killing.
>
> If you kill 10 or more ships and 1 million colonists on the ground you
> will get 40 bad blood points for the turn.
>
> You max out with 200 points and loose 1 point per turn.
>
> Tim
>

Lord Lancelot
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 12:28:18 AM

I would also like to know the minimum number colonist you need to kill to
get +1 or +2 bad blood.

Lord Lancelot
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 4:05:45 PM

Lord Lancelot schrieb:

>>
>>If you kill 1 million enemy colonists on the ground in a single turn
>>you will get 20 bad blood points for the turn, this is the max for
>>colonist killing.

....
d = troopAcount(z) * (CDBL(raceA(z).combatTroop) / 100) * rAB(z) +
(troopAcount(z)) * (CDBL(raceA(z).forcedark) / 100)
d2 = colonistHome(k)
v = (d * rHGFactorK * RND)
d2=d2-v
colonistHome(k)=d2
CBAT.@cut2PTR[vP - 1] = CBAT.@cut2PTR[vP - 1] + v / 100
....

This implicates

(Raw BB = raw bad blood)

10000 Raw BB <-> 1,000,000 killed Colonists <-> 20 BB

But now

....
colonistHome(k) = colonistHome(k) - mechAcount(z,i) *
CDBL(mechA(z,i).aTroop)) * RND * rHGFactorK * .2 * rAB(z) * 500
....
vP = (baseA(z).pNum - 1) * 30 + baseA(k).pNum
CBAT.@cut2PTR[vP - 1] = CBAT.@cut2PTR[vP - 1] + mechAcount(z,i)

So a mech generates independent of how many colonists are killed 1/500
BB points

And an EE would do well if he kills small amounts of relased prisoners
with 10000 battle bots to get the max 20 BB from colonists each turn.
So once he gets an amount of prisoners he should prepare several baes
where he releases small amounts of prisoners which are then killed by
the 10000 battle bots which are being podded from base to base...

Then his LCs should work 85% of the time or in the mean 17 of 20 turns.

GFM GToeroe
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Anonymous
August 10, 2005 4:05:46 PM

In another post of yours you said 2001 battle bots is the next best thing
after 10 000 battle bots.

I still have a few question, because I don't understand the code, or formula

I understand killing with mech is easier for the EE, because of their free
type I mech.

1) Any other races with the same numbers of mech get the same result as the

2) Most other races mech cost a lot more, could you give an example how many
bad blood 100 mech would give ?

3) When not using mech, but troop to kill colonist, how many colonist do you
need to kill to get +2 , +5 , or +10 bad blood point

4) how much give 10 000 colonist killed only by troop ?

5) do you add the bad blood point troop get + bad blood point mech get for
killing colonist ?
or just the higher result ?

P.S.
If somebody could do a small reference table for bad blood.
how many bad blood point for % chance of working labor camp
and kill X colonist via troop give Y bad blood point
and X mech killing 1 colonist give Y bad blood point.

Thanks

Lord Lancelot

>
> And an EE would do well if he kills small amounts of relased prisoners
> with 10000 battle bots to get the max 20 BB from colonists each turn.
> So once he gets an amount of prisoners he should prepare several baes
> where he releases small amounts of prisoners which are then killed by
> the 10000 battle bots which are being podded from base to base...
>
> Then his LCs should work 85% of the time or in the mean 17 of 20 turns.
>
> GFM GToeroe
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 4:13:29 PM

Lord Lancelot schrieb:
> I would also like to know the minimum number colonist you need to kill to
> get +1 or +2 bad blood.
>
> Lord Lancelot
>
>
BBColRate = 20BB/1M Col=1/50,000 BB/Col

1 BB != N col * 1/50,000 BB/Col
-> N=50,000

As a mech produces 1/500 (in mode 3/4/5) one could also try to
hold the BB level at 200 with cheap mechs without killing
too much colonists but it needs more micromanagement. As you have to pod
arround the mechs.

GFM GToeroe
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 11:12:46 PM

Lord Lancelot schrieb:
> In another post of yours you said 2001 battle bots is the next best thing
> after 10 000 battle bots.
Well who cares about yesterday's words?
Seriously: I think there I hadn't the info from Tim that 1M killed
colonists generate 20 points BB.

>
> I understand killing with mech is easier for the EE, because of their free
> type I mech.
And the low price and the low power. So against Lizard colonists - IIRC
- after reaching the max of 200 BB the 1 point BB per turn to hold up
this level can be reached with a steady base.

> 1) Any other races with the same numbers of mech get the same result as the
> EE in your example ?
Yes - only the number of mechs but not their abilities count when doing
it in mode 3,4 or 5.

> 2) Most other races mech cost a lot more, could you give an example how many
> bad blood 100 mech would give ?
This is a test? Right?
The produced BB is proportional to the number of mechs. 10000 <-> 20
100 <-> 0.2

>
> 3) When not using mech, but troop to kill colonist, how many colonist do you
> need to kill to get +2 , +5 , or +10 bad blood point
Again this is a test? Right?
1M 20 BB
0.5M 10 BB
....

> 4) how much give 10 000 colonist killed only by troop ?
20/100

>
> 5) do you add the bad blood point troop get + bad blood point mech get for
> killing colonist ?
> or just the higher result ?
I think if 20 new points of BB are reach per turn then it stops this turn.

>
> P.S.
> If somebody could do a small reference table for bad blood.
> how many bad blood point for % chance of working labor camp
> and kill X colonist via troop give Y bad blood point
> and X mech killing 1 colonist give Y bad blood point.
I think you can yet do this on your own.

GFM GToeroe
Anonymous
August 10, 2005 11:12:47 PM

>>
>> 3) When not using mech, but troop to kill colonist, how many colonist do
>> you need to kill to get +2 , +5 , or +10 bad blood point
> Again this is a test? Right?
> 1M 20 BB
> 0.5M 10 BB

It just that killing 50k colonist (50 000 / 1 000 000) * 20
for only 1 bad blood point seem way too much. killing for so little reward.
(remember -1 bad blood per turn)
and 100k for 2 point and so on.

Some times there are range in Tim formula.

You need at least 1 000 000 prisoniers or more, and need to kill half before
building labor camp, labor mine.
Labor camp and Labor mine should all be build in the same turn, due to the
death rate of the camps to get max income.

> 2) Most other races mech cost a lot more, could you give an example how
> many bad blood 100 mech would give ?
This is a test? Right?
The produced BB is proportional to the number of mechs. 10000 <-> 20
100 <-> 0.2

500 Mech killing 1 enemy colonist = +1 bad blood point

And The only race with camp that have low cost mech is the Evil Empire.
Using mech to raise bad blood is only cost effective for the EE.

Lord Lancelot
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 7:36:51 AM

damn google, lost my original post so here goes another attempt that
I'll save before posting...

So if I am to understand this correctly,
As EE, I am killing 400,000 enemy crystal colonists in a base they set
up when I dropped them on an unoccupied planet.
Killing them Using 100 troops, 1000 crew, 50 bots and a few tanks.

Now if I follow this right, I am getting almost no bad blood per turn
that I do this right??.actually losing bad blood..-1/turn..
Even though 400,000 colonists are being slaughtered in the hunting
sports on our recreational game reserves...

So to get bad blood, I need to kill them using only troops and lots a
enemy colonists need to b killed or...
use 1000's of bots only and dont have to kill many enemy
colonists....is this assumption correct??

Also as a thought,
how is BB calculated for killing enemy ships?? BB/ hull tonnage??
on that note,
If I abandon a ship over a enemy base, is that ship automatically
captured next turn by that base??..

Cheers.
Emperor Leeroy.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 7:18:51 PM

if the local blood is greater than 100 then rOdds=0.15
if the local blood is greater than 50 then rOdds=0.35
if the local blood is greater than 10 then rOdds=0.45
if the local blood is greater than 5 then rOdds=0.55
otherwhise rOdds is 0.80

From what GFM GToeroe, told us...

">
> So if I am to understand this correctly,
> As EE, I am killing 400,000 enemy crystal colonists in a base they set
> up when I dropped them on an unoccupied planet.
> Killing them Using 100 troops, 1000 crew, 50 bots and a few tanks.

You will get 8 bad lood point, making your camp not working 55% of the time,
instead of 80% of the time.
but only for 3 turn, since -1 per turn.

But as the EE it's easy to attack with 2001 bots, or 10001 bots, just by
that way you will make up to 20 bad blood point per turn and you could only
kill 100 per turn instead of those 400K

> > So to get bad blood, I need to kill them using only troops and lots a
> enemy colonists need to b killed or...
> use 1000's of bots only and dont have to kill many enemy
> colonists....is this assumption correct??

You need to kill enemy colonist of the race you wish to put in your labor
camps.
You can use whatever you like to kill them Troop, crew, ground unit. (but
via ground combat)

vs just a few colonist.

> Also as a thought,
> how is BB calculated for killing enemy ships?? BB/ hull tonnage??

BAD BLOOD increase chance to make labor camp MAKE MONEY"
If you kill one or two enemy ships you get 2 bad blood points, if you
kill 4 to 10 enemy ships you get 12 bad blood points. If you kill more
than 10 ships you get 20 bad blood points, which is the maximum you can
get in a single turn from ship killing.

If you kill 1 million enemy colonists on the ground in a single turn
you will get 20 bad blood points for the turn, this is the max for
colonist killing.

If you kill 10 or more ships and 1 million colonists on the ground you
will get 40 bad blood points for the turn.

You max out with 200 points and loose 1 point per turn.

Tim

That is all we know about killing ships.

Lord Lancelot
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 9:50:55 PM

Just a quick re-cap on mechs vs BB,

Does the integer in the code go into decimal places for calculating BB,
ie.

If I use just 50 mechs to kill say ( 500mechs kill 1 col = 1 BB ~ 50
mechs kill 10 col = 1 BB??)
so kill 100 colonists = 10 BB generated???

Therefore any race can efficiently generate BB using mechs as 50 mechs
cost at most 1500mcr..
This is affordable and doable..YES??

Am I understanding this part correctly??

Cheers.
Leeroy.
(ps. playing the Dracs in 2 games now so this is a need to know thing I
guess.)
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 1:58:28 AM

What make mech a lot better for bas blood, the amount of colonist you kill
is not important, 1 would give same result as let say 40 000 colonist.

It' a lot harder to get BB using troop only, but cost almost nothing, vs the
huge cost of the Mech

Also from the little bit of the code I understand, and from GFM GToeroe
explanation:

Using 1001 mech = +2
Using 2001 mech = +6
Using 4001 mech = +12
Using 10001 mech = +20

Lord Lancelot

Sub Blood()
DIM i As Long
DIM k As Long
Dim v As Long

For i = 1 To 30
'PrintOut "*********** Cut Rating: Player:: " & Str\$(i) & "
*********************"
For k = 1 To 30
'Printout Str\$(k) & " // " & Str\$(CBAT.@cutPTR[(((i - 1) * 30)
+ k) - 1])
'Printout Str\$(k) & " ///** " & Str\$(CBAT.@cut2PTR[(((i - 1) *
30) + k) - 1])

v = 0
Select Case CBAT.@cutPTR[(((i - 1) * 30) + k) - 1]
Case 10000 To 20000
v = v + 2
Case 20001 To 40000
v = v + 6
Case 40001 To 100000
v = v + 12
Case 100001 To 2000000000
v = v + 20
End Select

Select Case CBAT.@cut2PTR[(((i - 1) * 30) + k) - 1]
Case 1000 To 2000
v = v + 2
Case 2001 To 4000
v = v + 6
Case 4001 To 10000
v = v + 12
Case 10001 To 2000000000
v = v + 20
End Select

v = v + CBAT.@bloodPTR[(((i - 1) * 30) + k) - 1]

v = v - 1

If v > 200 Then v = 200

If v < 0 Then v = 0

CBAT.@bloodPTR[(((i - 1) * 30) + k) - 1] = v

'Printout Str\$(k) & " ///BLOOD*** " & Str\$(CBAT.@bloodPTR[(((i
- 1) * 30) + k) - 1])

Next k
Next i

You get CUT points for damaging enemy ship hulls

You get CUT 2 points for killing enemy colonists.

Tim
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 10:03:45 AM

Again lost original post so here we post it again,

OK heres some personal experience under Host 193 as EE at Drews.

And my conclusion.......
is.

When wanting BB to b generated, u must either not use any mechs
in your ground assault...kinda like when you try to capture them in the
and kill over 100,000 of them. Gets you as above post say some BB.

or....BIG OR...you must use more then 1000 mechs.
..MUST USE MORE then 1000.
In your assault force or else it seem u will end up with no bad blood
generated
at all as it defers the calculation to mechs method if any exist in

I say this as from experience in last 4 turns in running game,
Have been killing 400,000 crystal colonists per turn, have 12 prison
bases.
Last turn 1 base produced, this turn none. 3 turns ago was none as
well???!!!
My force was, 950 mech 1, 5 mech 3, troops, and crew.
Yes was all in 1 pod...only 1000 mechs per pod. 1 pod assault force..
need some troops ,crew to run your base dont you...

So am tryin this 2001 mech assault idea now.
With 2 shuttles and 4 pods..1 pod for the 500 enemy colonists.

Cheers.
Emperor Leeroy.
ps..Yes dust off, but I dont want all my GA forces in 1 pod in 1 ship.
ps. Shame, I'm killing lots in the prison camps...
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 5:29:51 AM

I think, and say it again, that BAD BLOOD must be eliminated from game.
It is a very BAD SOLUTION. All this that you are writing here are only
words that going round and surround a problem which solution is just
If you want to use "allied prisioners", then your "ally" could give you
cheap hulls to destroy it, or POD some prisioners to a "Prisioners Kill
World"... then, where is the solution with BAD BLOOD???? ... only more
and more micromanagement (and why not to have a BAD BLOOD score????)...
I think that every game is to enjoy... if you are at war, your
prisioners work at Labor Camps, if you aren't at war, your prisioners
will disapear and apears at his own HW... easy, right?.

Join the ABBC (Anti Bad Blood Corporation)... Zaratrusta have spoken.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 8:30:16 PM

I´m with you on this. I appreciate the idea behind bad blood (making allies
exchanging colos for labor camps more difficult) but it simply isn´t
working. If anything, it makes it more difficult for the players, that
worked for their prisoners (i.e. got them the "honest" way).
As it is, there are a lot of Gentlemen agreements in lots of games setups,
i.e. no e-mailing until making contact, no preset alliances, etc, etc.
Why not another one along the line of "no prisoner exchange".

I honestly don´t belive there is a way to enforce the no prisoner exchange
within the game without ruining labor camps as a whole (or the entire game
because of increased micromanagement).
The reason this entire thing came up because of the unbalancing effect a
couple mio of prisoners prior to turn 20.
Now, as long as players drop, just play stupid or are simply inexperienced,
there is no way in hell to prevent this.
Every income source that is part of a "normal" economy, i.e. Cities, taxes,
show launges, pyramid launches, etc, can be fine tuned to be more or less
balanced (still somewhat varying according to the game setup).
But prisoners can´t. You either get them or you don´t. If, say, 100k
prisoners are supposed to give you some income, 5 mio will be a gamebreaker
(in early game) - period.

An example:
I am playing EE right now (X 3000 over at drewheads) and am going down the
slippery slope, i.e. running for my life (no way I can fight the bot
juggernaut). I have attacked a fed HW (deceased/dropped), but because some
of my assault ships met an untimely demise in the form of a couple of bot
nova mfs (again, Napoleon is proven to be right: "The only thing a general
can not make good of is time lost"), my ground forces where only about half
as strong as I wanted them, so instead of several mio prisoners, I got only
a few hundred k.
The feds are now deep inside bot territory that I can´t reach (there aren´t
any ships/bases left anyway), so how am I supposed to get some money from
them. I´d have to slaughter all of the prisoners to get a couple of points
of bad blood, but then there are no prisoners left to take advantage from
it.
Currently, I am sending small packages of prisoners to as many small outpost
as can get so I am getting at least a little bit of money while not killing
off too much of them by the hard work in the camps. But now the
micromanagement is killing me.

Oh well, enough of my ranting.

Ralph Hoenig, Germany

"Myflowers" <apunzi@ono.com> schrieb
>I think, and say it again, that BAD BLOOD must be eliminated from game.
> It is a very BAD SOLUTION. All this that you are writing here are only
> words that going round and surround a problem which solution is just
> If you want to use "allied prisioners", then your "ally" could give you
> cheap hulls to destroy it, or POD some prisioners to a "Prisioners Kill
> World"... then, where is the solution with BAD BLOOD???? ... only more
> and more micromanagement (and why not to have a BAD BLOOD score????)...
> I think that every game is to enjoy... if you are at war, your
> prisioners work at Labor Camps, if you aren't at war, your prisioners
> will disapear and apears at his own HW... easy, right?.
>
> Join the ABBC (Anti Bad Blood Corporation)... Zaratrusta have spoken.
>
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 10:12:36 PM

Howdy again,

Well I'm playing the EE and...the Dracs.

I really can appreciate the bad blood being introduced to the game,
just to slow down income colonist trading between players.
I can also follow the idea of it being so hard to generate so as to
keep the income down to a not unrealistic level.
This does reduce the prison income for most races down to a non useable
level.

As I too have managed to get millions of prisoners by turn 20, actually
earlier then that, its not hard if a new player
puts out a lot of colonists on undefended worlds in an effort to get a
troop training or food production base.

Leaving the EE and the Dracs to be maybe the only races to make use of
prisoners.

However I'd like to be able to see my bad blood per race maybe on the
prisoner stats screen showing ur prisoner populations.
This I feel will reduce the discontent involved with bad blood, and
make generating bad blood self explanetory.

Cheers.
Leeroy.
August 15, 2005 7:02:23 AM

LeeSMaz wrote:
> Leaving the EE and the Dracs to be maybe the only races to make use of
> prisoners.
>

I really like you mentioning the Dracs and EE in the same sentence and
claiming that they are 'maybe' the only races to be able to use
prisoners. As it is in contrast to
the Birds and Stormers,Sols (and to some extend Aczanny) both do need
prisoners.
But then the similarities of both do end there, the EE have really good
chances to usually get large amount of prisoners (aside from the
getting more money per Camp if they are producing money) and are better
able to keep the prisoners and bring them to safety. The Dracs do have
the worst chances to get real big amount of prisoners, especially if
the enemy is not a complete fool.
IE. In my only game a certain neighbour of mine would be out by now, if
the race I had chosen would not have been the Dracs, but
EE,Bird,Stormer or Sols (at least with the playing skill he showed so
far, against the EE and Stormers he would not have had a chance under
any circumstances).

And then maybe you are caring to explain why you think that both are
maybe the only races to be able to use prisoners, I will tell you the
errors in your reasoning afterwards. IMUO the Dracs have the worst
chances to get prisoners the EE have the best (then Stormer and Birds,
then Sols then Aczanny and last and also least the Dracs).

BTW The EE do get a large amount of Battle Bots cheaply offsetting the
difficulties in the beginning to get a very high amount of Troops and
HG, the Dracs only have their superb growth rate of 65 in comparison to
the pathetic growth of 128 (Birds) and 115 (Stormer)...
And Crew do also kill troops and have an effect in combat (ie. 500
troops against 29 k Crew will result in a win of the Crew, since their
will be no troops left in the surrendering phase and HG are not easily
killed in combat... and the combat strength of the Drac HG is awesome
for a slaver race (not taking the Aczanny into account)...)

about it that I care to say, if anyone wants to know my opinion he
would have to search the newsgroup.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 9:30:41 AM

I agree with Nameless here....

I also agree that BB has failed to do anything, really, to prevent
prisoner exchange.

****Rules for BB*****

if the local blood is greater than 100 then rOdds=0.15
if the local blood is greater than 50 then rOdds=0.35
if the local blood is greater than 10 then rOdds=0.45
if the local blood is greater than 5 then rOdds=0.55
otherwhise rOdds is 0.80

Using 1001 mech = +2
Using 2001 mech = +6
Using 4001 mech = +12
Using 10001 mech = +20

************************************

OK guys, if you want BB, just use 2001 mechs to kill the colonists off,
not too big a deal for anyone to get 2001 mechs, especially the EE
(with HYP and Dustoff).

Now camps are right back where they were (ok, within 5%) before BB.
Now just kill off a ship every round to keep the count even. (or maybe
kill some more colonists to get 6 rounds of buffer).

I don't see a real problem here (playability-wise) for the EE... except
it actually made exchange of prisoners better than before. Now I can
easily get an 85% work rate from my camps while working closely with
someone... so actually this change has backfired from original
intent... _that_ is, IMO, the problem with BB.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 9:59:19 AM

Actually, I think this is off:

Using 1001 mech = +2
Using 2001 mech = +6 (should be +4)
Using 4001 mech = +12 (should be +8)
Using 10001 mech = +20

I think it is +1 per 500 mechs... so use 3001 mech to in my example
above.

Anyway, just make a bunch of small bases with their colonists and them
just move around your mechs to kill them all.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 6:15:31 PM

I will drop bad blood from the game. . .
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 6:15:35 PM

I will drop bad blood from the game. . .
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 6:36:31 PM

cocomax wrote:
> I will drop bad blood from the game...

Sounds good to me, in which case I hope all hosts will deal with the
potential races-giving-each-other-colonists-to-put-in-labor-camps/mines
issue by simply banning such practices by gentlemen's agreements as
part of every game's rules.

As for the
potential-for-huge-windfalls-to-camp/mine-races-in-the-early-game
issue, I would still like to see some limit on the number of
camps/mines per base to deal with that. If there is no such limit, I
advise staying away from games with beginners in any kind of proximity
to labor/mine races.

-- Karnak Prime
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 10:30:26 PM