Prisoner balancing idea

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

The original problem with labor camps was that if you managed to get a
significant amount of prisoners early on, you because nearly
unstoppable. Yet at the same time, there should be a decent benefit
for capturing only a small amount of prisoners (like 100,000).

The bad blood scheme is a good first attempt to fix it, but I think
it's safe to say that most players are unhappy with it.

With that in mind, I've been brainstorming other solutions to the
problem:

1) This my favorite idea... have the camps produce something other than
money.

1) Make labor camp income less scalable somehow.

=====

Option #1 is based on the fact that money is such an unbalancing factor
in this game. Money can buy anything. Ships, weapons, equipment,
fighters, technology; you can even convert money into minerals and fuel
(factories + alchemy). Once you generate a ton of money, there's
nothing you can't do (well... if you have no crew to pilot your ships
then that's a problem, but that's rarely a limiting factor for somebody
with lots of prisoners).

But if you change labor camps to produce something less versalite then
they become less unbalancing, since the rest of your economy has to
catch up before you can reap the full benefits. If labor camps
produced weapons and equipment, but not money, then you would still
reap large benefits from having them - but you wouldn't be totally
unstoppable, since you still have to generate enough tax revenue to
purchase hulls to put the things on.

Weapons, ordnance, repair units, [more] supply units, base structures,
mechs, fighters... all of these things could be produced by labor camps
without being totally unbalanced.

=====

Option #2

The idea behind option #2 is to make capturing a huge number of
prisoners only slightly more beneficial (at least in the short run)
than capturing a small number of prisoners. There are several ways
this could be accomplished:

1) Tie the maximum labor camp income to the race's current population.
This is kind arbitrary... but it gets the job done.

2) Increase the initial investment required to build labor camps. This
forces players to ramp up their labor camps more slowly. And, it
provides juicier targets for outside forces to attack. I would say
that each labor camp should cost between 4 and 10 times its average
production, so that they take between 4 and 10 turns to pay for
themselves before you start to make a profit.

3) TrickyMath (tm). Make income proportional to sqrt( labor camps) or
something like that. Simple and effective, with the added bonus of
encouraging players to spread out more (which makes them more
vulnerable to counter-attack).

=====

Anyway, those were just a few ideas I've been meditating on. Any
thoughts?
23 answers Last reply
More about prisoner balancing idea
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Another idea: (remove bad blood, set camp/mine production to 65%
    and...) limit the number of camps per base to 500.

    In addition to cutting back the economics of camps/mines, this will
    limit the ability to make huge sums of MC from a windfall of prisoners
    early in the game, slow prisoner-based economies, make it harder for
    the camp/mine player to defend the camps/mines, and increase the
    happiness hit on the imprisoned race greatly (because the hit is per
    prisoner base), hopefully ruining the economics of prisoner trading
    among allied players.

    (And, you would have to put similar per-base limits on Lizard prisoner
    sales as well.)

    -- Karnak Prime
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Interesting ideas...

    Another option could be to just scale the prisoner income based upon
    turn of game.

    Turn 1-10 = 25% income
    11-20 = 50%
    21-30 = 75%
    31+ = 100%

    Maybe that would be simplest...
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Another idea: limit the number of camps that can be build per turn.

    This limits the money you get from camps at the beginning but will not hurt
    you in the endgame.

    Yust to give a though on this, too.

    Greetings
    Sebastian
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    In combination with other ideas that is my favorite approach. I would
    just slightly modify it:
    -) Remove BadBlood
    -) Reduce # of max LCs (500 sounds good to me)
    -) Make the LC income turn based, but on a slower scale. Maybe
    something like Min[100,(Turn * 2)]%? That would give you 100% at T50+
    and should mostly avoid players delaying LC builds until a higher
    income level is reached.
    -) Redcuce or completely remove the bad side effects of LCs. As I
    already said in the other tread about LCs, with less LCs being able to
    build on a planet, one needs to build them on economicaly important
    planets, too. If it kills your colos or destroys all your cash that
    doesn't work well together.

    What do we do with Liz if the BB gets removed? Do they also earn turn
    based, then?
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    #1 is another good approach and can even be combined with #2, the idea
    is to let the LCs produce contra! Contra can only be sold if you have
    enough colos, which is the combination with #2 and reduces the income,
    too. However, with the current crime problem when much owning contra,
    that is not feasible. If the crim/contra problem gets resolved, all the
    other points (removal of BB, less lCs / planet, ...) I said in reply to
    Daves posting need to be done, too.
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I really like this idea.

    Remove bad blood, scale the income base on the turn.
    Also if we put a max of 1000 camp per planet, you need 10 planets for 1 000
    000 prisoniers.

    also that 10 major happines hit vs and ally who trade...

    >
    > Another option could be to just scale the prisoner income based upon
    > turn of game.
    >
    > Turn 1-10 = 25% income
    > 11-20 = 50%
    > 21-30 = 75%
    > 31+ = 100%
    >
    > Maybe that would be simplest...
    >
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I think (Turn * 3) would be better. (I'd compromise to 2.5) :-)

    Why a slower scale? 100% at turn 33 should be good. All other race
    incomes should be fully functioning by then. I haven't played a game
    that made it much over turn 50 in quite some time.

    Also... why max the # of LC per planet? If not, then no need to remove
    the effects either. Besides, a smart player spreads his people anyway
    to reduce death rate. Let them have a choice... high death or micro
    management.


    Simplest for the Programmer...

    1) Remove BB.
    2) Scale income by game turn.
    3) Drink Beer.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Realistic?

    You'll fly at FTL... or HYP?

    Intelligent Robots?

    Rat men flying throughout the stars?
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Repeat step 3...
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I like this idea most !

    splitted

    "Sebastian" <Sebastian@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
    news:3mjpe0F16lnlcU1@news.dfncis.de...
    > Another idea: limit the number of camps that can be build per turn.
    >
    > This limits the money you get from camps at the beginning but will not
    > hurt you in the endgame.
    >
    > Yust to give a though on this, too.
    >
    > Greetings
    > Sebastian
    >
  11. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I would NOT make it dependant on Turn Base, because that is not realistic.

    Regulate the Number of LCs that can be build on a Planet in one Turn,
    thereby one can still use
    the Prisoners but must also build lots of ships and do a lot of
    MicroManagement.

    Maybe regulate the number of LCs per Planet.

    Kind regards, Jörn

    "Lord Lancelot" <lordlancelot@Nospamthankyou.com> wrote in message
    news:EwfNe.22660$kz6.1181340@news20.bellglobal.com...
    >I really like this idea.
    >
    > Remove bad blood, scale the income base on the turn.
    > Also if we put a max of 1000 camp per planet, you need 10 planets for 1
    > 000 000 prisoniers.
    >
    > also that 10 major happines hit vs and ally who trade...
    >
    >>
    >> Another option could be to just scale the prisoner income based upon
    >> turn of game.
    >>
    >> Turn 1-10 = 25% income
    >> 11-20 = 50%
    >> 21-30 = 75%
    >> 31+ = 100%
    >>
    >> Maybe that would be simplest...
    >>
    >
    >
  12. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Having labor camp income based on the turn number is out of the
    question.

    Having it based on something else or wierd math sounds interesting.

    The only reason bad blood is around is due to the trick that was used
    where one player handed over long numbers of colonists to their friend
    to feed his labor camps. If a way can be found to get rid of that
    little trick or if it is something that really does not matter, bad
    blood can be dropped.

    Tim
  13. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Having labor camp income based on the turn number is out of the
    question.

    Having it based on something else or wierd math sounds interesting.

    The only reason bad blood is around is due to the trick that was used
    where one player handed over long numbers of colonists to their friend
    to feed his labor camps. If a way can be found to get rid of that
    little trick or if it is something that really does not matter, bad
    blood can be dropped.

    Tim
  14. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I get your point, but regulation by turns is somewhat more far behind the
    dreams of even extraterrestrial lifeforms ;)


    <david_bandy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1124451189.294904.255440@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    > Realistic?
    >
    > You'll fly at FTL... or HYP?
    >
    > Intelligent Robots?
    >
    > Rat men flying throughout the stars?
    >
  15. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    They aren't "rat men" monkey boy.

    They are highly evolved rodents, who have nothing in common with a race of
    "men" so primitive the "men's" teeth don't even grow continuously from the
    roots.

    <sniff>
    I'm so hurt I may have to go out for a cheese sandwich to console myself.


    <david_bandy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1124451189.294904.255440@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    > Realistic?
    >
    > You'll fly at FTL... or HYP?
    >
    > Intelligent Robots?
    >
    > Rat men flying throughout the stars?
    >
  16. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Good to see old Cocomax doing some posting! Mayhaps we're in for a host
    upgrade too?
  17. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Simplest for the Programmer...


    1) Remove BB.
    2) Scale income by game turn.
    3) Drink Beer.


    Of these, #3 seems most important.

    =grin=
  18. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I don't like beer. . . RUM is much better!

    Tim
  19. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Hull RUM? you could put a device named MOJITO ;p
  20. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    I do not agree, happiness hit are very stong already, we do not have to
    increase it. ( I have been on the losing and winning side)

    Game 1: I have been dying of happiness hit from an enemy EE player wo
    took over 1 M of my colonist early in game.

    Game 2: Has the Rebel I killed a bird player just by having 10-20
    planets with 100K of his prisoner on each.
    He had no more $, cities did not produce, and he did ot have taxes
    income. It was a piece of cake to build a fleet to finish his HW, and
    the more I waited the more powerful I got, and he got weaker and
    weaker.

    Taking many prisoners, is very strong with any races, and you don't
    need any camp to do huge happiness hit, on 100k per planet for max
    result.

    I find this too powerful and easy to do.

    Lord Lancelot
  21. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Drink some RUM and please forgett about "Turn dependant restrictions" that
    in my opinion is just
    to much of a tweak.

    Restrictions due to "Only X LCs can be build per Turn" is fine in my Eyes,
    because it can be argumented within the game...

    Just my 2cent,
    splitted

    "Myflowers" <apunzi@ono.com> wrote in message
    news:1124611415.281792.211950@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    > Hull RUM? you could put a device named MOJITO ;p
    >
  22. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    To get rid of Colonist Trading :

    How about making the effect of large Numbers of Colonists in the Hands of
    another Player worse ?

    at the Moment, your Colonist just "Protest" and get somewhat unhappy, which
    is not a reason for anyone not to give his Colonists to another Player...

    maybe they could riot ...

    I know that would also a powerfull weapon for those who take prisoners...but
    everyone whould have something from takin Prisoners ...

    Just some cent,
    splitted


    "cocomax" <cocomax@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:1124485762.839664.272760@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    > Having labor camp income based on the turn number is out of the
    > question.
    >
    > Having it based on something else or wierd math sounds interesting.
    >
    > The only reason bad blood is around is due to the trick that was used
    > where one player handed over long numbers of colonists to their friend
    > to feed his labor camps. If a way can be found to get rid of that
    > little trick or if it is something that really does not matter, bad
    > blood can be dropped.
    >
    > Tim
    >
  23. Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

    Another proposition:

    Relaese Prisoners as soon as any data/contact is shared and Attack is set
    to off.
    (make it harder to play together whith an no official alliance)

    Scale slavery income by (victim race population)/(own population) or (victim
    race population - own population )/(own population).
    (honour the brave, punish the ones that yust imprison races whose players
    had left the game. Also Low grow races with camps like EE and Dracs are
    favoried, because of this remove EE bonus.)

    Introduce a grow rate malus for the victim race. Grow victim race malus=
    (1-min[((turn first imprison-current turn)*0,01);max growmalus])) *
    (population in freedom - poulation in slavery )/(population in freedom)

    The race that got into slavery will grow slower. Not starting at once but by
    time I´ll get significant. If a lot of your people are in slavery you´ll
    suffer more.

    You can compensate the grow malus by increasing what is similar to BB but
    toward
    the race that put your men in slavery.
    But I do not mean BB how it is now. BB should be very dependend on a factor
    of (race that put you in slayery population)/(own population). Meaning if
    you´re little and the enemy is big you have to kill few ships and colonists
    and vice versa.

    Yust a brainstorm. Please excuse the awful style I have not much time, atm.


    Greetings
    Sebastian


    > Having labor camp income based on the turn number is out of the
    > question.
    >
    > Having it based on something else or wierd math sounds interesting.
    >
    > The only reason bad blood is around is due to the trick that was used
    > where one player handed over long numbers of colonists to their friend
    > to feed his labor camps. If a way can be found to get rid of that
    > little trick or if it is something that really does not matter, bad
    > blood can be dropped.
    >
    > Tim
    >
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