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For Tim: Remove the Dracs from the game or make them compe..

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August 21, 2005 10:02:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

It is known for a long time that the Dracs are the weakest race.
None of the host changes done in the meantime takes that into account.
Nothing has been done to have them not be hit by any of these host
changes,
ie. farm requirement, chance to sweep cloak barb mines, Bad Blood,
gathering surface stuff limited by the Colonists on base, HG production
(food requirement)... (to name a few which came to my mind).

The Dracs are an oddity with their really low growth rate, all other
low growth races do either have a superb mobility like the Cents
(hyping and ultra fast ships), UEA (Jump Point Generator, and also hyp
and fast normal warp ships and a little bit increased growth from
turning prisoners into their troops) or a not really a low growth race
like the bots and the borg or are a hyp race which can boost their
growth with cloning (the EE). The Dracs have on top of their ultra fast
growth rate a ship mobility which rivals that of the Bots (and in
contrast to the bots they have to attack). And then we would also have
to take into account the mediocre ship list, which is average in
combat, and the lack of any other special abilities. And then they do
not have alchemy or another way to get new metals (or fuel) once their
planets are empty (aside from the possibilities that do have all races
- taking new planets or trading for it, but in that case the question
has to be with what?). And neither have they in contrast to all other
low growth races any form of hyp protection! Currently that is only a
race for players who do not want to win games!

If you decide to make them competeable (at long last, so far they never
were),
you can either change the race totally (the way the race has to be
played) or
you can try while making them competeable to preserve the way they have
to be played. In the later case I am volunteering to help (otherwise I
won't).

If you do not decide to do that you should remove them from the game,
you could still keep them around as a NPC race, but nothing more.
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 10:44:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I think the Dracs are a cool race, unfortunately when they were created
there were
way to many critics trying to put the race down..ie read the race
manual and u'll c all those complaining the race was to powerful and
boring etc...(like wow did they say that about the Solorians,
Privateer, EE etc...what a bunch of old goats. Did they actually try
and play the race..I dont think so..All critics should b ignored unless
can provide evidence and proof of their so called intelligent
comments.)

Dont get rid of the race, they just need a boost of some sort,

Either faster ships, maybe boosting the suggested 'typo' over their
tech 10 ship with
size 200 large weapon mounts up to 2000?? Give it some attack or
evasive bonus maybe??

And or increasing that awlful growth rate.
Could help them get troops to capture prisoners with.

>From the beginning of the game I've struggled to find a way to defend
the Dracs from the Lizards for example, with their starting lizard
cruiser, I cant stop it if it was to wonder into Drac space, though I
think the drac fighters can stop it then. Have to use high tech hulls
and weapons to stop it. Hate for a anti fighter equiped star destroyer
to turn up in the first 10 turns or so.

Only method for Dracs to last a few turns is to expand with lots of
government centres and research tech real quick. This is a short lived
tactic.

Cheers.
Lee.
ps. But dont get rid of races, ok I'm normally against strengthening
races but U know
to stop people messaging remove it then ok improve it a little.
OR, reduce every other races strengths...:) 
August 22, 2005 12:45:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Draconians (as a race) strike me as a cross between Lizard and some
evil scum bag human race...privateers?

Maybe some crossbreed between noble lizard warriors and scum bag
privateers would yield an interesting breed such as Draconians. Some
cloaking, some combat/ground assault, and toss in some contra/marketing
thefts...erh skills...and a few fast ships of course.

Monk (tongue firmly in cheek)
Related resources
August 22, 2005 12:47:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Draconians (as a race) strike me as a cross between Lizard and some
evil scum bag human race...privateers?

Maybe some crossbreed between noble lizard warriors and scum bag
privateers would yield an interesting breed such as Draconians. Some
cloaking, some combat/ground assault, and toss in some contra/marketing
thefts...erh skills...and a few fast ships of course.

Monk (tongue firmly in cheek)
August 22, 2005 1:34:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Ack! Sorry for the double entry...I was googled. -sigh-
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 5:57:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I think too that Dracs are cool... and I'm trying since a few weeks to
know why Dracs are not upgraded like other races. I've wroten Tim
about... without answering, and I'v posted some things here... without
answering. There are a site about changes for Dracs, I've have wroten
to the guy who make thos page... without answering. But I don't like
this changes, they make Dracs a normal Race and Dracs are special,
right?

They need only some changes like growth, ships devices and weapponery,
crew and guest, speed (maybe Gravitonic Accelerator) and, of course, no
redundance hulls.
August 22, 2005 8:04:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Is the author still around? If not it will be difficult to get any
change! Just see the Peeps. :-(
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 8:29:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Here my idea so far for some of their ships...

Ship list change: Increase all their ship Max hull speed to 120
and give them 1-2 with 190 speed (keep the Draco class star base with 0
speed)

Orville Class Scout (increase speed to 120)
Add : Long range mine detector, Gravitonic accelerator (so max speed
240)

DR-14 Security Vessel (speed 120)
Add: SDI Anti-Probe, Security Device, Transport Inhibitor, Superweapon
Jammer

Eridanus Class Frigate speed 150
Raise crew to 1000
raise PD to 4

Scimitar Class Destroyer speed 150 (swarm ship)
Raise crew to 500
add: Hive Mind

Balka Class Vanguard
Add: Spy scanner

Draco Class Starbase
Add Gravity well generator, Mobile Ord Factory, Mobile Repair Plant,
Security Device

Ad-22 Marauder
Speed 190
increase guestsize to 1000

Oberth Class assault ship ( keep Speed 120)
decrease warp signature to 5
Add: Dust off, Minefield Destabilizer
Remove Barbatic mine dropper and mine sweep array

Fang Class Destroyer speed 190
increase crew to 800
increase attack bonus to 100

Kalinin Class Carrier
10 fighter bays of 100 size (instead of 40)

Titus Class Dreadnought speed 150
increase crew to 3000
increase weapon size limit to 2000
attack bonus 25
add: Transport Inhibitor, Target Enhancer, Gravity Sensors
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 8:54:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Mizar Class Cruiser
reduce warp signature from 60 to 50
Add: Cloaking Device
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 8:58:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Race author is gone...

I tried to get changes early on (in fact TIM made some, like the
increased mc from Gov Centers), but I doubt anything more is coming.

I also don't like these new changes suggested on that site.
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:48:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I like the ship mods,
combine with a growth rate or troop improvement
and would make Dracs much rrr last longer - b stronger.

They would definitely b in a position then, to capture prisoners
and be able to keep them, bringing them back to their camps.

Cheers.
Lee.
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 10:31:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Sparrow wrote:
> Is the author still around? If not it will be difficult to get any
> change! Just see the Peeps. :-(
>
The Dracs creator was kidnapped by aliens and fed to space goats. He was
one of the stars of V3 and Tim has resisted all efforts to bring them to
date due to his loyalty to the author. I admire Tim for this unswerving
loyalty, but agree that the Dracs need work.

I would:

1. fix the 200 kt mounts to 2000.
2. speed up some of their hulls.
3. change some of the minelayers from Barb to Grav and/or Laser mines.
4. increase their growth or income, i know the GC change helped.
5. give them a break in RPs, they really need to have a lot of stuff to
keep going.
6. improve some fighters or lower the price.

al
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 1:02:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

"Sparrow" wrote
> Is the author still around? If not it will be difficult to get any
> change! Just see the Peeps. :-(
>

Last I heard. The Dracs are now administered by Hilmar Benne.

You can find his website at
http://www.hbenne.de/
his email address is on that site

You can find most race page links here - but I haven't updated it in a
while.... sorry
http://www.vgap4-info.org.uk/VGAP4-Int/english/racelink...

Cheers
--
Olly

VGAP4 International
http://www.vgap4-info.org.uk/VGAP4-Int/english
Crayon World
http://www.twoflower.fsnet.co.uk/crayonworld/main/main....
etc...
(could I just add at this point that the proper English word to use in the
title is "competative" not "competeable" but I can fully understand the
language difficulty! English is a truly bastard language!! 8)))) I hope
this helps!)
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 8:53:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

These are most of my proposals:

Draconians and natives:

Native special effects, e.g. double mining rate by reptilians, won't
work.
Draconians don't live together with natives like other races. If
natives join their bases they will get caged up in zoos immediatly.
These zoos are a great amusements for their people. They are visiting
the zoos and pay entrance for that. Also Draconians use their captured
natives as slaves and medical experiments.[For coding more easy: Dracos
earn 4x as much taxes from natives (entrance from the colos), get a
happyness boost +10 per turn but 20% +500 of the natives will die every
turn.]


other special attributs:

because of their brutality the deathrate of prisoners in laborcamps/
-mines are 2x but there will be no riots.
You need between 10 and 200 HGs for this: every 10 Draco HGs will
capture [x = 130 - (Law /2)] colos/base from every enemy and allied
scanned bases in range of 50 LY. The affected bases will get a
happyness -10 per turn. The captured colos will get prisoners.

Draco bases with at least 1.000 colos become tectonically unstable
(every turn: +2 HD stress per 1.000 colos upt o max +10 HD Stress with
5.000 colos or more) and generate lots of minerals, but inevitably
disintegrate. Including their homeworld.
Dracos never can use any Terraformer Devices and Buildings. Even
Alchemy, DTMS Fuel Converter and Scalar Wave Damper never will work for
them.

Dracs earn money from fighting. For every kt (hullmass - 50kt) of
destroyed ship = 1 MC (The money will appear on the Drac ship nearest
to the combat) For every 10 lifeforms they killed in combat = 1 GC

Energy Mines have double range, half charge time but double ord usage
and double powerdrain [stats]

only 10% of all Cyborg "killed" in ground combat are reclaimed as
colonists

Holy Order of Axia Prime: will get activated when you have more than
5.000 HGs. The Holy Order of Aixa Prime is a special secret community.
Sometimes they will manufacture a deadly virus and release it on the
base with the most colonists killing 20% of the population there (even
on allied bases). Borg, Robots, Crystals, and Solarians are immune.


Solar Gamma Ray: (works only if ship is in Draconian hands, does NOT
work through baseshield, not cumulative)
Destroys organic armor and disables all Exotic Techs, including your
own, out to a range of 200 ly. Setting a base as "Kill Target" causes a
30 point drop in enemy colonist happiness and kills 30% of them out to
a range of 100 ly. It also kills 50% of most natives. (It will not hurt
Chupanoids or Siliconoids) The device will not hurt the Crystals.
As a side effect of the Solar Gama Ray (even if the SGR is switched
off), when a ship or fighterwing gets in combat with a Krait the enemy
ship will get a -30 Attack and -20 Evasive penalty. This effect is not
cumulative too.

Repair Dock: allows the ship to use its own repair units repairing
other ships up to the size of the Construction Bay Size. It can repair
one ship per turn (capture target) completely. [when the controldamage
reaches 75% the device will fail to work]

Nanoshield: When the Draconian had first contact with the Robots their
whole food reserves were destroyed by Nanits. Their scientists have
searched after a shield for their homeworld but weren't succesful.
Instead of a baseshield they detected by accident a possibility for a
shipshield. This shipshield now is able to protect the whole cargo from
these damn nanits. It burns 5kt of fuel every turn and needs at least
the shipshield "GS-SX 1000" and 1 High Guard. [when the controldamage
reaches 75% or the shielddamage 1% the device will fail to work]

Fighter Typ3: can sweep novamines. You need at least [minefield radius
x minefield energy /8] fighters sweeping 1 field. (For example: 38 typ3
fighters for 1 minefield with radius 30 ly and energy 10)

Mobile Ground Unit Production 1-3: builds Ground Units Typ 1-3, needs
an empty Pod Bay, in this Pod Bay will be the next turn an assault pod
with the produced units in.


Ship Attributs:

many minesweepers
most ships are speed 100, no hyperjumping ships. They NEVER can use
hyperjumping ships.
only 5 ships with speed above 100 and only 3 ships with speed above
120, one of these is a Tech 2 scouthunter.
1 ship with Fighter Factory 1-3
3 ships with Dry Dock 1.000 or above
carrier which can hold up to 4.000 fighters
1 nearly complete cloaked ship which can build Jumpgates
1 complete cloaked assault ship

for more details have look at

www#
hbenne#
de
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 9:36:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I've seen this before and IMHO this just screws the race up. But hey,
that's just what I think. At least you put work into it... alot of
work, and that itself is worthy of note.

I just don't understand why everyone want to make so many changes to
make the race work... a couple of small things would do. Adding
boarding lasers, grav accelerators, cloakers, etc, etc... it's just too
much. I believe that any changes TIM makes will have to keep the same
flavor as the creator intended. Though I do think some of your ideas
are very cool, I just would save them for another race, not to impose
them on another person's idea.

my 2 cents about a race I keep playing, trying to make them work.
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 11:38:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

If you want to boost the Dracs...

although a combat / economy boost, or increasing their hull speed, or
adding cloaking devices is a quick fix, I suggest the following, as more
"in character".

My impression of the Dracs, is as an implacable "immovable object" of
immense inertia. Not fast, but once they start moving they are difficult
to stop. And they have powers which are mysterious, ancient and
mind-warping. (They strike fear into all who behold them.)

Therefore how about: the racial power to suborn and control others.

It would work like this. A Drac ship enters orbit above your base and
forms a base of its own. If the population of the Drac base exceeds that
of your own, yours becomes prisoners and your base becomes theirs (the
bases merge). No ground combat, just an instant capture because of the
Dracs' terrible mind-controlling psionic powers.

(This would ironically make their nippy little Orville scouts one of
their most feared ships. No one would be able to create nice little one
man bases any more.)

If your ships meet a Drac ship, and your (crew + guest) numbers are
lower than the Dracs', your ship surrenders. So the only way to fight
them would be by using big ships, or strapping pods of colonists onto
your ships.

When Dracs get inside minefields, there is a 25% chance that the
minefields will change sides and convert to Drac minefields.
--
Paul Honigmann
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 12:16:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Drac change ideas which keep Race Intact:

1) With the reduced cost of their fighters under last change, they seem
to be on the verge of a fighter race now. Also, this race was designed
before any fighter races existed so the author only had the Fed, Borg,
Stormer, etc to base it's bay capacities on. Let's reoutfit some of
their fighter carriers to reflect this:

DR-14: Upgrade it's bays to hold 50 fighters each. Remove pod
bays.
Hydra: 5 bays of 100.
Westfallen: This is just a fighter version of the Titus. Give it
5 bays of 100.
Lower LW mounts to 60kt.
Kalinin: 10 Bays of 100.

2) Some interesting Ideas to help boost their survivability:

Titus: Can repair all damage to ship at end of turn if enough
repair onboard.
Rostov AA ship: Let's let it live up to it's name...
Give it the Exotic Tech 'Anti-Fighter
Computer' as a hull ability.

3) They also need some way to help them economically, but not too much.
That free 400mc each GC is a big deal early on. Maybe something like
the following:

Clone Lab on the Organic Ship... ok, it has a low guest capacity,
but it's cheap and you can get alot of them going, or maybe up it's
capacity a little too.



They should NOT get defense from HYP races (grav mines, well gen, etc).
They should NOT lose their redundant ships (let's face it, there are
ships on every race list you don't build).


Think mines, mines, and more mines as the Dracs, also the same with
sweepers. Their fighters whip most other race's fighters in a
wing-on-wing cost-per-fighter basis. You also need to be good at
ground assault. With this and change Ideas 1 & 2, I think they would
compete well, while keeping with the designers intent, though be
dificult to win with.
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 1:58:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

So this is the real reason why the Dracs are doomed.......

The New Drac admin has designs of his own which in essence reflect a
totally different race just
imposed onto an existing race in need of a few upgrades.

Whilst the ideas are great, they should be in another race, a new race
not the Dracs.
And certainly not all those special abilities in the one race.

This is the one reason why nothing has been done to fix the Dracs.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tone down your Drac modifications to something
normal so that we
get an improvement on this race.

No dreaming in the clouds super ability ideas please..we all know they
will not be implemented and you
just doom the Dracs to the garbage heap.

Just propose plain basic normal improvements to their race stats and
ships, you know nothing that will require
major re-programming on Tim's part.

Or else it will never get a chance.
The more way-out the modifications, the more debate and negativity will
occur, the more unlikely of
ever getting any changes implemented.

I like the Dracs, I'd like 2 c them improved in line with other races.

Just think, how long has the debate on improving the Dracs been going
for..um quite a while it seems.
Do it simple, keep it honest, it will get implemented.

Cheers.
Lee,.
August 24, 2005 8:22:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

LeeSMaz wrote:
> So this is the real reason why the Dracs are doomed.......

No it is not. The reason is that the race was designed before the
bugfix history even started and Ryo Nakamura disappeared before the
race was even released (a few years later).
August 24, 2005 8:43:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

david_bandy@hotmail.com wrote:
> Drac change ideas which keep Race Intact:
>...
> They should NOT get defense from HYP races (grav mines, well gen, etc).

With their low growth they do need some hyp protection! The question is
if they should be able to also use that offensively or just as a
protection of their HW and the few other big bases they might be
getting in the long run. If the latter
an introduction of a special race building could do the job.

> They should NOT lose their redundant ships (let's face it, there are
> ships on every race list you don't build).

Here I agree.

>
> Think mines, mines, and more mines as the Dracs, also the same with
> sweepers. Their fighters whip most other race's fighters in a
> wing-on-wing cost-per-fighter basis.

No, they don't.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 10:26:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Which ones are better?

I admit I haven't run SIM's against all races' fighters, but against
the races I've run, the Drac type I easily beat them.
August 24, 2005 11:29:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

david_bandy@hotmail.com wrote:
> Which ones are better?
>
> I admit I haven't run SIM's against all races' fighters, but against
> the races I've run, the Drac type I easily beat them.

Birds, Stormer, Xtals, Bots, EE,Aczanny,Cents,Sols,Rebels,COM...

Not sure about: RCS (t1), Peeps (t3? or t1 - the Peep t1 has a range
advantage but a slight cost disadvantage...), UA,Scavs,Lizards,UEA and
Privs.

I am only seeing them winning easily against Feds, Borg.

And I am using mainly the T1 of the Dracs (eventhough for small wings
mixed wings are probably better, also for the Dracs with their decent
travel ranges).

And then Drac fighters are really inefficient against ships.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 12:01:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

david_bandy@hotmail.com wrote:

> I just don't understand why everyone want to make so many changes to
> make the race work... a couple of small things would do. Adding
> boarding lasers, grav accelerators, cloakers, etc, etc... it's just too
> much. I believe that any changes TIM makes will have to keep the same
> flavor as the creator intended. Though I do think some of your ideas
> are very cool, I just would save them for another race, not to impose
> them on another person's idea.
>
> my 2 cents about a race I keep playing, trying to make them work.
>

I agree with the idea that the least changes is better. Increase the
AD-22 guest size, bring a few ships up to 100/110/120 speed. Change any
one minelayer over T5 to a laser and one over T6 to a grav mine. reduce
fighter prices by perhaps 30%, add about 10% to their growth rate and
change ships LW mounts from 200 to 2000 and I think you have got it
about right. I have done well with the Dracs and like the flavor. OF
course they could be more "draconian", but that could be tough to quantify.

Just my .02 Euros,
alevans
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 4:20:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

I was using 10 wings of 10 Drac fighter... the idea was to spread them
out so their beams were all over the board, causing enemy fighters to
fly into their small beam threat range more often.

It seemed like the enemy was having trouble hurting them, even though
they got free shots because the Drac beam range is so low, they just
weren't killing the fighters. I figured it was their high armor.

This research all started because I was wondering if they could make up
for this lower late game income through better fighters (since they get
extra 395 per GC). Seems my Sims may be a little off the mark. I'll
re-run them sometime and see what comes of it.

Anyway, It does remain that their fighters are inept against ships and
their shiplist isn't so great against ships, so they still have
problems.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 9:37:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Yep this all testing of ships and fighters and debating is exactly why
I said the Dracs are doomed.

The current Drac admin should bite his tongue and release a solid ,
acceptable, non dreaming
upgrade to the Drac race over all, with no correspondence or advice
entered into or accepted by anyone else.

'This is where he has to stop dreaming and be reasonable.'

Tim can then do the mod nice and simple and we have another race to
play with.

NONE of you seem capable of agreeing with each other, U all just have
to add your little bit or adjustment to something.

Trust Tim to make the final solution with the appropriate race admin.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 8:43:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

But he was a self-appointed current administration.

Which is why he should accept advice & ideas.
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 7:42:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

david_bandy@hotmail.com wrote:
> But he was a self-appointed current administration.
>
> Which is why he should accept advice & ideas.

ok guys....i never thought there would be such a big discussion over
these changes. I asked a few months ago here and not many people
answered constructive. Only a few destructive answers were written so i
didn't ask here someone again.

Than i only discussed this topic with some "planets-friends" and tried
to make a new interesting race with some special features.

So i'll start another trial here!

I think these things we have to discuss:

1st)
a) Do you want the Dracs only improved a bit so you will be able
winning a game with them or
b) do you want a race with a few new features which give them a new
character?

2nd)
In my opinion the biggest disadvantages of this race are:
- low growth
- to low economy
- only slow ships
- no special ship advantages
- to less crewmen
- to less guests
- a bit underpowered fighters

3rd)
IMHO they are a bit boring because they don't have any special features
but the Solar Gamma Ray. I'd like to see them more different to other
races...

These points WE have to discuss about and i promise you i'll change the
dracs like most of you want to!!
August 26, 2005 12:14:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Well I am seeing two possibilities:
A) Trying to make the race compeatable while trying to keep the
character of the Dracs, as it was intended by the race designer.
Which would mean to not change the growth rate and the general theme of
the Drac ships (ie. not boosting the ships speed - or better not
changing one bit about the Drac ships at all...) etc.
But this, without any special abilities (not described by Nakamura) to
be added, would mean to boost the start-up a whole lot, so that
regardless of neighbours (in not scripted games), they (the Dracs) are
able to either destroye them or to have them flee. Problem here would
be, that the maps alone do have a big influence: map size,planet
distribution, starting positions...
Ie. The boost of the start-up on a spaced Echo map has to be different
from a any boost of the snowflake game or a boost to the start-up on a
epsilon galaxy (with big cirlce positions), otherwise it would be
either unfair to the Dracs or the rest.
Of course we could add, as in the Echo Cluster scenario of Nakamura
(the race creator), some sort of entry point for additional Drac forces
to come (from a different galaxy) through it this way (generation of
additional troops/HGs (on ships), ships, wings etc.).(But that would
already be some sort of special ability)
This can reduce the unbalancing thing described above - as ships would
first have to move to the frontier (or wherever they are needed),
unless the Dracs did build JG's, if we now let the entry point only be
destroyed if the HW (of the Dracs) is destroyed (and possibly make the
Drac HW immune to WCMs of any kind and do not let the planet be
destroyed by high stress), this would also add additional vulnerability
to the Drac HW and the entry point - but will produce additional
problems in special scenarios...
If we would do that, the economic,growth (troops and Crew number
problem), fighter problem and other problems can be eleminated -
without any changing anything about the race (except for adding an
entry point from a different galaxy).
The only problems would be to balance the additional forces depending
on the turn number(in any case they would need to also depend on the
start-up settings) and the resource points (but the rp problem is then
really a minor problem which can be fixed easily).

B) Changing the race, while trying to keep some parts of the character
of the Dracs intact. And this is what you, H.Benne are trying to do -
and looks better then what I have seen at the beginning of last year
from your suggestions.
Mayor characteristics which should in my opinion not be changed (too
much) are the military touch of the ships (and the military ships being
slow) and the low growth rate. But this is not an easy thing to do.
And while I do not like all of your proposed changes, they are
attending to big parts of the Drac problems.
If done right this can make the Dracs competeable in both normal games
and scenarios.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 10:04:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

Howdy All,

As the who shall remain Nameless stated, The 'B' option might be best.
'A' too dependent on map size and changing conditions.
But feel the ships do need boosting somewhat, and or Drac Crew rating
needs improving as in your proposals.
If they are to remain slow then defintitely need more bite. Like the LW
size to 2000 as in your proposals.
Any marauder improvements will be most useful.
Growth did need impoving but hey might not get away with boosting
everything.

Not too in favour with the extra race abilities, I read in old posts
they met with a lot of critisim....:( 
Maybe remove area effect special abilities, and that planet stability
problem u introduced....not so good me thinks....
In the attempt to balance them with the area effect abilties u weakened
them somewhat,
Making natives get killed, other races do reduce natives but get growth
gains, happiness gain not really worth it.
Or in the above make it a switch for the special building, on or off??
Actually think this was your intention anyway so sorry,
Though I'd b leaving it off.

The Krait, whilst way good for tech 5, aint really buildable for quite
a while and then when u can build them usefully, so can the enemy build
higher tech ships, so I dont c it a problem except in shareware games.
Nemisis torp give u optional powers
for the ship, its removal can weaken them somewhat. Changing to tech 10
aint so bad.

The drac starbase being made non-towable limits their ability to get
metals, this I didnt like.
If you intend to force lots of them to b built then need more devices
on them and weapons etc to make it worth while building,
this mod may make this ship redundant too. Its not like it is a strong
ship.

Didnt like the captured ship limitations, this really weakened the
race, even the Solorians can use what they capture.

The prison mods, double death rate, but no riots, sounds great,
especially at the moment with the near useless bad blood
effecting the prisoners to non producing. They get double production
already because of prison camps and mines.

Cant recall all the changes but was impressed by what you had come up
with,just doubt the special abilities will get
approved.

Cheers.
Lee.
ps.To sum it up, as the mods sit at the moment they all have to be
approved as you have intended, as to remove
special race abilties etc you will have to start removing weaknesses
that you setup to balance them.
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 5:55:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

ok, fist of all thanks for your good and long answers.

As i understand you both you'd like to see the Dracs a bit improved in
stats and better ships but not too much in new different special race
abilities, correct?!
I agree with you. This would make it much more easy for Tim and we
don't get too much trouble with balancing.

I will have to think about it and write a new message here when i
finished.

If someone wants to send me some proposals my eMail is

<vgaplanets#at#hbenne#DE>

CU later
H.Benne
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 10:44:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

LeeSMaz wrote:
> Howdy All,
>
> As the who shall remain Nameless stated, The 'B' option might be best.
> 'A' too dependent on map size and changing conditions.
> But feel the ships do need boosting somewhat, and or Drac Crew rating
> needs improving as in your proposals.
> If they are to remain slow then defintitely need more bite. Like the LW
> size to 2000 as in your proposals.
> Any marauder improvements will be most useful.

I think 5000 guests should be enough. The point why it's not ot high i
think is because the Dracs won't train enough HGs fillings this ship
complete with HGs. So they will have to capture ships with troops which
is much more difficult.

> Growth did need impoving but hey might not get away with boosting
> everything.
>

85 is still not really much, isn't it?

> Not too in favour with the extra race abilities, I read in old posts
> they met with a lot of critisim....:( 
> Maybe remove area effect special abilities, and that planet stability
> problem u introduced....not so good me thinks....
> In the attempt to balance them with the area effect abilties u weakened
> them somewhat,

Yes, i know. Thats why now i removed the planet thing. But the
capturing colos and Holy Order of Axia Prime i really like, so i'd like
to realize this.

> Making natives get killed, other races do reduce natives but get growth
> gains, happiness gain not really worth it.

Hmm...but you earn 4x taxes also. My idea was: earning lots of money in
short time and than you have to look for new ressources...don't you
think this is a good feature?

> Or in the above make it a switch for the special building, on or off??
> Actually think this was your intention anyway so sorry,
> Though I'd b leaving it off.
>
> The Krait, whilst way good for tech 5, aint really buildable for quite
> a while and then when u can build them usefully, so can the enemy build
> higher tech ships, so I dont c it a problem except in shareware games.
> Nemisis torp give u optional powers
> for the ship, its removal can weaken them somewhat. Changing to tech 10
> aint so bad.

What means "aint"? I cannot translate this. What i wanted for the Krait
was a not typical Warship but a ship for special orders. That's why i
changed the Solar Gamma Ray that much. What do you say to these
changes?

> The drac starbase being made non-towable limits their ability to get
> metals, this I didnt like.
> If you intend to force lots of them to b built then need more devices
> on them and weapons etc to make it worth while building,
> this mod may make this ship redundant too. Its not like it is a strong
> ship.
>

Hm, okay, after i removed the plaet exploding thing i don't need this
flying homeworld any more. I'll try to find another good job for it. Do
you really think making it not towable (it was only towable by the
Krait or differen alien ships) making the base less useful? Which
devices would make it more useful without overpowering it?

> Didnt like the captured ship limitations, this really weakened the
> race, even the Solorians can use what they capture.

Sorry, i cannot follow? Why should the dracs cannot use alien ships???
August 29, 2005 10:45:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

hbenne wrote:
> ok, fist of all thanks for your good and long answers.
>
> As i understand you both you'd like to see the Dracs a bit improved in
> stats and better ships but not too much in new different special race
> abilities, correct?!

Well I would like to see growth rate not changed too much, the other
stats are not such a big problem, but currently the Dracs are about low
growth and slow ships. And some additional race abilities which are
along the current Drac character are also not bad.

Which could include:
- cheaper parts (at least on some tech lvls)
- increased speed with slow engines (on native drac hulls)
- increased exp awarding for Drac ships (and awarding exp for killing
fighters)
- increased initial skill of Drac ships
- decreased costs of JGs,
- boosting the effectiveness of the Solar Gamma Ray
- if growth is not changed , increased protection for the Drac HW,
- additional starting stuff (additional starting troops, additional
starting
parts etc.)
- in non-scripted games, starting of with a Pod Launcher, Gov Center
and max
farms
- lowered costs of some ETs for Dracs
- ghips and amphs only producing stuff that Dracs can really use.
- some starting ghips and amphibs (in non-scripted games)
- tweaking some of the higher tech ships so that they are really useful
(adding
some attack and evasive boni raising the hull mounts of 200)
- different calculation of resource points
....

> I agree with you. This would make it much more easy for Tim and we
> don't get too much trouble with balancing.
>

Well a big question is to what changes Tim might agree.

> I will have to think about it and write a new message here when i
> finished.
>
> If someone wants to send me some proposals my eMail is
>
> <vgaplanets#at#hbenne#DE>
>
> CU later
> H.Benne
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 11:47:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.vgaplanets4 (More info?)

With the Drac mods , somewhere I thought I read that they couldn't
use hypedrives, even on captured ships??

I could b wrong or misunderstood.

Personally, I'd like to be able to use any hype ships I capture or
trade for.
Makes the captured ship very valuable to the Dracs as their normal
ships r slow.
But if u feel this balances some other race power then OK I guess.
Though in the game Pisces of 8 on drew's, the game script gave me
an EE shuttle to hype around with to speed exploration up.

Cheers.
Lee.
ps. Luv all the above change suggestions,.
!