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Film vs. digital zoom on P&S

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Anonymous
February 17, 2005 10:36:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I would like to know if 3x zoom is the same on digital and film P&S
cameras.
What I mean is if I take a photo of something 100 feet away with a
digital camera that has 3x optical, and from the same spot I use
a 3x zoom on a film camera, is the zoom the same even if on
the digital camera the max is 58mm but on the film it's 130mm?

I am more concerned with a powerful zoom than a digital vs. film debate
or # of MPs, so what is a better value:
film:
CANON Sure Shot 150u Premier Camera Kit 38-150mm (4x) Zoom Lens - $120
CANON Sure Shot Z180u 4.7x Zoom (38-180mm) Lens - $140
KONICA MINOLTA Freedom Zoom 160c Camera with Date Function 37.5 - 160mm
Optical Zoom - $120

digital:
Canon powershot A75 3x 5.4-16.2mm - $200
""""""""""""""" s1 10x 5.8-58mm - $400
HP M305 3x 6-18mm - $150

More about : film digital zoom

Anonymous
February 17, 2005 1:43:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Mr.Bolshoy Huy wrote:

> I would like to know if 3x zoom is the same on digital and film P&S
> cameras.
> What I mean is if I take a photo of something 100 feet away with a
> digital camera that has 3x optical, and from the same spot I use
> a 3x zoom on a film camera, is the zoom the same even if on
> the digital camera the max is 58mm but on the film it's 130mm?

Unlike telescopes and binoculars, the 'X' in zoom doesn't describe
the magnification of the lens. In other words, a 3X zoom lens won't
necessarily make things look 3X closer

The zoom of a camera lens is calculated by dividing the maximum
focal length by the minimum focal length. Zoom describes the
range between the two focal lengths. It shows how wide and
narrow the field of view can be adjusted.

If a lens has a max of 115mm and a min of 38mm, then the zoom is:
115mm divided by 38mm = 3X

If a lens has a max of 30mm and a min of 10mm then the zoom is
30mm divided by 10mm = 3X

If a lens has a max of 300mm and a min of 100 mm then the zoom is:
300mm divided by 100mm = 3X

These lenses have drastically different magnifying power, but the
*zoom* is identical. Using the zoom factor alone to determine
how well a lens can magnify is pretty well useless.

Zoom is a verb used actually to describe the apparent motion you
see when you look through the viewfinder and vary the focal length.

If you increase the focal length while looking though the lens,
the subject appears to 'zoom' towards you. If you decrease
the focal length, the subject 'zooms' away. The movie industry
uses this often.. They call it zooming in and zooming out. Before
they had zoom lenses, they had to run the camera towards and away
from the subject using a wheeled trolly.

Fixed lenses have NO zoom. The Canon EF 1200mm lens is a powerful
lens when it comes to magnification, but since it has only one
focal length, you can't cause the apparent motion that changing
the focal length will cause.

The maximum focal length is 1200mm and so is the minimum.

1200 divided by 1200 = 1X

All fixed lenses have a zoom of 1X

Calculating magnification requires a bit more work.

It's generally accepted that a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera
approximates the field of view of the human eye. In other
words the lens has 1X magnification.

If you want 2X magnification then you need a 200mm lens
on your 35mm camera.

The 1200mm lens I referred to earlier has a magnification
of 1200 / 50 = 24X. But remember the zoom is only 1X.
Zoom and magnification are two different things.

To compare a 35mm zoom with a digital zoom, you have to
convert the film size to the sensor size. Most digicams
tell you the 35mm equivalent, so that is a good basis
of comparision.

For magnification you need to find the longest focal
length (35mm film equivalent) and divide by 50.






>
> I am more concerned with a powerful zoom than a digital vs. film debate
> or # of MPs, so what is a better value:
> film:
> CANON Sure Shot 150u Premier Camera Kit 38-150mm (4x) Zoom Lens - $120
> CANON Sure Shot Z180u 4.7x Zoom (38-180mm) Lens - $140
> KONICA MINOLTA Freedom Zoom 160c Camera with Date Function 37.5 - 160mm
> Optical Zoom - $120
>
> digital:
> Canon powershot A75 3x 5.4-16.2mm - $200
> """"""""""""""" s1 10x 5.8-58mm - $400
> HP M305 3x 6-18mm - $150
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 1:52:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jim Townsend wrote:


> If you want 2X magnification then you need a 200mm lens
> on your 35mm camera.

Er.. 100mm gives you 2X magnification not 200mm

Gotta proof read a bit better :-)
Related resources
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 3:17:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mr.Bolshoy Huy" <bolshoyhuy@hotmail.com> writes:

> I would like to know if 3x zoom is the same on digital and film P&S
> cameras.

It means the same thing.

> What I mean is if I take a photo of something 100 feet away with a
> digital camera that has 3x optical, and from the same spot I use
> a 3x zoom on a film camera, is the zoom the same even if on
> the digital camera the max is 58mm but on the film it's 130mm?

The "3x" relates to the ratio of the wide end of the zoom to the long
end of the zoom -- things are 3 times bigger when using the long end
than when using the wide end.

Two "3x" zooms can be very different; it's NOT an absolute statement
about the lens, it's only a relative statement.

A 30-90mm zoom is a 3x, and a 100-300mm zoom is also a 3x.

In practice, nearly all the film and digital P&S cameras with a 3x
zoom that I've seen have the wide end pretty close to the angle of
view you'd get with a 35mm lens on a full-frame 35mm camera.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:D d-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/&gt;
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/&gt;
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/&gt;
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/&gt;
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 8:13:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Mr.Bolshoy Huy wrote:
> I would like to know if 3x zoom is the same on digital and film P&S
> cameras.
> What I mean is if I take a photo of something 100 feet away with a
> digital camera that has 3x optical, and from the same spot I use
> a 3x zoom on a film camera, is the zoom the same even if on
> the digital camera the max is 58mm but on the film it's 130mm?
>
Yes, but it may not be what you think. That 3X means 3 times closer.
The question is three times closer than what. In the case of a zoom lens it
means the subject will appear three times closer at one end of the zoom than
the other, or if you like three times further away than the other. It does
not tell you anything about how close it really will look.

Most people think it is like a pair of binoculars that may be identified
as 7X or 10X. In that case the 7X will make the subject appear to be 7
times closer. That 3X does not tell you a thing about how it will appear to
the camera.

35 mm film cameras have a 1X (that is the picture will look much like it
did to you ) at about 47 mm. So a 50X150 zoom will be able to take a photo
from about normal to three times closer. Most lenses however are likely to
be something like 35mm to 105mm so they can make something appear further
away than normal (very helpful for indoor groups) or about 2 times closer.

With digital, it gets more complex. There is no one size film for
digitals so what it normal for one digital may be telephoto or wide angle
for another. The accepted method of getting around this is the "multiplier"
effect. So if you have that 35-105 mm lens on a digital with a 1.6
multiplier you will have about the same effect as that 50X150mm zoom on a
film camera.

So to answer your questions about all those cameras you are going to
need to know their multiplier numbers.


--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 9:13:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jim,

I've noticed the following header on all of your recent postings:

"Note: The author of this message requested that it not be
archived. This message will be removed from Groups in 6
days (Feb 24, 8:43 am)."

Are you doing that on purpose? Why?

The posting that you made above contains useful information
that other people might like to find in searching Usenet (though
you may have meant to say "100mm" instead of "200mm"
above.)

Why do you cause of all your postings to disappear? It's
not as if they contain anything negative about you or
anyone else. Wouldn't you like the effort you put into them
to continue to be useful?

Just curious.

Alan
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 9:16:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jim Townsend wrote:
> Jim Townsend wrote:
>
>
> > If you want 2X magnification then you need a 200mm lens
> > on your 35mm camera.
>
> Er.. 100mm gives you 2X magnification not 200mm
>
> Gotta proof read a bit better :-)

And I gotta read more before I respond to something.
I mentioned this in my reply to your last post before
I saw that you had already fixed it. :-(

Alan
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 12:11:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Alan Meyer wrote:

> Jim,
>
> I've noticed the following header on all of your recent postings:
>
> "Note: The author of this message requested that it not be
> archived. This message will be removed from Groups in 6
> days (Feb 24, 8:43 am)."
>
> Are you doing that on purpose? Why?

It's not in the header I'm sending, Google is putting it there.

I have "X-no-archive: yes" in my header and when Google sees
it, it won't archive the message.. If you're just seeing the
message you quoted above is probably because Google has just
started adding it.

> Why do you cause of all your postings to disappear? It's
> not as if they contain anything negative about you or
> anyone else. Wouldn't you like the effort you put into them
> to continue to be useful?

I guess it's a privacy thing.. I use my real name and don't
like the fact that everything I say will be archived forever.
(Although it doesn't stop my text appearing as quoted text :-)
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 2:26:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jim Townsend wrote:
> Alan Meyer wrote:
>
>
>>Jim,
>>
>>I've noticed the following header on all of your recent postings:
>>
>> "Note: The author of this message requested that it not be
>> archived. This message will be removed from Groups in 6
>> days (Feb 24, 8:43 am)."
>>
>>Are you doing that on purpose? Why?
>
>
> It's not in the header I'm sending, Google is putting it there.
>
> I have "X-no-archive: yes" in my header and when Google sees
> it, it won't archive the message.. If you're just seeing the
> message you quoted above is probably because Google has just
> started adding it.
>
>
>>Why do you cause of all your postings to disappear? It's
>>not as if they contain anything negative about you or
>>anyone else. Wouldn't you like the effort you put into them
>>to continue to be useful?
>
>
> I guess it's a privacy thing.. I use my real name and don't
> like the fact that everything I say will be archived forever.
> (Although it doesn't stop my text appearing as quoted text :-)
>
>
Jim,
You might consider removing the x-no-archive: yes from your
messages. I also have always used my real name on usenet, and in 10
years of doing this, I haven't had a single problem with it. Your
messages seem to contain information of considerable use. Please allow
them to continue to do good longer.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 5:09:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:43:16 -0600, Jim Townsend <not@real.address>
wrote:

>Mr.Bolshoy Huy wrote:
>
>> I would like to know if 3x zoom is the same on digital and film P&S
>> cameras.
>> What I mean is if I take a photo of something 100 feet away with a
>> digital camera that has 3x optical, and from the same spot I use
>> a 3x zoom on a film camera, is the zoom the same even if on
>> the digital camera the max is 58mm but on the film it's 130mm?
>
>Unlike telescopes and binoculars, the 'X' in zoom doesn't describe
>the magnification of the lens. In other words, a 3X zoom lens won't
>necessarily make things look 3X closer
>
>The zoom of a camera lens is calculated by dividing the maximum
>focal length by the minimum focal length. Zoom describes the
>range between the two focal lengths. It shows how wide and
>narrow the field of view can be adjusted.
>
>If a lens has a max of 115mm and a min of 38mm, then the zoom is:
> 115mm divided by 38mm = 3X
>
>If a lens has a max of 30mm and a min of 10mm then the zoom is
> 30mm divided by 10mm = 3X
>
>If a lens has a max of 300mm and a min of 100 mm then the zoom is:
> 300mm divided by 100mm = 3X
>
>These lenses have drastically different magnifying power, but the
>*zoom* is identical. Using the zoom factor alone to determine
>how well a lens can magnify is pretty well useless.
>
>Zoom is a verb used actually to describe the apparent motion you
>see when you look through the viewfinder and vary the focal length.
>
>If you increase the focal length while looking though the lens,
>the subject appears to 'zoom' towards you. If you decrease
>the focal length, the subject 'zooms' away. The movie industry
>uses this often.. They call it zooming in and zooming out. Before
>they had zoom lenses, they had to run the camera towards and away
>from the subject using a wheeled trolly.
>
>Fixed lenses have NO zoom. The Canon EF 1200mm lens is a powerful
>lens when it comes to magnification, but since it has only one
>focal length, you can't cause the apparent motion that changing
>the focal length will cause.
>
>The maximum focal length is 1200mm and so is the minimum.
>
> 1200 divided by 1200 = 1X
>
>All fixed lenses have a zoom of 1X
>
>Calculating magnification requires a bit more work.
>
>It's generally accepted that a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera
>approximates the field of view of the human eye. In other
>words the lens has 1X magnification.
>
>If you want 2X magnification then you need a 200mm lens
>on your 35mm camera.
>
>The 1200mm lens I referred to earlier has a magnification
>of 1200 / 50 = 24X. But remember the zoom is only 1X.
>Zoom and magnification are two different things.
>
>To compare a 35mm zoom with a digital zoom, you have to
>convert the film size to the sensor size. Most digicams
>tell you the 35mm equivalent, so that is a good basis
>of comparision.
>
>For magnification you need to find the longest focal
>length (35mm film equivalent) and divide by 50.
>

Best description I've read yet. Kudos!
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 2:43:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <1108654567.179274.311540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Mr.Bolshoy Huy" <bolshoyhuy@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I would like to know if 3x zoom is the same on digital and film P&S
> cameras.
> What I mean is if I take a photo of something 100 feet away with a
> digital camera that has 3x optical, and from the same spot I use
> a 3x zoom on a film camera, is the zoom the same even if on
> the digital camera the max is 58mm but on the film it's 130mm?
>
> I am more concerned with a powerful zoom than a digital vs. film debate
> or # of MPs, so what is a better value:
> film:
> CANON Sure Shot 150u Premier Camera Kit 38-150mm (4x) Zoom Lens - $120
> CANON Sure Shot Z180u 4.7x Zoom (38-180mm) Lens - $140
> KONICA MINOLTA Freedom Zoom 160c Camera with Date Function 37.5 - 160mm
> Optical Zoom - $120
>
> digital:
> Canon powershot A75 3x 5.4-16.2mm - $200
> """"""""""""""" s1 10x 5.8-58mm - $400
> HP M305 3x 6-18mm - $150

Let's assume the 35mm film camera lens with a 50mm focal length is 1x
magnification. Anything less than this focal length is regarded as a
wider angle of view - a negative magnification. So a zoom lens say 70
-210 would be regarded as a 3x zoom (70x3) but as the minimum focal
length is 70 (about 1.5x the standard) it could also be termed a
1.5x-4.1x zoom. However this is not really informative is it?
The Canon SureShot is a 38-150 (38x4=152) but is a wide angle to
telephoto lens and can only bring a subject 3x closer (50mm standard x3)

Instead of concentrating on magnification factor think about the focal
length - this is much more relevant to magnification.

Digital cameras magnify the focal length by 1.6x. If you had an film SLR
lens say 200mm this would give a 4x magnification, however if you put it
on a digital SLR the focal length would apparently increase to 320mm
(200x1.6) giving a 6.4x magnification.

It's hard to explain this simply. But I hope this has shed a bit more
light on the subject.

If you need a powerful zoom, take a look at the Pansonic Lumix FZ20.
This has a '12x' zoom - Equivalent to 38-432mm for 35mm. Maximum
magnification would be 8.6x as the zoom starts from a wider angle.
The Lumix also has an image stabilser which helps at higher focal
lengths.
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 3:10:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jim Townsend wrote:

> I guess it's a privacy thing.. I use my real name and don't
> like the fact that everything I say will be archived forever.
> (Although it doesn't stop my text appearing as quoted text :-)

Jim,

I agree with Ron Hunter. I use my real name too and always
have. I've never had any kind of problem with it.

And besides, our old Usenet postings (of which you still
have lots from before you started suppressing them) may be
all that remains of us when we're gone. Deleting them
seems a shame.

Alan
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 11:04:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"And besides, our old Usenet postings (of which you still
have lots from before you started suppressing them) may be
all that remains of us when we're gone. Deleting them
seems a shame.


Alan

--except for photos by us and of us; which if our grandkids' kids
decide
to throw out will make us really disappear and the nothing of us will
remain.
!