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Help concerning 3D and GPU

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February 11, 2011 5:34:18 AM

First time poster here. I will be building my first PC, always wanted to just haven't had the extra cash before. Anyways, money is not an object so it doesn't need to come into play in this build. Anyways, I want to play stereoscopic 3D games on my 50" Panasonic GT25. So here are my questions if anyone has any knowledge it would be super helpful.

First off I have decided i will run a i5 2500k (yes i know they were recently recalled)
All games will be in 1920x1080 on the 50" in 3D if able. not all games will be on this TV, nor 3D, I have a few other monitors I will be using otherwise. This is mainly about the horsepower needed for a 50" screen.

1.) I know Nvidia and ATI both support 3D TV's, does anyone know if the 3D is 1080P? Or is it stuck at 720p?

2.) is it even possible to run 120FPS at 1920x1080 on a 50" monitor with anyone less than a dual GPU setup?

3.) I don't think 60FPS for 3D per eye is necessary? anyone know?

I'm looking at the 560 ti, GTX 570, ATI 6950/6970 and the GTX 580 I would really really like to run max details on all games in 3D with AA and AF. What's the better option, running one gtx 580 or running a dual setup with the other cards? I'm just really confused because you can read benchmarks but it doesn't help me out. I have no clue what these cards are truthfully capable of. I really would rather not spend $1000 on a dual GTX580 if that's the only option, because that's pretty ludicrous.



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a c 125 U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 6:30:29 AM

1) 3D will run at your monitors res, so in your case 1920 x 1080.

2) you'll need to check that your T.V is 120Hz (or more) capable, this is a requirement of 3D.

3) Its nesseccary for a smooth gaming experience.

you'll need a ridiculous amount of GPU horsepower for Metro 2033 maxed out in 3D @ 1080P, not even sure if 2 x GTX580's would be enough.
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a b U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 7:44:13 AM

120 fps can certainly be attained with less than a two card setup.... in older games.

For most modern, and all new games you will need more than one card to get anywhere near 120 fps. I know some people claim that 30-40 fps is the highest that the human eye can detect, but I swear to you when I am running a game at 120 fps there is no smoother feeling for my eyes to behold, and I can tell the difference.

In 3D, unfortunately 60 fps is the cap. Of course it is because that is half of the maximum refresh rate of the monitor. Unfortunately for some (including myself) 60 fps is not a 100% smooth gaming experience, and frankly most games won't run at a constant 60 with all the bells and whistles turned up anyways, when running in 3D.

For you, running at 1080, including your desire to use 3D and have all the settings cranked. There are only a couple of reasonable options. Of course you will want to go Nvidia, as their 3D setup is easier and probably better quality.

I would say go GTX 560ti SLI as your minimum option, GTX 570 SLI as your most realistic price/performance option, and of course GTX 580 SLI if you are feeling a bit naughty. ( I am actually about to purchase 2X GTX 580 3GB cards for Nvidia Surround/3D Phsyx setup).

If you go with GTX 560 SLI, I suggest getting some with aftermarket coolers, and 2GB of Vram if you can find it, as long as they don't charge much extra for it.

Good luck!
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a c 130 U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 7:50:05 AM

You dont need 120 FPS you need the TV/Monitor to be able to refresh at 120Hz is all. You may already know this but some of the posts had me wondering so i just thought i would post it to be sure its understood.

Mactronix :) 
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a b U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 7:53:49 AM

mactronix said:
You dont need 120 FPS you need the TV/Monitor to be able to refresh at 120Hz is all. You may already know this but some of the posts had me wondering so i just thought i would post it to be sure its understood.

Mactronix :) 


Haha, no doubt.

When anyone loads up Metro in 3D they figure that one out real quick (like I did)

You'll be strolling around in 3D at about 14 fps with your g card fans at about 90%...

That game just craves the extra GPU power, and cutting that power in half (effectively) shows real quick.
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a c 125 U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 10:56:45 AM

my 2 overclocked GTX570's gets about 90-140FPS in metro 2033 @ 1920 x 1080, all maxed except AAA is on (not 4xMSAA) and ADOF is off. If I was to max it out completely then I expect my FPS would be more like 60-100FPS, So lets say 3D halfs your FPS you'd be getting about 30-50FPS... Not smooth IMO

Thats the worst case senario, Metro is the new Crysis in terms of how demanding it is.
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a b U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 11:54:32 AM

Rustyy117 said:
my 2 overclocked GTX570's gets about 90-140FPS in metro 2033 @ 1920 x 1080, all maxed except AAA is on (not 4xMSAA) and ADOF is off. If I was to max it out completely then I expect my FPS would be more like 60-100FPS, So lets say 3D halfs your FPS you'd be getting about 30-50FPS... Not smooth IMO

Thats the worst case senario, Metro is the new Crysis in terms of how demanding it is.


Well tbh, the game stays rather tame during 90% of the game. It's outside and places in the game where they use epic lighting/volumetric effects that bring systems to a crawl.

You probably could run Metro maxxed with a single GTX 460 and get decent frames...until you step outside, then you're talking about 4 fps slideshow.

Metro is a unique game in the sense that, you can play for hours without a hiccup, then get to a part that forces you to go down an entire graphics level to get playable frames.

A game like Crysis on the other hand, the fps is rather constant, constantly low that is ; )
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a c 125 U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 3:26:51 PM

I tried metro maxed out with a HD5850 @ 1000Core/1200Mem and it was pretty dire, during that part where you on the cart shooting the monsters it was averaging around 20FPS, on the more demanding parts it was down to about 14FPS... lol
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February 11, 2011 8:58:18 PM

awesome! Thanks guys for all the replies. I haven't quite decided what to do just yet. But it sounds like at least a dual 570 is needed. Lol the price of 2 PS3's for 2 graphics cards, totally insane. A dual 570 though would keep me at the top of bad assery for at least a few years ya?

here's also a random question if i buy 2 and decide later to do a tri SLI do games even run on that? I'm not sure how they're coded or how the whole SLI architecture works. My assumption is the developers have to code it a certain way to take advantage of it?
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a c 125 U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 9:12:45 PM

2 x GTX570's will do well for awhile yet, I can't see consoles changing any time soon so most of the new PC games will be console ports.. should be sweet for 2 years (rough guess)

You can go TRi SLI if you wanted, You'd have to get a motherboard that supports it and a PSU thats up to the job, 2 cards in SLI or CF generally scale well these days (roughly 70-90% performance increase, dependaing on the cards, games, settings and system config)
adding a third card generally doesn't give you such a large boost, Check some GTX570 Tri SLI reviews...
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Best solution

a c 226 U Graphics card
February 11, 2011 9:41:45 PM

Your computer doesn't know how big your TV is, all it sees is resolution.

You doing the 3D "glasses" ?

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=656&type=expert&pi...
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/889/7/

Metro 2033 will probably give ya the biggest test until the new games of XMas 2011.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-570-sli-revie...

Here's what twin cards will do for ya:

580 SLI (3 way) - 91
570 SLI (3 way) - 76
580 SLI - 65
570 SLI - 54
560 SLI - 46
6870 XFire - 44
6850 Xfire - 40

Here's a twin 570 build (of course SB stuff not available right now):

Case - $140 - Antec DF-85 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Case Fans - $15 - Antec Red 120 mm http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
PSU - $110 - Antec CP-850 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
MoBo - $270 - ASUS P8P67 WS Revolution http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
CPU - $330 - Intel Core i5-2600K http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
RAM - $90 - (3 x 2GB) Mushkin CAS 6 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
GFX - $350 - Asus GTX 570 Factory Overclocked http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
GFX - $350 - Same
HD - $55 - Spinpoint F3 1TB 7200 rpm http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
SSD - $200 - OCZ Vertex 2 2.5" 120GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
DVD Writer - $80 - ASUS BR Model BC-08B1LT http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
OS - $140 - Win 7-64 Pro OEM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Total = $2,130

Add nVidia Glasses

3D Vision $220 NVidia Starcraft Edition http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


Overclocking ?

Option 1 - $97
Cooler - $62 - Prolimatech Megahalems http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
TIM - $5 - Shin Etsu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
CPU Fan - $11 - Scythe SY1225SL12LM-P http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10026/fan-639/Scythe_...
CPU Fan - $11 - Same
Fan Cable - $8 - Akasa PWM AK-CB002 http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10350/cab-183/Akasa_P...

Option 2 - $70
$70 Antec Kuhler 620 http://store.antec.com/Product/cooling-cpu_cooler/kuhle...

Option 3 - $45
Cooler - $40 - Scythe SCMG 2100 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
TIM - $5 - Shin Etsu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

If ya think ya wanna go to a 3rd 570 within next 10 months or so....I'd up the PSU to the Antec HCP-1200 or Corsair AX-1200.

Like twin 580's, the Antec CP-850 still holds, for 3 of em, the Antec HCP-1200 or Corsair AX-1200.

Wanna look ata different case, my 2nd pick would be the HAF-X

The 6970 is an option but as was said above the 3D thing is really as impressive. Setting that aside, a single 570 competes well with a single 6970. Things spread a little when paired off with SLI's 570's getting 873 frames to the 6970's 825 summing up Guru3D's games. With 3 cards, that's SLI territory, you really don't wanna do 3 way X-fire.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-cross...

Quote:
The one recommendation we always gave you guys is to keep it simple at 2 GPUs maximum, as after 2 GPUs in a CrossfireX setup you quickly run into weird anomalies that can be irritating......So over the years Multi-GPU support has improved quite a bit, AMD still isn't up-to snuff at the level of NVIDIA though, multi-GPU supports still literally and directly remains the Achilles heel of ATI's Catalyst drivers.


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February 12, 2011 12:02:59 AM

^ Sweet build. 1 critique get a 2x4gb RAM kit not a 3x2gb. Sandy Bridge runs dual channel so kits with either 2 or 4 sticks work best.
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a b U Graphics card
February 12, 2011 2:16:27 AM

Unless your TV has a dual link DVI port you wont be running 1080p at more that 24hz, and 720p at 60hz. That is the limitation of HDMI 1.4a.
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February 12, 2011 4:49:32 AM

wow awesome! thanks for the reply and doing all the work. I'd change a few small things the 2500k is $230 not $330. I have windows 7 already 32 and 64 so that's awesome. Outside of that what's the reason for a SSD and a HDD?

Thanks for the ram tip though I'll do that.

@ benski, can you clarify your statement some more? Wouldn't 24hz be unplayable in 3D? so 720p is the only resolution? If that's the case is SLI even worth it?
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a b U Graphics card
February 12, 2011 5:47:57 AM

If youre stuck at 720 ( and I think he's correct about that) Then forget about SLI, just get the most powerful single card, or one close to it.
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a b U Graphics card
February 12, 2011 5:59:51 AM

I wouldn't say it's not worth it but it's not neccesary. I have used 3d vision on crysis with a single overclocked 465 and with a 460 both at 1680x1050, and 465s in SLI with everything on high but shadows on low (3d vision tells you to turn shadows to low they dont go to the right depth otherwise), and I'm in the low 40s for the most part with the single cards, and in the mid to high 50s with SLI, it's playable with either. Games like bioshock I can get close to 60 fps maxed out with 3d on with a single card. 720p you should have no problem with a single card. 24hz is not recomended for gaming.

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a c 214 U Graphics card
February 12, 2011 6:45:08 AM

With all this money being spent of GPU's maybe you should think of upgrading to a i7 just to get the most horsepower out of this setup.
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a b U Graphics card
February 12, 2011 8:09:11 AM

Well, so long as he OC's the i5 he shouldn't be missing much performance from an i7.
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a c 214 U Graphics card
February 12, 2011 11:18:06 AM

Is he planning on O.C.ing?
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February 12, 2011 5:29:30 PM

yeah I plan on overclocking the I5. From what I read the difference between the 2500k and I7 is minimal at best and doesn't make up the price difference. I believe the difference is just hyperthreading isn't it? Anyways, I have some friends and family that have done overclocking and said they would show me how.

But to be clear the 24hz is not recommended for gaming so 720p will get me the necessary 60 hz I need. So 720p isn't real demanding than right? I could technically run most games on high with effects on a single 570 in 720p? I'm not sure what the most taxing thing on a GPU is. Btw thanks everyone I appreciate all the help it's really helpful.
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February 13, 2011 5:52:41 AM

stupid question. On the cases does it have to be a full tower? Or will the ATX mid's work as well? I'm not sure how large the cards and all that are so I don't know what will or won't fit.
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a b U Graphics card
February 13, 2011 6:15:32 AM

Most mids will work fine, but I prefer full towers, if you have the space, definately go full tower.
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February 13, 2011 6:45:39 AM

ok cool thanks. One more question, I see in your sig you have 12GB ram. What's the least i should get, 6GB? Also relevant to memory it runs from 1066-2500mhz, what should be the least I would wanna use there? I also know the timing has to do with something, not sure what, what should I look for there?

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a c 214 U Graphics card
February 13, 2011 1:01:38 PM

Right around 6G or 8G is the sweet spot for RAM.Almost any Mid Tower case will support big GPU cards.Only get a Full Tower if your planning on running multiple GPU's or lots of HDD's.
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February 13, 2011 3:15:03 PM

oh ok I better get the full tower to be safe if I run 2 GPU's than. Awesome thanks. Any idea on the timing? or just get the highest mhz memory I can for the money?
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a c 214 U Graphics card
February 13, 2011 3:32:02 PM

By multiple i mean like 3 or more GPU's.But it is always best to get a Full Tower anyway even if your not going to use all it's space.I bought the HAF 922 because it's just as wide,if not wider, as a Full Tower but it's height makes it a Mid tower.Great for those high end aftermarket coolers.

Getting the RAM depends on what mobo you have or getting.What are you getting?
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a b U Graphics card
February 13, 2011 4:46:19 PM

I think the standard these days is like DDR3 1600, and 6GB is a good place to start.
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a c 214 U Graphics card
February 13, 2011 4:58:24 PM

Make sure that when you get a mobo that the RAM is stock 1600.Not O.C.If it's an O.C. 1600 then you will have to enter the timings manually if you buy 1600 ram.
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February 13, 2011 10:30:29 PM

Oh ok thanks i'll just get the full to be safe. Besides more space equals more air for cooling anyways and than it's slightly more future proof. I haven't decided yet on the mobo because the Sandy bridge processors were pulled and so were the motherboards apparently, at least off Newegg they were. I'll probably get an Asus, i was hoping to get the mobo/cpu 2500k combo. I know newegg has one because I've seen it but they've since pulled it so i'm not entirely sure.

i've looked on Asus's website and it's just kind of weird. The p67 sabertooth says

"* Due to CPU behavior, DDR3 1800 MHz memory module will run at DDR3 1600 MHz frequency as default. "

the p67 WS revolution says "* Due to CPU behavior, DDR3 2200/2000/1800 MHz memory module will run at DDR3 2133/1866/1600 MHz frequency as default.
4 x DIMM, Max. 32 GB, DDR3 1866(O.C.)/2133(O.C.)*/1600/1333/1066 Non-ECC,Un-buffered Memory"

So it looks like from my understanding that the sabertooth only downgrades the 1800mhz and the ws revolution downgrades all the speeds? I dunno.

unless you guys can think of a better brand of mobo to get? My cousin said he prefers the Asus mobo's but i have no experience with them.
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a c 214 U Graphics card
February 14, 2011 12:33:26 AM

Any brand is good.But don't get something thats too cheap.Personally i like MSI and Asus.They are mostly about O.C.ing so you know they make reliable stuff.My first mobo was a Gigabyte that i'm currently using now.I've had no problems with it and the BIOS menu is really simple.

All up to you on what to choose but make sure you get the correct RAM type and frequency.And if your planning on running SLI or Crossfire make sure you get a capable mobo.Although i'm not sure if they are even making multiple GPU boards yet since it's so new.
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February 14, 2011 1:26:43 AM

oh ya for sure. Asus has Tri SLI and Quad crossfire boards out there. The two i listed are the two boards that are able to handle it. They run like $280 I think, so ya they're far from cheap. MSI doesn't have a SLI mobo so they're out of the picture.
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2011 2:47:22 AM

I've never gone wrong with Gigabyte, even on their low-end boards, solid as a rock.

Edit: And I've bought about 7 mobos from them.
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February 14, 2011 3:10:07 AM

ya they are an option actually. they have 2 SLI certified boards, thanks
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February 14, 2011 5:35:12 AM

Ok i have 2 builds. Help me critique any issues i may have please. They are identical builds except for the mobo and CPU.

Lite on DVD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Antec DF-85: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Asus 560TI: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
corsair TX PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
seagate 1.5TB HDD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
case fan: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
corsair memory 8gb: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

core i5 2500k with gigabyte mobo http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G6011C/ref=ord_car...

or a i7 950 with a sabertooth x58 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

and the price is $1518 for the I5 2500K and $1503 for the i7 950. So whatcha guys think?

edit:: should add that this build is for a SLI 560 Ti, otherwise it would be about $250 cheaper. Or I can go for one 580 or one 570, recommendations on that as well. I just won't go over $500 on GPU's and dual 570 is $700 and dual 580 is $1000
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2011 6:47:35 AM

Absolutely excellent choice for your GPU, I plan on getting a couple GTX 560's for SLI in a little bit, if you can OC them to 1000 core (not impossible with voltage tweaks!) Then you are essentially looking at GTX 570 performance for less money.

The only things I don't like are: I'm sure Seagate make fine hard drives, but I have always always always gone Western Digital (Their 2TB model is stellar), just my opinion.

8GB of memory is fine, because 4GB is certainly enough, but you want to future-proof.

I know I suggested a Gigabyte mobo, but that one looks... kind of blah.

This Gigabyte mobo (for i5) is about 140$, but it's got all the bells and whistles, and has support for 6GB/S Sata read.
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February 14, 2011 7:02:53 AM

Annisman said:
Absolutely excellent choice for your GPU, I plan on getting a couple GTX 560's for SLI in a little bit, if you can OC them to 1000 core (not impossible with voltage tweaks!) Then you are essentially looking at GTX 570 performance for less money.

The only things I don't like are: I'm sure Seagate make fine hard drives, but I have always always always gone Western Digital (Their 2TB model is stellar), just my opinion.

8GB of memory is fine, because 4GB is certainly enough, but you want to future-proof.

I know I suggested a Gigabyte mobo, but that one looks... kind of blah.

This Gigabyte mobo (for i5) is about 140$, but it's got all the bells and whistles, and has support for 6GB/S Sata read.


I was hoping to OC the GPU and CPU's and get some real horsepower out of this machine.

I'll take the advice and go with this HDD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

the 8GB isn't a bad price ($104) and I have the choice of win 7 64 and 32 so if I go 64 it will be used.

What's wrong with that Mobo though?

maybe this one? http://www.amazon.com/P8H67-M-PRO-CSM-3-0-Supported-Sta...

hell the Asus one runs $110 less than the gigabyte one.

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February 14, 2011 7:06:08 AM

actually i can get the Asus one for as low as $130
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2011 7:09:11 AM

The one I linked was 140 from newegg, do you live in Ukraine or something ? lol

And good call on the hdd, WD Black means performance!
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February 14, 2011 7:14:25 AM

Annisman said:
The one I linked was 140 from newegg, do you live in Ukraine or something ? lol

And good call on the hdd, WD Black means performance!


haha there wasn't a link though! I think I'll probably get the Asus sabertooth, it's got good reviews.
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February 14, 2011 1:30:56 PM

the UD3 doesn't do SLI and it's 1156 not 1155 socket it won't work with sandy bridge and lol no I have my macbook. I was up all night researching stuff for this computer
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a b U Graphics card
February 14, 2011 6:07:51 PM

Sandy Bridge is 1155 ? Wow I'm behind the times, ok stop listening to me.
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February 14, 2011 7:46:19 PM

lol alright. Don't feel bad I only know because I've spent the past 2 weeks researching everything for hours on end.
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February 14, 2011 9:40:44 PM

Ok I took the plunge and purchased everything today. Felt good, slightly scary spending so much damn money haha. But here it is, the final specs:

core i5 2500k
Asus p8p67 Deluxe http://usa.asus.com/produ...FHNvccl&templete=2
WD HDD 1TB: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...p;PID=3463938&SID=
Lite on DVD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6827106335
Antec DF-85: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6811129087
Asus 560TI: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...=N82E16814121424
corsair TX PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6817139013
case fan: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6835228014
corsair memory 8gb: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6820233144

I wanted SLI 560TI but I decided to wait like a month or so before ordering another one. Less hit on the pocket book at one time, besides it will take me a week or more to assemble everything, install and overclock the I5. I thought about getting a 570 SLI, but the overclockability is about 7% gain and the 560TI is about 15%+ and in SLI it nearly doubles benchmark scores so it's a great card for the price. 570 isn't worth the extra $200 for the maybe 1-4fps I would gain.


Anyways, total was like $1430 or something.
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a b U Graphics card
February 15, 2011 12:38:07 AM

Looks like a great build! And Asus is always my second choice for mobos, even though I always find a way to kill them...
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February 15, 2011 4:55:52 AM

Annisman said:
Looks like a great build! And Asus is always my second choice for mobos, even though I always find a way to kill them...


thanks. and lol kill them huh?
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a b U Graphics card
February 15, 2011 8:17:08 AM

Yeah, one stopped outputting video.. The other gave me insane latency issues and wouldnt read all my RAM, and yet another Asus board died from a horribly-gone-wrong Bios flash attempt.
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February 15, 2011 9:36:05 PM

You said bought the p67 mobo, can you please tell me where you bought it? The only thing that is stalling my build atm is the mobo. I will be using 2 ssd, 1tb drive and a dvd burner. So i will just need the 4 sata III conections (correct?) I know if I dont pull the trigger soon Ill spend all my money and ill have to wait untill next year
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