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Laptop battery advice

Last response: in Laptops & Notebooks
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May 2, 2005 2:03:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

What is the best way to use a new laptop?

The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the battery
every time I use it - but that's not practical.

Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect it to
the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?

Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
which lists this?

Cheers.

Bobby

More about : laptop battery advice

Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 3:21:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Bobby wrote:

> What is the best way to use a new laptop?
>
> The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
> recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the
> battery every time I use it - but that's not practical.
>
> Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect it
> to the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?
>
> Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
> which lists this?
>
> Cheers.
>
> Bobby

http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/knowledgebase/
disclaimer, my site so I'm biased.

--
Lithium ion internal and external batteries.
Internal from £30 External from £75 (trade)
All batteries factory new and guaranteed.
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/
e-mail qnirahyy@oyhrlbaqre.pb.hx (www.rot13.com)
May 2, 2005 3:44:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Thanks for the link. I've bookmarked your site. Some excellent advice - and
good prices!

But it seems to me (from reading your site) that Li-ion batteries have a
limited life (36 months) so it the charge-discharge cycle isn't very
important since the battery will wither before any bad charging practices
have an affect. Is that the case? If not, why not?

Cheers.

Bobby

"Guy Fawkes" <look@my.sig> wrote in message
news:K9nde.1485$St6.348@fe26.usenetserver.com...
> Bobby wrote:
>
>> What is the best way to use a new laptop?
>>
>> The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
>> recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the
>> battery every time I use it - but that's not practical.
>>
>> Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect it
>> to the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?
>>
>> Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>> which lists this?
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>> Bobby
>
> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/knowledgebase/
> disclaimer, my site so I'm biased.
>
> --
> Lithium ion internal and external batteries.
> Internal from £30 External from £75 (trade)
> All batteries factory new and guaranteed.
> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/
> e-mail qnirahyy@oyhrlbaqre.pb.hx (www.rot13.com)
>
Related resources
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 6:08:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Bobby wrote:

> Thanks for the link. I've bookmarked your site. Some excellent advice -
> and good prices!
>
> But it seems to me (from reading your site) that Li-ion batteries have a
> limited life (36 months) so it the charge-discharge cycle isn't very
> important since the battery will wither before any bad charging practices
> have an affect. Is that the case? If not, why not?

the chemical compounds that make up a cell start decaying slowly from the
moment they are made, the 36 months is a figure I have come up with based
on experience.

charge / discharge cycles are also a decaying process, not a binary event,
eg at x cycles suddenly no more power, it more like something wearing out
when used hard, maybe emergency stops from 70 mph on a set of tyres

if you get 500 full charge/discharge cycles per battery most users are only
going to do a full cycle twice a week, so five years of charge discharge,
so that level of use isn't likely to kill the battery early.

discharge / charge full twice a day (it's possible, we have several
customers who fully discharge / charged > once a day 6 days a week who now
run off our universal external batteries) and the cycles kill the battery
in about nine monthd, long before the ageing process.

there are some analogies to car tyres, fit 4 new one and

1/ they will age, crack and rot in the garage even if you do zero miles,
eventually
2/ they will die very very quickly if you wheelspin away from one set of
lights and screech to a halt at the next
3/ they will last longest if used regularly, carefully, sensitively.

HTH etc


--
Lithium ion internal and external batteries.
Internal from £30 External from £75 (trade)
All batteries factory new and guaranteed.
http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/
e-mail qnirahyy@oyhrlbaqre.pb.hx (www.rot13.com)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 6:28:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

These batteries will last about 3 years average. The older type NiCads had
memory problems. It is good to run down the battery every number of months,
but it is not critical as with the early generation of batteries. I would
not be overly worried about this.

--

JANA
_____


"Bobby" <bobby@aventuremail.com> wrote in message
news:3dm8mhF6qv4hhU1@individual.net...
What is the best way to use a new laptop?

The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the battery
every time I use it - but that's not practical.

Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect it to
the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?

Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
which lists this?

Cheers.

Bobby
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 6:33:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

There have been 3 different battery systems used in laptops, NiCad, NiMH
and Lithium. Some of the advice still being given out (on systems with
Lithium batteries) is old, outdated advice that was only applicable to
NiCad (the oldest and by far the worst of the 3 technologies).

All of the batteries do have a limited number of discharge cycles. The
number is typically in the range of 300 to 500 for lithium batteries.
It's not totally clear to me how this applies to partial cycles.

The "full charge and discharge" advice only applies to NiCad batteries.
There is no need to do this for Lithium batteries and it may even be
harmful. Lithium batteries last longest if they are discharged below
about 20% to 25%. [Some people say they should also not be charged
above about 95%]. Manufacturers recommend long term storage of lithium
batteries at about half-charge, but personally I've stored them fully
charged and not seen significant adverse effects (and I have quite a few
10-year old lithium batteries that will still run a laptop for 2 hours).


Bobby wrote:

> What is the best way to use a new laptop?
>
> The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
> recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the battery
> every time I use it - but that's not practical.
>
> Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect it to
> the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?
>
> Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
> which lists this?
>
> Cheers.
>
> Bobby
>
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 6:40:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Ooops. "Lithium batteries last longest if they are discharged below
about 20% to 25%" should read "if they are NOT discharged below about
20% to 25%"

Just a minor omission there ......


Barry Watzman wrote:

> There have been 3 different battery systems used in laptops, NiCad, NiMH
> and Lithium. Some of the advice still being given out (on systems with
> Lithium batteries) is old, outdated advice that was only applicable to
> NiCad (the oldest and by far the worst of the 3 technologies).
>
> All of the batteries do have a limited number of discharge cycles. The
> number is typically in the range of 300 to 500 for lithium batteries.
> It's not totally clear to me how this applies to partial cycles.
>
> The "full charge and discharge" advice only applies to NiCad batteries.
> There is no need to do this for Lithium batteries and it may even be
> harmful. Lithium batteries last longest if they are discharged below
> about 20% to 25%. [Some people say they should also not be charged
> above about 95%]. Manufacturers recommend long term storage of lithium
> batteries at about half-charge, but personally I've stored them fully
> charged and not seen significant adverse effects (and I have quite a few
> 10-year old lithium batteries that will still run a laptop for 2 hours).
>
>
> Bobby wrote:
>
>> What is the best way to use a new laptop?
>>
>> The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
>> recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the
>> battery every time I use it - but that's not practical.
>>
>> Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect
>> it to the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?
>>
>> Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a
>> website which lists this?
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>> Bobby
>>
May 2, 2005 8:26:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Thanks for this Barry.

Your advice appears to be consistent with something else I read - the Li Ion
batteries do not suffer from the memory effect.

So it sounds to me that the "normal" full charge/partial discharge cycle
(which is the natural way to use a laptop i.e. connected to the main most of
the time but occasionally used on the battery for an hour or two) is best
for these batteries?

I was advised the fully charge and fully discharge the battery when its new.
Is that advice sound?

Bobby

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:42763BF0.4040507@neo.rr.com...
> Ooops. "Lithium batteries last longest if they are discharged below about
> 20% to 25%" should read "if they are NOT discharged below about 20% to
> 25%"
>
> Just a minor omission there ......
>
>
> Barry Watzman wrote:
>
>> There have been 3 different battery systems used in laptops, NiCad, NiMH
>> and Lithium. Some of the advice still being given out (on systems with
>> Lithium batteries) is old, outdated advice that was only applicable to
>> NiCad (the oldest and by far the worst of the 3 technologies).
>>
>> All of the batteries do have a limited number of discharge cycles. The
>> number is typically in the range of 300 to 500 for lithium batteries.
>> It's not totally clear to me how this applies to partial cycles.
>>
>> The "full charge and discharge" advice only applies to NiCad batteries.
>> There is no need to do this for Lithium batteries and it may even be
>> harmful. Lithium batteries last longest if they are discharged below
>> about 20% to 25%. [Some people say they should also not be charged above
>> about 95%]. Manufacturers recommend long term storage of lithium
>> batteries at about half-charge, but personally I've stored them fully
>> charged and not seen significant adverse effects (and I have quite a few
>> 10-year old lithium batteries that will still run a laptop for 2 hours).
>>
>>
>> Bobby wrote:
>>
>>> What is the best way to use a new laptop?
>>>
>>> The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
>>> recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the
>>> battery every time I use it - but that's not practical.
>>>
>>> Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect
>>> it to the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?
>>>
>>> Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>>> which lists this?
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> Bobby
>>>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 8:26:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Bobby wrote:

> I was advised the fully charge and fully discharge the battery when its new.
> Is that advice sound?

My Li Ion battery came fully charged from Dell.. I thought that was
strange, but it's probably part of their pre-shipment testing. Has
anyone else ever received a laptop battery fully charged out of the box?
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 8:38:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Compared to NiCad, Lithium batteries do not have the "memory effect",
and don't need to be fully chaged/discharged (which was related to the
memory effect). However, almost everyone advises to do a full charge,
then a nearly full discharge (but not below about 20%), then a recharge
on the first use of a new lithim battery. I don't have any experience
to either refute or support that, but it's a nearly universal
recommendation.

There is certainly nothing wrong with cycling the battery (substantial
discharge & recharge), that is, indeed, the expected application. The
number of cycles is limited and finite, but moderately large (hundreds).



Bobby wrote:

> Thanks for this Barry.
>
> Your advice appears to be consistent with something else I read - the Li Ion
> batteries do not suffer from the memory effect.
>
> So it sounds to me that the "normal" full charge/partial discharge cycle
> (which is the natural way to use a laptop i.e. connected to the main most of
> the time but occasionally used on the battery for an hour or two) is best
> for these batteries?
>
> I was advised the fully charge and fully discharge the battery when its new.
> Is that advice sound?
>
> Bobby
>
> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:42763BF0.4040507@neo.rr.com...
>
>>Ooops. "Lithium batteries last longest if they are discharged below about
>>20% to 25%" should read "if they are NOT discharged below about 20% to
>>25%"
>>
>>Just a minor omission there ......
>>
>>
>>Barry Watzman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There have been 3 different battery systems used in laptops, NiCad, NiMH
>>>and Lithium. Some of the advice still being given out (on systems with
>>>Lithium batteries) is old, outdated advice that was only applicable to
>>>NiCad (the oldest and by far the worst of the 3 technologies).
>>>
>>>All of the batteries do have a limited number of discharge cycles. The
>>>number is typically in the range of 300 to 500 for lithium batteries.
>>>It's not totally clear to me how this applies to partial cycles.
>>>
>>>The "full charge and discharge" advice only applies to NiCad batteries.
>>>There is no need to do this for Lithium batteries and it may even be
>>>harmful. Lithium batteries last longest if they are discharged below
>>>about 20% to 25%. [Some people say they should also not be charged above
>>>about 95%]. Manufacturers recommend long term storage of lithium
>>>batteries at about half-charge, but personally I've stored them fully
>>>charged and not seen significant adverse effects (and I have quite a few
>>>10-year old lithium batteries that will still run a laptop for 2 hours).
>>>
>>>
>>>Bobby wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>What is the best way to use a new laptop?
>>>>
>>>>The manufacturer points out that the battery has a limited number of
>>>>recharge cycles and recommends that I fully charge and discharge the
>>>>battery every time I use it - but that's not practical.
>>>>
>>>>Most likely I will use the battery for an hour or two and then connect
>>>>it to the mains supply. Is that bad for the battery?
>>>>
>>>>Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>>>>which lists this?
>>>>
>>>>Cheers.
>>>>
>>>>Bobby
>>>>
>
>
>
May 2, 2005 9:54:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

X-No-Archive: yes
In message <3dm8mhF6qv4hhU1@individual.net>, Bobby
<bobby@aventuremail.com> writes

>Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>which lists this?

Loading and running Windows! I use a DOS-based word-processor for using
my laptop on the move when there isn't a handy power station outlet
socket to hand. Not entering WIN at the prompt means that a charge will
last several days instead of several hours. I think we've become so
obsessed with Windows sodware that we've forgotten what excellent
non-Windows software there is around. I even found USB2 drivers on the
Jumbo website, and I use Goldenhawk's (Jeff Jarold) DVD/RW/CD software
to write CD-ROMs.

--
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
"Return of the Eagles", the last book in James Follett's 'Eagles' trilogy
published by Severn House, London & New York, Dec 2004
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 2, 2005 9:54:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

JF wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
> In message <3dm8mhF6qv4hhU1@individual.net>, Bobby
> <bobby@aventuremail.com> writes
>
>> Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a
>> website which lists this?
>
> Loading and running Windows! I use a DOS-based word-processor for
> using my laptop on the move when there isn't a handy power station
> outlet socket to hand. Not entering WIN at the prompt means that a
> charge will last several days instead of several hours. I think we've
> become so obsessed with Windows sodware that we've forgotten what
> excellent non-Windows software there is around. I even found USB2
> drivers on the Jumbo website, and I use Goldenhawk's (Jeff Jarold)
> DVD/RW/CD software to write CD-ROMs.
>
> --
> James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP)
> http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk "Return of the Eagles", the
> last book in James Follett's 'Eagles' trilogy published by Severn
> House, London & New York, Dec 2004

True, Word for Dos is almost as good as Winword once you master the command
structure, and loading it is so quick you can have a letter typed whilst
WinXP is booting!

Dennis.


--
Digital Photo-charts fo all UK areas.
Remove 'nospam' to reply.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 12:44:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <FQPzSGDysldCFwLw@marage.demon.co.uk>, JF
<jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> writes
>X-No-Archive: yes
>In message <3dm8mhF6qv4hhU1@individual.net>, Bobby
><bobby@aventuremail.com> writes
>
>>Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>>which lists this?
>
>Loading and running Windows! I use a DOS-based word-processor for using
>my laptop on the move when there isn't a handy power station outlet
>socket to hand. Not entering WIN at the prompt means that a charge will
>last several days instead of several hours. I think we've become so
>obsessed with Windows sodware that we've forgotten what excellent
>non-Windows software there is around. I even found USB2 drivers on the
>Jumbo website, and I use Goldenhawk's (Jeff Jarold) DVD/RW/CD software
>to write CD-ROMs.
>
Do you have a link for this Jumbo website? My Googling overwhelmed me!

Regards
--
Roger Hunt
May 3, 2005 4:36:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In message <XJkDGIAMModCFwZj@carewg.demon.co.uk>, Roger Hunt
<x@carewg.demon.co.uk> writes

>>>Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>>>which lists this?
>>
>>Loading and running Windows! I use a DOS-based word-processor for using
>>my laptop on the move when there isn't a handy power station outlet
>>socket to hand.
>> I even found USB2 drivers on the
>>Jumbo website, and I use Goldenhawk's (Jeff Jarold) DVD/RW/CD software
>>to write CD-ROMs.
>>
>Do you have a link for this Jumbo website? My Googling overwhelmed me!

Apologies. It's http://www.jumbo.com/

I haven't looked at it for some time. There were pages of DOS drivers.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 4:36:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I contest the contention that a laptop could run "for days" no matter
what software you were running. If the laptop is in use, the screen
backlights and the hard drive motors will be running. A laptop running
windows will typically run for 2-3 hours on a battery charge. The most
that you could possibly, in the most extreme case hope for with any
software change of any kind (but with the laptop still on and actually
being used in a useful manner) would be to double or triple that, but I
would guess that you'd be lucky to get 20% to 40% more time.

I think that this is just "MS Bashing".


JF wrote:

> In message <XJkDGIAMModCFwZj@carewg.demon.co.uk>, Roger Hunt
> <x@carewg.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>>> Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>>>> which lists this?
>>>
>>>
>>> Loading and running Windows! I use a DOS-based word-processor for using
>>> my laptop on the move when there isn't a handy power station outlet
>>> socket to hand.
>>> I even found USB2 drivers on the
>>> Jumbo website, and I use Goldenhawk's (Jeff Jarold) DVD/RW/CD software
>>> to write CD-ROMs.
>>>
>> Do you have a link for this Jumbo website? My Googling overwhelmed me!
>
>
> Apologies. It's http://www.jumbo.com/
>
> I haven't looked at it for some time. There were pages of DOS drivers.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 4:36:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Barry Watzman wrote:
> I contest the contention that a laptop could run "for days" no matter
> what software you were running. If the laptop is in use, the screen
> backlights and the hard drive motors will be running. A laptop running
> windows will typically run for 2-3 hours on a battery charge. The most
> that you could possibly, in the most extreme case hope for with any
> software change of any kind (but with the laptop still on and actually
> being used in a useful manner) would be to double or triple that, but I
> would guess that you'd be lucky to get 20% to 40% more time.
>
> I think that this is just "MS Bashing".

DOS is made by MS too remember?
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 5:09:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,comp.sys.laptops,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,uk.comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <y+5e5$AolrdCFwOH@marage.demon.co.uk>, JF
<jf@NOSPAMmarage.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <XJkDGIAMModCFwZj@carewg.demon.co.uk>, Roger Hunt
><x@carewg.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>>>Also, what sort of activity drains the battery most? Is there a website
>>>>which lists this?
>>>
>>>Loading and running Windows! I use a DOS-based word-processor for using
>>>my laptop on the move when there isn't a handy power station outlet
>>>socket to hand.
>>> I even found USB2 drivers on the
>>>Jumbo website, and I use Goldenhawk's (Jeff Jarold) DVD/RW/CD software
>>>to write CD-ROMs.
>>>
>>Do you have a link for this Jumbo website? My Googling overwhelmed me!
>
>Apologies. It's http://www.jumbo.com/
>
>I haven't looked at it for some time. There were pages of DOS drivers.

I must confess that I was too dim to try typing in www.jumbo.com!
Hey-ho.
Thanks for that - always good to have these resources handy.
--
Roger Hunt
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 2:08:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:42765783.60604@neo.rr.com...
> Compared to NiCad, Lithium batteries do not have the "memory effect",
> and don't need to be fully chaged/discharged (which was related to the
> memory effect). However, almost everyone advises to do a full charge,
> then a nearly full discharge (but not below about 20%), then a recharge
> on the first use of a new lithim battery. I don't have any experience
> to either refute or support that, but it's a nearly universal
> recommendation.
>
> There is certainly nothing wrong with cycling the battery (substantial
> discharge & recharge), that is, indeed, the expected application. The
> number of cycles is limited and finite, but moderately large (hundreds).
>

You can often find what to do. but not why to do it.

The first time you use a Lithium battery, the advise is to discharge it
until the monitor circuit cuts it off. This is not for the benefit of the
battery itself, but to calibrate the charge monitor circuit. This should be
repeated every few months.

It makes no difference how far you discharge a lithium battery (as long as
you don't overdo it). You strike 15-20% of its capacity for every 100
charge/discharge cycles. To clarify: that's 100 charge and discharge where
it's fully discharged every time. Or 200 cycles where it is only 50%
discharged or any combination and permutation thereof.

There is also a time penalty. Generally a battery loses 20% of its capacity
for every year it is fully charged and stored at 25 Celcius. Lower
temperatures (*NOT* below zero Celcius), it lasts longer. Lower charge, it
lasts longer. If not used, they are best stored at 40% charge in a fridge.

Although Lithium bateries offer the highest energy capacity for size and
weight of any currently available technology, they also have by far the
shortest life,

Incidentally, Nickel Cadmium batteries do not have (and never have) had a
'memory effect'. This was something dreampt up by the marketing men trying
to persuade us to buy the much more expensive (at the time) Nickel
Metal-Hydride batteries. The ironic part is that Ni-MiH batteries do suffer
from a phenomenon that appears to be similar to 'memory effect' called
voltage depression. The belief in the memory effect is a symptom of an
unrelated problem that occurs in little used Ni-Cd cells (Nickel whisker
growth).
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 2:12:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Michael Lee" <gte980p@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:D 560b3$gkd$1@news-int.gatech.edu...
> Bobby wrote:
>
> > I was advised the fully charge and fully discharge the battery when its
new.
> > Is that advice sound?
>
> My Li Ion battery came fully charged from Dell.. I thought that was
> strange, but it's probably part of their pre-shipment testing. Has
> anyone else ever received a laptop battery fully charged out of the box?

All Lithium Ion batteries are shipped fully charged. That's how they come
off the production line. It also gives them the longest possible shelf
life.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 8:03:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Re:

Lithium bateries ... also have by far the
shortest life,

Nickel Cadmium batteries do not have (and never have) had a 'memory
effect'. This was something dreampt up by the marketing men trying to
persuade us to buy the much more expensive (at the time) Nickel
Metal-Hydride batteries.

Anyone on this board who has had any significant amount of experience
with both NiCad and Lithium batteries knows that both of those
statements are categorically wrong.

In fact, the "memory effect" was widely discussed decades ago, when
there was alternative to NiCad batteries.


Ye Electrik Fanne Clubbe wrote:

> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:42765783.60604@neo.rr.com...
>
>>Compared to NiCad, Lithium batteries do not have the "memory effect",
>>and don't need to be fully chaged/discharged (which was related to the
>>memory effect). However, almost everyone advises to do a full charge,
>>then a nearly full discharge (but not below about 20%), then a recharge
>>on the first use of a new lithim battery. I don't have any experience
>>to either refute or support that, but it's a nearly universal
>>recommendation.
>>
>>There is certainly nothing wrong with cycling the battery (substantial
>>discharge & recharge), that is, indeed, the expected application. The
>>number of cycles is limited and finite, but moderately large (hundreds).
>>
>
>
> You can often find what to do. but not why to do it.
>
> The first time you use a Lithium battery, the advise is to discharge it
> until the monitor circuit cuts it off. This is not for the benefit of the
> battery itself, but to calibrate the charge monitor circuit. This should be
> repeated every few months.
>
> It makes no difference how far you discharge a lithium battery (as long as
> you don't overdo it). You strike 15-20% of its capacity for every 100
> charge/discharge cycles. To clarify: that's 100 charge and discharge where
> it's fully discharged every time. Or 200 cycles where it is only 50%
> discharged or any combination and permutation thereof.
>
> There is also a time penalty. Generally a battery loses 20% of its capacity
> for every year it is fully charged and stored at 25 Celcius. Lower
> temperatures (*NOT* below zero Celcius), it lasts longer. Lower charge, it
> lasts longer. If not used, they are best stored at 40% charge in a fridge.
>
> Although Lithium bateries offer the highest energy capacity for size and
> weight of any currently available technology, they also have by far the
> shortest life,
>
> Incidentally, Nickel Cadmium batteries do not have (and never have) had a
> 'memory effect'. This was something dreampt up by the marketing men trying
> to persuade us to buy the much more expensive (at the time) Nickel
> Metal-Hydride batteries. The ironic part is that Ni-MiH batteries do suffer
> from a phenomenon that appears to be similar to 'memory effect' called
> voltage depression. The belief in the memory effect is a symptom of an
> unrelated problem that occurs in little used Ni-Cd cells (Nickel whisker
> growth).
>
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 9:02:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message news:o Sqde.1436$Q.147@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 14:33:18 GMT

There have been 3 different battery systems used in laptops,
NiCad, NiMH and Lithium. Some of the advice still being given
out (on systems with Lithium batteries) is old, outdated advice
that was only applicable to NiCad (the oldest and by far the
worst of the 3 technologies)...

Hi Barry... Ni-Cad the worst? It depends on the application. As it
is believed among RC enthusiast that Ni-Cad can handle lots of
vibrations and not suffer any damage. Unlike Ni-MH. And many CMOS
batteries for laptops are still using Ni-Cad. So I wouldn't
necessary call it the worst of the three. My Sharp PC-4501 ('89 era)
actually uses the fourth battery type called Lead-Acid (Pb).






Cheers!


________________________________________________________
Bill (using a HP Pavilion AMD 1.2GHZ under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 9:02:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

BillW50 wrote:

> necessary call it the worst of the three. My Sharp PC-4501 ('89 era)
> actually uses the fourth battery type called Lead-Acid (Pb).

My talking Alphie Robot computer from the 80s (taught me how to talk and
count) used a fifth battery type based on zinc-manganese-dioxide called
alkaline. Unfortunately, it exploded when I attempted to recharge it. :) 
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 9:43:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Michael Lee" <gte980p@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:D 58cdp$3qc$1@news-int2.gatech.edu...
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:29:33 -0400

BillW50 wrote:

> necessary call it the worst of the three. My Sharp PC-4501 ('89 era)
> actually uses the fourth battery type called Lead-Acid (Pb).

My talking Alphie Robot computer from the 80s (taught me how to
talk and count) used a fifth battery type based on zinc-
manganese-dioxide called alkaline. Unfortunately, it exploded
when I attempted to recharge it. :) 

That's very interesting Michael... While I have lots of luck with
the first four rechargeable battery types. But this rechargeable
zinc-manganese-dioxide battery stuff I never had much luck with. It
appears that you haven't either. <sigh> Although 2 out of 4 AA
batteries are still kicking. Those things leak too easy when
recharged for me. Although I never had an explosion. <grin>






Cheers!


________________________________________________________
Bill (using a HP Pavilion AMD 1.2GHZ under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 10:47:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In my view, NiCads are the worst. Almost unconditionally. Very short
life (both shelf life and use life), memory effect, just overall
terrible. RC may be an exception, as vibration is not a consideration
in almost any other application.

SLA (sealed lead acid) normally isn't used for laptops, so I didn't
include it, but you are correct it's a 4th major category of
rechargeable battery, a derivative, of course, of the automobile battery
but sealed and leakproof. Virtually all UPS' use them.


BillW50 wrote:

> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message news:o Sqde.1436$Q.147@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
> Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 14:33:18 GMT
>
> There have been 3 different battery systems used in laptops,
> NiCad, NiMH and Lithium. Some of the advice still being given
> out (on systems with Lithium batteries) is old, outdated advice
> that was only applicable to NiCad (the oldest and by far the
> worst of the 3 technologies)...
>
> Hi Barry... Ni-Cad the worst? It depends on the application. As it
> is believed among RC enthusiast that Ni-Cad can handle lots of
> vibrations and not suffer any damage. Unlike Ni-MH. And many CMOS
> batteries for laptops are still using Ni-Cad. So I wouldn't
> necessary call it the worst of the three. My Sharp PC-4501 ('89 era)
> actually uses the fourth battery type called Lead-Acid (Pb).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> ________________________________________________________
> Bill (using a HP Pavilion AMD 1.2GHZ under Windows 2000)
> -- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 3, 2005 11:39:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message news:4277C745.5010403@neo.rr.com...
Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 18:47:33 GMT

In my view, NiCads are the worst. Almost unconditionally. Very
short life (both shelf life and use life), memory effect, just
overall terrible. RC may be an exception, as vibration is not a
consideration in almost any other application.

Hi Barry... I've heard that Ni-Cads will chemically break down after
7 years no matter what. But I still have 30 year old Ni-Cads that
are still kicking. Not good enough to use for practical
applications, since they only have a capacity of 1/10th of what they
are rated for. While those that I have are 20 years old, are about
holding 1/3rd of their rated capacity. So I don't think Ni-Cads are
really the worst. Although they are one of the worst for weight vs.
capacity. But sometimes this isn't an issue.

Ni-Cads and memory effect? I generally drain them pretty low anyway
during use, so I can't comment too much about this. So this could be
indeed a problem for sure, but I can't swear to it. But my Toshiba
2595XDVD laptops use Ni-Cads for the CMOS. And they are now pushing
6 years old and no problems at all. And one of them often never gets
AC or power for 4 to 6 months at a time (it's a backup for the other
one). So it is doing its job for now for 6 years. So I wouldn't
discount Ni-Cad batteries at all.

I do have what is called a Triton battery charger/discharger that is
a really smart charger/discharger (charges all four types that we
have talked about). And when I try to recycle Ni-Cad batteries, the
2nd and sometimes the 3rd cycle, those Ni-Cads really come back to
life. But further cycles only result in much less of a capacity.
This I don't know why?

One of the big benefits of Ni-Cads is that they can take a lot of
abuse. Meaning you can quickly and overcharge them with little or no
effects. Although try that with Ni-MH or lithium and you quickly get
into deep trouble.

SLA (sealed lead acid) normally isn't used for laptops, so I
didn't include it, but you are correct it's a 4th major
category of rechargeable battery, a derivative, of course, of
the automobile battery but sealed and leakproof. Virtually all
UPS' use them.

Yes all true! And I used to think that if you keep them trickle
charged, they would last the longest for this type. Wrong! As you
have to use them once in awhile (every few months) to burn off the
corrosion off of the plates. So anybody running UPS should do this
now and then. Otherwise they won't last as long as they could.
<grin>






Cheers!


________________________________________________________
Bill (using a HP Pavilion AMD 1.2GHZ under Windows 2000)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 4, 2005 5:04:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

On 2005.5.3, BillW wrote:




> My Sharp PC-4501 ('89 era) actually uses the fourth battery type
> called Lead-Acid (Pb).

So did the Apple/Sony PowerBook 100. I remember those batteries being
fairly easy to kill. They were also heavy.


--
garglemonster@my-deja.com

Should I get locked in the PRINCICAL'S OFFICE today -- or have a
VASECTOMY??
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
May 5, 2005 6:08:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Garglemonster" <garglemonster@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:87ekcnponl.fsf@shroud.disorg...
Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 01:04:46 -0400

On 2005.5.3, BillW wrote:

> My Sharp PC-4501 ('89 era) actually uses the fourth battery type
> called Lead-Acid (Pb).

So did the Apple/Sony PowerBook 100. I remember those batteries
being fairly easy to kill. They were also heavy.

Well I knew a great deal about the care and feeding of lead-acid
batteries and mine lasted over 10 years. And at the time, the trick
was to always have it on a trickle charge. Well whenever you can of
course. Also they generally don't like to be left in a discharged
state for too long. 6 to 12 hours is probably okay. But any longer
really does a lot of harm to them.

Although later after the battery died. I also learned that you
should discharge them a bit every few months (all it takes is
running them off of the battery for 5 to 10 minutes should be just
fine). As this burns off the corrosion off of the plates (that white
powder stuff). Then throw it back on the charger again.




Cheers!


______________________________________________
Bill (using a Toshiba 2595XDVD & Windows 98SE)
-- written and edited within WordStar 5.0
!