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Quad core, Social Gaming $600-700

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April 22, 2011 9:14:35 PM

Approximate Purchase Date: (1-2 weeks)

Budget Range: (600-650 up to 700) After Rebates

System Usage from Most to Least Important: (VMware for school, Light Gaming ie FFXI, TFC2,Surfing, overall main computer)

Parts Not Required: (keyboard, mouse, monitor, speakers, OS) (I get XP,Win7,etc free from School)

Preferred Website(s) for Parts: (newegg.com , amazon.com would like to get all from one place)

Country of Origin: (USA)

Parts Preferences: by brand or type (AMD prefer a Phenom x4,6)

Overclocking: No / Maybe

SLI or Crossfire: Maybe (Doubtful since I'm not a hardcore gamer)

Monitor Resolution: (1280x1024 maybe a tad higher)

Additional Comments: (KISS stable,reliable,practical)

I appreciate any help. Mainly I need help picking a gfx card and if someone knows a better deal on CPU/MOBO
The only parts I'm really married too is the case,but if that PSU is not good I can drop the combo.
I currently have 3 cheap boxes that I used to three box on FFXI 2+ years ago.

I'm basically wanting a good all in one so that I can still surf, upgrade from XP to 7, play mild games, and have enough HDD space/memory to
work with VMware for my classes. I'd say I'm a power user, but I'm old school K.I.S.S I have a 17inch monitor with and 2 15inch and I plan to keep that for at least another year or so. (d-sub not DVI)

Since I'm upgrading from a Sempron/Celeron D a 4core should future proof "my needs" for quite a while. I'm wanting reliability /stability without having to worry about cooling Issues or a flaky mobo and I'm not so much into overclocking anymore as I used to be.

If it helps to explain how I am, I could have purchased a Dodge Challenger or a Camaro yet I drive an Avenger lol...

Parts list that come to $600 after rebates


Case and PSU Combo (Cooler Master)

COOLER MASTER HAF 912 RC-912-KKN1 Black SECC/ ABS Plastic ATX Mid Tower
COOLER MASTER GX Series RS650-ACAAE3-US 650W ATX12V v2.31 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...
$110.00 for Combo with $30.00 Mail in rebate (80.00 final Price)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HDD1 Seagate Barracuda ST3500413AS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$39.99

HDD2 SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$54.99
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MOBO & CPU Combo

ASUS M4A87TD/USB3 AM3 AMD 870 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0
AMD Phenom II X4 840 3.2GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM3 95W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...
$182.98
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DVD/CD RW
LITE-ON Black 24X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 12X DVD+R DL 24X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...
$25.98 (yeah I know I couldn't pass up the CDS)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RAM/Memory
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$79.99
OR
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$104.99
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CPU Cooler

Stock
OR
COOLER MASTER Hyper 212 Plus RR-B10-212P-G1
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$34.99
OR
COOLER MASTER Intel Core i5 compatible GeminII S RR-CCH-PBU1-GP
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$39.99
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GFX
HIS H467QR1GH Radeon HD 4670 1GB 128-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$69.99 with -5.00 Instant and $10.00 Mail in Rebate (Final Price $54.99)

Other GFX Cards I saw

MSI R5670-PMD1G OC Radeon HD 5670 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$30.00 Mail-in Rebate $94.99 Final Price ($63.99)

MSI R6570-MD1GD3/LP Radeon HD 6570 1GB 128-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready Low Profile Ready Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
$79.99

Newegg.com
Subtotal: $623.89
Shipping $13.10

Grand Total: $636.99 with $40.00 Mail in Rebates

I just saw for $50 more I could upgrade to this CPU ,but I just don't know if I would notice the difference
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 125W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

More about : quad core social gaming 600 700

April 22, 2011 11:30:33 PM

I know that's a lotta info ,but I appreciate the help. Its been over 6years since I've built a computer lol
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April 22, 2011 11:55:03 PM

the phenom ii x4 840 is really an athlon ii x4, just that AMD felt that it didnt want to make a Athlon II X4 650 so yes go for the phenom ii x4 955 instead if you can otherwise go for the Athlon ii X4 640 and save yourself the $10

also get the hyper 212 +, drop down to 4GB ram and use savings to get at least a 6850, that gives you option tolater on upgrade to add another 4GB if you decide ytou need it
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April 23, 2011 12:49:59 AM
April 23, 2011 4:02:22 AM

Thanks for the input guys, the reason I have 8gigs of ram instead of 4 is for VMware. Same for the extra HDD Gonna split it in half for storage of ISO's/files and half for using other OS/vmware installs

Running multiple VM clients uses a lot of Ram. Our machines at school have over 12 so I think 8 is probably the lowest I want to go. Now I may not need the speed of the ram I chose. Which would be better for all around the $80.00 DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) or the $105 for DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666)

I checked yesterday and microcenter has the CPU in my combo for $99.99

Combo I chose I'm paying like 85.49 for the mobo and 97.50 for the cpu If I did get the combo at the end the 6 core , It would be 85.49 for mobo and 145.50 for cpu so for $50 I didn't think I would notice the difference ,but if you think the L3 and 2 more cores would be worth it for what I'm using it for please let me know.

I was just thinking that is like half the price of the cpu I chose so I figured 6 cores will drop in price when Bulldoazer comes out so I'd be better off keeping my $50


Picture of HDD computer this is replacing
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Best solution

April 23, 2011 1:21:27 PM

Quote:
Case and PSU Combo (Cooler Master)

COOLER MASTER HAF 912 RC-912-KKN1 Black SECC/ ABS Plastic ATX Mid Tower
COOLER MASTER GX Series RS650-ACAAE3-US 650W ATX12V v2.31 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Comb [...] mbo.634440
$110.00 for Combo with $30.00 Mail in rebate (80.00 final Price)

I would NOT buy that power supply. Excerpt from Hardocp's review:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/11/22/cooler_master...
The Cooler Master GX 650W is the first Cooler Master power supply we have seen in a long time, and unfortunately it did not exactly leave me wanting more. Really it left me wanting some mouthwash to get this bad taste out of my mouth. The sad part is this unit is actually one I see a lot in retail and usually the price is over $100 (looking at you Microcenter) so when the opportunity arose to review this unit, I thought we might be on to something. A $100, 650W power supply can't be all bad right? Well I guess this unit isn't all bad but there were so many things about this unit that just scream "polished turd" in a box that it makes it kind of hard to see those things.

I suggest one of these (they are very good PSU's, pick one)
XFX Core Edition, Seasonic, silverstone, Corsair, or Antec PSU's. you dont need a 650w PSU, 500-550w will be just fine for your system, unless you think you might SLI your GPU in the future.
XFX Core Edition PRO650W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
XFX Core Edition PRO550W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
SILVERSTONE ST50F-ES 500W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
SeaSonic S12II 620 Bronze 620W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
SeaSonic M12II 620 Bronze 620W Modular
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
CORSAIR Enthusiast Series CMPSU-550VX 550W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
CORSAIR Enthusiast Series CMPSU-650TX 650W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Quote:
COOLER MASTER Intel Core i5 compatible GeminII S RR-CCH-PBU1-GP
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6835103046
$39.99

Great HSF, I have one. its quiet and lower profile than the Hyper 212.
if you are not over clocking the stock cooler should be ok. if the stock cooler is a bit noisy, get a better fan for $5.

I'm all for L3 Cache. without it, it is like putting a 2 Barrel Carburetor on a V8 instead of a 4 Barrel one.

I would think that if you are running VMware the more cores the better, though it depends a lot on coding of the soft ware that is running. I think if you are running heavy tasks in vmware more cores would be better, but if you a just running light usage software you probably won't notice the difference. so in the end it up to you and your pocket book.

Share
April 23, 2011 2:08:37 PM

any reason you aren't doing a Sandy Bridge build? a 2400 will outperform your 955 by about 40-45%


i5-2400: $189.99
AS Rock H61M/U3S3: $79.99 (the only H61 with USB3/SATA 3)
G.Skill 8 GB DDR3-1333: $79.99
HD 5850: $139.99
Seagate 500 GB HDD: $39.99
LiteOn DVD Burner: $19.99
Xigmatek 400W PSU: $39.99 (32 amps is enough to run the 5850)
Rosewill Challenger case: $54.99

$644.92 total.
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April 23, 2011 5:52:12 PM

Wow Thanks jerreddredd I had searched ,but didn't see that yeah I'll definitly change that to the Antec or Corsair Powersupply.

To everyone else I can definitely check out a SB build ,but the cpu I said I was looking at was

AMD Phenom II X4 840 3.2GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM3 95W basically for $97.50
vs
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 125W basically for $145.00

If we are going to build a SB I appreciate the help ,but we can't compare a $100 cpu to a $200 cpu right?

And I appreciate linking builds for the SB ,but you are taking out the core components I must have.

The 2 HDD and the 8gigs of ram is a must which is why the GPU I listed are around half the price of every other one suggested.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my long post ,but I need that for the #1 purpose VMware for school. Do I need a $140 card for light gaming?
Its been a long time since I built a computer which is why I need help picking out a decent GPU

This is going to be my main computer I do VMware for school, Light Gaming ie FFXI, TFC2,Surfing, overall main computer

If there is a SB combo that performs better for the same price or a little more I'd more than happy to check it out so I can get the most bang for my buck or better performance. The links I've seen for the SB CPU is more than the combos

Thanks and I really do appreciate the input.

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April 23, 2011 6:01:00 PM

Just add a second hdd to sqcrewysql's build and you can still stay in your $700 budget and have the hardware you wanted, but an SB build.
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April 23, 2011 8:45:37 PM

Best answer selected by MRHTOAD76.
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April 23, 2011 9:27:45 PM

Here is a Quad Core Sandy Bridge build. it is right at your budget maybe under depending on which GPU you chose. I used the same HDD's, RAM and Case as your build. this build will be much faster than the AMD build and will be rock solid and stable for you. I even included a inexpensive modular PSU that will handle a big GPU later down the road.

LITE-ON DVD Writer - Bulk - Black SATA Model iHAS224-06 LightScribe Support - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Item #: N82E16827106333
$20.99

COOLER MASTER HAF 912 RC-912-KKN1 Black SECC/ ABS Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Item #: N82E16811119233
$10.00 Mail-in Rebate
$59.99

Seagate Barracuda ST3500413AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Item #: N82E16822148701
$39.99

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Item #: N82E16822152185
-$5.00 Instant
$69.99
$64.99

Antec BP550 Plus 550W Continuous Power ATX12V V2.2 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Item #: N82E16817371016
-$20.00 Instant
$79.99
$59.99

Mushkin Enhanced Silverline 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop Memory Model 996770
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Item #: N82E16820226095
$82.99

MB/CPU Combo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...
Intel Core i5-2400 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz (3.4GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor BX80623I52400
Item #: N82E16819115074
Return Policy: CPU Replacement Only Return Policy
Protect Your Investment (expand for options)
MSI H67MS-E43 (B3) LGA 1155 Intel H67 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
Item #: N82E16813130584
-$25.00 Combo
$299.98
$274.98
-----------
$603.92 shipping is only $10.30 to west coast and there is a $10 MIR

GPU options - these are around $100 after MIR
The best GPU choice (not breaking the budget too much) is the HD 5770 these are both good cards and have MIR and low shipping cost. this the lowest priced GPU I recommend for doing any gaming on. of course I am thinking of gaming a 1920x1080 or 1680x1050. you are at 1280x1024 so you could get away with less (see HD 5670).

this one has 1 x d-sub and 1 x DVI so you will need one adapter to run both your monitors:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

these all have 2 x DVI so you will need 2 adapters
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

if all of the above break your budget you could get away with this at 1280x1024
HD 5670 has d-sub and DVI
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


hope this helps

JD
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April 23, 2011 9:39:01 PM

If I add the hdd back and the ram that puts it to $750 and doesn't explain if I need a $140 GPU for light gaming. It doesn't explain why we are comparing a $100 cpu to a $200 cpu and it seems like only 1 person read what I was trying to accomplish.

So I guess I'm switching to an Antec Power Supply

ASUS M4A87TD/USB3 AM3 AMD 870 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 AMD Motherboard Combo
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz Socket AM3 125W Price $238.98
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Price $ 79.99
Seagate Barracuda ST3500413AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s Price $ 49.99
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Price $ 54.99
COOLER MASTER HAF 912 RC-912-KKN1 Black SECC $10 mail in rebate Price $ 59.99 -10
Antec NEO ECO 620W TX12V v2.3 Price $ 69.99
COOLER MASTER Intel Core i5 compatible GeminII S RR-CCH-PBU1-GP Price $ 39.99
Lite On DVD Burner Price $ 19.99
MSI R5670-PMD1G OC Radeon HD 5670 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Price $ $94.99 -30 Final ($64.99)
Radeon 5670 GPU from article Best PCI Express (PCIe) Card For $80
(http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card-...)
Shipping around $20.00

and final price $730 with $40 mail in rebates.
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April 23, 2011 9:41:33 PM

Thanks was posting while you were I will check that out as I wont be placing order until Wed.
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April 23, 2011 9:53:18 PM
April 23, 2011 11:28:34 PM

I'm guessing you keep skipping over the light gaming part k1114

every response I type my wife says is mean or rude so I guess I'll just say I didn't see how a Phenomx6 would actually help my vmware compared to a dual/quad so the budget is a guideline. If there is no benefit to spending the $100 it doesn't matter if its in the budget or not. The benchmarks I've seen won't let me compare that $100 cpu to the i5-2400 and I'm sure even if it did it would be related to gaming not Vmware. I should have just left off gaming all together and then just added a $60-80 card after I got my build set ,but I thought by saying light gaming and showing my resolution, and even my listing the games would show that these are secondary and a $50 card would be sufficient.

I thought by listing the parts I was looking at people would use that as a guide. I don't want to get a mobo nobody has reviewed or tested I don't need/want bleeding edge I just want what I need. So since I didn't list the top of the line AMD I didn't think people would list top of the line/newest Intel or AMD. I'm not a fanboy and for this build I think the lower the heat the better ,but that doesn't mean I want the newest CPU.

I do appreciate the time everyone has taken to try to assist me and if for some reason I wasn't clear in my needs/ wants I apologize, but I thought I was.
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April 23, 2011 11:57:53 PM

When someone sets a budget, they try getting the best product or service they can at or below that budget. You want the lowest price possible with 700 being just a guideline, now I understand you.

You're right, no one benchmarks vmware but, you can get an idea of performance by how it does in other single and multithreaded programs as well as synthetics.

I have used vmware and can say cpu and ram is the most important. I'd still recommend SB as it gets more performance BUT since I now understand you just want the lower price and not best price/performance, I will see how low I can go with an amd build.
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April 24, 2011 1:06:50 AM
April 24, 2011 1:08:32 AM

thats ok k1114 I think you missed the point again. I think I have enough information though between this and other posts.

edit posted as you posted last. That looks good. Let me just clairify I don't want lowest price possible.

That looks good since there was no difference in performance you didn't add it I appreciate it. That does help me alot thank you very much.

Yes Military Class Component MOBO awesome I don't know how I missed that thanks!
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April 24, 2011 1:17:28 AM

When someone wants to buy a computer they either want the lowest price that performs well for their needs or they have a set budget and want the best performance per price at that budget. In either case I do not skimp on quality, either it's good or I won't suggest it. This is one reason I use the words "lower priced" rather than cheap; cheap=crap, to me.

The military class thing is just marketing, other boards are just as good quality.
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April 24, 2011 1:24:35 AM

Based on the this post that was suggesting military class (http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/302785-31-heat-energy... ) that is why I was excited. I really do appreciate the help I thought you were saying I just wanted the cheapest possible. I agree SB would be cooler ,but I don't know jack about e3,e4,e5 etc etc so i don't know which would be best for my needs. I went for the 95w AMD since I knew those dont get as hot. Thanks alot this has really helped as I hope to order sometime next week
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April 24, 2011 4:29:56 AM

MRHTOAD76 said:
If I add the hdd back and the ram that puts it to $750 and doesn't explain if I need a $140 GPU for light gaming. It doesn't explain why we are comparing a $100 cpu to a $200 cpu and it seems like only 1 person read what I was trying to accomplish.

So I guess I'm switching to an Antec Power Supply

ASUS M4A87TD/USB3 AM3 AMD 870 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 AMD Motherboard Combo
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz Socket AM3 125W Price $238.98
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1066 (PC3 8500) Price $ 79.99
Seagate Barracuda ST3500413AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 6.0Gb/s Price $ 49.99
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Price $ 54.99
COOLER MASTER HAF 912 RC-912-KKN1 Black SECC $10 mail in rebate Price $ 59.99 -10
Antec NEO ECO 620W TX12V v2.3 Price $ 69.99
COOLER MASTER Intel Core i5 compatible GeminII S RR-CCH-PBU1-GP Price $ 39.99
Lite On DVD Burner Price $ 19.99
MSI R5670-PMD1G OC Radeon HD 5670 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Price $ $94.99 -30 Final ($64.99)
Radeon 5670 GPU from article Best PCI Express (PCIe) Card For $80
(http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card-...)
Shipping around $20.00

and final price $730 with $40 mail in rebates.


Nothing wrong with your build as above. the GPU you selected will be fine for your uses at 1280x1024.
my post before was just to give you am INTEL CPU option. you are on the right track in your mind set. when we suggest configurations to people we try to squeeze every $ worth of performance out of the build (its just our nature). The GPU suggestions are just that, suggestions. the more powerful the GPU you get now the longer it will continue to serve your needs before you have to upgrade. especially if you upgrade to a wide screen monitor. I agree you do not need a $140 GPU for your current needs. right now there is a big performance gap in the current GPU's between $65 - $120. its like the GPU dead zone at that price point. when we see a GPU that is on the high side of the gap (HD 5770) offered at $100 we always recommend the upgrade. +$40 buys a little future proofing. now the HD 5850 is certainly another step up from the HD 5770 for more $. like I said I almost never recommend any GPU under a HD 5770 for any one who thinks the might game, but in your case (1280x1024) you could get by with the HD 5670 just fine.

BTW the PSU you selected is a good one, but you need to have your own power cord for it. I'm sure you have one laying around somewhere. just thought I would mention it.

JD
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