$2400 Gaming Build?

[RedAwsomeness]

I'm doing this for my friend because he is to lazy to sign up for an account here.

He would like to know what is the best build he could possibly get for gaming for $2400. He isn't using multiple monitors, so he doesn't need crossfirex or any of that stuff. But an awesome graphics card and such would be great.

He can only use a Visa Credit Card as a payment, so if the website that is selling the parts accepts that, that would be awesome.

Thanks

 

[Why_Me]

Here ya go. Dual factory over clocked gtx 560's in SLI, etc... if you do anything, check out that monitor. With a budget like your friend has it would be a bloody shame to not get that monitor. It's the #1 gaming monitor out there atm. A 120hz 2ms LED Nvidia 3D ready.

http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-Advanced-Tower-SuperSpeed/dp/B001EPUQAE/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1303609378&sr=1-2 $154.82 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping
Cooler Master HAF 932 Advanced Full Tower Case with SuperSpeed USB 3.0 - (RC-932-KKN5-GP)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817207003 $129.99 - $109.99 after mail-in rebate
XFX Black Edition P1-750B-CAG9 750W ATX12V v2.2 / ESP12V v2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS SILVER Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.632609 $264.98
GIGABYTE GA-P67A-UD4-B3 LGA 1155 Intel P67 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
G.SKILL Sniper Low Voltage Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-12800CL9D-8GBSR2

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.632379 $464.98 $20.00 Mail-In Rebate Price After Mail-In Rebate(s): $444.98 FREE SHIPPING
MSI N560GTX-TI Twin Frozr II/OC GeForce GTX 560 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card
Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core Desktop Processor BX80623I52500K

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127565 $249.99 (Before $20.00 Mail-In Rebate) FREE SHIPPING
MSI N560GTX-TI Twin Frozr II/OC GeForce GTX 560 Ti (Fermi) 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103089 $59.99
COOLER MASTER V6 GT RR-V6GT-22PK-R1 120mm DynaLoop CPU Cooler w/ Universal bracket & Dual Fan

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148348 $199.99 FREE SHIPPING
Crucial RealSSD C300 CTFDDAC128MAG-1G1 2.5" 128GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001U3S5S0/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1JE5AGVBF22SE9XZXM6J&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846 $60.85 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping
Samsung 1 TB Spinpoint 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.5 inch Bulk/OEM Desktop Hard Drive HD103SJ

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827118039 $23.99 FREE SHIPPING
Sony Optiarc Black 24X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 12X DVD+R DL 24X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA CD/DVD Burner - OEM

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116754 $94.99 FREE SHIPPING
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 1-Pack for System Builders - OEM

Total: $1,704.57 *not including shipping, rebates, etc...

http://www.frys.com/product/6417522?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG $399.99
BEN Q XL2410T 23.6" LED Backlit Monitor (NVIDIA 3D Ready)

http://www.benq.us/products/product_detail.cfm?product=1775&pltag=49&ptag=104 <---- more info, specs, and pics on that monitor

http://apcmag.com/first-look-the-benq-xl2410t-.htm <--- review on that monitor

http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-920-002232-Gaming-Keyboard-G110/dp/B002RRLQIO/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1303611258&sr=1-1 $61.99 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping
Logitech Gaming Keyboard G110

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboard/devices/5902 <---- more info, specs, and pics of that keyboard

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002J9GDXI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER $54.59 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping
Logitech G500 Programmable Gaming Mouse

http://www.logitech.com/en-us/mice-pointers/mice/devices/5750 <---- more info, specs, and pics of that mouse

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-PC-350-Collapsible-Microphone/dp/B0012XFDWO/ref=sr_1_3?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1303612524&sr=1-3 $179.95
Sennheiser PC 350 Collapsible Gaming Headset with Vol Control & Microphone Mute

http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?category_id=18&product_id=3037 <--- more info and specs on that CM HAF case

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119160 <--- Same case @ newegg

 

[mdd1963]

Twin 560's in SLI do indeed turn out some impressive framerates, but, in that pricerange, so do a pair of Crossfired 6950s...

A single GTX560 does surprisingly well with monitors of normal size for 90% of most folks...

 

[JackNaylorPE]

He isn't using multiple monitors, so he doesn't need crossfirex or any of that stuff. But an awesome graphics card and such would be great.)

Heard of Metro 2033 ? One 560 (900Mhz) gets 26 fps in Metro .... in SLI get 49

Didn't say what ya don't need. KB ? .... Mouse ??? .... Assuming ya have monitor given the statement made

$2250 total

Case - $155 - Antec DF-85 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129087
Case Fan - $15 - Antec Red 120 mm http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835209013
PSU - $110 - Antec CP-850 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371024
MoBo - $260 - ASUS P8P67 WS Revolution http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131694
CPU - $315 - Intel Core i5-2600K http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115070
Cooler - $40 - Scythe SCMG 2100 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185142
TIM - $5 - Shin Etsu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835150080
RAM - $145 - (2 x 4GB) Mushkin CAS 7 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226178
GFX - $225 - Asus GTX 560 (900MHz) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121424&cm_re=560_ti-_-14-121-424-_-Product
GFX - $225 - Same
HD - $65 - Spinpoint F3 1TB 7200 rpm http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152185
SSD - $300 - OCZ Vertex 3 2.5" 120GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227706
DVD Writer - $90 - Plextor BR Combo Drive w/ LS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827249055
Card Reader $50 55 in 1 Card Reader http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820314001
OS - $100 - Win 7-64 Pro OEM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116754
Monitor - - Acer GD235H23.6" 2ms 120Hz http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009222
Keyboard - $100 - Logitech G510 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126100
Mouse - $50 - Logitech G500 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104318

The why's .....

Case / PSU ($265) - The case is roomy w/ great air flow, superb cable routing, CPU cutout which allows installation / removal of the largest of air coolers w/o removing MoBo from case, inlet air filters, swappable storage bays (do not need to plug / unplug cables the remove storage devices), hot swappable external 2.5" storage bay and it fits CPX form factor PSU's. PSU is 10.0 performance rated per jonnyguru . Best alternative would be HAF-X w/ XFX Black Edition 850 ($310) .... with twin 560's at 900MHz, you'd be OK w/ a 750 but to provide voltage stability at high CPU OC's and GFX card OC's to 1000MHz, etxtra 100 watt headroom will come in handy.

MoBo / CPU - You have the budget so why skimp ? Get a MoBo capable of x16 x16 to GFX slots and top of the line CPU. This article explains why:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/p67-gaming-3-way-sli-three-card-crossfire,2910-17.html

Best alternative is Gigabyte UD7, compare the two here:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/3795/asus_p8p67_ws_revolution_intel_p67_express_motherboard/index.html

Cooler / TIM - You can buy better coolers but they not needed for SB. This cooler topped the venerable Megahalems and the Mega beats the Hyper 212 by 7C.
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=292&Itemid=62&limit=1&limitstart=13

Other coolers to consider:

-Self Contained Watewr Coolers like Corsair H50/H70 and Antec 620/920 - 620 is a reasonable choice and great performer compared to the H50. H70 and 920 are a bit loud. However, cooler will hit the top GFX card in a MoBo w/ 3 PCI-E GFX slots

-Coolermaster V6 GT - very good cooler but also very very loud

-Megahalems - Best mounting system I ever used, but it gets beat by Mugen 2 at half the price.

- Thermalright Venemous X / Silver Arrow - Silver Arrow is best performer I have seen as yet and is extremely quiet w/ stock fans.....in fact it is inaudible in the last build I did. If you don't mind a little noise, with a single Delta 113 fan, it beats the Venemous by 2.5C, Kühler 620 by 2.9C, Super Mega by 3.6C and Coolermaster V6 by 3.7C. The Silver Arrow however is a 7" cube ... you have to rotate it by 90 degrees to mount with this MoBo / GFX combo.

RAM - THG just did an article which showed fast RAM doesn't mean much if ya system is bottlenecked by the GFX card. But this system will not be bottlenecked by the GFX cards. It increases system cost by 2% for CAS 7 RAM over CAS 9 .... If ya need to think about that, save the $50 and get these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145324

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2792/12

22.3 % (SLI) increase in minimum frame rated w/ C6 instead of C8 in Far Cry 2
18% (single card) / 5% (SLI) increase in minimum frame rated w/ C6 instead of C8 in Dawn of war
15% (single card) / 5% (SLI) increase in minimum frame rated w/ C6 instead of C8 in World in Conflict

GFX Cards - Somehow THG failed to notice this card in their monthly roundup but it rocks:

Guru3D uses the following games in their test suite, COD-MW, Bad Company 2, Dirt 2, Far Cry 2, Metro 2033, Dawn of Discovery, Crysis Warhead. Total fps (summing fps in each game @ 1920 x 1200) for the various options in parenthesis (single card / SL or CF) are tabulated below along with their cost in dollars per frame single card - CF or SLI. Costs are based upon lowest newegg price from major brand (Asus, Gigabyte, MSI or EVGA):

$155.00 460-768 MB (314/592) $0.49 - $0.52
$155.00 6850 (371/634) $0.42 - $0.49
$190.00 6870 (434/701) $0.44 - $0.54
$250.00 6950 (479/751) $0.52 - $0.67
$285.00 6950 Frozr OC (484/759) $0.59 - $0.75
$240.00 560 Ti (455/792) $0.53 - $0.61
$335.00 6970 (526/825) $0.64 - $0.81
$225.00 560 Ti - 900 Mhz (495/862) $0.45 - $0.52
$335.00 570 (524/873) $0.64 - $0.77
$500.00 580 (616/953) $0.81 - $1.05
$725.00 6990 (762/903) $0.95 - $1.61
$700.00 590 (881/982) $0.79 - $1.43

HD - Any of these will do....pick one which matches apps your friend uses:

=on&prod[3016]=on&prod[2365]=on]http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-3.5-desktop-hard-drive-charts/compare,1016.html?prod[2777]=on&prod[3016]=on&prod[2365]=on

SSD - Vertex 3 120 GB, nothing else even comes close @ 550 MB/s read, 500 MB/s write. Watch newegg after midnite for new availility postings.

BR Reader / DVD Writer - I have 4 of these ... oldest 2+ years old.

Goodies - Threw Card Reader in for some bling since had mucho budget left

KB / Mouse - Again, most peeps already have, but in case he wants to upgrade

OS - In case he wants to add a monitor or save some bucks, can drop to Home version if ya don't need the features.

Monitor - If he needs one, then I'd drop the bling / KB / Mouse (-$200) and get one of these which will put the cost at exactly $2400:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236104
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009222

 

[Why_Me]

I'm doing this for my friend because he is to lazy to sign up for an account here.

He would like to know what is the best build he could possibly get for gaming for $2400. He isn't using multiple monitors, so he doesn't need crossfirex or any of that stuff. But an awesome graphics card and such would be great.

He can only use a Visa Credit Card as a payment, so if the website that is selling the parts accepts that, that would be awesome.

Thanks

So you don't get totally hosed by getting the wrong information, I am going to show you why a paying extra for a P67 board with a NF 200 bridge is a rip off for peeps who don't plan running tri vid cards.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/p67-gaming-3-way-sli-three-card-crossfire,2910-4.html <---Just one example of why peeps who don't plan on running tri (three) vid cards should not spend the extra $ on a P67 board w/NF200...not unless they enjoy getting hosed for their $$$.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121424 <--- You see this card for $234.99 ? Until/unless you over clock this card even further it is a 830Mhz card, not a 900MHz card.

Now seeing how you haven't read any reviews on these Sandy Bridge cpu's...they run very cool, even when over clocked. In fact these cpu's hit a "ceiling/wall" well before they get close to their temp limits. Just wanted you to know that.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226178 <---- See that RAM? It's 1.65v. It will probably work, but it's not what any of the board manufactures recommend for these boards. Low voltage RAM (1.5v) or less is what is recommended for these boards. It's on all the sites...Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte, MSI, etc... and it's even on the reviews from Toms, Anandtech, Overclockers.net, Guru3d, etc... Again I don't want you to get hosed so I'm giving you the heads up now.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/288?vs=287 <--- 2500K vs 2600K benchmarks. Do you do a lot of professional video editing, CAD, etc.. ? If not and this build is for gaming, spending the extra $100 on the 2600K is another hose job just like a board with the NF 200 bridge. Check the benchmarks out on that link, and then google some more benchmarks and they all say the same. Hyper threading actually hurts more than it helps in regards to gaming. So why pay $100 more on a cpu just to get crappier frame rates ?

And unless you plan on adding ten more h/d's and twenty more case fans to that build, a 750w psu will be enough juice and then some. Google it.

 

[vibhas]

Heard of Metro 2033 ? One 560 (900Mhz) gets 26 fps in Metro .... in SLI get 49

Didn't say what ya don't need. KB ? .... Mouse ??? .... Assuming ya have monitor given the statement made

$2250 total

Case - $155 - Antec DF-85 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129087
Case Fan - $15 - Antec Red 120 mm http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835209013
PSU - $110 - Antec CP-850 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371024
MoBo - $260 - ASUS P8P67 WS Revolution http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131694
CPU - $315 - Intel Core i5-2600K http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115070
Cooler - $40 - Scythe SCMG 2100 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185142
TIM - $5 - Shin Etsu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835150080
RAM - $145 - (2 x 4GB) Mushkin CAS 7 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226178
GFX - $225 - Asus GTX 560 (900MHz) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121424&cm_re=560_ti-_-14-121-424-_-Product
GFX - $225 - Same
HD - $65 - Spinpoint F3 1TB 7200 rpm http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152185
SSD - $300 - OCZ Vertex 3 2.5" 120GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227706
DVD Writer - $90 - Plextor BR Combo Drive w/ LS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827249055
Card Reader $50 55 in 1 Card Reader http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820314001
OS - $100 - Win 7-64 Pro OEM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116754
Monitor - - Acer GD235H23.6" 2ms 120Hz http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009222
Keyboard - $100 - Logitech G510 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126100
Mouse - $50 - Logitech G500 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104318

The why's .....

Case / PSU ($265) - The case is roomy w/ great air flow, superb cable routing, CPU cutout which allows installation / removal of the largest of air coolers w/o removing MoBo from case, inlet air filters, swappable storage bays (do not need to plug / unplug cables the remove storage devices), hot swappable external 2.5" storage bay and it fits CPX form factor PSU's. PSU is 10.0 performance rated per jonnyguru . Best alternative would be HAF-X w/ XFX Black Edition 850 ($310) .... with twin 560's at 900MHz, you'd be OK w/ a 750 but to provide voltage stability at high CPU OC's and GFX card OC's to 1000MHz, etxtra 100 watt headroom will come in handy.

MoBo / CPU - You have the budget so why skimp ? Get a MoBo capable of x16 x16 to GFX slots and top of the line CPU. This article explains why:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/p67-gaming-3-way-sli-three-card-crossfire,2910-17.html

Best alternative is Gigabyte UD7, compare the two here:
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/3795/asus_p8p67_ws_revolution_intel_p67_express_motherboard/index.html

Cooler / TIM - You can buy better coolers but they not needed for SB. This cooler topped the venerable Megahalems and the Mega beats the Hyper 212 by 7C.
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=292&Itemid=62&limit=1&limitstart=13

Other coolers to consider:

-Self Contained Watewr Coolers like Corsair H50/H70 and Antec 620/920 - 620 is a reasonable choice and great performer compared to the H50. H70 and 920 are a bit loud. However, cooler will hit the top GFX card in a MoBo w/ 3 PCI-E GFX slots

-Coolermaster V6 GT - very good cooler but also very very loud

-Megahalems - Best mounting system I ever used, but it gets beat by Mugen 2 at half the price.

- Thermalright Venemous X / Silver Arrow - Silver Arrow is best performer I have seen as yet and is extremely quiet w/ stock fans.....in fact it is inaudible in the last build I did. If you don't mind a little noise, with a single Delta 113 fan, it beats the Venemous by 2.5C, Kühler 620 by 2.9C, Super Mega by 3.6C and Coolermaster V6 by 3.7C. The Silver Arrow however is a 7" cube ... you have to rotate it by 90 degrees to mount with this MoBo / GFX combo.

RAM - THG just did an article which showed fast RAM doesn't mean much if ya system is bottlenecked by the GFX card. But this system will not be bottlenecked by the GFX cards. It increases system cost by 2% for CAS 7 RAM over CAS 9 .... If ya need to think about that, save the $50 and get these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145324

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2792/12

22.3 % (SLI) increase in minimum frame rated w/ C6 instead of C8 in Far Cry 2
18% (single card) / 5% (SLI) increase in minimum frame rated w/ C6 instead of C8 in Dawn of war
15% (single card) / 5% (SLI) increase in minimum frame rated w/ C6 instead of C8 in World in Conflict

GFX Cards - Somehow THG failed to notice this card in their monthly roundup but it rocks:

Guru3D uses the following games in their test suite, COD-MW, Bad Company 2, Dirt 2, Far Cry 2, Metro 2033, Dawn of Discovery, Crysis Warhead. Total fps (summing fps in each game @ 1920 x 1200) for the various options in parenthesis (single card / SL or CF) are tabulated below along with their cost in dollars per frame single card - CF or SLI. Costs are based upon lowest newegg price from major brand (Asus, Gigabyte, MSI or EVGA):

$155.00 460-768 MB (314/592) $0.49 - $0.52
$155.00 6850 (371/634) $0.42 - $0.49
$190.00 6870 (434/701) $0.44 - $0.54
$250.00 6950 (479/751) $0.52 - $0.67
$285.00 6950 Frozr OC (484/759) $0.59 - $0.75
$240.00 560 Ti (455/792) $0.53 - $0.61
$335.00 6970 (526/825) $0.64 - $0.81
$225.00 560 Ti - 900 Mhz (495/862) $0.45 - $0.52
$335.00 570 (524/873) $0.64 - $0.77
$500.00 580 (616/953) $0.81 - $1.05
$725.00 6990 (762/903) $0.95 - $1.61
$700.00 590 (881/982) $0.79 - $1.43

HD - Any of these will do....pick one which matches apps your friend uses:

=on&prod[3016]=on&prod[2365]=on]http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2009-3.5-desktop-hard-drive-charts/compare,1016.html?prod[2777]=on&prod[3016]=on&prod[2365]=on

SSD - Vertex 3 120 GB, nothing else even comes close @ 550 MB/s read, 500 MB/s write. Watch newegg after midnite for new availility postings.

BR Reader / DVD Writer - I have 4 of these ... oldest 2+ years old.

Goodies - Threw Card Reader in for some bling since had mucho budget left

KB / Mouse - Again, most peeps already have, but in case he wants to upgrade

OS - In case he wants to add a monitor or save some bucks, can drop to Home version if ya don't need the features.

Monitor - If he needs one, then I'd drop the bling / KB / Mouse (-$200) and get one of these which will put the cost at exactly $2400:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236104
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009222

While the Price per frame is an admirable thing, the prices are way out of order for the GTX 460 768mb. Its $120 AR at most for the last few months. So it should win that little competition.

I'd really think about getting a 580 @ his budget... starting out with SLI in such an expensive build isn't the best idea from me. No upgradeability, and as 2 580's will make your 2500k/2600k the bottleneck nowadays, its not such a bad idea to start out with 1.