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Just bought a new rig for iBuyPower, need opinion from veterans

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April 25, 2011 2:30:02 AM

I just bought a new rig on iBuyPower and it is my first computer that is not retailer bought. I've never owned a good system and have some knowledge about computers but not much. I wanted to ask some of the computer pros on the forums what they think of my build (mainly for gaming and internet surfing). I am going back to school for digital arts as well so hopefully this rig will help me out in the future with that as well. I know iBuyPower has mixed reviews and everyone says build it yourself but I did price searches of everything I ordered and it seems I only ended up paying an extra $400 including shipping than if I built it myself. Considering I have 3 years warranty on labor and 1 year on parts and have someone build it who knows how since I don't I feel this isn't a bad purchase. Well here is my system, let me know what you think or if there is anything I should know. Thanks in advance!

1 x Case CoolerMaster HAF 922 Gaming Case - Black
0 x Case Lighting None
1 x iBUYPOWER Labs - Noise Reduction Advanced - iBUYPOWER Harmony SRS Sound Reduction System
0 x iBUYPOWER Labs - Internal Expansion None
1 x Processor Intel® Core™ i7-2600K Processor (4x 3.40GHz/8MB L3 Cache)
1 x iBUYPOWER PowerDrive PowerDrive Level 2 - Up to 20% Overclocking
1 x Processor Cooling Asetek 550LC Liquid CPU Cooling System (Intel) - Enermax Dual Silent High Performance Fan Upgrade (Push-Pull Airflow)
1 x Memory 8 GB [2 GB X4] DDR3-1600 Memory Module - Corsair or Major Brand
1 x Video Card NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti - 1GB - EVGA Superclocked - Core: 900MHz - Single Card
1 x Video Card Brand Major Brand Powered by ATI or NVIDIA
1 x Free Stuff [Free Game Download] - Total War: Shogun 2 - Free with Purchase of Intel Core i7 Processor
1 x Motherboard [SLI] ASUS Sabertooth P67 -- Thermal Armor Airflow design
1 x Power Supply 1000 Watt -- Corsair CMPSU-1000HX
1 x Primary Hard Drive 2 TB HARD DRIVE -- 64M Cache, 7200 RPM, 6.0Gb/s - Single Drive
0 x Data Hard Drive None
1 x Optical Drive 24X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive - [Lightscribe Technology] Black
0 x 2nd Optical Drive None
0 x Flash Media Reader / Writer None
1 x Meter Display NZXT Sentry 2 Touch Screen Fan Controller & Temperature Display
0 x USB Expansion None
1 x Sound Card 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard
1 x Network Card Killer 2100 Gaming Network Card
1 x Operating System Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium + Office Starter 2010 (Includes basic versions of Word and Excel) - 64-Bit
1 x Keyboard Logitech Deluxe Keyboard - Black
1 x Mouse iBUYPOWER Internet Mouse
1 x Monitor 22" LCD 1680x1050 -- Sceptre X220T-Naga
0 x 2nd Monitor None
1 x Speaker System iBUYPOWER 2.1 Channel Stereo Super Bass Subwoofer Speaker System
0 x Headset None
0 x Video Camera None
1 x Advanced Build Options iBUYPOWER Specialized Advanced Packaging System - Protect your investment during transportation!
1 x Advanced Build Options Tuniq TX-2 High Performance Thermal Compound - The best interface between your CPU and the heatsinks
1 x Advanced Build Options Professional wiring for all cables inside the system tower - Achieve exceptional airflow in your chassis
1 x Advanced Build Options Professional wiring for all cables inside the system tower - Basic Pro Wiring
April 25, 2011 2:44:55 AM

Looks good....how much did ya pay for it?

PSU looks like mega overkill, network gaming card is pretty lols. I also have no idea what a "Sound Card 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard " is. Is it a sound card or is it onboard, it can't be both. The build starts off hardcore but then gets low end. I've never seen that mouse but it sounds cheap, LCD really should be at 1920x1080.

I do like the main parts, Case/CPU/GPU/mobo. I do worry a little when they say "or major brand"
April 25, 2011 2:57:22 AM

I paid $2,400 with tax and shipping.

I thought the PSU might be overdoing it, but I was super scared of not providing enough juice.

Why is the network gaming card lols? Not necessary?

I believe it is on board sound chip, but I have an X-Fi Fatality Championship card that I will be taking out of my old computer and installing (hopefully without doing anything stupid haha).

The mouse is cheap but I think it will be ok until I buy one separately.

I figured I would hear that about the LCD, but do you think it will look fine with the one I got?

"or major brand" scares me too...

Thank you for the feedback!
Related resources
April 25, 2011 3:03:28 AM

Oh I heard the Asus Sabertooth mobos had some issue when they first came out, are they still selling the defective versions even today?

Also, with the sound card I will be installing, if I don't have the software that came with it anymore will I have issues with the installation?
April 25, 2011 3:05:42 AM

"Sound Card 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard " = the sound included on the motherboard. Be sure to disable it in the BIOS and uninstall the drivers for it before installing the SoundBlaster. Go to Creative's site to get the latest drivers for the sound card.

1 x Monitor 22" LCD 1680x1050 -- Sceptre X220T-Naga - That's a cheap one. Never heard of Sceptre.
April 25, 2011 3:08:38 AM

The time to ask for advice is BEFORE you buy it when there is still time to make some changes.

Here are some of my thoughts:
1) 2600K is rarely right, particularly for gaming. The extra $100 paid compared to the 2500K is better used elsewhere, perhaps for a better graphics card.

2) Puny monitor. Get a 24" 1920 x 1200 or 1080P display.

3) KillerNIC card is a waste; the motherboard integrated lan is just as good.

4) A 20% overclock does not need liquid cooling. A $30 cm hyper212 will do the job, and you avoid any potential liquid cooling issues.

5) GTX560ti is good, but the weak component for a gaming system using a 2500K.

6) PSU is good, but overkill. a corsair 650w unit can run a GTX580

7) No SSD on a $2400 system??
April 25, 2011 3:14:08 AM

Is it super easy to disable the onboard sound drivers?

Yea I think I got a cheapo display but hopefully it looks alright
April 25, 2011 3:16:25 AM

Yea I shoulda checked first then bought, I too anxious I guess. I think they have a 30 day money back guarantee though, probably with a restocking fee though ugh. Did I mess up super noob style though?
April 25, 2011 3:18:25 AM

baybiz85 said:
Is it super easy to disable the onboard sound drivers?


Yes. It is an option on one of the BIOS screens. Be sure to download and read the full manual. It and the drivers are also on the included DVD. The manual explains the BIOS settings.
April 25, 2011 3:22:59 AM

Ok thanks Rick, appreciate your help man.
April 25, 2011 3:26:18 AM

baybiz85 said:
Yea I shoulda checked first then bought, I too anxious I guess. I think they have a 30 day money back guarantee though, probably with a restocking fee though ugh. Did I mess up super noob style though?


Short answer is yes =D.

Hopefully you can still cancel your order though. Go do that fast if you can.

I'll throw up a better build for ~$1,800 in a few.
April 25, 2011 3:27:56 AM

Oh, and ibuypower warranty is less than useless. You'll spend more time and money shipping it back and forth to them, than fixing it yourself. Its about on par with getting help from Geek Squad.
April 25, 2011 3:31:49 AM

Yikes, I hate Geek Squad. Ok I'll go try to cancel my order now then.

Best solution

April 25, 2011 4:08:02 AM
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OK here's a full build.

I'm assuming you'll be using this for graphic design, and I'm assuming you'll be using CS5 like most people. Let em know if either of these is wrongs. Based on that, an i7-2600k, CUDA GPU and 16GB of RAM are worth it for you.

If you only want to use this for gaming, then you can drop it down to 8gb of RAM and an i5-2500k instead.

OPtical
LG $21
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Case
CM 690II advanced $90 w/ $10 MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
This is one of the best cases for under $100. However, if you want something flashier or nice aluminum or something there are other possibilities. Other good cases are the HAF 922 and antec 902. Nice aluminum cases include the Silverstone FT02 and Corsair 650D.
I generally don't recommend water cooling as cheap water is worse than big air. A full custom loop is good, but honestly, really not needed for your usage.

RAM kit 1
Ripjaw 8gb ddr3 1600 cas 8 $90 w/ promo code
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Ram kit 2+ Mobo
Same RAM kit as above + Ga P67A-UD4 $245
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

This combo stacks with the RAM promo code, so it's actually $30 off the list combo price, so $65 total saving on the combo.

CPU + GPU
i7-2600k + PNY GTX 570 $630 w/ $30 MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

PSU + HD
Corsair AX 750 + Spinpoint F3 1tB $215 w/ $20 MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...
The best 750W PSU and one of the best HD's.

SSD
Intel 320 120gb $210 w/ promo code
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

I go with Intel for the reliability, failure rate for Intel drives is much lower than other companies. Yes SF 1200 and 2000 drives are faster on paper, but in practice the difference isn't that big as anandtech has demonstrated. In addition, sequential read/write is not important for an OS drive. You're not exactly constantly moving big files on and off a boot drive.

HSF
Scythe Mugen 2 $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Probably best bang for buck out there for HSF. A bit of a pain to attach though. It will work with those ripjaw kits, though has issues with many tall heatspreader RAM kits.

OS
win 7 64 bit $100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Total including shipping: $1665
After rebates: $1605


For monitor
Dell Ultrasharp 21.5" 1080p IPS monitor
$230 after shipping
http://www.provantage.com/dell-468-7485~7DELL0L9.htm

For graphic design you'll want an IPS monitor. Is also fine for gaming. Response time of 8ms for an IPS is =/= 8ms for TN panel. I can explain if you really want me to, but suffice to say monitor is fine for gaming as well.

Puts grand total at $1835 after shipping and rebates.
Feel free to grab speakers, mouse and KB of your choice. I can give you recs, but for gaming peripherals it's really a personal preference decision.
April 25, 2011 4:16:10 AM

Best answer selected by BayBiz85.
April 25, 2011 4:17:31 AM

banthracis said:
OK here's a full build.

I'm assuming you'll be using this for graphic design, and I'm assuming you'll be using CS5 like most people. Let em know if either of these is wrongs. Based on that, an i7-2600k, CUDA GPU and 16GB of RAM are worth it for you.

If you only want to use this for gaming, then you can drop it down to 8gb of RAM and an i5-2500k instead.

OPtical
LG $21
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Case
CM 690II advanced $90 w/ $10 MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
This is one of the best cases for under $100. However, if you want something flashier or nice aluminum or something there are other possibilities. Other good cases are the HAF 922 and antec 902. Nice aluminum cases include the Silverstone FT02 and Corsair 650D.
I generally don't recommend water cooling as cheap water is worse than big air. A full custom loop is good, but honestly, really not needed for your usage.

RAM kit 1
Ripjaw 8gb ddr3 1600 cas 8 $90 w/ promo code
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Ram kit 2+ Mobo
Same RAM kit as above + Ga P67A-UD4 $245
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

This combo stacks with the RAM promo code, so it's actually $30 off the list combo price, so $65 total saving on the combo.

CPU + GPU
i7-2600k + PNY GTX 570 $630 w/ $30 MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

PSU + HD
Corsair AX 750 + Spinpoint F3 1tB $215 w/ $20 MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...
The best 750W PSU and one of the best HD's.

SSD
Intel 320 120gb $210 w/ promo code
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

I go with Intel for the reliability, failure rate for Intel drives is much lower than other companies. Yes SF 1200 and 2000 drives are faster on paper, but in practice the difference isn't that big as anandtech has demonstrated. In addition, sequential read/write is not important for an OS drive. You're not exactly constantly moving big files on and off a boot drive.

HSF
Scythe Mugen 2 $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
Probably best bang for buck out there for HSF. A bit of a pain to attach though. It will work with those ripjaw kits, though has issues with many tall heatspreader RAM kits.

OS
win 7 64 bit $100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Total including shipping: $1665
After rebates: $1605


For monitor
Dell Ultrasharp 21.5" 1080p IPS monitor
$230 after shipping
http://www.provantage.com/dell-468-7485~7DELL0L9.htm

For graphic design you'll want an IPS monitor. Is also fine for gaming. Response time of 8ms for an IPS is =/= 8ms for TN panel. I can explain if you really want me to, but suffice to say monitor is fine for gaming as well.

Puts grand total at $1835 after shipping and rebates.
Feel free to grab speakers, mouse and KB of your choice. I can give you recs, but for gaming peripherals it's really a personal preference decision.


WOW, a big THANK YOU to you sir!
April 25, 2011 4:18:55 AM

Oh wait, I have to build this myself though huh. Damn. I feel like I could do it but I am a bit scared to do it.
April 25, 2011 6:59:49 AM

You don't have to build it yourself. Here are two possible builds:

CyberPowerPC Build:

Case: Thermaltake Armor A60 Gaming Mid-Tower Case with SideClick EasySwap and SSD Support [+30]
Extra Case Fan Upgrade: Maximum 120MM Case Cooling Fans for your selected case [+9]
CPU: Intel® Core™ i5-2500K 3.30 GHz 6M Intel Smart Cache LGA1155 (All Venom OC Certified)
Cooling Fan: XtremeGear Liquid Cooling System 120MM Radiator & Fan (Enhanced Cooling Performance + Extreme Silent at 20dBA) (Single Standard 120MM Fan)
Motherboard: * [CrossFireX/SLI] GigaByte GA-P67A-UD4-B3 Intel P67 Chipset DDR3 ATX Mainboard w/ 7.1 HD Audio, GbLAN, USB3.0, 2x SATA-III RAID, 2 Gen2 PCIe, 3 PCIe x1 & 2 PCI [B3 Stepping] [+69]
Memory: 8GB (2GBx4) DDR3/1600MHz Dual Channel Memory Module [+94] (Kingston HyperX [+66])
Video Card: AMD Radeon HD 6950 2GB GDDR5 16X PCIe Video Card [+275] (Major Brand Powered by AMD)
Power Supply Upgrade: * 750 Watts - Corsair CMPSU-750TX 80 Plus Power Supply - Quad SLI Ready [+83]
Hard Drive: 120GB Corsair Force 120 Gaming MLC Solid State Disk [+172] (Single Hard Drive)
Data Hard Drive: 1TB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD [+60] (Single Hard Drive)
Optical Drive: 24X Double Layer Dual Format DVD+-R/+-RW + CD-R/RW Drive (BLACK COLOR)
Sound: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO
Keyboard: Xtreme Gear (Black Color) Multimedia/Internet USB Keyboard
Mouse: XtremeGear Optical USB 3 Buttons Gaming Mouse
Flash Media Reader/Writer: INTERNAL 12in1 Flash Media Reader/Writer (BLACK COLOR)
Operating System: Win7 64-bit Home Pro
Sub-total: $1741

IBuyPower Build:

Case 1 x Antec DF-35 Gaming Case-Black
Processor 1 x Intel® Core™ i5-2500K Processor (4x 3.30GHz/6MB L3 Cache)
Processor Cooling 1 x Asetek 550LC Liquid CPU Cooling System (Intel)-Standard 120mm Fan
Memory 1 x 8 GB [2 GB X4] DDR3-1600 Memory Module-Corsair or Major Brand
Video Card 1 x AMD Radeon HD 6950 - 2GB-Single Card
Motherboard 1 x Gigabyte GA-P67A-UD3-B3
Power Supply 1 x 750 Watt -- Corsair CMPSU-750TX
Primary Hard Drive 1 x 120 GB Corsair Force Series F120 MLC SSD-Single Drive
Data Hard Drive 1 x 1 TB HARD DRIVE -- 64M Cache, 7200 RPM, 6.0Gb/s-Single Drive**FREE Upgrade to 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s Single Drive**
Optical Drive 1 x 24X Sony Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive-Black
Sound Card 1 x 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard
Operating System 1 x Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64
Keyboard 1 x iBUYPOWER USB Keyboard-Black
Mouse 1 x iBUYPOWER Internet Mouse
Subtotal $1,576.00

Neither includes a monitor. You will spend around $200 more than building it yourself.

April 25, 2011 7:46:15 AM

Rick you the man bro, but do I really need an SSD in addition to the HD? Will it be difficult to install programs only to the HD and will the benefits of having the SSD for booting and system programs be that good?
April 25, 2011 9:01:55 AM

In you're price range a SSD will be worth it for what you're doing.

Throw Windows, your design programs, and their swap files on the SSD, and you'll notice a large jump in responsiveness. (Though with design work a SSD with higher write speed than Intel's may prove beneficial as far as using it to house swap/scratch files. (Though with 16GB RAM these shouldn't see any significant use unless you're editing large HD video files)

Overall though, the build banthracis put together is very nice, and has some great combo's deals as well. If you do happen to be doing HD video editing you may need larger storage drives, but it's very easy to add multiple 2, or 3tb hdd's later if you need the space, and they'll just get cheaper.
April 25, 2011 1:54:18 PM

For rendering having an SSD a as scratch disk is nice, so yea worth it.

In general an SSD gives a huge user experience boost, it makes the PC feel fast.

The issue I have with rick's builds are that for graphic design, you're gonna want the i7-2600k, CUDA GPU and extra RAM. Having an sli capable mobo also gives you and upgrade path.

Add the above to one of those builds and an IPS monitor, and you'll end up spending $400 more than building it yourself. It takes about 1 hr to connect everything in a PC and then another 2 or so to cable it nicely. Throw in another hr of actual work doing testing and you're looking at 4 hrs total.

Are you really gonna pay someone $100 /hr connect some wires for you?
April 25, 2011 6:18:44 PM

baybiz85 said:
Rick you the man bro, but do I really need an SSD in addition to the HD? Will it be difficult to install programs only to the HD and will the benefits of having the SSD for booting and system programs be that good?


I don't think so. At the last minute I decided to not get an SSD for my build. I wanted to see how fast the new Western Digital 1T Black drive is first. It is blazingly fast, compared to the old Seagate drive I used in my previous build in 2004. I do not feel the need for an SSD now.

Of course you can still get the 2600K and an Nvidia GPU if you want. You said "mainly for gaming and internet surfing". The 2500K is plenty for gaming.

I looked at IbuyPower and CyberPowerPC, since they both offer quality components, but for me the $200-300 price premium is not worth it only because I have experience building my own systems. I would definitely choose them over Dell, HP, Gateway, et al tho. If you don't want to try and build it yourself, there is nothing wrong with paying them to do so.

You are also paying for a warranty and customer support. If you build it yourself, you also need be able to trouble shoot any problems that arise and then deal with the individual OEM companies (like Gigabyte or Asus for the motherboard) on your own.

Do NOT pay extra to have them overclock it! You can figure that part out for yourself!
April 25, 2011 8:17:26 PM

Ok so I canceled my order and resubmitted one with iBuyPower again and I am very happy that I got all your advice becuz my new system was only $1859 including tax and shipping! Here is the new build:

1 x Case CoolerMaster HAF 922 Gaming Case - Black
0 x Case Lighting None
1 x iBUYPOWER Labs - Noise Reduction Advanced - iBUYPOWER Harmony SRS Sound Reduction System
0 x iBUYPOWER Labs - Internal Expansion None
1 x Processor Intel® Core™ i5-2500K Processor (4x 3.30GHz/6MB L3 Cache)
0 x iBUYPOWER PowerDrive None
1 x Processor Cooling Asetek 550LC Liquid CPU Cooling System (Intel) - Enermax Dual Silent High Performance Fan Upgrade (Push-Pull Airflow)
1 x Memory 8 GB [2 GB X4] DDR3-1600 Memory Module - Corsair or Major Brand
1 x Video Card NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti - 1GB - EVGA Superclocked - Core: 900MHz - Single Card
1 x Video Card Brand Major Brand Powered by ATI or NVIDIA
1 x Motherboard [SLI] ASUS Sabertooth P67 -- Thermal Armor Airflow design
1 x Power Supply 850 Watt -- Corsair CMPSU-850AX
1 x Primary Hard Drive 2 TB HARD DRIVE -- 64M Cache, 7200 RPM, 6.0Gb/s - Single Drive
0 x Data Hard Drive None
1 x Optical Drive 24X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive - [Lightscribe Technology] Black
0 x 2nd Optical Drive None
0 x Flash Media Reader / Writer None
0 x Meter Display None
0 x USB Expansion None
1 x Sound Card 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard
1 x Network Card Onboard LAN Network (Gb or 10/100)
1 x Operating System Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium + Office Starter 2010 (Includes basic versions of Word and Excel) - 64-Bit
April 25, 2011 8:20:09 PM

I'll upgrade to SSD later down the road if I must, but for now I think I downgraded where I needed to without sacrificing power. So happy and iBuyPower was very helpful on the phone and quick with the cancellation and reordering proccess, not sure if they are getting better or if random people are just having a bad day.
April 25, 2011 8:25:19 PM

Much better looking build this time. I'd still recommend building your own though.
Parts for above build are only $1350 on newegg.
April 26, 2011 2:39:11 AM

thanks, I feel really good about this one. I am most definitely doing a step by step build your own for my next rig, whenever that will be. I am going to need some detailed help on OCing my i5 2500k myself though cuz I have no idea how that all works and stay out of BIOS as much as possible.
May 16, 2011 3:54:05 PM

I just ordered a build from ibuypower, and it came about a month ago, no issues, and when they say "or major brand", they must mean major brand, because while the 8gb or DDR3 1600 RAM I ordered in it is not Corsair, it's Mushkin. I also have the 2600k, and it works VERY well for CS5, if your in media and stuff, it's worth the upgrade from the 2500k. Don't diss Ibuypower, it is far cheaper than building your own (which I've done twice), and the customer service is excellent. And the liquid cooling on it with the upgraded fans actually does help, although you should OC yourself. Mine is running at 4.5ghz, at stable tempuratures.
May 16, 2011 4:10:33 PM

? It's always more expensive to get a boutique build than to do a build yourself.
Just price out the parts on newegg, even without combo deals and price shopping and you'll save at least 15% off a boutique build price.

As for service, it depends a lot. Some people have a nice experience, others a pretty bad one. They've improved, but their lifetime rating over at resellerratings is till only 7.62.
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/iBUYPOWER#

Compare that with AVAdirect, Digitial storm or Puget systems, with 9.5, 9.3, and 9.9 lifetime ratings respectively.

In addition, big air beats cheap water every time, cools better and is less noisy. Tom's here has covered it several times already.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/h50-fort120-cogage,...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-h50-fort120...

Granted, they're better than dell, but by no means are they a top boutique company, and they definitely are not cheaper than building yourself.
May 17, 2011 4:50:14 AM

I've done a lot of reading and research and I am really happy with my ibuypower rig. It's very powerful, well built, only $1800, barely more than self built I'd you include all the perks I ordered plus the peace of mind, and the customer service was superb. As long as yer not some impatient kid who doesn't understand that things happen if you interfere too much than everything runs smoothly. No complaints at all and would highly recommend. OCd it myself too and it's running super stable!
!