Does unlocking the 4th core on an Athlon II X3 440 raise its TDP?

RevOne

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I have the Athlon II X3 440, an ASUS M5A78L-M LX mainboard, a CM Hyper TX3, and an Antec Earthwatts EA-650 650W supplying the voltages. The most important thing to note in all this is that the M5A78L-M LX - though an AM3+ "black socket" motherboard - only supports CPU's up to a 95W TDP rating.

I was able to use the ASUS "Core Unlocker" feature the very first time without a hitch. The Athlon II X3 440 was recognized as a Phenom II X4 after the first reboot by the bios, Windows Vista 64-bit, and CPU-Z. Haven't Prime95 tested it yet for true stability.

The Athlon II X3 440 I have has the AADAC code engraved on its heat spreader. As I understand it, this means it's a Propus, because the third letter is a D. The regular Propus' natively have a 95W TDP; so if I unlocked my 4th core anyway, and my processor is a Propus, then technically, should I still be operating at a 95W TDP?

Does this logic seem right to anyone else? Given that my mobo only supports up to a 95W TDP, does unlocking - in any case & under any circumstances - automatically raise the TDP? My individual core temps using both the bios readings and HW Monitor in Windows showed about 32 degrees Celcius with just three cores @ idle; and 36 degrees Celcius with all four enabled, also @ idle. No overclocking has been done... yet ;) I'm just worried that if I leave it unlocked, I will cause damage to my motherboard or severely shorten the life expectancy of my processor.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! :)
 

amdfangirl

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You'll be fine.

As long as you don't overvolt.

The power consumption is directly linked to power consumption.

Prime 95 is a good stability tester, if you go a little over TDP, at worst the computer might freeze, but it is unlikely damage will occur.

If worst comes to worst and it does die, return it to the place you bought it.

If you unlocked the CPU, kept it at stock or lower voltage, you should be fine.

Overclocking is fine, if you don't raise the voltage. Heck, you could probably raise the voltage carefully...

It's not a "OMG you loaded up 1W more than I'm rated for thus I explode situation".

Progression in inability to provide voltage
Stable (start) -> Boots into Windows, but freezes -> Unable to boot into Windows -> Explosion (extreme levels of overvolting, eg. + .4v).
 

RevOne

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It's the Phenom II X4 B40. Can't find online what the TDP rating for that is, though. Well, except for here: http://www.game-debate.com/hardware/index.php?pid=490&cpu=Phenom%20II%20X4%20B40 ; though I don't know how reliable that information is. I don't have an L3 cache, so I know it's definitely a Propus and not the Deneb. Unfortunately, CPU-Z reports C2 stepping, but I wasn't planning for a huge OC.

Well, 3 hours into Prime95 testing with all 4 cores going w/ no OC'ing and no errors reported back yet. Peak temperature so far has been 54 degrees Celcius. I guess we'll see. I'm going to let it go at least 5 hours total.

Thanks for your help everyone :) I just wish I knew for sure if my presumptions were right about it being a 95W even when unlocked because it's based on the Propus, a 95W design.

EDIT: BTW, what's the usual/average burn-in time for Arctic Silver 5?
 

RevOne

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Awesome! :) Thanks for all the info and advice... I don't believe mine has an L3 cache physically present because it's a Propus with the code AADAC. I think it needs to have something like CACYC instead in order to be a Deneb with the L3 cache physically present, but disabled (if what I've read up on it is correct). Still, I'm just happy it unlocked to a quad perfectly (so far). My Vista SP2 64-bit index score was at 5.9; but I haven't applied any updates yet; so I'm wondering if it's locked there, or if it can go higher (is it 6.9 in Vista?)

I'm brand-spanking new to overclocking, so I'll need to read up a bit on the subject before I will feel comfortable actually going in and attempting it. As long as I don't go high enough to need to up voltages (as AMDfangirl suggested), I think I'll be alright and feel comfortable. As for cooling, I have another Cooler Master 80mm case fan coming in the mail as we speak, so hopefully that should allow for a little added security. I'd like to add a second fan to the Hyper TX3 as well. Many, many thanks to everyone for their help on this one. Slowly but surely, I'm learning more and more about this stuff :)
 

RevOne

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I actually do have Windows 7 64-bit also, but I was hasty once I got the system together yesterday and just loaded up Vista :lol: Agreed - I definitely need to upgrade the GPU. But this one only cost me 50 bucks for the meantime just so I could have something in there for a little bit. I was wondering if my PSU could handle anything beyond a GTX 280, though...

EDIT: Would an HD6850 be a good match for my processor?
 

amdfangirl

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If you ended up with a C2, there's a signifgant chance your die could have been a disabled Deneb die. Some people reported Deneb based Athlon II X3s... idk, be happy with what you got for free :D.
 

RevOne

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Interesting... thanks amdfangirl :) Would there be any specific steps I would need to take to attempt to unlock the L3 (assuming it's present) other than using the Core Unlocker feature? To your knowledge, should it have theoretically (automatically) unlocked when I enabled the fourth core? I can't seem to find any information on just unlocking a hidden L3 cache. Most posts and info I am finding pertains specifically to getting that 4th core enabled. If it isn't possible, I wouldn't be upset at all about it. Like you stated, I am very happy with ending up being lucky enough to get a stable, working quad-core processor for all of $45 USD shipped. :)

Here's where I got my info about the processor I have being a Propus w/ no L3 present: http://www.insidehw.com/Reviews/CPU/Athlon-II-X3-440-A-Three-Headed-Dragon.html ; & here: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/260941-29-unlocked-athlon-cache-help#t1868209 .
 

amdfangirl

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I don't know if what I heard was rumour or fact, but it would be logical for AMD to disable Deneb die with possible L3 defects as an Athlon II X3.

Probably more likely as a Athlon II X4. AMD isn't the type of company to waste dies, tbh.

The honest answer is I have no idea. So your best bet is to take what you can get and be happy :). No point spending hours trying to figure it out if it turns out a Propus.

(Dodgy) article about Athlon II X4 Deneb: http://www.siliconmadness.com/2009/08/some-athlon-ii-x4-are-deneb-based.html

From what I gather, either it works or it doesn't...
 

RevOne

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Good article... Thanks! It would have been an even better deal if I had lucked out and gotten one of the Deneb-based Athlon II X3's :) From what I've been reading, if you can find one with the code CACYC on it, you're in luck and it'll most likely be a Deneb with a disabled core and available L3 cache. Whether it works or not when someone with one of these goes to attempt to unlock either appears to be a total crap shoot in itself. Since mine has the code AADAC embedded on it, it appears that these are the Propus-based ones with no L3 cache at all. Even so, unlocking the fourth core and the chances of it being usable/stable isn't always guaranteed with these either; so I was real fortunate that I was able to get one with a disabled, but good working 4th core. I can notice a significant performance difference between leaving it as a triple-core and when I unlock it to a quad. I am real happy about this... :D

Well, I guess I'm pretty much settled on the idea that even with the fourth core active, the processor is still rated as a 95W TDP CPU. All the information I've found points to the Propus coming in either a 45W or 95W variant; and my guess is that the one I have is derived from the latter. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlon_II#Propus_.2845_nm_SOI_with_immersion_lithography.29 (not the most reliable source, I know). This is also great news, as my motherboard only supports up to 95W TDP processors; so I get a nice performance gain, while remaining within the manufacturer's optimal operating parameters. I also did try a little OC'ing. I got it up to 3.45 GHz, but I didn't like the temps that were being reported back in HW Monitor (62 degrees Celcius - and rising - after only running Prime95 for almost 10 minutes). I can't get readings for individual cores anymore because unlocking fudges this feature up in the bios for whatever reason when all four cores are active. So, I just brought it back down to 3.0GHz and left it there until I could figure out if there's a better (or right) way to overclock this thing. I'm completely new to OC'ing, and all I did was set it to 15x 3000 for the multiplier and I think it was 240 for the FSB. Like I said, I have no idea what I'm doing, so in order to feel comfortable, I just reverted it back to stock with the fourth core enabled until I can read up more about how to OC properly.
 

RevOne

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Do you mean that I should uninstall the cooler, clean the copper contact base and the CPU's heat spreader, then reapply a fresh application of thermal paste? I used the AS5 this time and not the paste that came with the HyperTX3. Should either one be better than the other or would it really make that much of a difference at all?

I'll probably have to wait a little bit to save up enough to put towards a new GPU. I was at first going to shell out the cash for a used GTX280, but after reading many reviews and scouring through the benchmarks, I don't think it would really be worth it to do anything less than at least a GTX460 or HD6850. Idealistically, I'd settle for either a GTX470 or HD6870. Is there a good chance that a bottleneck would be created by pairing any one of those cards with my CPU; even when it's overclocked and unlocked to a quad?
 

RevOne

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I'm beginning to wonder: Did I mount the Hyper TX3 cooler in the wrong direction? I have the fan facing the front of the case. I thought that it would be intaking dead air from the front, blowing air through the heatsink part, then out to the rear mounted case fan. However, if I (carefully) put my hand inside the case, it feels like there's more airflow between the front of the fan and the hard drive cage than there is between the back of the cooler and the rear mounted fan. Right now, I find that I'm still topping out at 55 degrees Celcius (no higher thankfully) after a few hours of Prime95 testing. I want to get it as low as I possibly can, and until I do, I'm afraid to even attempt OC'ing at all. Here's a pic:
http://imageshack.us/f/402/picture93u.jpg/

I'm also going to be removing the bottom optical drive from the bottom 5.25" bay, and installing one of these to get some fresh air coming in through the front of the case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835230005 . I also haven't yet received the actual SATA DVD-RW DL drive I'll be mounting in the top bay. Those two in the picture are just left over IDE drives from what was in the case before, but my mobo doesn't have IDE connectors/controllers. Once I have the new SATA drive and that drive bay fan thingee, the build will be done (except for the new GFX card).
 

yummerzzz

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If you look in the manual, it doesn't matter which direction the actual heat-sink is facing, but the fan, should be on the right side, which you have it, with the silver "CoolerMaster" facing to the right, I actually have same motherboard, and Cooler you do, and queried the same thing.

That is interesting about the TDP though, I wonder what my Phenom(Didn't unlock QQ) is pulling from the 95W socket, and which Zambezi processors will be 95W, either way, I was only keeping this processor as a place-holder for BD, and I'm going to sell it, and buy a BD anyway.
 

RevOne

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Thanks, Yummerzzz :) That's exactly how I have it installed (just as you described it and how it looks in the manual). In the manual, it shows a single fan configuration with the fan on the side of the DIMM slots (you can add second fan if you want to. which would be put on the left side or "back" of the main cooler unit).

I'm also hoping that BD processors will come in decent 95W variations, as well. Right now, I can't even use the more popular Phenom II X4's (like the 955 or 965 BE). I can put in at least a 960, though, which is nice. Using any X6's with this mobo seems to only allow up to the 2.8GHz CPU's in that class, I believe. So hopefully, AMD will be striving to keep the TDP's nice and low for BD.

@malmental I'm confused, now :lol: Anyhow, the LED fan is blowing air out of the back of the case as it's supposed to. The 5.25" drive bay cooler is only so I can get some intake with this case. It's an mATX, with absolutely no room for addons. The drive bay cooler would at least bring some filtered air into the case, I was hoping anyway (all the fans on everything else - the GPU, CPU, and PSU all expel air from the case). I could also then mount my HDD to the drive bay cooler, remove the HDD cage that's in there right now, and custom mount a small fan in the front. I actually have 2 extra 80mm Cooler Master fans that are not being used, but they both have 4-pin connectors and the mobo only has a single 4-pin header and one 3-pin header, which are both already being occupied by the CPU cooler and rear case fan. As for the thermal paste, I actually didn't use the one that came with the Hyper TX3, but instead applied some Arctic Silver 5 I purchased separately. I'm thinking you may be right; I may have overdone the application...

EDIT: This is what it looks like with the side panel on: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/picture62v.jpg/ . It's getting some air into it, but these ducts mostly help with getting hot air out of the case, as when I put my hands over them, I can feel air being pushed out. I was wishing I could put one of my CM 92mm fans over the square duct, but the Hyper TX3 sits right behind this opening; with not enough room for a fan to be mounted to the side panel.
 

RevOne

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the 5.25 blows out not in ot at least that's what mine did...
you might want to check on that one.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m529/malmental/IMG-20110803-00003.jpg
I have some re-wiring to do, swapping to a modular PSU.
my heatsink is low-pro so it blows straight up, I have 5 x 120mm fans, 3 controlled by fan controller
and the other two are motherboard controlled not including heatsink/fan.
the clear side panel doesn't have a fan and the vents create a 'draw-in' effect.

That's a sweet case (Antec Hundred series?)... That's what I needed from the start - a modular PSU. I had to stuff all the unused wires from the EA-650 into that empty bay between the optical drive cage and the HDD cage. I originally was going to install a CM GeminII S as a cooler - which is also low profile; but I was worried it might interfere with how tall my Corsair Dominator RAM is because of their heatsink "fins". Next time I get a new motherboard, I'm definitely going to pay more attention to how many fan headers it has on board.
 

RevOne

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That's not a bad price on that case. I'm eventually going to transfer everything to a new one, so I'll be putting that one on the list of cases to consider. I was actually going to do the Scythe, but it sits even lower than the GeminII S, and when I took measurements, I found that it would definitely sit right on top of my RAM. Was a bit of a bummer... :(

I was also thinking about adding a second fan to the Hyper TX3, but I don't have an additional header to connect it to. Do they make cable splitters (that are safe) for just such a thing? Here's the one I was thinking about getting: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103070 . The Hyper TX3 already came with an extra fan mount.

Okay, so interestingly, CPU-Z is reporting the code name of the unlocked CPU as a Propus, but it rates the Max TDP @ 128W. HW Monitor is saying 142W. I read it somewhere (can't remember where) that when you unlock the disabled cores on any of the eligible processors, it screws with the accuracy of both programs with regard to TDP readings. Should I still be concerned, nonetheless?

And here's where I read that this particular drive bay cooler should be intaking air into the case: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:EELEldARf1EJ:ca.startech.com/media/products/FANDRIVE2BK/PDFs/FANDRIVE2BK.pdf+FANDRIVE2BK&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgR31KynRLM3kD7L9iSF6iEc_fu1Hp7YeXUkYpX5edshJwz_b3awM9Vsp-6iM0K8AozA-1MthUJx5gZVhlymdgzF7VgFztoQYcXZ96uIf3Y7mu9P0phtgc5S-noM7gO6THyJHQx&sig=AHIEtbRDmefEt7DZWaWZmGRwBJtLrH0zIg&pli=1 (requires .PDF viewer) . Does this seem like a reliable source?
 

RevOne

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Sounds good. I'll get on reinstalling the cooler unit as soon as possible and hopefully that ought to yield a little better performance. Then the real fun will come when I can finally do a little OC'ing.

BTW, I really have to give you a huge thanks for all your help & guidance with everything, malmental... This is my first build ever and I was chock full of questions and concerns about a lot of different things, and your assistance has aided greatly in answering many of those questions. I really appreciate it :)
 

RevOne

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Thanks! Okay, so I sold the 9800 GTX for about $57 and bought an HD 4890 for $75 shipped (should have it in about 3 - 5 days). I haven't opened the case and fixed the possible issue with the thermal paste yet. Do you think even if I fix the cooler and overclock the CPU to about 3.4GHz with all four cores running it's going to bottleneck that card? I was really considering selling the CPU and just going with the Phenom II X4 945 (can't get any better than that unless I go with a 95W X6 because of the TDP limit of my board). Thanks in advance! :)
 
I have build 4 PCs around the Athlon x3 CPU all with boards that have a 95W TDP limit and this was my results:
1 Unlocked 4th core stable and L3 Cache but would not overclock at all with the 4th core so now running 3 core + L3 Cache @3.6GHz
2 Unlocked 4th core stable no L3 cache and didn't try to overclock
3 Would not boot with anything unlocked at all
4 Unlocked 4th core not quite stable no L3 cache this was the only C3 one and its now running happily at 3.7GHz 3 cores (with a 4890)
 

RevOne

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Wow... you've got a lot of experience with this chip! :) Many thanks for sharing your results across the board. Looking over your results, I would say mine probably fits the third description best. I did try OC'ing, but mine is a C2 and I didn't feel comfortable with the temps it was reporting back when I began stress testing it @ 3.4 GHz, so I downclocked it back to stock. I'll try reseating my cooler and OC'ing again with the 4th core going. I'm now thinking that I may just leave it at an X3 and OC as high as I can get it stable \with the Hyper TX3.

Does that last one perform really well in games @ 3.7 GHz and the HD4890? I know I most likely won't be able to get mine to clock anywhere near as high because it's a C2, but I'd love to know how this chip performs when paired with this card. Thanks again!
 
All just unlocked was with voltage on Auto which set it to 1.4.
1 to get 3.6GHz needed 1.475V set in bios but HWMonitor reports 1.49
2 all just left on auto I built this for some else and never tried overclocking
3 all just left on auto never tried to overclock as I use this for work and nothing intensive. I did try increasing the voltage to unlock a core but no success
4 was trying for 4GHz but nothing over 3.7 was stable even at 1.5V and 3.7 was still stable with 1.45 which is how its left.
Yes 4 does run all games very well and can Max out all but the most demanding games at 1680 x 1050 res. and most games at 1920 x 1080. All this was using this £34 motherboard http://www.ebuyer.com/221178-asrock-n68c-s-ucc-geforce-7025-socket-am2-vga-out-6-channel-audio-n68c-s-ucc
 

RevOne

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Thanks for the feedback simon12 & malmental :) Okay, so it looks like I ought to be happy with this processor's performance. I'm now thinking I may do a secondary build around this same processor. This one won't be used for gaming as much. Just more for my school coursework and general stuff like web browsing. I may not have luck in getting another X3 440 that unlocks or even at least has C3 stepping, though. I was looking into the Phenom II X4 820 because I can get that one for pretty cheap (even less than I paid for my Athlon II).

Only thing I'm now wondering is if I do get the Phenom II, if I should switch it out for the Athlon II X3 440 and put it in the system with the HD4890 for gaming. I was looking up the Passmark CPU comparison scores, and it looks like the Phenom II X4 820 is only the next AMD processor up from the Phenom II X4 B40 (although it does score significantly higher than just a stock Athlon II X3 440). Another thing is, it's a Deneb and not a Propus, plus I'll possibly gain the extra 2MB of L3 cache on the X4 820 to bring it up to a total of 6MB like the other Phenom II's, and I don't think those scores reflect unlocked CPU's. The other thing is that I know for sure that the X4 820 comes with a lower stock speed of 2.8GHz and is also a C2. I have been reading that people have been able to get it up to 3.5 and higher on average, however; which would make me happy.

Here are the scores: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=AMD+Phenom+II+X4+B40
 

RevOne

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Unfortunately, my mobo can't handle a 955BE or 965BE (due to the 95W TDP limitation). I REALLY wanted one of those; and would have been willing to spend the money for a 965. I would have gotten another board, but I only paid $33 USD for this one brand new/shipped; so I couldn't pass up on the deal. The only thing I'm now hoping is that Bulldozer will ship with some nice 95W or less variants so I can get some use out of this thing in the long run. If not, it won't be such a big deal to replace it, I suppose (at least once in the next year and a half when I graduate from college). The highest X4 I can do on this is the 960T, but those things are so rare (there's ONE listed on ebay right now; and bidding is already up to close to a hundred bucks with like two days left to go). The next step down is the 945, a non-BE, but with a decent enough 3GHz speed, all four cores, and the total 6MB L3 right out of the box.

Originally, I paid $45 USD for the Athlon II shipped. The Phenom II X4 820 is less than thirty. And unfortunately, the Phenom II X4 840 is pretty much the same exact processor I have at the moment (the Athlon II), only it comes stock at 3.2 GHz. It's also not a BE, has no L3 cache, and is also built from the Propus (It's essentially an Athlon II rebranded as a Phenom II).

Do you think the 820 wouldn't be worth it? Like, is it that bad of a performer compared to the other Phenom II's? I guess I just don't want to get it just going based off price alone, and then end up getting it and regretting not having just saved up for at least an 830 or the 945. I saw on that chart that the Athlon II X4 640 can outrun it; and those sometimes have an unlockable L3 on 'em. But still, I would end up paying more than 30 dollars for one of those (not much more if I buy a used one on ebay, but more nonetheless) and there's no guarantee of ANY L3 with that one either. Any guidance? Many, many thanks in advance!

EDIT: Looking at the Bulldozer lineup, it looks like I'll be doing the FX8100. So far that's the best one I've heard about with a 95W TDP. Well... that's IF I decide to keep this board. I'm really tempted by that FX8170...