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Nikon D70 dSLR or Nikon CP8800 Non dSLR (Non-CCD Cleaning!..

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Anonymous
March 3, 2005 8:48:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Hi everyone,

Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to make?

I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.

Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off buying
a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are warned that
it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your camera and, you can
invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to take pictures with, not
to be regularly cleaning it!

I would be grateful for your thoughts/experiences, AND opinions on the
CP8800?

Thank you everyone in anticipation of your help.

Darrell Burnett.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 8:48:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Try www.dpreview.com, and work out what is really important to you - it
really depends on what you want to shoot.

I would be a bit more concerned about the 8800's shutter lag and
general slowness, than the occasional need to clean a CCD. How often
will you shoot moving objects? How often will you change the lens in a
dusty environment? What about noise (high in the 8800)?... etc..
March 3, 2005 10:04:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to make?
>
> I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>
> Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off buying
> a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are warned that
> it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your camera and, you can
> invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to take pictures with, not
> to be regularly cleaning it!
>
> I would be grateful for your thoughts/experiences, AND opinions on the
> CP8800?
>
> Thank you everyone in anticipation of your help.
>
> Darrell Burnett.
>
>


I have a Canon 20D so I can't comment on the two Nikon cameras you have
in mind. I love the quick response of the SLR though. There will have
dust in it but you'd be hard pressed to see any trace of it shows up in
normal pictures. I think a casual user only need to clean it once or
twice a year.
Related resources
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:53:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The dust issue is not as bad as most folk make out. It is just a fact of
life just like dust on an old vinyl record, you take good precautions and
cleaning is minimal, plenty of good products out there to assist. My D70 is
6 months old, I have changed lenses over 5o times at least in that time and
I can only detect one tiny speck of dust which only shows up on a pic of say
a clear blue sky or similar. Even then one can take it for a bird or
somthing. I wait till I have 5 or 6 specks then i'll think about sensor
cleaning. D70comes with Nikon view or Capture which has a clever program to
delete dust digitaly from the sensor- it makes some kind of allowance for
the dust. IMHO The advantages of the D70 system (True SLR) over a psudeo
like the 8800 are immense.
You will not be able to put on a 500 mm lens plus a 2x conv and get an
excellent shot of a pilot 'scratching behind his ear whilst awaiting taxi
instructions at an airport" for example.


"leo" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:jGyVd.335$KD6.200@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to
>> make?
>>
>> I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>>
>> Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off
>> buying a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are
>> warned that it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your
>> camera and, you can invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to
>> take pictures with, not to be regularly cleaning it!
>>
>> I would be grateful for your thoughts/experiences, AND opinions on the
>> CP8800?
>>
>> Thank you everyone in anticipation of your help.
>>
>> Darrell Burnett.
>
>
> I have a Canon 20D so I can't comment on the two Nikon cameras you have in
> mind. I love the quick response of the SLR though. There will have dust in
> it but you'd be hard pressed to see any trace of it shows up in normal
> pictures. I think a casual user only need to clean it once or twice a
> year.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:53:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:53:54 -0000, in rec.photo.digital "Nick Beard"
<nick@superchip.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>cleaning. D70comes with Nikon view or Capture which has a clever program to
>delete dust digitaly from the sensor- it makes some kind of allowance for
>the dust. IMHO

FWIW, the D70 only comes with a demo of Capture which is required to use
the dust reference frame. Also, this is only available when saving toe raw
NEF format, not JPG.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 4:19:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 05:48:40 GMT, <axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to make?
>
>I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>
>Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off buying
>a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are warned that
>it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your camera and, you can
>invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to take pictures with, not
>to be regularly cleaning it!
>
>I would be grateful for your thoughts/experiences, AND opinions on the
>CP8800?
>
>Thank you everyone in anticipation of your help.
>
>Darrell Burnett.
>

My experience below. Not necessarily the "right" way of doing things, nor
the right answer for everyone, but just "for information":

When I started looking for a decent digital camera, I originally started
looking at the 8700 (initially for no other reason than I saw a second-
hand one in a window -- at that time, I hadn't done any research). As I
dug into things, I got to the stage of trying to decide between the 8700
and the 8800 (I liked what the 8800 offered, but it cost more etc.). I was
on the verge of getting one or the other a couple of times, but never got
to the "commit" stage.

Initially, I had not so much "rejected" a dSLR, as never really considered
one -- I wasn't a converting-SLR-film-user, and although I knew the basics,
"playing with lenses and all that hassle" was "too much bother" for what I
wanted.

However, as I put off deciding between the 8700/8800 for longer, I saw more
and more info/advice/dogmatism that led me to begin to consider a dSLR (and
specifically the D70). At first this was "if only..."; but as I read more
of the differences between the top-end (or, at least, 8MP) p&s cameras and
bottom-end (6MP) dSLRs, the D70 became more and more attractive.

In the end, I went for the D70 for a number of reasons, at least a couple
of which are I hope legitimate:

(a) Especially in difficult conditions, six million dSLR pixels should give
better photos than eight million p&s ones;

(b) Although it's not a situation that will crop up that often, I'd
recently been to a Formula 1 training day at Silverstone, and couldn't get
the shots I wanted with a compact film zoom camera nor an old/cheap digital
p&s. While the D70 body isn't "professional sports standard", better
shutter-lag, shot-speed and buffer-speed, plus not having an EVF that
blanks between shots should be of benefit if I am ever in a similar
situation.

(c) The general "expandability" of a dSLR... while I wanted to be able to
take good photographs, I'm certainly not a "keen amateur", nor really is
photography a "major hobby". As such, whatever I chose would likely be my
main camera for several years to come. While I probably won't push against
all the limits, I felt my options would be limited less with the D70.

(d) While sometimes useful/fun, I didn't/don't see the lack of live preview
nor the ability to take video clips as a major drawback.

(e) If I'm honest, it appealed to the "techno-head" in me a bit...

(f) Although I hadn't intended to spend what the D70 cost, I _could_ afford
it (and didn't have to justify the extra to anyone).

(g) I'd seen references to dust, but decided that _in_the_main_ it was one
of those issues where you get the most noise (as in postings to usenet/the
web) from people for whom it has become an obsession, and that for the
(nearly) silent majority, it wasn't too big a problem.

Did I make the right decision (for me)? I think so. I'm very happy with
my D70. I probably don't yet _need_ all the D70 has to offer, but it's
there if I do, and I think I'm less likely to think "if only my camera
could..." than with the 8700/8800.

If I _did_ have to make the choice again, I'd probably not make it between
a 6MP dSLR and an 8MP p&s, as I don't think the extra 2 million p&s pixels
are probably worth it for the price difference. Instead, I'd probably look
for a good 4/5MP p&s. There's less compromise from packing so many pixels
into a small sensor, more portability and a greater price differential.

HTH

Regards,
Graham Holden (g-holden AT dircon DOT co DOT uk)
--
There are 10 types of people in the world;
those that understand binary and those that don't.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 4:19:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Graham Holden wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 05:48:40 GMT, <axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem
>> to make?
>>
>> I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>>
<snippage has occurred>

Graham wrote:

>
> My experience below. Not necessarily the "right" way of doing
> things, nor the right answer for everyone, but just "for information":
>

<snip Graham's cogent summary>

I suggest you take his analysis to heart: he hasn't missed anything of
importance that I can think of.

I will say this: With all the research and generously shared experience
and advice, you may select the wrong camera. The template may fulfill
your intellectual requirements perfectly, but once it is in your hands
you may discover it just plain doesn't fit.

Unless you can find an accommodating local seller, or convince a
well-supplied friend to let you work through his arsenal, it may be a
long, expensive process to arrive at the best compromise.

For my part, I have had to pay the price, but with great joy: the
process has been fun and rewarding and I don't view mistakes or
alternate choices as reflective of character flaws, in contrast to some
folks you might encounter hereabouts.

First significant choice: Nikon CP5700. I liked the idea of a
long-lens/small-package made by a trusted company. It worked fine, and I
even learned to compensate to a degree for the dreaded shutter lag.
Several of the necessary skills and a bunch of luck (and attempts) let
me bring home some good shots among 600 or so from the 2003 Monterey
Historic Automobile Races.
http://www.fototime.com/inv/9CEF2E0211DCF4E

Next try: Added the Nikon CP5000 on recommendation of a professional who
at that time did all his digital work with one. I became addicted to its
19mm equivalent wide angle (with .68x convertor). a good choice, for
sure.

And then: More Pixels Mania. Nikon CP8700, just in time for the 2004
Historics. Once again persistence and luck paid off with a few good
frames.
http://www.fototime.com/inv/83B7FF2C6CE1B1A

Finally, to the dSLR: First and most important, I no longer feel as if I
am fighting the equipment to get the results I know it can return. With
the utility comes responsibility: the photographer can't blame poor
product on the camera. Second, I _know_ the camera-lens combination is
capable of doing the best possible work in its class; once again, no
excuses, what comes out can be top-of-the line. Luck is still a factor,
but definitely a less influential one.
http://www.fototime.com/inv/058FA28C479E2F1

Take into account the images you see are made by a photographer whose
pleasures come as much from the process as from the products. I don't
mind showing rejects and also-rans although I understand and appreciate
the attitude of those who advocate never letting anyone see anything but
your best. I think I am a photographer, just not a totally professional
one.

I still own and enjoy using the non-interchangeable-lens cameras, and
after lugging the 20D and lenses around, especially appreciate their
compact and maneuverable nature. They will put out quality photos, good
enough for almost anyone's needs, and beyond most folks' desires. They
are easy to operate for most folks' purposes, and are capable of
excellence.

The 20D and all dSLRs I know about Increase the likelihood of excellent
output. They do so at the cost of Bulk, Price, Ease-of-use/Convenience,
and Subtlety. You are going to pay, one way or another, for advanced
features and topnotch output.

The reality of lens-changes in the field is probably less onerous in
fact than in psychological terms, excluding the obvious but rare
circumstances (sandstorms, hurricanes, freefall excursions, _etc._). The
one thing I hate about dSLRs is the inevitable moment when the perfect
shot is imminent and the wrong lens is on the body. A quarter-century
ago my gesture at solving this problem was carrying more than one
body-lens-film combination, primed and ready. It was easier then,
comparable Canon items being smaller than current (85-300 excepted) and
less expensive. It didn't always work. I missed the shot of a lifetime
when fully-equipped and in the right place:

" ... one of the best-ever photos that got away, pictures that I didn't
get because of one deficit or another in my repertoire of photographer
behavior: at an early- or mid-80s IMSA event (maybe) I was walking past
the open Goodyear garage toward the 76 station. I had cruised the
paddock/garage area once and was expecting to go to my car and out to
the edge of the course. I was not ready to take a picture, although I
had two loaded cameras hanging on my body.

"Around the corner of the station office came a side-by-side pair of
instantly recognizable and fully suited drivers: eighteen, nineteen, or
twenty years old, they were Michael Andretti on the left, and Al Unser,
Junior, on the right. They were very intent, leaning in toward one
another as they walked. Michael was telling Al Jr. about an on-track
adventure, saying something like, ' ... so I had to give it one of these
.... ' He reared back and demonstrated by extending his arms, gripping an
imaginary steering wheel, and whipping his hands back and forth in small
arcs. Al Jr. nodded understanding. I gaped.

"By the time I got a camera up, they were just two guys walking away.
Kids. Pretending to be race drivers. Only, they were race drivers. Ow."

Any road, be prepared to enjoy the search and decision-making, don't
regard your choice as a wedding vow, and beware the influence of Dreaded
Cognitive Dissonance: it makes grown people throw hissy fits, ordinary
folks rabid, and leaves a bad taste in everyone's experience.


--
Frank ess
"There are some aspects of existence that simply do not yield to
thinking, plain or fancy."
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 5:22:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Chin Jin Phua wrote:
> Dang. Thank you for clearing this up. I have been considering a DSLR
to
> replace my P&S thinking that since it comes with the LCD, all the
> convenient features(live preview, AV priority, Spot metering) must be
> universal. I have had little success with film-SLR in my student's
day due
> to limited skills and budget, i'd probably have to reconsider my
decision
> since it didn't seem such a technological leap in terms of features
from
> film-to-digital SLR.

Big difference between film and digital, you can review your digital
capture immediately and make adjustments and learn.

Live preview is not important. Immediate review is very important.

Live preview is not the same as the capture at all. Since the preview
has to be moving, the shutter speed, sensitivity and aperture of the
preview is very different from the actual capture.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 5:55:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Graham Holden wrote:
<snip>
>
> If I _did_ have to make the choice again, I'd probably not make it between
> a 6MP dSLR and an 8MP p&s, as I don't think the extra 2 million p&s pixels
> are probably worth it for the price difference. Instead, I'd probably look
> for a good 4/5MP p&s. There's less compromise from packing so many pixels
> into a small sensor, more portability and a greater price differential.

This is a superb, well though-out post, and I was especially interested
in the last paragraph. I have been going through exactly the same
problem: dslr or Nikon 8800. After months of thinking about these two,
I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a Panasonic Z20. What I did was review
all the shooting I did in the last year with a 5 Mpix camera (Canon
s500)and ask, what did I wish I had most. It was a much longer zoom
range and vibration reduction always at hand. Next was a faster and
better lens at the corners. Next was a lot more flexibilty. What did I
want to retain as much as possible? Small size and portability.
Reasonably fast shutter response. I realized that the Panasonic was
much closer to what I wanted than a dslr. Since it can be had for under
$500, it is not a major investment. When I start sensing that I am
missing shots or not getting as good shots as I should be, then I'll
seriously look at a dslr. With my S500, I feel that over 90% of the
pictures could not be improved if I had taken tham with a fine dslr. The
other 10% weren't any great loss either. I also carefully compared
images with the Panasonic and dslrs, and while the latter were better,
they were not that much better for normal use. I decided I liked the
idea of owning a dslr more than i would actually benefit from having
one. And I've owned fine film slr's for decades.

Joe
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 6:39:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>
> (d) While sometimes useful/fun, I didn't/don't see the lack of live
> preview nor the ability to take video clips as a major drawback.

Sorry for sounding stupid, I have never owned a DSLR, so what exactly is
Live Preview? Is it the ability to freeze the photo for 3-5 seconds like my
Powershot G1 to see if the photo is well taken? Or is it the button to
review Photographs? Or is when you switch settings like White Balance, Spot
metering, the LCD instantly shows what it would look like "live" even b4
you press the shutter?


Thanks
CJ
March 3, 2005 6:39:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Chin Jin Phua wrote:
>>(d) While sometimes useful/fun, I didn't/don't see the lack of live
>>preview nor the ability to take video clips as a major drawback.
>
>
> Sorry for sounding stupid, I have never owned a DSLR, so what exactly is
> Live Preview? Is it the ability to freeze the photo for 3-5 seconds like my
> Powershot G1 to see if the photo is well taken? Or is it the button to
> review Photographs? Or is when you switch settings like White Balance, Spot
> metering, the LCD instantly shows what it would look like "live" even b4
> you press the shutter?


With DSLR's you have to hold the camera to your eye and don't see the
image until after it's been shot. I used to love the live preview on the
LCD of my P&S. So easy to see the exposure & composition as I move
things around. But the DSLR viewfinder is easier to see detail, I used
to miss little things that couldn't be seen in the LCD like a piece of
trash in the corner.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 7:19:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>
> With DSLR's you have to hold the camera to your eye and don't see the
> image until after it's been shot. I used to love the live preview on the
> LCD of my P&S. So easy to see the exposure & composition as I move
> things around. But the DSLR viewfinder is easier to see detail, I used
> to miss little things that couldn't be seen in the LCD like a piece of
> trash in the corner.

So, what exactly is the LCD on DSLR for? Playing with menu and settings?
March 3, 2005 7:19:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Chin Jin Phua wrote:

>>With DSLR's you have to hold the camera to your eye and don't see the
>>image until after it's been shot. I used to love the live preview on the
>>LCD of my P&S. So easy to see the exposure & composition as I move
>>things around. But the DSLR viewfinder is easier to see detail, I used
>>to miss little things that couldn't be seen in the LCD like a piece of
>>trash in the corner.
>
>
> So, what exactly is the LCD on DSLR for? Playing with menu and settings?


You can inspect the exposure after shooting, trial & error style. It is
quite a different technique from live preview. Big difference.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 7:52:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Dang. Thank you for clearing this up. I have been considering a DSLR to
replace my P&S thinking that since it comes with the LCD, all the
convenient features(live preview, AV priority, Spot metering) must be
universal. I have had little success with film-SLR in my student's day due
to limited skills and budget, i'd probably have to reconsider my decision
since it didn't seem such a technological leap in terms of features from
film-to-digital SLR.
In another word, I see the quality of my pictures taken improved moving from
P&S film to P&S digital because of certain features, but I am unlikely to
see an improvement with SLR-DSLR with my current skill. Is that a fair
statement to make?
March 3, 2005 7:52:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Chin Jin Phua wrote:

> Dang. Thank you for clearing this up. I have been considering a DSLR to
> replace my P&S thinking that since it comes with the LCD, all the
> convenient features(live preview, AV priority, Spot metering) must be
> universal. I have had little success with film-SLR in my student's day due
> to limited skills and budget, i'd probably have to reconsider my decision
> since it didn't seem such a technological leap in terms of features from
> film-to-digital SLR.
> In another word, I see the quality of my pictures taken improved moving from
> P&S film to P&S digital because of certain features, but I am unlikely to
> see an improvement with SLR-DSLR with my current skill. Is that a fair
> statement to make?


The DSLR will push you to study & learn more technique so it could
improve your skills in that way. I'm not familiar with high end P&S
cameras but DSLRs have lots of easily accessible manual controls. My old
P&S was impractical to adjust things manually, the DSLR is easier to
adjust. The optical viewfinder is very nice, it's just completely
different from LCD shooting. You can get better results but it takes
more work to actually keep track of shutter, aperture, ISO, check the
histogram on the LCD after, more work converting RAW files, larger
files, more expensive lenses. If you don't want all that, the P&S is a
better choice.
March 3, 2005 9:39:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

<axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to make?
>
> I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>
> Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off buying
> a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are warned that
> it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your camera and, you can
> invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to take pictures with, not
> to be regularly cleaning it!

The Olympus E-1 and E300 both have an automated cleaning system that
cleans the sensor everytime you switch on the camera, takes decent
pictures too!
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 9:51:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:39:37 +0000, nospam@nospam.com (Keith) wrote:

><axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to make?
>>
>> I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>>
>> Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off buying
>> a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are warned that
>> it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your camera and, you can
>> invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to take pictures with, not
>> to be regularly cleaning it!
>
>The Olympus E-1 and E300 both have an automated cleaning system that
>cleans the sensor everytime you switch on the camera, takes decent
>pictures too!

One of the windshield wipers got stuck on my Oly E-1, and I kept on
forgetting to re-fill the sensor-cleaning fluid reservoir (it's too
small really) so I swapped it for a D70.

Cleaning dust of the D70 sensor is easy - just give the camera a good
shake every morning. That does the trick.

<g>

--
Owamanga!
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:06:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"You know it makes sense Rodney"


> One of the windshield wipers got stuck on my Oly E-1, and I kept on
> forgetting to re-fill the sensor-cleaning fluid reservoir (it's too
> small really) so I swapped it for a D70.
>
> Cleaning dust of the D70 sensor is easy - just give the camera a good
> shake every morning. That does the trick.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 11:06:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 2 Mar 2005 21:59:13 -0800, chrlz@go.com wrote:

>Try www.dpreview.com, and work out what is really important to you - it
>really depends on what you want to shoot.
>
>I would be a bit more concerned about the 8800's shutter lag and
>general slowness, than the occasional need to clean a CCD. How often
>will you shoot moving objects? How often will you change the lens in a
>dusty environment? What about noise (high in the 8800)?... etc..


You beat me to it. That's the biggest issue between DSLR and nonDSLR
if lens variety isn't that important.

CCD cleaning is not so bad with SensorSwabs.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 11:10:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:19:49 +0000, Graham Holden
<look@bottom.of.post> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 05:48:40 GMT, <axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to make?
>>
>>I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>>
>>Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off buying
>>a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are warned that
>>it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your camera and, you can
>>invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to take pictures with, not
>>to be regularly cleaning it!
>>
>>I would be grateful for your thoughts/experiences, AND opinions on the
>>CP8800?
>>
>>Thank you everyone in anticipation of your help.
>>
>>Darrell Burnett.
>>
>
>My experience below. Not necessarily the "right" way of doing things, nor
>the right answer for everyone, but just "for information":
>
>When I started looking for a decent digital camera, I originally started
>looking at the 8700 (initially for no other reason than I saw a second-
>hand one in a window -- at that time, I hadn't done any research). As I
>dug into things, I got to the stage of trying to decide between the 8700
>and the 8800 (I liked what the 8800 offered, but it cost more etc.). I was
>on the verge of getting one or the other a couple of times, but never got
>to the "commit" stage.
>
>Initially, I had not so much "rejected" a dSLR, as never really considered
>one -- I wasn't a converting-SLR-film-user, and although I knew the basics,
>"playing with lenses and all that hassle" was "too much bother" for what I
>wanted.
>
>However, as I put off deciding between the 8700/8800 for longer, I saw more
>and more info/advice/dogmatism that led me to begin to consider a dSLR (and
>specifically the D70). At first this was "if only..."; but as I read more
>of the differences between the top-end (or, at least, 8MP) p&s cameras and
>bottom-end (6MP) dSLRs, the D70 became more and more attractive.
>
>In the end, I went for the D70 for a number of reasons, at least a couple
>of which are I hope legitimate:
>
>(a) Especially in difficult conditions, six million dSLR pixels should give
>better photos than eight million p&s ones;
>
>(b) Although it's not a situation that will crop up that often, I'd
>recently been to a Formula 1 training day at Silverstone, and couldn't get
>the shots I wanted with a compact film zoom camera nor an old/cheap digital
>p&s. While the D70 body isn't "professional sports standard", better
>shutter-lag, shot-speed and buffer-speed, plus not having an EVF that
>blanks between shots should be of benefit if I am ever in a similar
>situation.
>
>(c) The general "expandability" of a dSLR... while I wanted to be able to
>take good photographs, I'm certainly not a "keen amateur", nor really is
>photography a "major hobby". As such, whatever I chose would likely be my
>main camera for several years to come. While I probably won't push against
>all the limits, I felt my options would be limited less with the D70.
>
>(d) While sometimes useful/fun, I didn't/don't see the lack of live preview
>nor the ability to take video clips as a major drawback.
>
>(e) If I'm honest, it appealed to the "techno-head" in me a bit...
>
>(f) Although I hadn't intended to spend what the D70 cost, I _could_ afford
>it (and didn't have to justify the extra to anyone).
>
>(g) I'd seen references to dust, but decided that _in_the_main_ it was one
>of those issues where you get the most noise (as in postings to usenet/the
>web) from people for whom it has become an obsession, and that for the
>(nearly) silent majority, it wasn't too big a problem.
>
>Did I make the right decision (for me)? I think so. I'm very happy with
>my D70. I probably don't yet _need_ all the D70 has to offer, but it's
>there if I do, and I think I'm less likely to think "if only my camera
>could..." than with the 8700/8800.
>
>If I _did_ have to make the choice again, I'd probably not make it between
>a 6MP dSLR and an 8MP p&s, as I don't think the extra 2 million p&s pixels
>are probably worth it for the price difference. Instead, I'd probably look
>for a good 4/5MP p&s. There's less compromise from packing so many pixels
>into a small sensor, more portability and a greater price differential.
>


IMO the best deal on a 5MP P&S is the Nikon Coolpix 5400, under $300
after a $200 rebate (until Mar 31)
>HTH
>
>Regards,
>Graham Holden (g-holden AT dircon DOT co DOT uk)
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 11:12:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 3 Mar 2005 14:22:52 -0800, bj286@scn.org wrote:

>Chin Jin Phua wrote:
>> Dang. Thank you for clearing this up. I have been considering a DSLR
>to
>> replace my P&S thinking that since it comes with the LCD, all the
>> convenient features(live preview, AV priority, Spot metering) must be
>> universal. I have had little success with film-SLR in my student's
>day due
>> to limited skills and budget, i'd probably have to reconsider my
>decision
>> since it didn't seem such a technological leap in terms of features
>from
>> film-to-digital SLR.
>
>Big difference between film and digital, you can review your digital
>capture immediately and make adjustments and learn.
>
>Live preview is not important. Immediate review is very important.

With the P&S the live preview of what the actual photo size will be.
Their viewfinders are completely inaccurate rel to the DSLRs.

>
>Live preview is not the same as the capture at all. Since the preview
>has to be moving, the shutter speed, sensitivity and aperture of the
>preview is very different from the actual capture.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 12:23:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Could anyone please help me with a difficult decision I can't seem to make?
>
> I'm stuck between the Nikon CP8800 and the Nikon D70.
>
> Here is my difficulty: The whole CCD cleaning thing is putting me off buying
> a dSLR. Every site you look at about cleaning the CCD, you are warned that
> it's difficult to do correctly, you can easily ruin your camera and, you can
> invalidate the warrenty. Besides, I want a camera to take pictures with, not
> to be regularly cleaning it!
>
> I would be grateful for your thoughts/experiences, AND opinions on the
> CP8800?
>
> Thank you everyone in anticipation of your help.
>
> Darrell Burnett.
>
>

My first few photos from my new D70 had dust spots. :( 

Ben
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 6:06:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

One more screed:
It is obvious that most writers have limited or no real experience with EVF
cameras: these are a new form factor.
The main drawback as well as the main asset is the EVF as for most people
the zoom lens is of sufficient range and quality. If you do not understand
why the lens diaphragm is limited to f8 then it should not be of any concern
to you whatever.
Also those who have not worked extensively with images created from these
8mp sensors have absolutely no idea how stellar the images can be compared
to 6mp dSLRs.
If you want to see noise, moire and fringing pick up a D70: because I am
used to a lifetime of SLRs I use my D70 more than my Sony 828, but in
general I prefer the image quality from my Sony 828.
The extra 2mps make a real difference.
In fact, if one wants a dSLR I think it unwise to buy anything other than
the new Canon D20 (unfortunately I have a shelf full of Nikon lenses).
The EVF allows one to preview what happens with exposure adjustments prior
to taking the picture, e.g exposing for the highlights or the shadows. This
can be very helpful as well as instructive.
However it can be difficult to track moving objects or to use an EVF in
bright light: one can only guess when to press the shutter button.
EVF cameras handle much more slowly than dSLRS, most of which, like the D70,
handle almost as quickly as film SLRs.
If you do not want an SLR style/size/weight camera do not hesitate to get
the EVF camera of your choice.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 10:05:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

WOW!!!

Thanks for all the info guys!! I've just got in after working nights
expecting maybe two or three replies, and at the risk of repeating my self:
WOW!!

Thank you again everyone. I shall read properly, inwardly digest, compute,
and hopefully (armed with all the info and advice) at last come to a
conclusion and a decision. Maybe!

Sincerely

Darrell Burnett.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 10:31:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Joseph Miller wrote:
[]
> This is a superb, well though-out post, and I was especially
> interested in the last paragraph. I have been going through exactly
> the same problem: dslr or Nikon 8800. After months of thinking about
> these two, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a Panasonic Z20. What I
> did was review all the shooting I did in the last year with a 5 Mpix
> camera (Canon s500)and ask, what did I wish I had most.

There's a free program called Focalplot at:

http://www.wega2.vandel.nl/

which enables you to analyse the focal lengths used in a series of digital
camera pictures....

Cheers,
David
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 10:39:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Oliver Costich wrote:
[]
> With the P&S the live preview of what the actual photo size will be.
> Their viewfinders are completely inaccurate rel to the DSLRs.

Both consumer DSLRs and the LCD and EVF finders of point-and-shoot cameras
show about 97% of the full frame area. Unless you have depth-of-field
preview, the DSLR finder will also inaccurately portray the depth of
field.

David
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 12:32:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> The DSLR will push you to study & learn more technique so it could
> improve your skills in that way. I'm not familiar with high end P&S
> cameras but DSLRs have lots of easily accessible manual controls. My old
> P&S was impractical to adjust things manually, the DSLR is easier to
> adjust.

I was trying to help someone with a high-end Nikon p and s camera take some
macro photos. What a pain, trying to focus manually turning all the knobs
on the camera, and we never did get a good shot. With my D70 I just throw a
macro lens on the camera and turn the focus ring on the lens 'till it's in
focus.
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 10:29:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:32:18 -0700, in rec.photo.digital "Sheldon"
<sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote:

>I was trying to help someone with a high-end Nikon p and s camera take some
>macro photos. What a pain, trying to focus manually turning all the knobs
>on the camera, and we never did get a good shot. With my D70 I just throw a
>macro lens on the camera and turn the focus ring on the lens 'till it's in
>focus.

Don't know what the problem was. As with David's experience mine with a 990
and 5700 are easy to take macros with AF, as long as you 1. turn on the
macro option and 2. put the lens in the macro sweet spot so the macro
flower symbol turns yellow.

http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/CP_990/Macro/...
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/CP_5700/Macro...

I will agree that MF with any of the Nikon P&S is a PIA in general.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 1:47:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 03-04-05, Bmoag wrote:

(clipped)

>If you want to see noise, moire and
> fringing pick up a D70


(clipped again)

I've been using my D70 since May of 2004, and these have not been a
problem with my camera.

I usually shoot at ISO's of 400 or less, so noise has not been evident
at all, as long as I expose properly. At higher ISO's, noise does become
more evident, but not really objectionable until I go really high or
have to crop significantly.

I have not encountered shooting situations where the Moire problem is
evident, at least not so far. I have never seen even a hint of color
fringing, except when I shot with the inexpensive Nikon 70-300 zoom,
which I bought and returned immediately, so I suspect that if you're
seeing fringing, it's the fault of your lens, not the camera body.

Regarding dust spots, I shoot nature stuff primarily, and often have to
change lenses in the field, so I have had dust spots. So far, using a
large rubber bulb to blow the dust off of the sensor has worked just
fine, and I haven't had to resort to cleaning the sensor with swabs and
cleaning solution yet, but I'm sure it will eventually be needed.

Regarding macro capabilities, I respectfully question that the macro
capabilities of a digital point-and-shoot can equal a DSLR with a good
dedicated macro lens, especially when you consider that you can add
extension tubes to a DSLR macro for some extreme close-ups of really
tiny subject matter, which is something that I occasionally require.

Plus, my SB800 flash functions very nicely in this macro set-up, so I am
able to hand-hold the camera in extreme macro situations and get spot-on
flash exposure.

John
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 2:24:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Sheldon wrote:
[]
> I was trying to help someone with a high-end Nikon p and s camera
> take some macro photos. What a pain, trying to focus manually
> turning all the knobs on the camera, and we never did get a good
> shot. With my D70 I just throw a macro lens on the camera and turn
> the focus ring on the lens 'till it's in focus.

I don't find that on the Nikon 990, 5700 and 8400. The 990 is absolutely
superb for macro and doesn't require an extra lens (as would a DSLR). You
just need to:

- press the focus button until the macro symbol appears (a flower)

- use the middle of the zoom range (the flower changes colour)

- use the auto-focus

With the swivel viewfinder, positioning the camera and framing the subject
can be a lot easier than with a DSLR.

Cheers,
David
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 9:21:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.

--
____________________________
PATRICK//////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\
================================
A+ CERTIFIED TECH...........
______________________

<axzo509wxuox@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:lNTVd.32$A01.3@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
> WOW!!!
>
> Thanks for all the info guys!! I've just got in after working nights
> expecting maybe two or three replies, and at the risk of repeating my
> self: WOW!!
>
> Thank you again everyone. I shall read properly, inwardly digest, compute,
> and hopefully (armed with all the info and advice) at last come to a
> conclusion and a decision. Maybe!
>
> Sincerely
>
> Darrell Burnett.
>
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 9:21:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
> You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
> good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>
> --
>

That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no knowledgeable
dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used to have numerous
camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed cameras. Most of them
have been driven out of business by the WalMarts and discount stores. I am
getting ready to buy a camera right now, and so far have not even found a
location where I can do any "hands-on" testing. Those that do carry cameras
will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the cameras I wanted to compare, but never in
the same store -- and the salespersons' knowledge is "less than
knowledgeable." So, I find myself relying more and more on sites like
dpreview and messages on this newsgroup. For example, I am very interested
in Nikon 8800. It seems to fill most of what I want. However, my big
concern is shutter lag -- and I *still* have not found one in stock anywhere
so that I could actually test one.

MaryL
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 2:14:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

There is no solution to shutter lag...when you deal with the 8800...Unless
some type of miracle...CF comes out....

--
____________________________
PATRICK//////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\
================================
A+ CERTIFIED TECH...........
______________________

"MaryL" <carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
news:jNVWd.10269$3z.9146@okepread03...
>
> "Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>> You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
>> good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>>
>> --
>>
>
> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no knowledgeable
> dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used to have
> numerous camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed cameras.
> Most of them have been driven out of business by the WalMarts and discount
> stores. I am getting ready to buy a camera right now, and so far have not
> even found a location where I can do any "hands-on" testing. Those that
> do carry cameras will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the cameras I wanted to
> compare, but never in the same store -- and the salespersons' knowledge is
> "less than knowledgeable." So, I find myself relying more and more on
> sites like dpreview and messages on this newsgroup. For example, I am
> very interested in Nikon 8800. It seems to fill most of what I want.
> However, my big concern is shutter lag -- and I *still* have not found one
> in stock anywhere so that I could actually test one.
>
> MaryL
>
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 2:14:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The problem is, I don't know *how severe* the shutter lag is. For example,
my first digital camera was a Nikon Coolpix 880. It served my purposes
admirably, and I still use it. I bought it specifically for a trip to
Alaska when I wanted something small enough to stick in a pocket yet good
enough to produce good photos. Even now, it is a pretty good little camera,
and it takes gorgeous macros -- but one *big* negative with it is the very
bad problem with shutter lag. So, I would love to know how to compare the
relative speed of the two cameras in low light. If shutter lag on the 8800
is as bad as on the 880, then I wouldn't want it. I have seen some reviews
that say the shutter lag on the 8800 is serious and others that say it is
barely perceptible! However, this is one of the reasons I am also
considering a D70. I also like the idea of a dSLR (which would exclude the
8800), yet I want a camera that I can easily carry with me. I don't want to
become encumbered with a lot of weight, as eventually happened with my film
SLRs -- and meant that I frequently opted not to even carry a camera to
certain locations. And, of course, the D70 can become quite pricey once
lenses are added in. It is frustrating not to have any locations within
reasonable driving distance where I can get the "feel" of the cameras I am
considering.

MaryL


"Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:_HWWd.14448$3t3.2184@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> There is no solution to shutter lag...when you deal with the 8800...Unless
> some type of miracle...CF comes out....
>
> --
> ____________________________
> PATRICK//////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\
> ================================
> A+ CERTIFIED TECH...........
> ______________________
>
> "MaryL" <carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
> news:jNVWd.10269$3z.9146@okepread03...
>>
>> "Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>>> You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
>>> good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>
>> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no
>> knowledgeable dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used
>> to have numerous camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed
>> cameras. Most of them have been driven out of business by the WalMarts
>> and discount stores. I am getting ready to buy a camera right now, and
>> so far have not even found a location where I can do any "hands-on"
>> testing. Those that do carry cameras will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the
>> cameras I wanted to compare, but never in the same store -- and the
>> salespersons' knowledge is "less than knowledgeable." So, I find myself
>> relying more and more on sites like dpreview and messages on this
>> newsgroup. For example, I am very interested in Nikon 8800. It seems to
>> fill most of what I want. However, my big concern is shutter lag -- and I
>> *still* have not found one in stock anywhere so that I could actually
>> test one.
>>
>> MaryL
>>
>
>
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 2:56:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

MaryL wrote:
[]
> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no
> knowledgeable dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we
> used to have numerous camera stores staffed by people who knew and
> enjoyed cameras. Most of them have been driven out of business by
> the WalMarts and discount stores. I am getting ready to buy a camera
> right now, and so far have not even found a location where I can do
> any "hands-on" testing. Those that do carry cameras will sometimes
> have 1 or 2 of the cameras I wanted to compare, but never in the same
> store -- and the salespersons' knowledge is "less than
> knowledgeable." So, I find myself relying more and more on sites
> like dpreview and messages on this newsgroup. For example, I am very
> interested in Nikon 8800. It seems to fill most of what I want.
> However, my big concern is shutter lag -- and I *still* have not
> found one in stock anywhere so that I could actually test one.

Can you buy on a sale-or-return basis?

David
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 2:56:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David J Taylor" <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk>
wrote in message news:SjXWd.33$Qb2.24@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> MaryL wrote:
> []
>> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no
>> knowledgeable dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we
>> used to have numerous camera stores staffed by people who knew and
>> enjoyed cameras. Most of them have been driven out of business by
>> the WalMarts and discount stores. I am getting ready to buy a camera
>> right now, and so far have not even found a location where I can do
>> any "hands-on" testing. Those that do carry cameras will sometimes
>> have 1 or 2 of the cameras I wanted to compare, but never in the same
>> store -- and the salespersons' knowledge is "less than
>> knowledgeable." So, I find myself relying more and more on sites
>> like dpreview and messages on this newsgroup. For example, I am very
>> interested in Nikon 8800. It seems to fill most of what I want. However,
>> my big concern is shutter lag -- and I *still* have not
>> found one in stock anywhere so that I could actually test one.
>
> Can you buy on a sale-or-return basis?
>
> David
>

I plan to ask about that. I will probably use B&H. I have received good
service from them in the past, but I need to verify their return policy.

MaryL
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 3:18:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

MaryL wrote:
> "Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>
>>You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
>>good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>>
>>--
>>
>
>
> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no knowledgeable
> dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used to have numerous
> camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed cameras. Most of them
> have been driven out of business by the WalMarts and discount stores. I am
> getting ready to buy a camera right now, and so far have not even found a
> location where I can do any "hands-on" testing. Those that do carry cameras
> will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the cameras I wanted to compare, but never in
> the same store -- and the salespersons' knowledge is "less than
> knowledgeable." So, I find myself relying more and more on sites like
> dpreview and messages on this newsgroup. For example, I am very interested
> in Nikon 8800. It seems to fill most of what I want. However, my big
> concern is shutter lag -- and I *still* have not found one in stock anywhere
> so that I could actually test one.
>
> MaryL
>
>

In this case you must try an 8800. I decided it was the camera for me
based on reviews. My first was a Coolpix 950, and the shutter lag never
bothered me that much with that camera. I tend to frame a subject and
push the shutter half-way at the same time, so when I push all the way,
there is virtually no lag. I thought the 8800 shutter lag wouldn't
bother me, but it really did. There was something about the EVF and the
way things behaved when you pushed the button that put me off. It also
hunted around at full zoom in light that was a bit dim. I really wanted
to love this camera and played with it for about 30 minutes in the
store. The salesman was extremely knowledgable, as he was using one
professionally. But in the end I just found it didn't feel right to me.
Once again I concluded you must try it out for yourself. I could well
imagine that others would love this camera. I was very disapointed. On
the other hand, I tried a Panasonic Z20, and immediately it felt just
right in my hands. I thought it was perfect except I wanted 8 Mpix. Now
I have done a careful comparison of 5 and 8 Mpix cameras and have
decided, that for a while at least, the Panasonic should do just fine.

Joe
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 6:04:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Joseph Miller" <miller@ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:422cb88a@darkstar...
> MaryL wrote:
>> "Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>>
>>>You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
>>>good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>
>>
>> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no
>> knowledgeable dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used
>> to have numerous camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed
>> cameras. Most of them have been driven out of business by the WalMarts
>> and discount stores. I am getting ready to buy a camera right now, and
>> so far have not even found a location where I can do any "hands-on"
>> testing. Those that do carry cameras will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the
>> cameras I wanted to compare, but never in the same store -- and the
>> salespersons' knowledge is "less than knowledgeable." So, I find myself
>> relying more and more on sites like dpreview and messages on this
>> newsgroup. For example, I am very interested in Nikon 8800. It seems to
>> fill most of what I want. However, my big concern is shutter lag -- and
>> I *still* have not found one in stock anywhere so that I could actually
>> test one.
>>
>> MaryL
>
> In this case you must try an 8800. I decided it was the camera for me
> based on reviews. My first was a Coolpix 950, and the shutter lag never
> bothered me that much with that camera. I tend to frame a subject and
> push the shutter half-way at the same time, so when I push all the way,
> there is virtually no lag. I thought the 8800 shutter lag wouldn't bother
> me, but it really did. There was something about the EVF and the way
> things behaved when you pushed the button that put me off. It also hunted
> around at full zoom in light that was a bit dim. I really wanted to love
> this camera and played with it for about 30 minutes in the store. The
> salesman was extremely knowledgable, as he was using one professionally.
> But in the end I just found it didn't feel right to me. Once again I
> concluded you must try it out for yourself. I could well imagine that
> others would love this camera. I was very disapointed. On the other
> hand, I tried a Panasonic Z20, and immediately it felt just right in my
> hands. I thought it was perfect except I wanted 8 Mpix. Now I have done a
> careful comparison of 5 and 8 Mpix cameras and have decided, that for a
> while at least, the Panasonic should do just fine.
>
> Joe

Thanks for that information. My first digital camera (which I still use on
many occasions) was a Nikon 880. However, I like to take lots of pictures
of my cats. By the time I can get the shutter on that one activated, my
cats have often changed positions. It's frustrating! So, it sounds like
the 8800 might be the same way. I'm also interested in the D70. That one
won't have the shutter lag problem, but it will be heavier (and more
expensive). None of the stores around here have that one in stock, etiher.

MaryL
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 6:41:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"MaryL" <carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
news:yl3Xd.15144$3z.4377@okepread03...
>
> "Joseph Miller" <miller@ucolick.org> wrote in message
> news:422cb88a@darkstar...
>> MaryL wrote:
>>> "Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>>>
>>>>You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
>>>>good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no
>>> knowledgeable dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used
>>> to have numerous camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed
>>> cameras. Most of them have been driven out of business by the WalMarts
>>> and discount stores. I am getting ready to buy a camera right now, and
>>> so far have not even found a location where I can do any "hands-on"
>>> testing. Those that do carry cameras will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the
>>> cameras I wanted to compare, but never in the same store -- and the
>>> salespersons' knowledge is "less than knowledgeable." So, I find myself
>>> relying more and more on sites like dpreview and messages on this
>>> newsgroup. For example, I am very interested in Nikon 8800. It seems
>>> to fill most of what I want. However, my big concern is shutter lag --
>>> and I *still* have not found one in stock anywhere so that I could
>>> actually test one.
>>>
>>> MaryL
>>
>> In this case you must try an 8800. I decided it was the camera for me
>> based on reviews. My first was a Coolpix 950, and the shutter lag never
>> bothered me that much with that camera. I tend to frame a subject and
>> push the shutter half-way at the same time, so when I push all the way,
>> there is virtually no lag. I thought the 8800 shutter lag wouldn't bother
>> me, but it really did. There was something about the EVF and the way
>> things behaved when you pushed the button that put me off. It also
>> hunted around at full zoom in light that was a bit dim. I really wanted
>> to love this camera and played with it for about 30 minutes in the store.
>> The salesman was extremely knowledgable, as he was using one
>> professionally. But in the end I just found it didn't feel right to me.
>> Once again I concluded you must try it out for yourself. I could well
>> imagine that others would love this camera. I was very disapointed. On
>> the other hand, I tried a Panasonic Z20, and immediately it felt just
>> right in my hands. I thought it was perfect except I wanted 8 Mpix. Now
>> I have done a careful comparison of 5 and 8 Mpix cameras and have
>> decided, that for a while at least, the Panasonic should do just fine.
>>
>> Joe
>
> Thanks for that information. My first digital camera (which I still use
> on many occasions) was a Nikon 880. However, I like to take lots of
> pictures of my cats. By the time I can get the shutter on that one
> activated, my cats have often changed positions. It's frustrating! So,
> it sounds like the 8800 might be the same way. I'm also interested in the
> D70. That one won't have the shutter lag problem, but it will be heavier
> (and more expensive). None of the stores around here have that one in
> stock, etiher.
>
> MaryL
>

Thanks, Ben and Ed. It is sounding more and more definite that I should go
with a D70. I would like to get better photos of my cats. In addition, I
would like to take photos of birds. These would be birds in my backyard,
not birds at a great distance -- still, birds are very *small* and a better
telephoto would be a definite asset (and probably easier to use than the
teleconverter I currently use). I used to love using a 35mm SLR, so this
might be like getting back to my roots. It would also be a completely new
learning process because I seem to have forgotten most about what I used to
know!

MaryL
Anonymous
March 7, 2005 7:30:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:04:31 -0600, in rec.photo.digital "MaryL"
<carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote:


>Thanks for that information. My first digital camera (which I still use on
>many occasions) was a Nikon 880. However, I like to take lots of pictures
>of my cats. By the time I can get the shutter on that one activated, my
>cats have often changed positions. It's frustrating! So, it sounds like
>the 8800 might be the same way. I'm also interested in the D70. That one
>won't have the shutter lag problem, but it will be heavier (and more
>expensive). None of the stores around here have that one in stock, etiher.

If these types of shots are important to you, you would benefit from a
dslr. Near instant on and nearly zero shutter lag. The 8800 is going to
have some start up time that may not be insignificant. My 5700 which has
to extend the lens takes longer than my 990. The D70 is flick it on and
take the shot.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
March 7, 2005 11:55:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:18:53 -0800, Joseph Miller <miller@ucolick.org>
wrote:

>MaryL wrote:
>> "Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>>
>>>You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
>>>good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>
>>
>> That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no knowledgeable
>> dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used to have numerous
>> camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed cameras. Most of them
>> have been driven out of business by the WalMarts and discount stores. I am
>> getting ready to buy a camera right now, and so far have not even found a
>> location where I can do any "hands-on" testing. Those that do carry cameras
>> will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the cameras I wanted to compare, but never in
>> the same store -- and the salespersons' knowledge is "less than
>> knowledgeable." So, I find myself relying more and more on sites like
>> dpreview and messages on this newsgroup. For example, I am very interested
>> in Nikon 8800. It seems to fill most of what I want. However, my big
>> concern is shutter lag -- and I *still* have not found one in stock anywhere
>> so that I could actually test one.
>>
>> MaryL
>>
>>
>
>In this case you must try an 8800. I decided it was the camera for me
>based on reviews. My first was a Coolpix 950, and the shutter lag never
>bothered me that much with that camera. I tend to frame a subject and
>push the shutter half-way at the same time, so when I push all the way,
>there is virtually no lag. I thought the 8800 shutter lag wouldn't
>bother me, but it really did. There was something about the EVF and the
>way things behaved when you pushed the button that put me off. It also
>hunted around at full zoom in light that was a bit dim. I really wanted
>to love this camera and played with it for about 30 minutes in the
>store. The salesman was extremely knowledgable, as he was using one
>professionally. But in the end I just found it didn't feel right to me.
> Once again I concluded you must try it out for yourself. I could well
>imagine that others would love this camera. I was very disapointed. On
>the other hand, I tried a Panasonic Z20, and immediately it felt just
>right in my hands. I thought it was perfect except I wanted 8 Mpix. Now
>I have done a careful comparison of 5 and 8 Mpix cameras and have
>decided, that for a while at least, the Panasonic should do just fine.
>
>Joe



I too was about to buy the 8800 but thankfully someone in this group
posted a critical review of it. Instead I purchased the FZ20 several
months ago and can say there is no apprecialble shutter lag or start
up delay. 8 x 10 prints are very sharp. Controls are easy to use, if
fact much better than my prior Nikon 5700 & 990.

Albert
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:23:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

MaryL wrote:

> Thanks for that information. My first digital camera (which I still use on
> many occasions) was a Nikon 880. However, I like to take lots of pictures
> of my cats. By the time I can get the shutter on that one activated, my
> cats have often changed positions. It's frustrating! So, it sounds like
> the 8800 might be the same way. I'm also interested in the D70. That one
> won't have the shutter lag problem, but it will be heavier (and more
> expensive). None of the stores around here have that one in stock, etiher.

I upgraded from a P&S to a D70 because I was sick to death of the shutter lag
when trying to take photos of my cats and my 16 month old daughter. P&Ss aren't
very good at focusing on moving objects too. I have taken as many photos in 1
month with my my new D70 as I did in 12 with my old P&S.

I can not comment specifically on the 8800, but the shutter lag time should be
available on the net, as should the shutter lag time on my Kodak DX6490 P&S.

--
Ben Thomas
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 3:59:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 04:11:29 -0600, "MaryL"
<carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote:

>
>"Patrick Boch" <pboch@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:gpSWd.3006$J14.1809@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>> You can read all you like..Very good informative...But for me: I go to a
>> good dealer-and just plain use them. The right camera will come forward.
>>
>> --
>>
>
>That *used* to be what I would do, but there is literally no knowledgeable
>dealer within driving distance. When I was young, we used to have numerous
>camera stores staffed by people who knew and enjoyed cameras. Most of them
>have been driven out of business by the WalMarts and discount stores. I am
>getting ready to buy a camera right now, and so far have not even found a
>location where I can do any "hands-on" testing. Those that do carry cameras
>will sometimes have 1 or 2 of the cameras I wanted to compare, but never in
>the same store -- and the salespersons' knowledge is "less than
>knowledgeable." So, I find myself relying more and more on sites like
>dpreview and messages on this newsgroup. For example, I am very interested
>in Nikon 8800. It seems to fill most of what I want. However, my big
>concern is shutter lag -- and I *still* have not found one in stock anywhere
>so that I could actually test one.
>
>MaryL
>

The 8800 has lots of shutter lag. It was the deciding factor in my
buying a D70 instead.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:47:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Oliver Costich wrote:
[]
> The 8800 has lots of shutter lag. It was the deciding factor in my
> buying a D70 instead.

I would be surprised if it has "shutter" lag. Are you really talking
about "auto-focus" lag? You can eliminate that with a half-press of the
shutter release.

David
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:47:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David J Taylor" <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk>
wrote in message news:7McXd.671$Qb2.586@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Oliver Costich wrote:
> []
>> The 8800 has lots of shutter lag. It was the deciding factor in my
>> buying a D70 instead.
>
> I would be surprised if it has "shutter" lag. Are you really talking
> about "auto-focus" lag? You can eliminate that with a half-press of the
> shutter release.
>
> David
>

Yes, I guess that's what I call shutter lag. I have only been able to
*partially* reduce it in my 880, and that's what causes my concerns now.

MaryL
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:47:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"MaryL" <carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message
news:MFdXd.17900$3z.13352@okepread03...
>
> "David J Taylor"
> <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> wrote in
> message news:7McXd.671$Qb2.586@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Oliver Costich wrote:
>> []
>>> The 8800 has lots of shutter lag. It was the deciding factor in my
>>> buying a D70 instead.
>>
>> I would be surprised if it has "shutter" lag. Are you really talking
>> about "auto-focus" lag? You can eliminate that with a half-press of the
>> shutter release.
>>
>> David
>>
>
> Yes, I guess that's what I call shutter lag. I have only been able to
> *partially* reduce it in my 880, and that's what causes my concerns now.
>
> MaryL
>

To be more specific about it, I often find that it is impossible to get the
Coolpix880 to actually take a picture in low light for what seems like an
intolerably long time. I will have to wait while the red light flickers for
awhile, then finally the flash will go off. Depressing the shutter
half-way, then all the way helps some...but only "some." This is what I
want to avoid -- as much as possible -- with a new camera, and it is what I
have been calling "shutter lag." It is merely annoying when I have time to
wait for the camera/flash to activate (and is something that I knew when I
bought my first camera that I could not expect the same instant reaction as
I got from my 35mm SLR), but it is often "too late" and I lose the moment
when I try to photograph my cats in certain positions.

MaryL

MaryL
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:30:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

MaryL wrote:
> "David J Taylor"
> <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> wrote in
> message news:7McXd.671$Qb2.586@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Oliver Costich wrote:
>> []
>>> The 8800 has lots of shutter lag. It was the deciding factor in my
>>> buying a D70 instead.
>>
>> I would be surprised if it has "shutter" lag. Are you really talking
>> about "auto-focus" lag? You can eliminate that with a half-press of
>> the shutter release.
>>
>> David
>>
>
> Yes, I guess that's what I call shutter lag. I have only been able to
> *partially* reduce it in my 880, and that's what causes my concerns
> now.
> MaryL

I would see if you can compare the Nikon 8800 and the Panasonic FZ20 at a
good dealer, see what both are like in practice. The shutter lag
(overall) is very low in the Nikon 8400, but that's an unstabilised
wide-angle camera with extra focus assist, so not a fair comparison!

With the Nikon 5700 I got quite used to working with the finger on the
shutter most of the time, having pre-focussed, and just finally pressing
at the right instant. Doesn't help with the battery life, though!
Although I appreciate the faster response and marginally better image
quality of the DSLR, I'm no longer prepared to drag around all the
required kit and accessory lenses etc. I hate to think of the weight,
bulk and cost of an equivalent 432mm f/2.8 lens to match the FZ20!

Cheers,
David
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:30:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David J Taylor" <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk>
wrote in message news:IgeXd.707$Qb2.471@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> MaryL wrote:
>> "David J Taylor"
>> <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> wrote in
>> message news:7McXd.671$Qb2.586@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> I would see if you can compare the Nikon 8800 and the Panasonic FZ20 at a
> good dealer, see what both are like in practice. The shutter lag
> (overall) is very low in the Nikon 8400, but that's an unstabilised
> wide-angle camera with extra focus assist, so not a fair comparison!
>

Now we're back to the other problem I mentioned in one of my
messages...there is literally *no* supplier that I have been able to find
within reasonable driving distance that stocks the Nikon 8800, so I haven't
been able to get any hands-on experience at all. I have been in email
contact with a friend who bought an 8700, and he has not noticed shutter lag
(or auto-focus lag). I hadn't asked about the Panasonic FZ20, so I don't
know what the availability will be for that camera.

>
> Although I appreciate the faster response and marginally better image
> quality of the DSLR, I'm no longer prepared to drag around all the
> required kit and accessory lenses etc. I hate to think of the weight,
> bulk and cost of an equivalent 432mm f/2.8 lens to match the FZ20!
>
> Cheers,
> David
>

Yes, weight and cost are also my concerns. I like having a camera that is
as light-weight and portable as possible -- and that is a major reason why I
am so interested in the 8800 as contrasted with D70.

MaryL
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:46:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

MaryL wrote:
[]
> To be more specific about it, I often find that it is impossible to
> get the Coolpix880 to actually take a picture in low light for what
> seems like an intolerably long time.

OK, that narrows down the environment a bit.

> I will have to wait while the
> red light flickers for awhile, then finally the flash will go off.

I think that's the flash recharging from its previous shot - you may want
a faster flash recycling time - perhaps this means an external flash with
heavy batteries of perhaps you could turn up the ISO a little so that less
flash energy is required?

> Depressing the shutter half-way, then all the way helps some...but
> only "some." This is what I want to avoid -- as much as possible --
> with a new camera, and it is what I have been calling "shutter lag." It
> is merely annoying when I have time to wait for the camera/flash
> to activate (and is something that I knew when I bought my first
> camera that I could not expect the same instant reaction as I got
> from my 35mm SLR), but it is often "too late" and I lose the moment
> when I try to photograph my cats in certain positions.

Try to get to a situation either where flash isn't required, or where less
flash energy is required - a light-painted room, closer to the subject
etc. There may be some general techniques like this which will help
whatever camera you get. A large aperture lens, a large external flash,
and the higher basic sensitivity of a DSLR may all help.

Cheers,
David
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:46:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David J Taylor" <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk>
wrote in message news:wveXd.722$Qb2.347@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> MaryL wrote:
> []
>
>> I will have to wait while the
>> red light flickers for awhile, then finally the flash will go off.
>
> I think that's the flash recharging from its previous shot - you may want
> a faster flash recycling time - perhaps this means an external flash with
> heavy batteries of perhaps you could turn up the ISO a little so that less
> flash energy is required?
>

I do think it is related to the flash charging/recharging -- however, it
frequently happens with the very first use of the flash, not just when
recharging after a previous shot.

>
> Try to get to a situation either where flash isn't required, or where less
> flash energy is required - a light-painted room, closer to the subject
> etc. There may be some general techniques like this which will help
> whatever camera you get. A large aperture lens, a large external flash,
> and the higher basic sensitivity of a DSLR may all help.
>

That works with most of the pictures I take, but not under certain
circumstances. For example, I *love* to take pictures of my cats -- and
they do not cooperate by selecting the best-lit areas for their "poses."
You are correct, though, that light-painted rooms create much less of a
problem. I had already decided that I want an external flash with the new
camera. For one thing, I would like to be able to use bounce light (cats'
eyes again).

>
> Cheers,
> David
>
!