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ECC Memory for running short simulations

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a c 346 } Memory
a c 715 V Motherboard
July 11, 2012 5:01:22 PM

Q - Does the simulation have a large amount of data?

First both your CPU (Xeon, Opteron and many AMD CPU's) and MOBO must support ECC RAM (RDIMM, UDIMM) per supported type(s).

My take on ECC is simple, if the end product is for final production i.e. commercial use then always choose ECC. Some of my friends want even their home PC to have server/workstation components. There's no downside.

Sure you can have an error or errors after 6-10 hours, ECC is important if error-free is important.

Example 100% of my SQL and all servers and workstations are all running Xeon + ECC. I do Enterprise SQL data including CRM, REO, TAX, GIS, IDX, etc data processing with huge amounts of data where just by the sheer volume there would be errors 'guaranteed' i.e. corruption of time with non-ECC.

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a c 105 } Memory
a c 145 V Motherboard
July 11, 2012 6:37:22 PM
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ECC often comes hand in hand with registered memory. If you want to run a system with more than 64GB of memory you almost certainly will need to use RDIMMs and thus have ECC by design.

Statistically 10% of all memory modules will experience a memory error at least once per year. Of those modules that do experience errors 90% of them will experience more than one. The error rate compounds with the number of DIMMs installed in a system so holding all things equal a system with a single DIMM has a 1=% chance of experiencing a memory error. A system with two DIMMs has a 19% chance, a system with 8 has a 57% chance. A system with 16 DIMMs has an 81.5% chance of having a memory error.

The more memory there is installed in a system the more important ECC becomes. ECC can detect and correct single bit errors as well as detect but not correct multi-bit errors. Since there's about a 90% chance of an error reoccuring within a relatively short timeframe its very important that the bad module be replaced ASAP. The ability to detect and report module errors is a huge help. Imagine how many hours some people spend trying to find the source of persistent BSODs and multiply that by a datacenter full of modules.

As far as 6-10 hour simulations go it all depends on the consequences of experiencing a memory error during the simulation. If your simulation is error tolerant and/or self correcting it may not be necessary. If there's no consequences to your simulation blowing up, it's not necessary at all. From a purely professional standpoint ECC RDIMM memory should be used because it's honestly not that much more expensive than regular non-ECC UDIMMs
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July 12, 2012 7:25:07 PM

jaquith said:
Q - Does the simulation have a large amount of data?

First both your CPU (Xeon, Opteron and many AMD CPU's) and MOBO must support ECC RAM (RDIMM, UDIMM) per supported type(s).

My take on ECC is simple, if the end product is for final production i.e. commercial use then always choose ECC. Some of my friends want even their home PC to have server/workstation components. There's no downside.

Sure you can have an error or errors after 6-10 hours, ECC is important if error-free is important.

Example 100% of my SQL and all servers and workstations are all running Xeon + ECC. I do Enterprise SQL data including CRM, REO, TAX, GIS, IDX, etc data processing with huge amounts of data where just by the sheer volume there would be errors 'guaranteed' i.e. corruption of time with non-ECC.


Yeah it uses like 7-10 gigabytes of RAM for the simulation but when the results are saved the file is only around a 100 MB.
July 12, 2012 7:36:55 PM

Pinhedd said:
ECC often comes hand in hand with registered memory. If you want to run a system with more than 64GB of memory you almost certainly will need to use RDIMMs and thus have ECC by design.

Statistically 10% of all memory modules will experience a memory error at least once per year. Of those modules that do experience errors 90% of them will experience more than one. The error rate compounds with the number of DIMMs installed in a system so holding all things equal a system with a single DIMM has a 1=% chance of experiencing a memory error. A system with two DIMMs has a 19% chance, a system with 8 has a 57% chance. A system with 16 DIMMs has an 81.5% chance of having a memory error.

The more memory there is installed in a system the more important ECC becomes. ECC can detect and correct single bit errors as well as detect but not correct multi-bit errors. Since there's about a 90% chance of an error reoccuring within a relatively short timeframe its very important that the bad module be replaced ASAP. The ability to detect and report module errors is a huge help. Imagine how many hours some people spend trying to find the source of persistent BSODs and multiply that by a datacenter full of modules.

As far as 6-10 hour simulations go it all depends on the consequences of experiencing a memory error during the simulation. If your simulation is error tolerant and/or self correcting it may not be necessary. If there's no consequences to your simulation blowing up, it's not necessary at all. From a purely professional standpoint ECC RDIMM memory should be used because it's honestly not that much more expensive than regular non-ECC UDIMMs


Is there any way of putting in ECC RAM at an affordable price? I mean, because from what I understand you can't use an i7 processor, you have to use a xeon. Are there any other options for a rig that will cost around 3000 USD (should include a 500 gb ssd, 1tb hard disk and an nvidia quadro 4000 at the minimum)?
a c 346 } Memory
a c 715 V Motherboard
July 12, 2012 8:58:27 PM

claw999 said:
Yeah it uses like 7-10 gigabytes of RAM for the simulation but when the results are saved the file is only around a 100 MB.

That may seem like a lot, but the 'small' testing SQL I run uses 20GB+ memory and the (textual) data is 6GB+ with 100's of thousands of records with 25~100 fields per record.

claw999 said:
Are there any other options for a rig that will cost around 3000 USD (should include a 500 gb ssd, 1tb hard disk and an nvidia quadro 4000 at the minimum)?

A Xeon Workstation can be done with your budget, but as in any build some sacrifices must be made. The most important choices from the beginning are both the CPU and the GPU. The cost of a 500GB SSD isn't helping your budget.

Workstation:
$786 Kingston SSDNow KC100 Series 480GB 2.5" SATA III Enterprise SSD SKC100S3/480
$705 PNY VCQ4000-PB Quadro 4000 2GB Workstation Video Card
$110/ea Western Digital RE4 WD1003FBYX 7200/64MB 1TB Enterprise Hard Drive (recommend RAID 1, 5 or 10; 2~4 drives)
======
$1,601 sub-total

Problem - there's a huge cost difference between the E5-2650 8-core vs E5-2620 6-core, yep the 8-core is worth it but kills your budget all to hell. PassMark 12927 vs 8983 Then benches like Cinebench depends on the CPU choice, single or MP and then which CPUs.
$1,100 Intel Xeon E5-2650 8-core
vs
$415 Intel Xeon E5-2620 6-core

$330 SUPERMICRO X9SRA Single Socket R 256GB (RDIMM), 64GB (UDIMM), 2 (x16) PCI-E 3.0
or MP:
$500 SUPERMICRO X9DAi Extended 512GB (RDIMM), 128GB (UDIMM), 3 x PCI-E 3.0 x16 slots

RAM (depends on the MOBO) in general, single CPU 4x16GB RDIMM 1.50v or 1.35v which costs ~$700 per 64GB otherwise 4x8GB costs $300 per 32GB.

+ PSU
+ Case
+ OS
+ ODD, etc
======
$????? Depends on the choices.

Storage Options:

SSD Consumer:
$710 Intel 520 Series Cherryville SSDSC2CW480A310 2.5" 480GB SSD
$700 SAMSUNG 830 Series MZ-7PC512B/WW 2.5" 512GB SSD

HDD quality alternatives:
$300/ea Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1000DHTZ 1TB 10,000/64MB (recommend RAID 1, 5 or 10; 2~4 drives)
$110/ea Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200/32MB (recommend RAID 1, 5 or 10; 2~4 drives)
a c 105 } Memory
a c 145 V Motherboard
July 12, 2012 9:54:36 PM

claw999 said:
Is there any way of putting in ECC RAM at an affordable price? I mean, because from what I understand you can't use an i7 processor, you have to use a xeon. Are there any other options for a rig that will cost around 3000 USD (should include a 500 gb ssd, 1tb hard disk and an nvidia quadro 4000 at the minimum)?


The i7 and comparable Xeon processors are priced similarly, usually within a few dollars of eachother. The really expensive processors are the dual and quad socket capable processors (DP/MP), and octal core processors. Xeon processors that support only a single socket (UP) are marginally more expensive than their desktop counterparts. The same is true for ECC RDIMMs, similar capacities are similarly priced but higher capacities which aren't available in UDIMM are much more expensive.
July 13, 2012 12:10:26 PM

Pinhedd said:
The i7 and comparable Xeon processors are priced similarly, usually within a few dollars of eachother. The really expensive processors are the dual and quad socket capable processors (DP/MP), and octal core processors. Xeon processors that support only a single socket (UP) are marginally more expensive than their desktop counterparts. The same is true for ECC RDIMMs, similar capacities are similarly priced but higher capacities which aren't available in UDIMM are much more expensive.


Alright, so just to get a little perspective, what would the Xeon E5 or E3 equivalent of the i7-3730k be?

Also, are there any AMD processors that are not server but will support a quadro card and ECC RAM?
a c 105 } Memory
a c 145 V Motherboard
July 13, 2012 1:19:47 PM

claw999 said:
Alright, so just to get a little perspective, what would the Xeon E5 or E3 equivalent of the i7-3730k be?

Also, are there any AMD processors that are not server but will support a quadro card and ECC RAM?


The closest equivalent to the 3930k is the E5-1650. Please note though that it has only 10MB of L3 cache rather than 12.

The E5-2000 series has 6 core processors as well but these have a significantly lower base frequency and TDP
July 13, 2012 3:06:53 PM

Pinhedd said:
The closest equivalent to the 3930k is the E5-1650. Please note though that it has only 10MB of L3 cache rather than 12.

The E5-2000 series has 6 core processors as well but these have a significantly lower base frequency and TDP


http://ark.intel.com/compare/64601,63697

Wow, so why would someone buy the 3930k then? Are there some compatibility or building issues with having an e5-1650 on a server board vs an i7 3930k on an intel extreme atx board?

Also, earlier I was talking about the i7-3770k (3730k was a typo), do you know what the Xeon equivalent for that is?
July 13, 2012 4:47:23 PM

jaquith said:
That may seem like a lot, but the 'small' testing SQL I run uses 20GB+ memory and the (textual) data is 6GB+ with 100's of thousands of records with 25~100 fields per record.


A Xeon Workstation can be done with your budget, but as in any build some sacrifices must be made. The most important choices from the beginning are both the CPU and the GPU. The cost of a 500GB SSD isn't helping your budget.

Workstation:
$786 Kingston SSDNow KC100 Series 480GB 2.5" SATA III Enterprise SSD SKC100S3/480
$705 PNY VCQ4000-PB Quadro 4000 2GB Workstation Video Card
$110/ea Western Digital RE4 WD1003FBYX 7200/64MB 1TB Enterprise Hard Drive (recommend RAID 1, 5 or 10; 2~4 drives)
======
$1,601 sub-total

Problem - there's a huge cost difference between the E5-2650 8-core vs E5-2620 6-core, yep the 8-core is worth it but kills your budget all to hell. PassMark 12927 vs 8983 Then benches like Cinebench depends on the CPU choice, single or MP and then which CPUs.
$1,100 Intel Xeon E5-2650 8-core
vs
$415 Intel Xeon E5-2620 6-core

$330 SUPERMICRO X9SRA Single Socket R 256GB (RDIMM), 64GB (UDIMM), 2 (x16) PCI-E 3.0
or MP:
$500 SUPERMICRO X9DAi Extended 512GB (RDIMM), 128GB (UDIMM), 3 x PCI-E 3.0 x16 slots

RAM (depends on the MOBO) in general, single CPU 4x16GB RDIMM 1.50v or 1.35v which costs ~$700 per 64GB otherwise 4x8GB costs $300 per 32GB.

+ PSU
+ Case
+ OS
+ ODD, etc
======
$????? Depends on the choices.

Storage Options:

SSD Consumer:
$710 Intel 520 Series Cherryville SSDSC2CW480A310 2.5" 480GB SSD
$700 SAMSUNG 830 Series MZ-7PC512B/WW 2.5" 512GB SSD

HDD quality alternatives:
$300/ea Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1000DHTZ 1TB 10,000/64MB (recommend RAID 1, 5 or 10; 2~4 drives)
$110/ea Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200/32MB (recommend RAID 1, 5 or 10; 2~4 drives)


Jaqith,I had trouble understanding from your earlier post as well as this one on whether you are using ECC or non-ECC in these situations, which is it?
a c 105 } Memory
a c 145 V Motherboard
July 13, 2012 6:22:53 PM

claw999 said:
http://ark.intel.com/compare/64601,63697

Wow, so why would someone buy the 3930k then? Are there some compatibility or building issues with having an e5-1650 on a server board vs an i7 3930k on an intel extreme atx board?

Also, earlier I was talking about the i7-3770k (3730k was a typo), do you know what the Xeon equivalent for that is?


The E5-1650 can only be used in a server or workstation motherboard that supports Xeon processors. The 3930k can be used in almost any socket 2011 motherboard. Additionally the 3930k has a bit more cache and can be overclocked as Xeon processors typically have locked multipliers.

The IvyBridge based xeons are similarly named as the SandyBridge (non-E) based xeons but have an added v2 at the end. The analog for a 3770 (non-k) would be Xeon E3-1270v2 or E3-1275v2 if you also want the IGP. The Xeon E3-1270 and E3-1275 are the analogs for the i7-2600
a c 346 } Memory
a c 715 V Motherboard
July 13, 2012 7:49:05 PM

claw999 said:
Jaqith,I had trouble understanding from your earlier post as well as this one on whether you are using ECC or non-ECC in these situations, which is it?

ECC.

Further, since the entire discussion is ECC and I mentioned RDIMM (Registered memory) which is only ECC I am confused that you're confused. The build posted was specifically meant as a Workstation (Xeon, enterprise SSD/HDD, Pro GPU).

The problem is your budget for the components you listed even using consumer grade components (SB-E i7-3930K, SSD, HDD, GPU, etc).
July 13, 2012 8:31:51 PM

jaquith said:
ECC.

Further, since the entire discussion is ECC and I mentioned RDIMM (Registered memory) which is only ECC I am confused that you're confused. The build posted was specifically meant as a Workstation (Xeon, enterprise SSD/HDD, Pro GPU).

The problem is your budget for the components you listed even using consumer grade components (SB-E i7-3930K, SSD, HDD, GPU, etc).


Yes, I know the budget is low, basically building a xeon or i7 extreme workstation with all that stuff is a $5000ish affair maybe more. Thanks for your help
July 13, 2012 8:34:48 PM

Pinhedd said:
The E5-1650 can only be used in a server or workstation motherboard that supports Xeon processors. The 3930k can be used in almost any socket 2011 motherboard. Additionally the 3930k has a bit more cache and can be overclocked as Xeon processors typically have locked multipliers.

The IvyBridge based xeons are similarly named as the SandyBridge (non-E) based xeons but have an added v2 at the end. The analog for a 3770 (non-k) would be Xeon E3-1270v2 or E3-1275v2 if you also want the IGP. The Xeon E3-1270 and E3-1275 are the analogs for the i7-2600


Alright, thanks for all your help
July 13, 2012 8:36:20 PM

Best answer selected by claw999.
a c 146 } Memory
a c 328 V Motherboard
July 13, 2012 8:48:44 PM

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