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will an old, unused Li battery be a risk?

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Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 15, 2005 7:44:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

Hi,

A friend who is shutting down his computer store
discovered that he literally has has a 5 year old
laptop "new" in a sealed box, and he is willing
to sell it to me.

It's a rare opportunity for me to buy a computer
that would be usable, more or less, and it's a
model that I've owned and enjoyed in the past.

However it does have the two unused batteries in it
that have sat never-used for these 5 years.

One is a coin-shaped lithium battery, replacement
cost $15.

The other is a typical Lithium-Ion laptop battery
that would cost $150 to replace, if I could even
get one.

My question is, is there any risk either that

(A) either battery has begun leaking acid, keeping
in mind that they are lithium-based not Alkaline

(B) that either battery may be ready to explode.

Thanks for any help!

More about : unused battery risk

Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 15, 2005 7:49:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

I don't think either battery is likely to explode, but lithium ion
rechargeable batteries tend to wear out over time, even if unused. So
that battery will probably not hold as large a charge as it would when
it was new.

Any 5 year old laptop isn't worth much regardless. So don't pay too much.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 3:48:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Battery issue aside, u wanna go into eBay and checkout how much people
are unloading the said machine






---------------
If your business is looking for quick free consulting,
please ignore my replies. I only wish to reply to other
engineers/administrators and home users who are stuck
and not interested to give your business free consulting.

Thank you.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 4:43:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

The battery may or may not be good, but if it's properly designed, it
should not be hazardous. Actually, lithium batteries can last more than
a decade, and I would not be surprised if it's still good.


scrunchy2k@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A friend who is shutting down his computer store
> discovered that he literally has has a 5 year old
> laptop "new" in a sealed box, and he is willing
> to sell it to me.
>
> It's a rare opportunity for me to buy a computer
> that would be usable, more or less, and it's a
> model that I've owned and enjoyed in the past.
>
> However it does have the two unused batteries in it
> that have sat never-used for these 5 years.
>
> One is a coin-shaped lithium battery, replacement
> cost $15.
>
> The other is a typical Lithium-Ion laptop battery
> that would cost $150 to replace, if I could even
> get one.
>
> My question is, is there any risk either that
>
> (A) either battery has begun leaking acid, keeping
> in mind that they are lithium-based not Alkaline
>
> (B) that either battery may be ready to explode.
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 4:44:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other battery
chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium batteries that
are still alive and kicking.


Paul Rubin wrote:

> I don't think either battery is likely to explode, but lithium ion
> rechargeable batteries tend to wear out over time, even if unused. So
> that battery will probably not hold as large a charge as it would when
> it was new.
>
> Any 5 year old laptop isn't worth much regardless. So don't pay too much.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 4:44:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
> batteries that are still alive and kicking.

We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
at high temperatures.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 4:44:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

Paul Rubin wrote:

> Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>> batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>
> We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
> primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
> at high temperatures.

In this case the battery has been sitting on a shelf, uncharged, for 5 years
apparently. It's very likely that it has self-discharged below the
threshold at which its self-protective circuitry prevents recharge.

A lithium primary cell would still be good, but this is not a primary cell.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
July 16, 2005 5:40:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

On 15 Jul 2005 18:30:09 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt; wrote:

>Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>> batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>
>We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
>primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
>at high temperatures.

and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old lithium-ion
batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one in an Acer laptop that
is 9-odd years old and still delivers over half its intial rated endurance.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 5:40:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

budgie wrote:

> On 15 Jul 2005 18:30:09 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt;
> wrote:
>
>>Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>>> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>>> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>>> batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>>
>>We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
>>primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
>>at high temperatures.
>
> and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old
> lithium-ion
> batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one in an Acer laptop
> that is 9-odd years old and still delivers over half its intial rated
> endurance.

Have you ever let it sit on a shelf for five years without charging it? IN
USE they'll last a long time. If they aren't kept charged they
self-discharge below the threshold at which they can be recharged.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 8:10:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:44:01 GMT, Barry Watzman
<WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:

>Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other battery
>chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium batteries that
>are still alive and kicking.

My pedometer, that I just started using after having it for more than
one year, has this type of battery, and it doesn't have a switch to
turn it off. I think that says something...

Tom

>
>
>Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>> I don't think either battery is likely to explode, but lithium ion
>> rechargeable batteries tend to wear out over time, even if unused. So
>> that battery will probably not hold as large a charge as it would when
>> it was new.
>>
>> Any 5 year old laptop isn't worth much regardless. So don't pay too much.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 8:10:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

Tom MacIntyre wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:44:01 GMT, Barry Watzman
> <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other battery
>>chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium batteries that
>>are still alive and kicking.
>
> My pedometer, that I just started using after having it for more than
> one year, has this type of battery, and it doesn't have a switch to
> turn it off. I think that says something...

That's not a lithium-ion rechargeable.

> Tom
>
>>
>>
>>Paul Rubin wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think either battery is likely to explode, but lithium ion
>>> rechargeable batteries tend to wear out over time, even if unused. So
>>> that battery will probably not hold as large a charge as it would when
>>> it was new.
>>>
>>> Any 5 year old laptop isn't worth much regardless. So don't pay too
>>> much.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 9:57:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

Tom MacIntyre wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:44:01 GMT, Barry Watzman
> <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>> batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>
> My pedometer, that I just started using after having it for more than
> one year, has this type of battery, and it doesn't have a switch to
> turn it off. I think that says something...

Different type of "lithium" battery and doesn't have anything to do with the
subject!

--
James
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 11:35:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

No arugment that it's not going to be as good as a new battery, and it
may be no good at all, but this is a battery that has been stored,
unused, at presumably room temperature for 5 years. The chances that it
is still "good" [if not in "new" condition] are quite high. Many of
these batteries last more than a decade, and this one has zero "cycles"
on it (although a "few" cycles might have been better).


Paul Rubin wrote:

> Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>
>>Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>>battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>>batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>
>
> We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
> primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
> at high temperatures.
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 11:39:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

I have over a dozen 1996 to 1998 Toshiba PA2487 batteries that still
deliver more then 75% of their new capacity (that will still run a
490CDT Pentium II laptop for more than 2 hours with all power management
turned off and everything -- including screen backlight and hard drive
-- running continuously for the whole time).


budgie wrote:

> On 15 Jul 2005 18:30:09 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt; wrote:
>
>
>>Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>>
>>>Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>>>battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>>>batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>>
>>We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
>>primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
>>at high temperatures.
>
>
> and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old lithium-ion
> batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one in an Acer laptop that
> is 9-odd years old and still delivers over half its intial rated endurance.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 11:48:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

That's a fair enough concern, it would be interesting to hear back from
the original poster as to what the status of this particular battery
actually was (and I'd also like to know the make/model of the computer).

I do accept your premise as a possibility, I don't accept it as a
certainty. I do a lot of work with old laptops, many from the 1996-1998
era. Quite a few of these have batteries in them, and have been sitting
on a shelf or in a drawer for a long time (years) with batteries in them
(which is even worse, because there is some current draw). Many, many
of these batteries are then fully chargeable and functional, while
others are indeed totally and irrecoverably dead (but may have been so
when the laptop was last in service).

>
>
> Have you ever let it sit on a shelf for five years without charging it? IN
> USE they'll last a long time. If they aren't kept charged they
> self-discharge below the threshold at which they can be recharged.
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 11:48:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Barry Watzman wrote:

> That's a fair enough concern, it would be interesting to hear back from
> the original poster as to what the status of this particular battery
> actually was (and I'd also like to know the make/model of the computer).
>
> I do accept your premise as a possibility, I don't accept it as a
> certainty. I do a lot of work with old laptops, many from the 1996-1998
> era. Quite a few of these have batteries in them, and have been sitting
> on a shelf or in a drawer for a long time (years) with batteries in them
> (which is even worse, because there is some current draw). Many, many
> of these batteries are then fully chargeable and functional, while
> others are indeed totally and irrecoverably dead (but may have been so
> when the laptop was last in service).

FWIW, I encountered this with my old Thinkpad 770, which a friend's daughter
was going to take to college with her. It had been sitting for a couple of
years, had been working fine when I last turned it on, but was dead and
wouldn't charge after sitting. Got a new battery for it and it was fine.
She had a tantrum when she found out that the disk wasn't big enough to
hold her MP3 collection but that's another story . . .

Seems to depend on the charging circuit too--I have an external charger for
Sony Infolithium batteries--if I let them sit too long it won't charge them
but they charge fine in the camera.

So I wouldn't be so bold as to say that it was certain to happen, but I
would be so bold as to say that before I paid money for a machine that had
been sitting that long I'd want to know for sure.

>> Have you ever let it sit on a shelf for five years without charging it?
>> IN
>> USE they'll last a long time. If they aren't kept charged they
>> self-discharge below the threshold at which they can be recharged.
>>

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 16, 2005 11:48:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> writes:
> FWIW, I encountered this with my old Thinkpad 770, which a friend's daughter
> was going to take to college with her. It had been sitting for a couple of
> years, had been working fine when I last turned it on, but was dead and
> wouldn't charge after sitting. Got a new battery for it and it was fine.
> She had a tantrum when she found out that the disk wasn't big enough to
> hold her MP3 collection but that's another story . . .

I don't think there's any obstacle to putting a larger disc in a 770.
I still have a 770 and intend to do that sooner or later. A 770 would
make a nice mp3 player and I might set mine up that way. It's just
sitting in a box doing nothing right now.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 17, 2005 7:37:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

scrunchy2k@yahoo.com wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A friend who is shutting down his computer store
> discovered that he literally has has a 5 year old
> laptop "new" in a sealed box, and he is willing
> to sell it to me.
>
> It's a rare opportunity for me to buy a computer
> that would be usable, more or less, and it's a
> model that I've owned and enjoyed in the past.
>
> However it does have the two unused batteries in it
> that have sat never-used for these 5 years.
>
> One is a coin-shaped lithium battery, replacement
> cost $15.
>
> The other is a typical Lithium-Ion laptop battery
> that would cost $150 to replace, if I could even
> get one.
>
> My question is, is there any risk either that
>
> (A) either battery has begun leaking acid, keeping
> in mind that they are lithium-based not Alkaline
>
> (B) that either battery may be ready to explode.
>
> Thanks for any help!
The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from most
kinds of fire risk. I have heard that it is unwise to recharge a lithium
batter that has flattened below a certain voltage ( I think it was
1.5V/cell but can't remember for sure). In any case the chips inside the
pack would protect you by refusing to recharge if it is dangerous. To be
on the safe side, for the first couple of charge-discharge cycles, you
could keep it in a non-flamable area e.g. on a concrete or metal surface
and supervise it.

Chris
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 17, 2005 8:14:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Well, as some posted, a 5 year computer isn't worth much.
I know you posted about the battery concern, but I would be more
concerned about the operating system.
I bought my Dell Desktop 8100 in 2000 and it only came with Win ME.

Now Microsoft is no longer supporting the ME OS. I can only use MSN8
on it because of amount of disk space that MSN9 takes,,,,and the list
goes on about programs that do not work with my old machine. It still
works, but I would never buy another ME unit.

But I still consider myself a newbie and I do not have the skills to
upgrade to XPHomeSP2.

Good Luck, and do not pay more than $50.00 for it. LOL
donnalynne
July 17, 2005 1:30:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

scrunchy2k@yahoo.com wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A friend who is shutting down his computer store
> discovered that he literally has has a 5 year old
> laptop "new" in a sealed box, and he is willing
> to sell it to me.
>
> It's a rare opportunity for me to buy a computer
> that would be usable, more or less, and it's a
> model that I've owned and enjoyed in the past.
>
> However it does have the two unused batteries in it
> that have sat never-used for these 5 years.
>
> One is a coin-shaped lithium battery, replacement
> cost $15.
>
> The other is a typical Lithium-Ion laptop battery
> that would cost $150 to replace, if I could even
> get one.
>
> My question is, is there any risk either that
>
> (A) either battery has begun leaking acid, keeping
> in mind that they are lithium-based not Alkaline
>
> (B) that either battery may be ready to explode.
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
Why not TRY IT??. You may well have to renew the coin cell (bios
back-up), But then charge the main battery and see how long it keeps
going. After all you say the vendor is a friend, so he should let you do
this. If it dies factor the cost & availability of a new battery into
the deal. Li rechargeables have pretty good protection so I wouldn't
expect any dramatic failure
July 17, 2005 2:10:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:00:27 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:

>budgie wrote:
>
>> On 15 Jul 2005 18:30:09 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt;
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>>>> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>>>> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>>>> batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>>>
>>>We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
>>>primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
>>>at high temperatures.
>>
>> and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old
>> lithium-ion
>> batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one in an Acer laptop
>> that is 9-odd years old and still delivers over half its intial rated
>> endurance.
>
>Have you ever let it sit on a shelf for five years without charging it? IN
>USE they'll last a long time. If they aren't kept charged they
>self-discharge below the threshold at which they can be recharged.

As a commercial Li_ion charger designer, I have done a fair amount of both cycle
testing and storage testing. After 2 years at room temperatures, a pack of
three 18650 cells had lost about 10% charge, and that was from full charge. The
best charge state for long-term storage - and the state in which new packs are
far more likely to be delivered - will certainly lose no more than this.

Also, when cell/pack voltage drops below the recharge threshold this does NOT
preclude recharging. Rather, the pack exhibits a high impedance to the charger
and absorbs only a "qualifying" charge (similar to under-temperature behaviour)
until that threshold is reached, at which time normal charging resumes.

That threshold is not a "death sentence" as you infer. It is applied for two
purposes. Firstly, to protect the cells against further discharge and possible
descent into unstable conditions. Secondly, to ensure that "normal" charge
levels aren't able to be imposed on cells at that SOC.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 17, 2005 2:10:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

budgie wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:00:27 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>budgie wrote:
>>
>>> On 15 Jul 2005 18:30:09 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt;
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>>>>> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>>>>> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>>>>> batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>>>>
>>>>We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
>>>>primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
>>>>at high temperatures.
>>>
>>> and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old
>>> lithium-ion
>>> batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one in an Acer
>>> laptop that is 9-odd years old and still delivers over half its intial
>>> rated endurance.
>>
>>Have you ever let it sit on a shelf for five years without charging it?
>>IN
>>USE they'll last a long time. If they aren't kept charged they
>>self-discharge below the threshold at which they can be recharged.
>
> As a commercial Li_ion charger designer, I have done a fair amount of both
> cycle
> testing and storage testing. After 2 years at room temperatures, a pack
> of
> three 18650 cells had lost about 10% charge, and that was from full
> charge. The best charge state for long-term storage - and the state in
> which new packs are far more likely to be delivered - will certainly lose
> no more than this.

Was that sitting on a shelf by themselves or installed in a laptop?

> Also, when cell/pack voltage drops below the recharge threshold this does
> NOT
> preclude recharging. Rather, the pack exhibits a high impedance to the
> charger and absorbs only a "qualifying" charge (similar to
> under-temperature behaviour) until that threshold is reached, at which
> time normal charging resumes.
>
> That threshold is not a "death sentence" as you infer. It is applied for
> two
> purposes. Firstly, to protect the cells against further discharge and
> possible
> descent into unstable conditions. Secondly, to ensure that "normal"
> charge levels aren't able to be imposed on cells at that SOC.

So if I had let my Thinkpad charge for _another_ two weeks it would have
charged up? I don't think so.

Don't assume that everybody designs things the same way you would design
them.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 18, 2005 12:21:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Paul Rubin wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> writes:
>
>>FWIW, I encountered this with my old Thinkpad 770, which a friend's daughter
>>was going to take to college with her. It had been sitting for a couple of
>>years, had been working fine when I last turned it on, but was dead and
>>wouldn't charge after sitting. Got a new battery for it and it was fine.
>>She had a tantrum when she found out that the disk wasn't big enough to
>>hold her MP3 collection but that's another story . . .
>
>
> I don't think there's any obstacle to putting a larger disc in a 770.
> I still have a 770 and intend to do that sooner or later. A 770 would
> make a nice mp3 player and I might set mine up that way. It's just
> sitting in a box doing nothing right now.

I too have a T770. Some time ago, the battery went "pop!" which scared
me a bit, so now I run it sans battery.

As for mp3's, I have played them and it does work (but uses up much of
the CPU.) Mp3 encoding, however, would be very painful.

The T770 screen and keyboard, however, are great.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 18, 2005 6:21:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

In message <11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com>, Chris Jones
<lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> writes

>The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from most
>kinds of fire risk.

Anybody know where these chips can be ordered, ideally in the UK ?


Cheers, J/.
--
John Beardmore
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 18, 2005 2:41:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:D bbqol11ghh@news3.newsguy.com...
>
> Seems to depend on the charging circuit too--I have an external charger
for
> Sony Infolithium batteries--if I let them sit too long it won't charge
them
> but they charge fine in the camera.
>

It may be that the no-charge thresholds are a little different. This is to
be expected as electronic circuits cannot be made exactly the same. Of
course it is also possible that the camera has developed a fault and the low
volt charge prevention doesn't work. But as you seem to have succeeded in
charging the battery without it exploding, this would seem unlikely.

Ian.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 18, 2005 2:54:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"budgie" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:p uejd19m88lbuvtttn3ip6sqhk0aap8ifv@4ax.com...
>
> Also, when cell/pack voltage drops below the recharge threshold this does
NOT
> preclude recharging. Rather, the pack exhibits a high impedance to the
charger
> and absorbs only a "qualifying" charge (similar to under-temperature
behaviour)
> until that threshold is reached, at which time normal charging resumes.
>

The low voltage cutoff threshold exists for a very different reason. Part
of the chemical reaction that takes place in a Li-ion type cell causes the
electrolyte to deposit copper on everything and anything including the
insulation between the anode and cathode connections. By and large, this
copper is effectively removed permanently from the reaction. Where such a
cell to be recharged, the copper presents a discharge path. Should
sufficient copper have been deposited, the resultant short circuit current
can cause the cell to explosively destruct. If the cell has not ben in this
state for too long, the copper is thin enough that it gets blown away (like
a fuse).

I have some video of cells charged under such conditions, which would do
much to disuade anyone from risking it.

Ian.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 18, 2005 3:02:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Chris Jones" <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com...
> scrunchy2k@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > A friend who is shutting down his computer store
> > discovered that he literally has has a 5 year old
> > laptop "new" in a sealed box, and he is willing
> > to sell it to me.
> >
> > It's a rare opportunity for me to buy a computer
> > that would be usable, more or less, and it's a
> > model that I've owned and enjoyed in the past.
> >
> > However it does have the two unused batteries in it
> > that have sat never-used for these 5 years.
> >
> > One is a coin-shaped lithium battery, replacement
> > cost $15.
> >
> > The other is a typical Lithium-Ion laptop battery
> > that would cost $150 to replace, if I could even
> > get one.
> >
> > My question is, is there any risk either that
> >
> > (A) either battery has begun leaking acid, keeping
> > in mind that they are lithium-based not Alkaline
> >
> > (B) that either battery may be ready to explode.
> >
> > Thanks for any help!
> The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from most
> kinds of fire risk. I have heard that it is unwise to recharge a lithium
> batter that has flattened below a certain voltage ( I think it was
> 1.5V/cell but can't remember for sure). In any case the chips inside the
> pack would protect you by refusing to recharge if it is dangerous. To be
> on the safe side, for the first couple of charge-discharge cycles, you
> could keep it in a non-flamable area e.g. on a concrete or metal surface
> and supervise it.
>

It's actually 3.0 volts per cell (but some early chemistries allowed 2.5
volts).

The advice about the non flammble area is good, but that needs to be
extended to ensure that there is nothing flammable with 2 metres of the
battery. The flame jet from a ruptured cell can typically be 4 long, and as
it is fuelled by pressurised electrolyte and internally generated oxygen, it
is quite impossible to extinguish it.

As a general rule, if the protection circuit allows you to charge it, you
should be OK. If it doesn't, then this battery has been around long enough
that it should be discarded.

Ian.
July 18, 2005 3:12:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:00:27 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:

>budgie wrote:
>
>> On 15 Jul 2005 18:30:09 -0700, Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt;
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> writes:
>>>> Lithium batteries are more stable and last longer than any other
>>>> battery chemical system. There are plenty of 10-year old lithium
>>>> batteries that are still alive and kicking.
>>>
>>>We're talking about lithium ion rechargeable batteries, not lithium
>>>primaries. The rechargeables do lose capacity over time, especially
>>>at high temperatures.
>>
>> and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old
>> lithium-ion
>> batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one in an Acer laptop
>> that is 9-odd years old and still delivers over half its intial rated
>> endurance.
>
>Have you ever let it sit on a shelf for five years without charging it? IN
>USE they'll last a long time. If they aren't kept charged they
>self-discharge below the threshold at which they can be recharged.

As a commercial Li_ion charger designer, I have done a fair amount of both cycle
testing and storage testing. After 2 years at room temperatures, a pack of
three 18650 cells had lost about 10% charge, and that was from full charge. The
best charge state for long-term storage - and the state in which new packs are
far more likely to be delivered - will certainly lose no more than this.

Also, when cell/pack voltage drops below the recharge threshold this does NOT
preclude recharging. Rather, the pack exhibits a high impedance to the charger
and absorbs only a "qualifying" charge (similar to under-temperature behaviour)
until that threshold is reached, at which time normal charging resumes.

That threshold is not a "death sentence" as you infer. It is applied for two
purposes. Firstly, to protect the cells against further discharge and possible
descent into unstable conditions. Secondly, to ensure that "normal" charge
levels aren't able to be imposed on cells at that SOC.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 18, 2005 3:16:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

In sci.chem.electrochem.battery John Beardmore <wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com>, Chris Jones
> <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> writes
>
>>The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from most
>>kinds of fire risk.
>
> Anybody know where these chips can be ordered, ideally in the UK ?

You can't order them, they are fully custom chips (or at least enough
of them are that you can't generally replace them), plus there is no
data.
Some manufacturers even use digital signatures, so that 'counterfiet'
batteries are impossible.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 19, 2005 2:06:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

In message <42db8fa4$0$18021$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Ian
Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> writes
>In sci.chem.electrochem.battery John Beardmore
><wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com>, Chris Jones
>> <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> writes

>>>The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from most
>>>kinds of fire risk.
>>
>> Anybody know where these chips can be ordered, ideally in the UK ?
>
>You can't order them, they are fully custom chips (or at least enough
>of them are that you can't generally replace them), plus there is no
>data.
>Some manufacturers even use digital signatures, so that 'counterfiet'
>batteries are impossible.

Hmmm... We had one manufacturer willing to give us some last year, then
they sacked their staff, closed the plant, and moved production to
China. Bummer...


Cheers, J/.
--
John Beardmore
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 20, 2005 12:47:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

They cannot be ordered, they are custom programmed microprocessor chips
with firmware specific to the battery in question.


John Beardmore wrote:

> In message <11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com>, Chris Jones
> <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> writes
>
>> The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from most
>> kinds of fire risk.
>
>
> Anybody know where these chips can be ordered, ideally in the UK ?
>
>
> Cheers, J/.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 20, 2005 12:47:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

Barry Watzman wrote:
> They cannot be ordered, they are custom programmed microprocessor chips
> with firmware specific to the battery in question.

This is not quite true. In fact, the entire evaluation kit including
the ICs and other periferals can be ordered, for example:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/bq20z80.htm...
or see also similar folder for bq2084.

Of cause TI is not going to send out a single chip,
but distributors might, for some extra price.

Btw z80 is the impedance track gas-gauge, so it can adapt to
battery itself. It will get all needed parameters, if proper conditions
for first discharge are provided (see appnotes on the site).

Regards,
Yevgen


>
>
> John Beardmore wrote:
>
>> In message <11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com>, Chris Jones
>> <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> writes
>>
>>> The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from
>>> most
>>> kinds of fire risk.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anybody know where these chips can be ordered, ideally in the UK ?
>>
>>
>> Cheers, J/.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 20, 2005 1:44:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

In sci.chem.electrochem.battery Evgenij Barsukov <evgenij_b_no_spam@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Barry Watzman wrote:
>> They cannot be ordered, they are custom programmed microprocessor chips
>> with firmware specific to the battery in question.
>
> This is not quite true. In fact, the entire evaluation kit including
> the ICs and other periferals can be ordered, for example:

I read the original thread as "can I make new compatible batteries", in
which case the answer is generally right, no you can't.
July 20, 2005 9:52:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 20:47:09 GMT, Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com>
wrote:

>They cannot be ordered, they are custom programmed microprocessor chips
>with firmware specific to the battery in question.

Barry, the ones we sourced in proto quantities back in late 2002 weren't
micro-based. Can possibly dig out the URL if it's still here.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 21, 2005 6:46:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

You can get the chip, but it is very unlikely to have the same firmware
on it as would the same chip [programmed differently] in an actual OEM
battery.


Evgenij Barsukov wrote:

> Barry Watzman wrote:
>
>> They cannot be ordered, they are custom programmed microprocessor
>> chips with firmware specific to the battery in question.
>
>
> This is not quite true. In fact, the entire evaluation kit including
> the ICs and other periferals can be ordered, for example:
>
> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/bq20z80.htm...
> or see also similar folder for bq2084.
>
> Of cause TI is not going to send out a single chip,
> but distributors might, for some extra price.
>
> Btw z80 is the impedance track gas-gauge, so it can adapt to
> battery itself. It will get all needed parameters, if proper conditions
> for first discharge are provided (see appnotes on the site).
>
> Regards,
> Yevgen
>
>
>>
>>
>> John Beardmore wrote:
>>
>>> In message <11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com>, Chris Jones
>>> <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> writes
>>>
>>>> The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you from
>>>> most
>>>> kinds of fire risk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anybody know where these chips can be ordered, ideally in the UK ?
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, J/.
>
>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 21, 2005 3:48:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

This might apply to some different arthitectures that use
general purpose microcontrollers, but not to BQ ICs like bq2084 or z80.
These are specialized ICs for sole purpose of battery management,
and the chip with same part number will always have same firmware
(apart for some customizations in the data-flash, or version number).

Regards,
Evgenij

Barry Watzman wrote:
> You can get the chip, but it is very unlikely to have the same firmware
> on it as would the same chip [programmed differently] in an actual OEM
> battery.
>
>
> Evgenij Barsukov wrote:
>
>> Barry Watzman wrote:
>>
>>> They cannot be ordered, they are custom programmed microprocessor
>>> chips with firmware specific to the battery in question.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is not quite true. In fact, the entire evaluation kit including
>> the ICs and other periferals can be ordered, for example:
>>
>> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/bq20z80.htm...
>> or see also similar folder for bq2084.
>>
>> Of cause TI is not going to send out a single chip,
>> but distributors might, for some extra price.
>>
>> Btw z80 is the impedance track gas-gauge, so it can adapt to
>> battery itself. It will get all needed parameters, if proper
>> conditions for first discharge are provided (see appnotes on the site).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Yevgen
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Beardmore wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <11djdeh9l8rts71@corp.supernews.com>, Chris Jones
>>>> <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> writes
>>>>
>>>>> The battery pack will have a few chips inside it to protect you
>>>>> from most
>>>>> kinds of fire risk.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anybody know where these chips can be ordered, ideally in the UK ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, J/.
>>
>>
>>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
July 25, 2005 1:42:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

In article <1c7hd1h3d9ktnl32unt4s1b6oqgo9rlgi6@4ax.com>,
budgie <me@privacy.net> wrote:

| and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old
| lithium-ion batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one
| in an Acer laptop that is 9-odd years old and still delivers over
| half its intial rated endurance.

If it's 9 years old, are you sure the battery is really lithium-ion?
If I recall correctly, most laptops used NiMH or NiCd cells 9 years
ago.

As for LiIon cells, from what I've seen, they tend to be mostly dead
after two years, used or not.

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzy.com
You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.
July 25, 2005 3:00:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.laptops,sci.electronics.misc,sci.chem.electrochem.battery (More info?)

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:42:41 GMT, dougmc@frenzy.com (Doug McLaren) wrote:

>In article <1c7hd1h3d9ktnl32unt4s1b6oqgo9rlgi6@4ax.com>,
>budgie <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>| and to clarify what Barry said, "There are plenty of 10-year old
>| lithium-ion batteries that are still alive and kicking." I have one
>| in an Acer laptop that is 9-odd years old and still delivers over
>| half its intial rated endurance.
>
>If it's 9 years old, are you sure the battery is really lithium-ion?
>If I recall correctly, most laptops used NiMH or NiCd cells 9 years
>ago.

Maybe most did, I can't comment. But this one sure is Li-Ion.

>As for LiIon cells, from what I've seen, they tend to be mostly dead
>after two years, used or not.

Our experiences differ dramatically.
!