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Canon 20D, final verdict?

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Anonymous
March 25, 2005 1:01:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D. Have all the problems
settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?

Thanks,
Bill Crocker
March 25, 2005 7:20:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <XKqdnWI8RouZ4t7fRVn-oQ@comcast.com>
"Bill Crocker" <wcrocker007@comcast.net> wrote:

> I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D.
> Have all the problems settled down, and been
> resolved through updated firmware?

That depends on who you ask. Regardless, the
camera you buy today will be out dated tomorrow. :) 

A 300D with a new shutter is a fine backup to
my 20D. Can't wait to demote the 20D into the
backup position...

Jeff
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 8:16:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Bill Crocker" <wcrocker007@comcast.net> wrote in
news:XKqdnWI8RouZ4t7fRVn-oQ@comcast.com:

> I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D.

If you're in the Houston pro photography market, buy something else,
please.

> Have all the
> problems settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?

Of course not.

Show me a perfect camera and I'll show you opium dreams.

There is, however, nothing that can touch it in the price range, and that's
been true since the day it was released.
Related resources
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 11:48:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I have not had a single problem with my 20D and I have had it in use
since Spetember. Some people have had various problems, but the problem
traffic at www.dpreview.com has died down to an insignificant level. It
is my guess that 98% of everybody who bought this camera has had
absolutely no problems with it. I find my 20D an excellent dSLR.
March 25, 2005 3:48:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Bill Crocker" <wcrocker007@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XKqdnWI8RouZ4t7fRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
> I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D. Have all the problems
> settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill Crocker
>

It appears not Bill....

I'm going to wait until Nikon bring out something to replace the D100 - and
no, before you all flame me, I don't consider the D70 to be the D100
replacement - it's a 300D competitor.

Si.
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 3:54:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Si" <simon@dontbotherspamming.thisaddress> wrote in message
news:D 2119r$ni4$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Bill Crocker" <wcrocker007@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:XKqdnWI8RouZ4t7fRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
>> I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D. Have all the problems
>> settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill Crocker
>>
>
> It appears not Bill....
>
> I'm going to wait until Nikon bring out something to replace the D100 -
> and no, before you all flame me, I don't consider the D70 to be the D100
> replacement - it's a 300D competitor.
>
> Si.
>

No, it's really not a 300D competitor, but it is not a D100 replacement
either. I would put it in between the two.
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 4:22:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill Crocker wrote:
> I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D. Have all the
> problems settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?

We don't live in a perfect world. All problems in firmware will never
be resolved and certainly all problems are never limited to firmware.

It the 20D a mature product not having an unusual number of problems,
yes. Of course about the same time any camera or computer equipment of any
type becomes mature with few problems; it will be replaced in a couple of
weeks. :-)


>
> Thanks,
> Bill Crocker

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
March 25, 2005 6:33:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:ZRT0e.2905$Pc.1304@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "Si" <simon@dontbotherspamming.thisaddress> wrote in message
> news:D 2119r$ni4$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "Bill Crocker" <wcrocker007@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:XKqdnWI8RouZ4t7fRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
>>> I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D. Have all the
>>> problems settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bill Crocker
>>>
>>
>> It appears not Bill....
>>
>> I'm going to wait until Nikon bring out something to replace the D100 -
>> and no, before you all flame me, I don't consider the D70 to be the D100
>> replacement - it's a 300D competitor.
>>
>> Si.
>>
>
> No, it's really not a 300D competitor, but it is not a D100 replacement
> either. I would put it in between the two.
>
>
>

I've changed my mind after handling a colleague's D2H...I don't like the
handling at all...

So, rather than spend a grand plus on a 20D and grip, I'm going to be rash
and get a 1D Mk II

Si.
March 26, 2005 2:53:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <d21au4$egs$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
"Si" <simon@dontbotherspamming.thisaddress> wrote:

> ...
>
> So, rather than spend a grand plus on a 20D and grip,
> I'm going to be rash and get a 1D Mk II

If it's that easy dollar wise, consider a 1Ds Mark II. When you want
to simulate a 1D Mark II sports machine reduce the captured file to
JPEG quality 8 at 3600x2400. More frames before the buffer fills (ie
faster operation) similar to the 1D Mark II. (It might even out
perform it but no one has compared the two that I know of.)

Extra benefits include a 100% sensor AND 100% viewfinder, 17.2
megapixels, and probably other stuff too. :^)

Jeff
March 26, 2005 2:55:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <AgU0e.1342$nC.131@fe1.columbus.rr.com>
"Joseph Meehan" <sligojoe_Spamno@hotmail.com> wrote:

> ...
> We don't live in a perfect world.
> All problems in firmware will never be resolved

Firmware only problems CAN be resolved.

> and certainly all problems are never limited to firmware.
> ...

True that.

Jeff
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 5:08:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Confused wrote:
> In message <AgU0e.1342$nC.131@fe1.columbus.rr.com>
> "Joseph Meehan" <sligojoe_Spamno@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> We don't live in a perfect world.
>> All problems in firmware will never be resolved
>
> Firmware only problems CAN be resolved.

But you know they are not likely to ever get them all 100% before the
camera is ancient history.

>
>> and certainly all problems are never limited to firmware.
>> ...
>
> True that.
>
> Jeff

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 5:49:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <AgU0e.1342$nC.131@fe1.columbus.rr.com>,
"Joseph Meehan" <sligojoe_Spamno@hotmail.com> wrote:

> It the 20D a mature product not having an unusual number of problems,
>yes. Of course about the same time any camera or computer equipment of any
>type becomes mature with few problems; it will be replaced in a couple of
>weeks. :-)

Fortunately, the biggest real problem of the 20D (for me), is the noise
banding in dark shadow areas, which is addressable in conversion
software. RSE supposedly gets rid of it pretty well with its noise
reduction, but I don't think it is attacking the root of the problem,
which is that every line of RAW data is slightly offset from its
neighbors in the readout bias, but all current converters use a single
value to unbias it, causing some RAW lines to be slightly brighter or
darker than others, making the noise more intense in some lines than
others, and for red and blue values especially, the noise inconsistency
is propagated to neighboring lines.

Well, the other thing is that the shutter sounds like a mousetrap. I
doubt that will ever be fixed. My 10D sounds like a P&S compared to my
20D.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 5:54:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <1111769311.622773.13030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
MitchAlsup@aol.com wrote:

>I have not had a single problem with my 20D and I have had it in use
>since Spetember. Some people have had various problems, but the problem
>traffic at www.dpreview.com has died down to an insignificant level. It
>is my guess that 98% of everybody who bought this camera has had
>absolutely no problems with it. I find my 20D an excellent dSLR.

It depends on your threshold for complaint. The banding issue is
nothing short of pathetic, IMO. There is no excuse for Canon letting
the camera out of the gates without at least addressing blackpoint
line-by-line in its own software. It gives me the feeling that the
company is a bunch of disconnected departments, and the the part that
makes the excellent sensor has never explained to the part that makes
the readout circuitry or the JPEG-writing firmware that one single
blackpoint value does not work well for the entire image.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
March 26, 2005 6:57:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

JPS@no.komm wrote:
> In message <1111769311.622773.13030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> MitchAlsup@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>>I have not had a single problem with my 20D and I have had it in use
>>since Spetember. Some people have had various problems, but the problem
>>traffic at www.dpreview.com has died down to an insignificant level. It
>>is my guess that 98% of everybody who bought this camera has had
>>absolutely no problems with it. I find my 20D an excellent dSLR.
>
>
> It depends on your threshold for complaint. The banding issue is
> nothing short of pathetic, IMO. There is no excuse for Canon letting
> the camera out of the gates without at least addressing blackpoint
> line-by-line in its own software. It gives me the feeling that the
> company is a bunch of disconnected departments, and the the part that
> makes the excellent sensor has never explained to the part that makes
> the readout circuitry or the JPEG-writing firmware that one single
> blackpoint value does not work well for the entire image.


The banding occurs in 1DMKII and 1DsMKII as well. I think this is
pushing the limit of the CMOS and we're seeing noise, rather than
signal. It should happen only when pushing very high ISO though.
March 26, 2005 8:06:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <pu31e.1386$nC.113@fe1.columbus.rr.com>
"Joseph Meehan" <sligojoe_Spamno@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Confused wrote:
> >> ...
> >> We don't live in a perfect world.
> >> All problems in firmware will never be resolved
> >
> > Firmware only problems CAN be resolved.
>
> But you know they are not likely to ever get them
> all 100% before the camera is ancient history.

Taking into consideration current-day big
business work ethics I have to agree with you. :( 

Jeff
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 8:28:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <z451e.4929$H06.3412@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
leo <someone@somewhere.net> wrote:

>The banding occurs in 1DMKII and 1DsMKII as well. I think this is
>pushing the limit of the CMOS and we're seeing noise, rather than
>signal. It should happen only when pushing very high ISO though.

Not at all. This is not noise; it is *modulation* of the noise, caused
by the lack of an insanely simple arithmetic adjustment that needs to be
applied on a line-by-line basis. I've seen the solution in action,
already, in a doctored version of DCRAW. It is not a sensor problem,
per se. It is a hardware problem reading the RAW data off the sensor,
with a workable software solution. The solution is as simple as adding
1 to all the RAW values on line 3, subtracting 3 from all RAW values on
line 7, etc. It's really that simple, but it got by Canon completely.

The sensors in these cameras are much better than what the camera's
JPEGs and external RAW conversions are currently churning out. Nothing
draws one's attention more to noise than simple geometric modulations of
it. The random noise of the sensor, when properly read, is only strong
when the image is viewed at magnification. The banding patterns do
*not* disappear with minor downsampling.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 11:49:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill Crocker wrote:

> I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D. Have all the problems
> settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?

I got mine about 10 days ago, and it came with firmware 1.1.0. It got upset
for the first (and so far only) time yesterday, flashing Err99 at me. I
took out the battery and put it back in and it was happy again.

I'm a software engineer by trade and I've worked on embedded systems. The
software (and custom hardware) inside a device like a DSLR is going to be
incredibly complex, and therefore unlikely to be bug free. I've a feeling
that Canon pushed the product out before the software guys were really
ready. I've been there myself.

I suspect most of the issues have now been resolved. I'd certainly recommend
the camera to anyone. Dodgy firmware is no longer a reason to hold off
buying one if you want one.

--
The email address used to post is a spam pit. Contact me at
http://www.derekfountain.org : <a
href="http://www.derekfountain.org/">Derek Fountain</a>
March 26, 2005 12:53:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Confused" <somebody@someplace.somenet> wrote in message
news:p 18941plp4pa3dgjcvhif4545ak7a53ep9@4ax.com...
> In message <d21au4$egs$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>
> "Si" <simon@dontbotherspamming.thisaddress> wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>> So, rather than spend a grand plus on a 20D and grip,
>> I'm going to be rash and get a 1D Mk II
>
> If it's that easy dollar wise, consider a 1Ds Mark II. When you want
> to simulate a 1D Mark II sports machine reduce the captured file to
> JPEG quality 8 at 3600x2400. More frames before the buffer fills (ie
> faster operation) similar to the 1D Mark II. (It might even out
> perform it but no one has compared the two that I know of.)
>
> Extra benefits include a 100% sensor AND 100% viewfinder, 17.2
> megapixels, and probably other stuff too. :^)
>
> Jeff

I'd love a 1Ds Mark II, but UK price for the 1D Mark II is around £2700,
whereas it's another 3 grand for the 's'...

That's some chunk of cash.

Si.
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 9:50:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

JPS@no.komm wrote:

> In message <z451e.4929$H06.3412@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> leo <someone@somewhere.net> wrote:
>
>
>>The banding occurs in 1DMKII and 1DsMKII as well. I think this is
>>pushing the limit of the CMOS and we're seeing noise, rather than
>>signal. It should happen only when pushing very high ISO though.
>
>
> Not at all. This is not noise; it is *modulation* of the noise, caused
> by the lack of an insanely simple arithmetic adjustment that needs to be
> applied on a line-by-line basis. I've seen the solution in action,
> already, in a doctored version of DCRAW.

Any chance of a link to this?


Rob.
--
Images http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 9:50:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <AB71e.12861$1S4.1340851@news.xtra.co.nz>,
Rob Davison <rdavison@xxttrraa.ccoo.nnzz> wrote:

>Any chance of a link to this?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&m...
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
March 26, 2005 9:50:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

OK, would someone please tell me how to demonstrate the banding issue on my
Canon 20D? I am not one to say it does not exist because I have not seen
it; if others have seen it I will take their word for it. However, in nearly
1000 images so far on my 20D I have not yet seen it so I would like to
purposely set up some shots under conditions under which I will see the
banding. First, what flash settings will I need to use to see the banding?
And, of even greater interest to me is others saying that a non flash
banding problem exists. I have lots of high ISO images, including some at
1600 and have not seen banding. So, second, what non-flash settings will I
need to use to see the banding?
Chuck
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 8:03:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <4vid415vt0h8osedgupp5o388sq7v4teuk@4ax.com>,
JPS@no.komm wrote:

>Most (if not all) current RAW formats include the masked border
>pixels, so any RAW converter that really wants to can do line-by-line
>blackpoint, but none seem to be doing it yet (none with lots of
>user-control and a GUI, anyway).

Actually, I just remembered that the programmer of ACR said that he was
using line-by-line blackpoint in ACR for some older cameras. It hadn't
occured to him to use it for recent DSLRs, though.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 11:19:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

MitchAlsup@aol.com wrote:
> I have not had a single problem with my 20D and I have had it in use
> since Spetember. Some people have had various problems, but the problem
> traffic at www.dpreview.com has died down to an insignificant level. It
> is my guess that 98% of everybody who bought this camera has had
> absolutely no problems with it. I find my 20D an excellent dSLR.
>

Ditto. I just bought a 580 flash and am contemplating the 10-22mm w/a
zoom. I did update the firmware to the latest but never experienced
lockups or focus issues before that.

Pics at www.flickr.com/photos/chipgallo

Chip Gallo
www.chipster.biz
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 11:19:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

MitchAlsup@aol.com wrote:
> I have not had a single problem with my 20D and I have had it in use
> since Spetember. Some people have had various problems, but the problem
> traffic at www.dpreview.com has died down to an insignificant level. It
> is my guess that 98% of everybody who bought this camera has had
> absolutely no problems with it. I find my 20D an excellent dSLR.
>
Ditto. I just bought a 580 flash and am contemplating the 10-22mm w/a
zoom. I did update the firmware to the latest but never experienced
lockups or focus issues before that.

Pics at www.flickr.com/photos/chipgallo

Chip Gallo
www.chipster.biz
!