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Seeking upgrade advice - SLI or new card??? see details

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June 24, 2011 5:46:44 PM

my scenario:

i5 760
8gb ram

gigabyte super OC 470
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Absolutely love the card, it's a beast. unique design sets it above every other 470 (arguably, if you will)

My setup has been able to eat up every game I've thrown at it on max'ed settings 1920x1080

Back in October of last year when I built my computer my approach was to get a powerful single card with the option for SLI later - I don't even really think I need an upgrade quite yet, however this particular model 470 seems to be pretty hard to find - there's like one store that sells them and there was ONE on ebay last time I checked.

So basically, when it's time to upgrade would I do better from a value/performance standpoint to add an additional 470 or seek a new card or cards altogether. I guess my idea was that by adding another 470 I would not be negating the value of the one I've already purchased.

Thoughts??
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 24, 2011 6:12:35 PM

By the time your 470 cant cope anymore there will be single cards out there that are a decent enough upgrade to warrant upgrading. Also consider that games are not really getting that much more demanding.
Personally I like to wait until the card I have still has a resale value and there are decent upgrades available then sell the old card to offset the cost of the new one.

Mactronix :) 
a b U Graphics card
June 24, 2011 6:34:28 PM

If/when you need it, the i5-760 will become the limiting factor.
Related resources
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 24, 2011 8:01:21 PM

DXRick said:
If/when you need it, the i5-760 will become the limiting factor.



No NO NO [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1]

Mactronix :pfff: 
June 24, 2011 8:22:48 PM

mactronix said:
No NO NO [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1]

Mactronix :pfff: 


Yes, I did not want to hear that my proc will inhibit my video card upgrade.

I need a greater understanding of how far I can push my video card setup and increase gaming performance within the confines of my i5 760/asus p7p55d-e pro proc/mobo combo. The chipset on my mobo is of course already outdated. In what degree do these have to be upgraded in unison???

However I do know that users have been wildly successful in OC'ing the i5 760. I have played around with it a bit and pushed it up from the stock 2.8 up to 3.4 with temps maxing out with 70c at full load with hyper 212+ cooler (side note - is that good?)
June 25, 2011 12:27:23 AM

mactronix said:
While this isn't directly relevant, in as much as it dosent include teh hardware we are discussing i hope it will show that you have no need to worry.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/core-i3-gaming,2588...

This link and the others linked to should help your understanding as well, please take a look at all 4
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/balanced-gaming-pc-...

Mactronix :) 


Thanks for the good articles. Makes me feel better about my setup. I wish there was an easier way to see how X proc will run with X video card with X amount of RAM etc to see how well an upgrade would work out as new stuff comes out... but with so many combinations thats difficult to catalog i guess. There's prob a thread on it somewhere
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 25, 2011 8:38:24 AM

No there isn't.
I actually went to Toms with the idea that they do a chart much like the ones they do now which was basically guide for just what you are asking.
It would test at what point a GPU upgrade would be pointless without a CPU upgrade as well. Ram wasn't a factor in my initial suggestion but is a good idea.
Any way the idea went to the guys at the top and they sent me back the links i sent to you.


Mactronix :) 
June 27, 2011 5:24:56 PM

mactronix said:
No there isn't.
I actually went to Toms with the idea that they do a chart much like the ones they do now which was basically guide for just what you are asking.
It would test at what point a GPU upgrade would be pointless without a CPU upgrade as well. Ram wasn't a factor in my initial suggestion but is a good idea.
Any way the idea went to the guys at the top and they sent me back the links i sent to you.


Mactronix :) 


That's too bad, because that would be really helpful, a lot of people would appreciate it.

I might go to them as well. Maybe if enough people suggest it they'll come around!
June 27, 2011 5:35:25 PM

mactronix said:
No there isn't.
I actually went to Toms with the idea that they do a chart much like the ones they do now which was basically guide for just what you are asking.
It would test at what point a GPU upgrade would be pointless without a CPU upgrade as well. Ram wasn't a factor in my initial suggestion but is a good idea.
Any way the idea went to the guys at the top and they sent me back the links i sent to you.


Mactronix :) 


Acutally I just found your thread on the matter and commented. Let's see some more support for this!

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/21366-9-best-matching...
a b U Graphics card
June 27, 2011 6:25:33 PM

mactronix said:
No NO NO [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1]

Mactronix :pfff: 


For gaming, the 760 is on a par with the i3-2100. Here is a benchmark for SC II using a GTX 480 @ 1080P. Here is one for Metro 2033.

These two games are CPU dependent and will choke an 13-2100 during heavy action (see min FPS).

I rest my case. :sol: 
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 10:33:23 AM

DXRick said:
For gaming, the 760 is on a par with the i3-2100. Here is a benchmark for SC II using a GTX 480 @ 1080P. Here is one for Metro 2033.

These two games are CPU dependent and will choke an 13-2100 during heavy action (see min FPS).

I rest my case. :sol: 


Your proving nothing my friend, please don't ever become a lawyer :lol: 

Mactronix :D 
June 28, 2011 1:16:40 PM

mactronix said:
Your proving nothing my friend, please don't ever become a lawyer :lol: 

Mactronix :D 


Mactronix, while I want you to be right (because I own an i5 760), I'd be curious to hear some points on how you reach this opinion. Please enlighten us. DXRick did link some articles that more or less besmirch the 760 with guilt by association.
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 1:36:22 PM

2 cherry picked benchmarks that are not even designed to check for what we are talking about hardly provide a compelling case. I'm just off out but i will answer your request later.
Start by looking at the specs of the CPU's in question. You cant over clock the i3 but its stock speed is faster than the 760 which is why it seems a fair comparison. the 760 on the other hand is A natively quad cored while the i3 is a duo with MT and the 760 can clock up to 4 GHZ

Later
Mactronix :) 
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 3:02:19 PM

Other things to consider.
How much harder to run do you think games are going to get ? Not much is the quick answer as just about everything these days is console ported. Sure there are exceptions.
Take a look at the 3rd part of the balanced platform article, it includes an OCed 750 and yours is a few Mhz better being a 760.
The article uses a 5970 among others, thats a dual GPU. SLI 470's are a little better depending on the game but seriously look at the info you already have. Can you seriously see even giving an overly generous 25% increase to the 470's see any reason to think that anythings going to "Choke" your CPU ?
Take a look at overclocking numbers http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-phenom...

Mactronix :) 
a b U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 6:19:54 PM

DXRick said:
For gaming, the 760 is on a par with the i3-2100. Here is a benchmark for SC II using a GTX 480 @ 1080P. Here is one for Metro 2033.

These two games are CPU dependent and will choke an 13-2100 during heavy action (see min FPS).

I rest my case. :sol: 


Please stop suggesting the 760 will bottleneck anything. It's a beastly processor and will handle anything out there. It's an i7 without hyperthreading.

If it does become a bottleneck after a few years you can overclock it to i5-2500 speeds.
a b U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 7:37:54 PM

Of course I cherry picked those two games! They are the only ones that will test his system at 1080P.

When I built my i7-950 system last year, I chose an HD 6870, with a motherboard and PSU that would allow me to add another. I looked at MANY GPU charts, and concluded that I could run everything (except maybe those two games) at 1080P. If a game had a problem at 1080P, I could run at 1680 x 1050. I also noticed that those two games are the only ones that test CPUs.

Back to the OP's question: Should he add another 470 to play games at 1080P?

The 470 is faster than my HD 6870. The OP is asking about the future, suggesting he is having no problems now playing games at 1080P. The only games that currently test a GPU at 1080P also test CPUs. However, the OP did not say he is having problems playing games now, and we don't know if he is playing those two titles. He is concerned about future games.

Should he try and obtain another very rare gigabyte super OC 470?

He said "My setup has been able to eat up every game I've thrown at it on max'ed settings 1920x1080."

I said "If/when you need it, the i5-760 will become the limiting factor."

Or to put it another way: If a game comes out that you cannot play at 1080P, I imagine that it will also need a faster CPU. I am extrapolating from I have seen with the only two games that test CPUs and GPUs at 1080P. Being a programmer, I know that SC II tests CPUs because of all the processing it must do every frame to animate hundreds of objects (AI, physics, path-finding, special effects, etc.) . I don't know why Metro 2033 is such a beast.

Now you are all just arguing with me, without even answering the OP's question.

So, should he try to get another 470 or not??? I say NO.
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 7:52:54 PM

I don't much care if you were lead programmer on every AAA game for the last 5 years, suggesting that the i5 760 will limit dual 470's is just ridiculous.

The actual question was
Quote:
So basically, when it's time to upgrade would I do better from a value/performance standpoint to add an additional 470 or seek a new card or cards altogether. I guess my idea was that by adding another 470 I would not be negating the value of the one I've already purchased.


So not just a plain do i SLI 470's then as you are suggesting.

My answer
Quote:
By the time your 470 cant cope anymore there will be single cards out there that are a decent enough upgrade to warrant upgrading. Also consider that games are not really getting that much more demanding.


Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I suggest you now realize you were wrong to state what you did and like many on these pages you are not a big enough person to say "Hey you know what your right my bad" so have resorted to posting the usual bluster in an effort to push the discussion away from you being wrong :pfff: 

Mactronix :) 
a b U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 8:20:05 PM

I didn't say that 470 SLI will be limited by the 760 CPU. Adding another would almost double the FPS of most games. It would be mandatory at 2650 x 1600. Here is a chart showing this. The chart shows that at 1080P all games are above 30 minimum FPS (except Crysis Warhead at 29).

Anything above 30 FPS is unnoticeable.

a b U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 8:34:06 PM

DXRick said:
Anything above 30 FPS is unnoticeable.


:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 9:28:46 PM

DXRick said:
I didn't say that 470 SLI will be limited by the 760 CPU. Adding another would almost double the FPS of most games. It would be mandatory at 2650 x 1600. Here is a chart showing this. The chart shows that at 1080P all games are above 30 minimum FPS (except Crysis Warhead at 29).

Anything above 30 FPS is unnoticeable.



Please stop now you are making yourself look very foolish and are just trashing the thread to massage your bruised ego.

@
muckle

I have given you my advice and all the info you should need to make an informed choice. maybe you could PM me if you need further advice. I don't want to play up to this clown anymore.
Good luck with which ever route you choose.

Mactronix :) 
a c 271 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 10:11:23 PM

DXRick said:
I didn't say that 470 SLI will be limited by the 760 CPU. Adding another would almost double the FPS of most games. It would be mandatory at 2650 x 1600. Here is a chart showing this. The chart shows that at 1080P all games are above 30 minimum FPS (except Crysis Warhead at 29).

Anything above 30 FPS is unnoticeable.


:pfff: 
a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 4:34:09 AM

mactronix said:
Please stop now you are making yourself look very foolish and are just trashing the thread to massage your bruised ego.

@
muckle

I have given you my advice and all the info you should need to make an informed choice. maybe you could PM me if you need further advice. I don't want to play up to this clown anymore.
Good luck with which ever route you choose.

Mactronix :) 

I will gladly admit I am a wrong, if you can provide some link or info that shows it. You are the one that is resorting to name calling, without any info to back it up. I am simply repeating what I have read over the years on various computer and gaming sites.

And, yes, my ego feels slighted when some obnoxious know it all child attacks me instead of attacking what I am saying and providing some info to prove his point. I have been wrong many times in my life, but I enjoy being corrected, because I want to know what the truth is.

For example, these replies do nothing to help me see the errors of my ways:

No NO NO [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1]
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 
:pfff: 
June 29, 2011 4:04:15 PM

Oh Lord what have I done....

Yeaaah Toms needs to reconsider that "how far can your proc take your GPU" article. Something a bit more authoritative here could reduce the vitriol.

I thank everyone for their opinions.

In any case I'll be hanging on to my current setup a while, until it starts inhibiting gaming really. Then I'll take a look at the hardware landscape. Essentially I'll have to revisit the issue lol.

And for the record my current setup runs SCII on maxed out settings smooth as silk.
a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 6:58:29 PM

I am still wondering how I can be wrong when I point out that the 760 has a min FPS of 29 in Crysis Warhead (attempting to show that the CPU can be limited in current games), and I am wrong again when I say that FPS above 30 is not noticeable.

But, I have encountered "experts" like this before on the internet and doubt I will get an intelligent answer.
a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 7:14:18 PM

DXRick said:
I didn't say that 470 SLI will be limited by the 760 CPU.



except that,

DXRick said:
If/when you need it, the i5-760 will become the limiting factor.



lolololol make up your mind.



a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 7:21:08 PM

DXRick said:
I am still wondering how I can be wrong when I point out that the 760 has a min FPS of 29 in Crysis Warhead (attempting to show that the CPU can be limited in current games), and I am wrong again when I say that FPS above 30 is not noticeable.

But, I have encountered "experts" like this before on the internet and doubt I will get an intelligent answer.



Search Crysis at 30Fps, and then search Crysis at 60Fps.

Though you may be semi-correct on the other points, you are completely wrong about anything above 30Fps is unnoticeable.
a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 7:23:44 PM

yummerzzz said:
Search Crysis at 30Fps, and then search Crysis at 60Fps.

Though you may be semi-correct on the other points, you are completely wrong about anything above 30Fps is unnoticeable.


well yeah he's very wrong about that, but thats typical "i heard it once so it must be right" talk. the human eye can absolutely notice above 30fps. the human eye can interpret the differences of up to 55-56 fps to be exact. although above 30 fps is considered "fluid motion" there is still a noticeable difference up until 55-56 fps. although anything above that is just icing.

sources: im an Ophthalmologist so suck it.
a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 8:14:22 PM

OK, I am wrong. I did a google search and found that although most people say 30 FPS is enough, others say you need 50+ for FPS and multi-player games.

And no, I won't suck it.
a c 130 U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 8:18:55 PM

DXRick said:
I will gladly admit I am a wrong, if you can provide some link or info that shows it. You are the one that is resorting to name calling, without any info to back it up. I am simply repeating what I have read over the years on various computer and gaming sites.

And, yes, my ego feels slighted when some obnoxious know it all child attacks me instead of attacking what I am saying and providing some info to prove his point. I have been wrong many times in my life, but I enjoy being corrected, because I want to know what the truth is.

For example, these replies do nothing to help me see the errors of my ways:

No NO NO [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1] [:lectrocrew:1]
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 
:pfff: 



Like it or not you are wrong, i have posted 7 full articles, 4 specifically focusing on the subject at hand or links to them that show you are wrong.
You just keep cherry picking irrelevant articles from dredging the net feverishly trying to find something to back your statement up.
I have not called you a single name, i think that if you read the thread you will see that you just started that little game.

Look at the weight of posts not one backing up what you are saying, how many will it take for you to see. ?

@ mousemonkey,

As long as its ok with muckle, there seems to be a decision made so i think it might be a good place to leave this little discussion ? Unless your enjoying it that is ?

Mactronix :) 


a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 8:19:51 PM

Or just don't post and let him talk to himself.
a c 271 U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 8:34:16 PM

mactronix said:
Like it or not you are wrong, i have posted 7 full articles, 4 specifically focusing on the subject at hand or links to them that show you are wrong.
You just keep cherry picking irrelevant articles from dredging the net feverishly trying to find something to back your statement up.
I have not called you a single name, i think that if you read the thread you will see that you just started that little game.

Look at the weight of posts not one backing up what you are saying, how many will it take for you to see. ?

@ mousemonkey,

As long as its ok with muckle, there seems to be a decision made so i think it might be a good place to leave this little discussion ? Unless your enjoying it that is ?

Mactronix :) 

Well DXRick appears to have acknowledged that the human eye can differentiate above 30fps and that is all that I had issue with, so I see no reason to end this discussion as yet.
June 29, 2011 10:08:20 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Well DXRick appears to have acknowledged that the human eye can differentiate above 30fps and that is all that I had issue with, so I see no reason to end this discussion as yet.


Love it.

OK how about this - if I were to want to upgrade NOW - would it make more sense to add another rare gigabyte SOC 470 - or get a new card. We have to take into acccount price, performance, and longevity from a usability standpoint. My card cost $350 when I bought it in Oct. 2010.

I just did a search and there is not a single one on eBay, and I found ONE on a google search - on a very questionable looking website called "PC Titan" with the price listed at "$ 216,90".

http://www.pc-titan.com/product_info.php?info=p6896_Gig...

So it seems that my card is about as rare as a unicorn now, which sucks because my idea purchasing it was to get a bad@$$ card that stood out among the rest (not top of the line, gtx 480 or w/e, because I didn't think the incr performance warranted the price premium) and eventually I would add another for SLI to extend it's livlihood and also by then the price would have gone down, and I would still get to keep using the original card of course (extending it's value) b/c it's SLI.

I guess what I'm saying is if I were to find another, what's the most it would be worth to get it vs getting a new card. Maybe someone else might see the situation differently - I certainly welcome another point of view.

Again - I currently have an i5-760 (OC'ed), 1 gtx super overclock 470 - can provide more hardware details if relevant
a c 271 U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 10:44:45 PM

muckle said:
Love it.

OK how about this - if I were to want to upgrade NOW - would it make more sense to add another rare gigabyte SOC 470 - or get a new card. We have to take into acccount price, performance, and longevity from a usability standpoint. My card cost $350 when I bought it in Oct. 2010.

I just did a search and there is not a single one on eBay, and I found ONE on a google search - on a very questionable looking website called "PC Titan" with the price listed at "$ 216,90".

http://www.pc-titan.com/product_info.php?info=p6896_Gig...

So it seems that my card is about as rare as a unicorn now, which sucks because my idea purchasing it was to get a bad@$$ card that stood out among the rest (not top of the line, gtx 480 or w/e, because I didn't think the incr performance warranted the price premium) and eventually I would add another for SLI to extend it's livlihood and also by then the price would have gone down, and I would still get to keep using the original card of course (extending it's value) b/c it's SLI.

I guess what I'm saying is if I were to find another, what's the most it would be worth to get it vs getting a new card. Maybe someone else might see the situation differently - I certainly welcome another point of view.

Again - I currently have an i5-760 (OC'ed), 1 gtx super overclock 470 - can provide more hardware details if relevant

This is why I don't follow the 'buy one now and SLi/Crossfire later' philosophy.
June 29, 2011 11:11:43 PM

if ur really fussed about the clockrates running at a trillion, buy a cooler for the evga.
the idea on the buy one now sli later is that later u can buy a second one for cheaper not more expensive, that defeats the whole point!
June 29, 2011 11:14:55 PM

Mousemonkey said:
This is why I don't follow the 'buy one now and SLi/Crossfire later' philosophy.


So if I were to extrapolate advice for moving forward from this - It seems I should use my current card until it's performance is too outdated then get a new card altogether? What if I were able to find another for SLI? worth it?

I'm sorry but you didn't provide useful feedback here, you just kind of wagged your finger.
June 29, 2011 11:21:28 PM

bigbang said:
buy this
http://cgi.ebay.com/EVGA-NVIDIA-GeForce-GTX-470-012-P3-...
overclock/underclock each card seperately so they run at the same rate same performance, then sli them, dont need to be the same brand


Really? I was under the impression they had to be the same card. I quick visit to the SLI/crossfire FAQ... seems I can just use any gtx 470 - as long as they have the same memory and clocks. This changes up the situation... knowing not that I dont necessary NEED another of my card, just the closest OTHER gtx 470.

thanks for pointing that out!
June 29, 2011 11:22:16 PM

take my word for it.no new single card can give u a performance boost a second gtx470 can give u for the same price, at any given time, under any circumstances. u have my word! though needing a new psu and mb might change that fact
a b U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 11:22:42 PM

No you don't need them to be the same clocks. The drivers will sync them anyways. MSI AB does it too.
June 29, 2011 11:23:49 PM

yes happy hunting ^^, evga's seem to give as good performance as gigabyte. (i have a gigabyte myself so im very pro gigabyte)
but gigabyte closes productions lines quickly so they become reall really rare
June 29, 2011 11:25:28 PM

u dont want them to be at the same clock, most likely case is they perform differently. best way is to run them single each, and to tests, adjust clocks to make sure they PERFORM the same, even though they might have different clocks. i think u need to hack drivers for that but u definately dont want jittered fps in ur screen because ur graphics are out of sink
a c 271 U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 11:27:20 PM

muckle said:
So if I were to extrapolate advice for moving forward from this - It seems I should use my current card until it's performance is too outdated then get a new card altogether? What if I were able to find another for SLI? worth it?

I'm sorry but you didn't provide useful feedback here, you just kind of wagged your finger.

If you can find another one then go for it, just remember that you don't need an exact same card it just has to be another 470. And I wasn't wagging my finger so much as shaking my head in disbelief that you should be thinking this now, rather than having thought about this when you were buying the motherboard back whenever you bought it.
June 29, 2011 11:32:45 PM

what is ur motherboard anyway?
a c 271 U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 11:35:15 PM

muckle said:
Yes, I did not want to hear that my proc will inhibit my video card upgrade.

I need a greater understanding of how far I can push my video card setup and increase gaming performance within the confines of my i5 760/asus p7p55d-e pro proc/mobo combo. The chipset on my mobo is of course already outdated. In what degree do these have to be upgraded in unison???

However I do know that users have been wildly successful in OC'ing the i5 760. I have played around with it a bit and pushed it up from the stock 2.8 up to 3.4 with temps maxing out with 70c at full load with hyper 212+ cooler (side note - is that good?)


bigbang said:
what is ur motherboard anyway?


[:mousemonkey]
June 29, 2011 11:44:18 PM

thats a truely astonishing fact that i didnt read that bit, ouch
June 29, 2011 11:48:07 PM

damn u monkey! on the bright side he can get a nice voodoo 5 and setup a nice sli
June 29, 2011 11:51:29 PM

Mousemonkey said:
If you can find another one then go for it, just remember that you don't need an exact same card it just has to be another 470. And I wasn't wagging my finger so much as shaking my head in disbelief that you should be thinking this now, rather than having thought about this when you were buying the motherboard back whenever you bought it.


Well... I don't see any issue with my motherboard - what am I missing here? I got a great motherboard at the time I built the computer that had gave me the option of SLI should I end up doing it. My mobo came in a great combo with the i5760 so... what gives?
June 29, 2011 11:57:36 PM

your motherboard only has 1 pcie 16x slot, pairing it up would require a hack which is not guaranteed to work and even if it works it will not be a very good scaling. afraid sli would cost u much more than a single card in thsi scenario
a c 271 U Graphics card
June 30, 2011 12:08:32 AM

bigbang said:
your motherboard only has 1 pcie 16x slot, pairing it up would require a hack which is not guaranteed to work and even if it works it will not be a very good scaling. afraid sli would cost u much more than a single card in thsi scenario

The Asus P7P55D-E is supposed to have two PCIe x16 slots that run in x8 with SLi (which is supported without a hack).
!