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Gtx 460 on 400w psu

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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June 26, 2011 2:17:16 AM

Hi,

I'm planning on acquiring a GTX 460 on my system which still using onboard HD 4200. Latest reading on $500 gaming PC (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/diy-gaming-pc,2970....) which couples an Antec Earth 380w with Radeon 6850 makes me wonder if my current PSU is actually capable to drive a 460. Following is my complete spec.:

Athlon II X4 620 (non OC)
Gigabyte 785GT UD3H
4 SATA green drives
2 DVDRW
SAGA II 400W 80%
- 3.3v at 24a
- 5v at 15a
- 12v dual rails at 17a each
- max combined power at 336w
- peak power at 450w
- total power at 400w

Considering HD 6850, GTX 460, and GTS 450 are rated at 25a, 26a, and 24a respectively, and an Antec 380w being able to drive a 6850, I dared to take a wild guess that my 400w will also be sufficient enough for a 460.

Also I have been confirmed by the SAGA people and a couple of forums that the particular PSU is good enough for GTS 450.

Of course, my last concern would be that the PSU is only supplying one 6pin PEG so that second PEG would have to come from a molex converter. Should I be worry about this?

cheers,
andy

More about : gtx 460 400w psu

June 26, 2011 3:37:32 PM

rolli59 said:
It will probably do it since it has combined 28amps on the +12 volts (336watts) http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-psu-80...

I'm also inclined to your opinion; my only concern would be the second PEG as every articles out there suggest they should came directly from the PSU instead of molex converter. Also, do you think the left over 2 amps is enough for the rest of the system considering I also have 4 green sata drives..
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a b U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 3:42:05 PM

hstpctech said:
I'm also inclined to your opinion; my only concern would be the second PEG as every articles out there suggest they should came directly from the PSU instead of molex converter. Also, do you think the left over 2 amps is enough for the rest of the system considering I also have 4 green sata drives..

You're assuming that the card will use 26 amps, it won't, not even close.
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June 26, 2011 3:47:23 PM

delluser1 said:
You're assuming that the card will use 26 amps, it won't, not even close.

Well now this is new I have to admit :p  Would you care to explain a bit more on that, since I have stumbled upon some articles stated a GTX 460 is only using 13 amps, and some said 26 amps (which is exactly twice the amount earlier stated). And it's not only particular to 460, I've seen it described as such for other cards. Exactly twice the amount.
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a c 1362 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 3:51:33 PM

The 26 amp on the +12 volt rail requirement is for total amps available to the whole system!
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June 26, 2011 3:54:45 PM

rolli59 said:
The 26 amp on the +12 volt rail requirement is for total amps available to the whole system!

I think I'm getting it, you meant that the articles that stated a GTX 460 would need 26amps, it's system-wide requirement. So I guess 3 additional green SATA drives wouldn't be much of a burden, would it?
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a c 1362 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 3:57:57 PM

No they would not!
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June 26, 2011 4:03:28 PM

rolli59 said:
No they would not!

Now I'm officially confused :D  sorry but I would very much like you to elaborate a bit here... in some articles I've understand the amps requirement are meant for the whole system including the video card itself. I assume on most systems we only found one or two SATA drives, so how much additional drives would increase the total power requirement? If I recall, a single SATA drive needs 2 amps..
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a b U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 4:09:47 PM

Why don't you just get a HD 6850, less power usage, better performance.
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June 26, 2011 4:14:00 PM

yummerzzz said:
Why don't you just get a HD 6850, less power usage, better performance.

Well 6850 is sold for 33% more than a GTX 460 where I currently live, so there's your reason :)  According to MSI forum, 6850 is only one ampere less than 460.
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a c 1362 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 4:21:20 PM

Here are some numbers for WD green peak loads at 1.75 amps (depending on size). http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1679/re... Your computer use is different if you have all three HDD working at peak loads at the same time. It is more likely to estimate an average load of 6 watts per drive which would be 0.5 amps coming from the + 12 volts.
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June 26, 2011 4:29:20 PM

rolli59 said:
Here are some numbers for WD green peak loads at 1.75 amps (depending on size). http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1679/re... Your computer use is different if you have all three HDD working at peak loads at the same time. It is more likely to estimate an average load of 6 watts per drive which would be 0.5 amps coming from the + 12 volts.

I actually employ 4 green drives, three 640GB and one 2TB. Daily usage pattern would be two drives operational and two at idle or sleep state since they are only for backup purpose.

Combining your suggestion with [delluser1]'s, then it would be safe to assume my current configuration is feasible for a 460 upgrade, yes? Do I need to worry regarding the second 6pin PEG which comes from converted molex?
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a c 1362 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 4:36:19 PM

The molex adapter is a common solution so no worries and I say it should work fine. Here is an overclocked full system load I7 9xx with GTX460 running Furmark (which is a load case not seen in normal use) 331watt http://www.anandtech.com/show/4344/nvidias-geforce-gtx-...
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June 26, 2011 4:45:46 PM

rolli59 said:
The molex adapter is a common solution so no worries and I say it should work fine. Here is an overclocked full system load I7 9xx with GTX460 running Furmark (which is a load case not seen in normal use) 331watt http://www.anandtech.com/show/4344/nvidias-geforce-gtx-...

I must say you guys have been extremely helpful, and such a prompt responses too. Thank you all for the solid explanations.
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June 26, 2011 4:52:57 PM

Best answer selected by hstpctech.
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 5:09:53 PM

hstpctech said:
Of course, my last concern would be that the PSU is only supplying one 6pin PEG so that second PEG would have to come from a molex converter. Should I be worry about this?

Yes you should be worried about this.

Without any details on which connectors are wired to which of the +12 Volt rails you can run into problems if the 4-pin Molex connector cable(s) are wired to the same +12 Volt rail as the PCI-E supplementary power cable. If that were to be the case all of your hard disk drives, CD/DVD drives, chassis cooling fans and graphics card would be drawing their +12 Volt power from the same rail which could cause the over-current protection circuit to be triggered shutting down the power supply.
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June 26, 2011 5:23:32 PM

ko888 said:
Yes you should be worried about this.

Without any details on which connectors are wired to which of the +12 Volt rails you can run into problems if the 4-pin Molex connector cable(s) are wired to the same +12 Volt rail as the PCI-E supplementary power cable. If that were to be the case all of your hard disk drives, CD/DVD drives, chassis cooling fans and graphics card would be drawing their +12 Volt power from the same rail which could cause the over-current protection circuit to be triggered shutting down the power supply.

Thanks. This is actually a very real problem in my case.. unfortunately the PSU is not modular, and there's no additional information on which rail connected to which connector. So if I may, would you know any safe way to test for it, anything better than to risk triggering an overcurrent?
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 5:44:34 PM

hstpctech said:
Thanks. This is actually a very real problem in my case.. unfortunately the PSU is not modular, and there's no additional information on which rail connected to which connector. So if I may, would you know any safe way to test for it, anything better than to risk triggering an overcurrent?

Since I couldn't find any reputable technical reviews on the FSP Saga II 400, where the reviewer actually does a tear-down to determine these things (i.e. load distribution), there really is no easy way of determining this without actually opening up the power supply and looking at where and how the wires are connected.

A single PCI-E connector means that particular connector has a maximum +12 Volt current draw of 6.25 Amps. If the 4-pin Molex cables were wired to the same rail that would leave 10.75 Amps for those devices.
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June 26, 2011 5:53:01 PM

ko888 said:
Since I couldn't find any reputable technical reviews on the FSP Saga II 400, where the reviewer actually does a tear-down to determine these things (i.e. load distribution), there really is no easy way of determining this without actually opening up the power supply and looking at where and how the wires are connected.

A single PCI-E connector means that particular connector has a maximum +12 Volt current draw of 6.25 Amps. If the 4-pin Molex cables were wired to the same rail that would leave 10.75 Amps for those devices.

Will this link http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-psu-80... help? I know the review didn't includes load distribution and rails related issue...so I'm pretty much busted here unless I find a howto manual to track down the rail assignment?
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 6:02:20 PM

hstpctech said:
Will this link http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-psu-80... help? I know the review didn't includes load distribution and rails related issue...so I'm pretty much busted here unless I find a howto manual to track down the rail assignment?

That review is pretty much useless.
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June 26, 2011 6:07:58 PM

ko888 said:
That review is pretty much useless.

:D  okay so I have to head back googling some more then... any progress will be posted here.
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 8:20:58 PM

hstpctech said:
:D  okay so I have to head back googling some more then... any progress will be posted here.

Since the FSP Saga II 400 adheres to the ATX12V V2.3 specification its 28 Amps will be distributed accross the two +12 Volt rails in accordance with that specification as follows :

12V1 - P4/Aux Connector (i.e. CPU Power)

12V2 - ATX 20(4) Pin Connector, Molex, SATA, Floppy and one 6-pin PCI-E connectors

This power supply is not meant for those users running a lot of high draw components. It is only meant for light to medium duty use so as to not run into a current limit issue.

This is the type of scenario where a single rail design has the advantage.
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June 26, 2011 9:31:17 PM

ko888 said:
Since the FSP Saga II 400 adheres to the ATX12V V2.3 specification its 28 Amps will be distributed accross the two +12 Volt rails in accordance with that specification as follows :

12V1 - P4/Aux Connector (i.e. CPU Power)

12V2 - ATX 20(4) Pin Connector, Molex, SATA, Floppy and one 6-pin PCI-E connectors

This power supply is not meant for those users running a lot of high draw components. It is only meant for light to medium duty use so as to not run into a current limit issue.

This is the type of scenario where a single rail design has the advantage.

I see a bleak future here...since every molex is drawing from the 2nd rail, I have no way to access the other then?
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 9:56:31 PM

hstpctech said:
I see a bleak future here...since every molex is drawing from the 2nd rail, I have no way to access the other then?

You're stuck with the power supply design that FSP has limited you to.

If you were willing to invalidate your warranty and you have power supply design knowledge you can open up the power supply and do some rewiring.

Thermaltake has run into this exact issue with one of their power supply models when they placed two PCI-E connectors on the same rail so that the power supply would conform to the ATX12V V2.x specification. Later they made a revision to the design so that it didn't conform to the ATX12V V2.x specification any more by rewiring the PCI-E connectors so that they obtained some of their power from both +12 Volt rails and changed the label on the power supply to show the change in the load distribution. Bad design decisions cause a lot of RMAs forcing a redesign.
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June 26, 2011 10:05:26 PM

ko888 said:
You're stuck with the power supply design that FSP has limited you to.

If you were willing to invalidate your warranty and you have power supply design knowledge you can open up the power supply and do some rewiring.

Thermaltake has run into this exact issue with one of their power supply models when they placed two PCI-E connectors on the same rail so that the power supply would conform to the ATX12V V2.x specification. Later they made a revision to the design so that it didn't conform to the ATX12V V2.x specification any more by rewiring the PCI-E connectors so that they obtained some of their power from both +12 Volt rails and changed the label on the power supply to show the change in the load distribution. Bad design decisions cause a lot of RMAs forcing a redesign.

I can confidently say that my knowledge of PS design is clearly confined to the spec labels..
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a c 171 U Graphics card
June 26, 2011 10:54:07 PM

If you want to learn something about power supplies go to hardwaresecrets and jonnyguru websites. They do comprehensive reviews with load/ripple/noise testing and have detailed articles about PSU's. There are some other good sites out there but these two are the best IMO.
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June 27, 2011 4:13:38 AM

iam2thecrowe said:
If you want to learn something about power supplies go to hardwaresecrets and jonnyguru websites. They do comprehensive reviews with load/ripple/noise testing and have detailed articles about PSU's. There are some other good sites out there but these two are the best IMO.

Thanks for the tips..now the concern is how to power the two PEGs when the dual rails only provide one.
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June 27, 2011 6:41:42 AM

I'm just taking a wild chance here, but if the two PEGs are pulling 150w or 12.5a, then the single rail is still quite capable to cover that kind of load, would it? There's still enough current left for SATA drives etc.
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 27, 2011 4:57:39 PM

hstpctech said:
I'm just taking a wild chance here, but if the two PEGs are pulling 150w or 12.5a, then the single rail is still quite capable to cover that kind of load, would it? There's still enough current left for SATA drives etc.

No.

If we use the WD Caviar Green 2 TB SATA Hard Drive (WD20EADS), as an example, it will draw 1.78 Amps from the +12 Volt rail while performing a read/write operation.

You have four hard disk drives for a potential maximum of 7.12 Amps.

A typical internal DVD-RW drive draws 1.4 Amps from the +12 Volt rail while burning a disc or 1.15 Amps during reads.

You have two DVD-RW drives for a potential maximum of 2.8 Amps.

The motherboard draws power from the 24-pin ATX main power connector to power its chipset and on-board devices like audio and LAN. I would estimate approximately 6 Amps.

This would all be in addition to the graphics card's +12 Volt current draw.

If you were playing a graphics intensive game for instance, you would be using at least the motherboard and one hard disk drive, you will have exceeded the +12 Volt rail's current limit.

When sizing a power supply unit you always take into account the worst case maximum power consumption so you won't run into problems with inadequate power.
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June 28, 2011 1:35:28 AM

ko888 said:
No.

If we use the WD Caviar Green 2 TB SATA Hard Drive (WD20EADS), as an example, it will draw 1.78 Amps from the +12 Volt rail while performing a read/write operation.

You have four hard disk drives for a potential maximum of 7.12 Amps.

A typical internal DVD-RW drive draws 1.4 Amps from the +12 Volt rail while burning a disc or 1.15 Amps during reads.

You have two DVD-RW drives for a potential maximum of 2.8 Amps.

The motherboard draws power from the 24-pin ATX main power connector to power its chipset and on-board devices like audio and LAN. I would estimate approximately 6 Amps.

This would all be in addition to the graphics card's +12 Volt current draw.

If you were playing a graphics intensive game for instance, you would be using at least the motherboard and one hard disk drive, you will have exceeded the +12 Volt rail's current limit.

When sizing a power supply unit you always take into account the worst case maximum power consumption so you won't run into problems with inadequate power.

It seems my problem is the need of 2 PEGs when I only have one...so what would happen if we change the 460 to HD 6850 instead? One PEG required, one amp less too...
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 3:06:52 AM

hstpctech said:
It seems my problem is the need of 2 PEGs when I only have one...so what would happen if we change the 460 to HD 6850 instead? One PEG required, one amp less too...

A Radeon HD 6850 has a maximum board power of 127 Watts which means that it may draw up to 10.6 Amps from the +12 Volt rail.

Up to 6.25 Amps will be supplied via the PCI-E power connector and the rest will be provided through the PCI-E Slot via the ATX 24-pin Main Power connector.

You could still potentially run into problems with the Radeon HD 6850 also.
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June 28, 2011 9:42:27 AM

ko888 said:
A Radeon HD 6850 has a maximum board power of 127 Watts which means that it may draw up to 10.6 Amps from the +12 Volt rail.

Up to 6.25 Amps will be supplied via the PCI-E power connector and the rest will be provided through the PCI-E Slot via the ATX 24-pin Main Power connector.

You could still potentially run into problems with the Radeon HD 6850 also.

Huh, so the way we calculate this PSU can't really drives a decent graphic card after all...low wattage card usually doesn't require PEG and I'm not sure there is one that needs a PEG comes with low wattage requirement. As far as I concern, 550 Ti actually has higher amp requirement. So, that leaves me with GTS 450?
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a c 171 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 10:52:47 AM

just get a new psu already. the antec earthwatts 380 is your cheapest option. I think it would be worth the extra to go for a quality 450-500w unit. Then save some more money and get yourself a 6850/gtx460. IMO you would not be happy with a gts450/550, the 6850/460 is significantly faster than them. If you really want to just get a vid card, the 5770 gives gts 550 performance while using a lot less power and your current psu may be fine with it.
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June 28, 2011 11:44:49 AM

iam2thecrowe said:
just get a new psu already. the antec earthwatts 380 is your cheapest option. I think it would be worth the extra to go for a quality 450-500w unit. Then save some more money and get yourself a 6850/gtx460. IMO you would not be happy with a gts450/550, the 6850/460 is significantly faster than them. If you really want to just get a vid card, the 5770 gives gts 550 performance while using a lot less power and your current psu may be fine with it.

I took this 400w PSU in the first place thinking it would actually be enough for this next upgrade. Would Antec 380 be good enough to drives a GTX 460? It is only equipped with one 6pin...

The reason I chose the nVidia side is mainly the Physx. Last time I consulted the SAGA people, they stated their 400w could power a GTS 450. Do you think we can take their words?

So after quite a bit of reading, I really must say the whole multi rail thing is a bad idea when there's so many chances of 'trapped power'.
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June 28, 2011 3:56:36 PM

Additional question here: would this PSU be enough for a GTX 460? Provided the label is trustworthy of course..

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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 4:21:08 PM

hstpctech said:
Additional question here: would this PSU be enough for a GTX 460? Provided the label is trustworthy of course..

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv294/hstpctech/venom.jpg

Isn't the 500W VENOMRX KINGSNAKE SERIES (VRX-500PFN) dual rail design a discontinued model replaced by the 500W VENOMRX BUSHMASTER EDITION (VRX-500ATM) single rail design?

They probably ran into the same issues that you're encountering with the dual rail model so they replaced it with a single rail design to solve it.
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June 28, 2011 4:26:58 PM

ko888 said:
Isn't the 500W VENOMRX KINGSNAKE SERIES (VRX-500PFN) dual rail design a discontinued model replaced by the 500W VENOMRX BUSHMASTER EDITION (VRX-500ATM) single rail design?

They probably ran into the same issues that you're encountering with the dual rail model so they replaced it with a single rail design to solve it.

I believe so, yes. Although I'm not very clear regarding the rail issue. Some people wrote that they personally drive high-end models (GTX 280, HD 4870 etc) with this exact model, the dual rail. I have my doubt now after having your opinion.

New question: if this Bushmaster is single rail, and the standard limitation of every rail is 20a, then how would one draw the full 40a out of this PSU?
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 28, 2011 4:46:37 PM

hstpctech said:
New question: if this Bushmaster is single rail, and the standard limitation of every rail is 20a, then how would one draw the full 40a out of this PSU?

It would have a single +12 Volt rail with a current rating of 40 Amps. The over current protection circuit on the +12 Volt rail should be set to shut down the power supply if more than 40 Amps (this value may be set slightly higher at the discretion of the manufacturer) is drawn.
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June 29, 2011 1:59:24 AM

ko888 said:
It would have a single +12 Volt rail with a current rating of 40 Amps. The over current protection circuit on the +12 Volt rail should be set to shut down the power supply if more than 40 Amps (this value may be set slightly higher at the discretion of the manufacturer) is drawn.

I thought the ATX standard is 240va hence the multi railing...so this Bushmaster is out of spec then? Also would you say Venom deliver pure powers?
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 2:06:57 AM

hstpctech said:
I thought the ATX standard is 240va hence the multi railing...so this Bushmaster is out of spec then? Also would you say Venom deliver pure powers?

In the ATX12V v2.3 specification the absolute over current limit (240VA per rail) is no longer present, enabling the +12 Volt line to provide more than 20 Amps per rail.
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June 29, 2011 11:06:44 PM

ko888 said:
In the ATX12V v2.3 specification the absolute over current limit (240VA per rail) is no longer present, enabling the +12 Volt line to provide more than 20 Amps per rail.

If only they came up with this sooner.. It seems you know very much about Venom PSU. Is it possible that I use the Venom dual rail with a 460 instead?
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 29, 2011 11:33:03 PM

I only know what VENOMRX has published on their website. They haven't published any technical specifications for the power supply. They don't specify the +12 Volt rail's continuous current rating. All they say is that it has a SINGLE RAIL 12V output.
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June 30, 2011 3:30:39 AM

ko888 said:
I only know what VENOMRX has published on their website. They haven't published any technical specifications for the power supply. They don't specify the +12 Volt rail's continuous current rating. All they say is that it has a SINGLE RAIL 12V output.

That's why it's kinda shady brand :)  Also I only have the dual rail Kingsnake, with two PEG connectors, I was thinking perhaps I could get by with this to power the 460 I wanted. Then again, we don't really know to which rail or rails each PEG connected...

Asking your best advice, what should I get provided that I only have these SAGA 400w and Venom 500w? In the past, I have considered 450, 5770, and 550 Ti.
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a c 540 U Graphics card
June 30, 2011 8:37:42 PM

hstpctech said:
That's why it's kinda shady brand :)  Also I only have the dual rail Kingsnake, with two PEG connectors, I was thinking perhaps I could get by with this to power the 460 I wanted. Then again, we don't really know to which rail or rails each PEG connected...

Asking your best advice, what should I get provided that I only have these SAGA 400w and Venom 500w? In the past, I have considered 450, 5770, and 550 Ti.

The 500W VENOMRX KINGSNAKE SERIES (VRX-500PFN) claims to be ATX12V Ver 2.2 Compliant [SSI-EPS12V Compatible].

ATX12V Ver 2.2 Compliance means that the +12 Volt rail distribution is as follows :

+12V1 Rail - Identified by Solid Yellow Wire
24 Pin ATX Main Power Connector
Peripheral Connector(s)
Serial ATA Power Connector
Floppy Drive Connector

+12V2 Rail - Identified by Yellow Wire with Black Stripe
ATX 12V CPU Power Connector

Take a look at the yellow wires on the two PCI-E connectors. If they both have the same yellow color then they are both on the same rail. If one of the PCI-E connectors's yellow wires has a black stripe on it then that one is on a different rail and the power supply wouldn't conform to the ATX12V Ver 2.2 specification.

If they're on different rails you're in luck and should be able to run a GeForce GTX 460.

If they're on the same rail you're really only safe running with the GeForce GTX 550 Ti or Radeon HD 5770 or GeForce GTS 450. The GeForce GTX 550 Ti is the one with the best performance of these three.
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July 1, 2011 2:25:12 AM

ko888 said:
The 500W VENOMRX KINGSNAKE SERIES (VRX-500PFN) claims to be ATX12V Ver 2.2 Compliant [SSI-EPS12V Compatible].

... If they're on different rails you're in luck and should be able to run a GeForce GTX 460.

If they're on the same rail you're really only safe running with the GeForce GTX 550 Ti or Radeon HD 5770 or GeForce GTS 450. The GeForce GTX 550 Ti is the one with the best performance of these three.

Had I able to reassign, this is the best answer yet.

One of the PEG has three black and yellow wires, the other has solid yellows. 8pin CPU connector has a pair of yellows and a pair of striped yellows. So am I the clear then?

Some people who are trying to sell their 2nd Venom (exact model) were claiming to have ran GTX 280 worth of 40a...
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a c 540 U Graphics card
July 1, 2011 2:43:06 AM

hstpctech said:
Had I able to reassign, this is the best answer yet.

One of the PEG has three black and yellow wires, the other has solid yellows. 8pin CPU connector has a pair of yellows and a pair of striped yellows. So am I the clear then?

Some people who are trying to sell their 2nd Venom (exact model) were claiming to have ran GTX 280 worth of 40a...

I would say you're clear to go with a GeForce GTX 460, preferably the 1GB version.
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July 1, 2011 7:01:54 AM

ko888 said:
I would say you're clear to go with a GeForce GTX 460, preferably the 1GB version.

Great! Thanks for the tremendous help, and all who had chip in their suggestions. I couldn't agree more to get the 1GB variant alas the budget won't allow for that..
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