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Nvidia busted again for cheating.

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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August 17, 2011 12:31:28 AM

eyefinity said:
http://techreport.com/articles.x/21404/1

I wonder if Toms will redo their Crysis 2 dx11 review with this new information? Once again Nvidia proves they can't be trusted by deliberately slowing down games just because it slows down the radeons more. Pathetic.


So...Nvidia gets crytek to create objects with huge teselation that slows their own cards by 17% just so they can make radeon cards slow down by 30%? This sounds like inefficiencies made by crytek who wanted to get something out fast so it would cost them less and keep the sales of the PC version up while it was still in momentum. And if your damning nvidia for this, your also damning crytek for it as well.

Disclaimer: i am by no means a graphics card expert, either way, I think this theory is far fetched. Not only would nvidia need to be mean enough to do this (Which I don't doubt entirely) but so would crytek.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 12:40:46 AM

What about the millions Nvidia spent on bribing Crytek? God you are green if you actually think this isn't totally deliberate. Nvidia has a history of it. And yes Crytek is just as much to blame.
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a c 196 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 1:13:52 AM

I think you are drawing a much bigger conclusion out of that article than you should be. Yes, AMD cards take about twice as large of a performance hit to run tessellation as an nVidia card does, this is well know and true across the board. Any amount of tessellation would result in a decent slowdown on both sides, with the AMD cards showing a much bigger hit, this isnt news and im not sure why you think there is bribery going on but i highly doubt it. It doesnt even appear that nVidia got optimized drivers for it or they should have a slightly lower hit than they do.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 1:29:21 AM

Yeah right I mean fully tesselated water features that you can't see and those barriers - the most tesselated features in any game so far. For what is basically a straight line - just so happens they are all over the game lol.

No wonder Nvidia tries this crap when savants are queuing up to defend them. Pathetic!
a c 173 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 1:31:01 AM

While not surprised, I'm not convinced either. Considering the time issues they had getting it out, that might be the reason why "water" is still in the scene. Unless a smoking gun email is found I don't see how you can claim this is Nvidia's fault. Yes it's possible, but they might have been lazy or ???

Arktik, Nvidia is mean enough to do this. Of this I have no doubt. None at all.
a c 216 U Graphics card
a c 80 Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 1:32:08 AM

Well, here is some good news, if you look in the CCC with some of the more recent drivers, there is now a slider to control how much tessellation that can be used.

AMD cards aren't necessarily slower at tessellation, but they have limited tessellation units, where at Nvidia can convert more of their Cuda cores to tessellation units, allowing them to handle more and more if needed.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 10:01:12 AM

4745454b said:
While not surprised, I'm not convinced either. Considering the time issues they had getting it out, that might be the reason why "water" is still in the scene. Unless a smoking gun email is found I don't see how you can claim this is Nvidia's fault. Yes it's possible, but they might have been lazy or ???

Arktik, Nvidia is mean enough to do this. Of this I have no doubt. None at all.


No. You don't go adding massive levels of tesselation to flat objects for no reason except you deliberately want to slow down the game. Adding tesselation to flat objects is even more deceitful than usual as it is almost impossible to notice without the special program which shows the level of tesselation.

This is pure cheating and dishonesty by Crytek and Nvidia. If it was just the water then I'd have said it is possibly just bad coding or an oversight, but huge levels of tesselation on flat objects cannot possibly be either.
a c 173 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 10:09:41 AM

The water under the pavement is what I don't understand. I'm assuming that anytime they have water, they simply code water then put stuff on top of it. Is this lazy or is it Nvidia paying them off to do something that hurts the competition? The barriers is just odd. No reason to tess those.
August 17, 2011 2:38:32 PM

I have a 570 and feel good that if any game comes out that does implement a true tesselated game, then I am decent shape choosing Nvidia since the GPUs dedicate more resources for it. Unfortunately, PC gamers as a whole will likely get stiffed until new generation consoles come out supporting those features.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 3:01:38 PM

I like the tesselated barriers, they look so real in 3D, a screen shot doesn't tell you what it actually looks like in the game when you are moving around an object and seeing it from all angles.

"In fact, we doubt the DX11 patch for this game would even exist without Nvidia's urging."

If that's cheating than please keep cheating Nvidia.



a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 3:09:15 PM

If that GPU PerfStudio is to be believed (it is ATi software after all) then all it seems to show is that ATi cards are useless when it comes to tessellation and Crytek are useless when it comes to coding, so what's new?
a c 173 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 3:49:52 PM

Both sides cheat all the time and isn't new since the stone age. It is when they try to fix prices together to screw the consumer that pisses me off like they had done from 2004 through 2006 just to make an extra buck but for a badly coded game who gives a rat's ass.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 4:10:28 PM

Mousemonkey said:
If that GPU PerfStudio is to be believed (it is ATi software after all) then all it seems to show is that ATi cards are useless when it comes to tessellation and Crytek are useless when it comes to coding, so what's new?


AMD cards are absolutely fine when it comes to tesselation. You are confusing Fermi's overdone tesselation as being "better" when in fact it's worse. The only thing "better" about it is it slows down Nvidia's own card less, there is zero IQ gain in either case.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 4:11:45 PM

benski said:
"In fact, we doubt the DX11 patch for this game would even exist without Nvidia's urging."

If that's cheating than please keep cheating Nvidia.


Of course they were urging it, how else were they going to be able to cheat with tesselation? You do know tesselation is only available with dx11 right? :whistle: 
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 4:27:30 PM

eyefinity said:
AMD cards are absolutely fine when it comes to tesselation. You are confusing Fermi's overdone tesselation as being "better" when in fact it's worse. The only thing "better" about it is it slows down Nvidia's own card less, there is zero IQ gain in either case.


Your first posting for a little while and your agenda is quite clear IMO. :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 4:41:45 PM

eyefinity said:
Of course they were urging it, how else were they going to be able to cheat with tesselation? You do know tesselation is only available with dx11 right? :whistle: 


Actually, Cuda Cores are much better at 3D rendering.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 5:19:11 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Your first posting for a little while and your agenda is quite clear IMO. :lol: 


Yes it's clear, is it again the TOS to link to other articles on the web?
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 5:19:30 PM

yummerzzz said:
Actually, Cuda Cores are much better at 3D rendering.



Yeah.....what?
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 5:28:06 PM

eyefinity said:
Of course they were urging it, how else were they going to be able to cheat with tesselation? You do know tesselation is only available with dx11 right? :whistle: 

Yes, it works quite nicely on my GTX 465s, I'm glad I didn't purchase an inferior brand that is unable to deliver on what in my opinion is DX11s best feature. It's not cheating just because your card sucks at it. Troll.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 5:31:27 PM

well regardless if they are cheating this still proves that nvidia 5 series gpu can handle tess much better than there radeon counterparts, period. Crysis 2 is a good example of what games may demand in the future.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 5:32:43 PM

you can say amd cheats by allowing tessellation to be scaled down within their drivers that is even more pathetic to me then nvidia working closely with crytek
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 5:37:20 PM

eyefinity said:
Yes it's clear, is it again the TOS to link to other articles on the web?

Do you mean against? If so then that would depend on the site as much as the reason for posting it I suppose, does it present another angle? Or is it just more flame-bait/conspiracy fuel?
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 5:44:15 PM

Why not read the article, they seem to make it quite clear what they believe is going on? Or does it hurt too much to once again see your precious Nvidia cheating and lying their way to benchmark wins?

For the rest of you, you didn't buy a faster card, Nvidia is slower and they have to resort to this cheating so they can con you into spending more cash on slower cards. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Maybe you'll learn for next time.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 5:45:20 PM

jjb8675309 said:
well regardless if they are cheating this still proves that nvidia 5 series gpu can handle tess much better than there radeon counterparts, period. Crysis 2 is a good example of what games may demand in the future.


Rubbish, go read up on tesselation before spouting more nonsense please.
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 5:49:43 PM

eyefinity said:
Why not read the article, they seem to make it quite clear what they believe is going on? Or does it hurt too much to once again see your precious Nvidia cheating and lying their way to benchmark wins?

For the rest of you, you didn't buy a faster card, Nvidia is slower and they have to resort to this cheating so they can con you into spending more cash on slower cards. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Maybe you'll learn for next time.

Actually I did read the article and if you are wondering what I thought of it then re read my first post in this thread.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 5:53:58 PM

eyefinity said:
AMD cards are absolutely fine when it comes to tesselation. You are confusing Fermi's overdone tesselation as being "better" when in fact it's worse. The only thing "better" about it is it slows down Nvidia's own card less, there iszero IQ gain in either case.


Re-read my post.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 6:03:37 PM

Mousemonkey said:
Actually I did read the article and if you are wondering what I thought of it then re read my first post in this thread.


Yeah obviously ATI have found a way to magically put tesselation into Crysis 2? I mean come on who are you trying to kid with that nonsense?

As for Crytek being bad at coding yeah I can believe that for the water, but there is no way at all they would put such massive tesselation on a flat object unless they were trying to slow the game down deliberately.

Put that together with Nvidia's bribe cash and it's pretty clear to most people what is going on here. It's pathetic, and defending it is pathetic as well. Nvidia or AMD fanboy there is simply NO NEED to defend this blatent cheating and lying.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 6:04:42 PM

yummerzzz said:
Re-read my post.


Yeah it still makes no sense.
a c 271 U Graphics card
a c 171 Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 6:12:27 PM

eyefinity said:
Yeah obviously ATI have found a way to magically put tesselation into Crysis 2? I mean come on who are you trying to kid with that nonsense?

As for Crytek being bad at coding yeah I can believe that for the water, but there is no way at all they would put such massive tesselation on a flat object unless they were trying to slow the game down deliberately.

Put that together with Nvidia's bribe cash and it's pretty clear to most people what is going on here. It's pathetic, and defending it is pathetic as well. Nvidia or AMD fanboy there is simply NO NEED to defend this blatent cheating and lying.

ATi have had a dedicated tess chip on their cards since the 2xxx series and yet as soon as it needs to be used and can't cope people like you start whining and as they were the first out of the door with DX11 GPU's shouldn't they know what to expect when lots of tess is used in multiple objects? :heink: 
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 6:40:20 PM

I'll take the flame bait but in a constructive way::

@AMD Fanboy

Im not spewing garbage All AMD cards are practically crippled under heavy tessellation. The 6 series was a slight improvement but not much, saying "Crippled" might be exaggerated but like I said it is sad that AMD has to scale down the tessellation in their drivers for their cards to pull acceptable frames in some cases. If nvidia is cheating by being involved with a developer, than amd is cheating by using scaled down "AMD optimized" tessellation. That is crap and this is a nonsensical argument.

@ AMD Fanboy

Btw what amd and nvidia rigs have you owned as actual experience for you to judge?

Personally Ive owned several AMD/ATI 2, 3,4,5 and 6 series gpus and Ive owned nvidia 6,8,9,2,4 and 5- series gpus, so I am not talking out of my butt.
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 6:59:24 PM

jjb8675309 said:
I'll take the flame bait but in a constructive way::

@AMD Fanboy

Im not spewing garbage All AMD cards are practically crippled under heavy tessellation. The 6 series was a slight improvement but not much, saying "Crippled" might be exaggerated but like I said it is sad that AMD has to scale down the tessellation in their drivers for their cards to pull acceptable frames in some cases. If nvidia is cheating by being involved with a developer, than amd is cheating by using scaled down "AMD optimized" tessellation. That is crap and this is a nonsensical argument.

@ AMD Fanboy

Btw what amd and nvidia rigs have you owned as actual experience for you to judge?

Personally Ive owned several AMD/ATI 2, 3,4,5 and 6 series gpus and Ive owned nvidia 6,8,9,2,4 and 5- series gpus, so I am not talking out of my butt.


@ Nvidia Fanboy

Did you even read the article? Let me quote from it, so you understand just how little you...understand.


Quote:
The question is: Why?

Why did Crytek decide to tessellate the heck out of this object that has no apparent need for it?


Quote:
Crytek's decision to deploy gratuitous amounts of tessellation in places where it doesn't make sense is frustrating, because they're essentially wasting GPU power


Quote:
Why are largely flat surfaces, such as that Jersey barrier, subdivided into so many thousands of polygons, with no apparent visual benefit? Why does tessellated water roil constantly beneath the dry streets of the city, invisible to all?


Quote:
The trouble comes when, as sometimes happens, the game developer and GPU maker conspire to add a little special sauce to a game in a way that doesn't benefit the larger PC gaming community. There is precedent for this sort of thing in the DX11 era. Both the Unigine Heaven demo and Tom Clancy's HAWX 2 cranked up the polygon counts in questionable ways that seemed to inflate the geometry processing load without providing a proportionate increase in visual quality.


Quote:
Unnecessary geometric detail slows down all GPUs, of course, but it just so happens to have a much larger effect on DX11-capable AMD Radeons than it does on DX11-capable Nvidia GeForces.


Are you understanding this yet or is it still too hard?
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 7:01:31 PM

jjb8675309 said:
I'll take the flame bait but in a constructive way::

@AMD Fanboy

Im not spewing garbage All AMD cards are practically crippled under heavy tessellation. The 6 series was a slight improvement but not much, saying "Crippled" might be exaggerated but like I said it is sad that AMD has to scale down the tessellation in their drivers for their cards to pull acceptable frames in some cases. If nvidia is cheating by being involved with a developer, than amd is cheating by using scaled down "AMD optimized" tessellation. That is crap and this is a nonsensical argument.

@ AMD Fanboy

Btw what amd and nvidia rigs have you owned as actual experience for you to judge?

Personally Ive owned several AMD/ATI 2, 3,4,5 and 6 series gpus and Ive owned nvidia 6,8,9,2,4 and 5- series gpus, so I am not talking out of my butt.


I've owned an MX 440, 5200, 6600 GT, 7600 GT, 8800 GT

and

x1950, 4870, 5770 and currently a 6850.

Your point was?
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 7:43:01 PM

^good just that we get a lot of people talking out of their ass that have never actually owned a rig, sorry for mistaking you for one of those people I could really care less about this thread in general, what are you arguing?
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 7:55:17 PM

I'm arguing -

Nvidia and Crytek have conspired to cheat in the Crysis 2 benchmarks, making Nvidia cards look way better than what they are.

They did this by adding far too much tessellation to the game, on objects that wouldn't normally have that kind of tessellation.

This slows down Nvidia and AMD graphics cards, but it slows down AMD cards more. That would be "ok" if it wasn't for the fact that there is practically ZERO benefit to the player. You can't tell the difference visually at such extreme levels of tessellation, all it does is slow down the cards.

This only happens in Unigine, Stone Giant, HAWX 2 and Crysis 2 - there are no other games that slow down systems deliberately by overdoing the tessellation for no visual benefit. All of these have had massive Nvidia "sponsorship".

It's not hard to figure out what is going on. Nvidia is clearly bribing games devs to slow down games, knowing that even though their own cards will be affected, AMD cards will be affected more.

Do you think that's acceptable? I don't. Look at the toms Crysis 2 article - how many people do you think went and bought Nvidia cards because of that? And it's a total lie. Nvidia is buying games devs and the tech press with YOUR money because you are spending more on Nvidia cards that are actually SLOWER but perform better in these 3-4 bentmarks which you see in most reviews.
a c 173 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2011 8:02:47 PM

a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 8:37:41 PM

lolamdfanboyismadcausenvidiaperformsbetterinacertaingamelol
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 9:09:26 PM

LOL I don't buy that they are conspiring... maybe someone is mad they have a radeon, who gives a damn, buy what you like end of story
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 9:34:57 PM

Random fanboy doesn't "buy that they are conspiring", some of the most respected tech journalists on the web do. I think I know who I'm more likely to believe. :) 
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 10:27:55 PM

have fun with your anger
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 10:43:06 PM

lolamddoesntgetthebestfpsinonegameimgonnaneerrdddrageomgconspiracyarea51lol
a b U Graphics card
August 17, 2011 11:22:44 PM

jjb8675309 said:
have fun with your anger


Lol me? I'm not the one who started throwing out "troll" and "fanboy" around :D 

Nah kids, I know who is angry. :)  But you know, you are only angry at yourselves for falling for Nvidia's crap. I'm just the messenger.

And believe me I am quite happy to spread the word about Nvidia's cheating and lying on this forum, not angry. ;) 
a c 145 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 18, 2011 9:12:42 AM

jjb8675309 said:
have fun with your anger


lol. i believe he purposely create this thread to generate flame war and pissing off some people. that's all. maybe i should get my pop corn. it has been a while since i saw this kind of thread here at toms :D 
a c 173 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 18, 2011 9:24:28 AM

I hope that's not the reason for this thread. I for one would like to know if Nvidia is back to their old ways.

For those of you new to this, just like AMD is "famous" for their bad drivers, Nvidia was famous for their driver cheats. From FM banning certain drivers from 3DMark, to games running faster then they should unless you renamed them to game.exe, it seems that Nvidia has done all kinds of "odd" things. I myself don't see what Eyefinity sees, but its certainly possible Nvidia has gone back to their old ways. And I see nothing wrong with making a thread to warn/tell others.
August 18, 2011 3:37:54 PM

I think Occam's razor applies here. It is much easier to explain the over tessellation of the barrier, and the existence or the water mesh as just poor coding techniques. Especially in the case of the barrier. There are thousands of object defined in these games, and as the article explains, tessellation is scalable. It is very possible that the designers simply forgot to turn down the tessellation for that one object.

The only thing that is absolutely obvious in this thread is that eyefinity is a troll who likes to indulge in conspiracy theory, and instigate unnecessarily heated debates.
a b U Graphics card
August 18, 2011 5:49:53 PM

4745454b said:
I hope that's not the reason for this thread. I for one would like to know if Nvidia is back to their old ways.

For those of you new to this, just like AMD is "famous" for their bad drivers, Nvidia was famous for their driver cheats. From FM banning certain drivers from 3DMark, to games running faster then they should unless you renamed them to game.exe, it seems that Nvidia has done all kinds of "odd" things. I myself don't see what Eyefinity sees, but its certainly possible Nvidia has gone back to their old ways. And I see nothing wrong with making a thread to warn/tell others.


Old ways? TWIMTBP is still around in games... That's and "all time" behavior :p 

JasonAkkerman said:
I think Occam's razor applies here. It is much easier to explain the over tessellation of the barrier, and the existence or the water mesh as just poor coding techniques. Especially in the case of the barrier. There are thousands of object defined in these games, and as the article explains, tessellation is scalable. It is very possible that the designers simply forgot to turn down the tessellation for that one object.

The only thing that is absolutely obvious in this thread is that eyefinity is a troll who likes to indulge in conspiracy theory, and instigate unnecessarily heated debates.


As a fellow programmer, all I can say is that I really don't doubt in Crytek engineers/programmers/architects at all, but lousy management that pushed deadlines and made a rush patch because of prior bad calls.

Even if nVidia had their claws in all that mess described in the article, I'm sure there is more blame to pass into the management chain and a rushed product (the patch).

Cheers!
a c 173 U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 19, 2011 1:02:35 AM

TWYMTBP doesn't bother me that much. If someone wants to provide help to programmers so that they can make their games run better/smoother then I don't have a problem with it. There is that whole "AA will only work on our cards" thing that is shady. But I'm not bothered by it to much.
a b U Graphics card
August 19, 2011 4:57:46 AM

4745454b said:
TWYMTBP doesn't bother me that much. If someone wants to provide help to programmers so that they can make their games run better/smoother then I don't have a problem with it. There is that whole "AA will only work on our cards" thing that is shady. But I'm not bothered by it to much.


It does bothers me, because although they do get improvements, they polarize optimization. In a development cycle, if you have (even get) a chance to improve/optimize your code, it's not because you love your work or because the company feels it's their duty to do so. It's because they are paid more money to invest the time and labor it involves/requires. So, that "TWIMTBP" means nVidia buying out "programmers time" to shift balance towards their line of cards or technology; in other words "wetting" companies to shift balance. I'd say it's a borderline case for a mistrust lawsuit. And, we all now a programmers time ain't cheap. And sending a lot of people to teach others how to do specific coding isn't cheap. AMD also does this though, but I've never seen or read about how much "trainning" they give out to programmers (game devs if you like to call them).

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Cheers!
a b U Graphics card
August 20, 2011 5:57:24 PM

JasonAkkerman said:
I think Occam's razor applies here. It is much easier to explain the over tessellation of the barrier, and the existence or the water mesh as just poor coding techniques. Especially in the case of the barrier. There are thousands of object defined in these games, and as the article explains, tessellation is scalable. It is very possible that the designers simply forgot to turn down the tessellation for that one object.

The only thing that is absolutely obvious in this thread is that eyefinity is a troll who likes to indulge in conspiracy theory, and instigate unnecessarily heated debates.


Yeah Occam's razor let's see.

Nvidia has a history of bribing games devs to hobble AMD cards.
Nvidia bribed Crytek $2 million (that we know of, god knows how much they ACTUALLY paid in the end).
Crysis 2 has very "strange" graphics quirks which just so happen to slow down AMD cards more than Nvidia cards.

Yes I think Occam's razor applies here and it's pretty clear what the most obvious explanation was. It's the same conclusion that the industry-respected author of the article came to, that is Nvidia and Crytek are up to no good.

Oh and don't call me a troll, sheep.
!