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Eureka on Color Management

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Anonymous
April 17, 2005 6:09:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I think I'm "getting it" on color management.

I mean, there is no question about using some device to calibrate the
monitor for color and contrast/brightness. That isn't where all my
questions came up.

The main questions involved what settings you use in the various screens
that you have to make a choice in, in order to use color management in
editing pictures and printing them. Some of the articles hinted around
the subject, but none nailed it.

The first choice (in Elements, for example) is do you want to use full
color management or not. Put yes, full management. Then, you are asked
to choose a working color space. Choose Adobe RGB 1998. Next, you are
asked when you open an image if you want to use the existing embedded
color tag on the image (probably sRGB) or convert to your working space.
This choice doesn't really matter as much, because Photoshop will use
either one just as successfully. But choose convert to Adobe RGB. Next,
when you choose print, or print with preview, you are asked what color
space to print with. There is a bewildering variety of choices here, but
the main idea is to not do color management twice; once in the Photoshop
and once in the printer driver. I use the Canon i950 printer, which has
just one box, under Manual in the color settings, that says "Use ICM"
that affects which way this goes in the printer. So here is what I
learned: You can tell the Photoshop program to make the color "same as
source" or "Adobe RGB" and then DO CHECK "Use ICM" in the printer
settings; or you can tell Photoshop to "use printer color management"
and then DO NOT CHECK "Use ICM" and you will get the same correct
result, good color and contrast. In all cases you are still, of course,
setting the type of paper in your printer.

To summarize:

Use full color management

Adobe RGB 1998

Use embedded or convert to Adobe RGB (not much difference)

*****************

Same as Source or Adobe RGB

Use ICM

***************** OR

Use printer color management

DO NOT use ICM


Others, please tell us what the settings should be for Epson or HP printers.

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 6:09:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In Elements:
Full Color Management = aRGB [Use this IF your camera tags the images
as aRGB]
Limited Color Management = sRGB [Use this IF your camera tags images
as sRGB or does not tag them at all]

In Elements Print Preview > Print Space, if you specify Use Printer
Management, then you DO need to use ICM in the printer driver. [This
disables color managment in Elements, and enables CM in the printer
driver]

or

If you disable ICM in the printer driver, then you should set a proper
paper profile in Print Preview > Print Space (and many have found
Perceptual intent to work best in most cases). Then in the printer
driver, ICM and ALL other options should be deselected, but the paper
settings should match the paper profile that was selected in Elements.
[This enables CM in Elements and disables CM in the printer driver]

For example, for some Canon's the profiles are:

SP1 - Photo Paper Plus Glossy at Quality 1 CNB5CEA0.ICM
PR1 - Photo Paper Pro Glossy at Quality 1 CNB5CCA0.ICM
PR2 - Photo Paper Pro Glossy at Quality 2 CNB5CCB0.ICM
MP1 - Matte Photo Paper at Quality 1 CNB5CDA0.ICM
Generic BJ Color Printer Profile CNBJPRN2.ICM

I found the following doc to be helpful. Even though it was written
primarily for
the full Photoshop, most of the same settings can be used in Elements.
Basically, in the first part they select Printer Color Mgmt in
Photoshop and then ICM On in printer driver, and in second part they
specify a paper profile in Photoshop then set ICM Off in the driver:
http://www.qualiteitems.com/canon.pdf


Be very careful about using Convert (which changes the pixel values)
and Assign Profile if you don't know what they really do.
April 17, 2005 7:03:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

> I think I'm "getting it" on color management.
>


Get the book "color confidence" by Tim Grey. They sell at amazon used for $5
or so. That's what 3 prints worth and it explains everything you need to
know. Sometimes being so cheap that you won't buy a book (looking for free
info) is a waste of time and money.

--

Stacey
Related resources
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 8:08:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> To summarize:

> Use full color management

> Adobe RGB 1998

> Use embedded or convert to Adobe RGB (not much difference)

> *****************

> Same as Source or Adobe RGB

> Use ICM

> ***************** OR

> Use printer color management

> DO NOT use ICM


> Others, please tell us what the settings should be for Epson or HP printers.

The ONLY rule here is that you must use the same printer settings /
inks / paper that were used at the time your printer profile was
generated. As long as you do that, youll be fine. In the case of
Epsons, profiles can be generated either with "No Colour Adjustment"
or with one of the "photo realistic" modes.

Andrew.
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 8:40:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>Olin writes ...
>
> I found it made prints with VERY UNDESIRABLE reddish hues.

> Gary writes ...
>
>Yes, my bad prints were too red also. But I
>can't duplicate the conditions under which I did that.

The RGB values in the file get translated either by the printer driver
or by color management into different RGB values when sent to the
printer. The red or magenta cast means you translated them twice
instead of once. If you have Photoshop do the following to see what's
going on ...

1) Make a new RGB file and fill in a small block with 50% gray or RGB
128/128/128 (draw a box with the rect marquee tool and do Edit > Fill
with 50% gray). Open the Info palette ... on the top row click on the
rightmost eyedropper and change it to 'proof color' ... this will tell
you what the color gets changed to for printing.

2) Do View > Proof Setup and pick one of your printer profiles and move
the cursor over the gray patch to see what new values you get in the
Proof color box ... for example, when I do this with Enhanced Matte for
the Epson 4000 the proof colors are 178/150/172 meaning 128/128/128 in
the image (ie, gray) has to translate to 178/150/172 for the printer to
print this correctly as gray.

3) Open up the Foreground color box by clicking on it and enter this
proof color as your foreground color, draw a new box and fill it with
the foreground color. Hold the cursor over this new box and see what
the new proof color is ... for me it's 226/157/216 (yours will be
different with a different printer profile).

What you WANTED to do was translate from 128/128/128 to 178/150/172 and
you could either let the printer driver do this or you could do it in
Photoshop by soft proofing or when you print with preview or a couple
of other ways. If you do the translation twice (ie, in Photoshop and
also with the printer driver) then instead of sending 178/150/172 it
got translated a second time into 226/157/216 and your colors are hosed
up.

Hope this helps you understand what's going on under the hood ...

Bill
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 9:56:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Markeau wrote:
> In Elements:
> Full Color Management = aRGB [Use this IF your camera tags the images
> as aRGB]
> Limited Color Management = sRGB [Use this IF your camera tags images as
> sRGB or does not tag them at all]
>
> In Elements Print Preview > Print Space, if you specify Use Printer
> Management, then you DO need to use ICM in the printer driver. [This
> disables color managment in Elements, and enables CM in the printer driver]
>
> or
>
> If you disable ICM in the printer driver, then you should set a proper
> paper profile in Print Preview > Print Space (and many have found
> Perceptual intent to work best in most cases). Then in the printer
> driver, ICM and ALL other options should be deselected, but the paper
> settings should match the paper profile that was selected in Elements.
> [This enables CM in Elements and disables CM in the printer driver]
>
> For example, for some Canon's the profiles are:
>
> SP1 - Photo Paper Plus Glossy at Quality 1 CNB5CEA0.ICM
> PR1 - Photo Paper Pro Glossy at Quality 1 CNB5CCA0.ICM
> PR2 - Photo Paper Pro Glossy at Quality 2 CNB5CCB0.ICM
> MP1 - Matte Photo Paper at Quality 1 CNB5CDA0.ICM
> Generic BJ Color Printer Profile CNBJPRN2.ICM
>
> I found the following doc to be helpful. Even though it was written
> primarily for
> the full Photoshop, most of the same settings can be used in Elements.
> Basically, in the first part they select Printer Color Mgmt in Photoshop
> and then ICM On in printer driver, and in second part they specify a
> paper profile in Photoshop then set ICM Off in the driver:
> http://www.qualiteitems.com/canon.pdf
>
>
> Be very careful about using Convert (which changes the pixel values) and
> Assign Profile if you don't know what they really do.

Well, I'm thoroughly stumped now. Your advice is just the opposite of
what I had proposed, so I went back into both Elements and Photoshop CS
to prove it one way or the other. I tried it with printer color
management or "same as source" and set the printer to use ICM or not use
ICM. In every combination I tried, in either program, I got good prints.

I had done one or two where the color was way off, but I didn't write
down the settings on the back of those because I thought I knew what
they were. Now I can't get a bad print to beat my ass.

So under what conditions will the color be way off, so I can prove it to
myself? I thought this stuff was more critical than it apparently is.

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 9:56:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:xrx8e.4765$_t3.1542@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> So under what conditions will the color be way off, so I can prove
> it to myself? I thought this stuff was more critical than it
> apparently is.

Most of the reported complaints seem to be when Color Management is
enabled in both the imaging program *and* the printer driver. So, for
example it would be bad to both specify a paper profile in Elements
(which would make Elements change the color values for the selected
paper type before sending the image to the printer driver) and enable
ICM in the printer driver (which would make the driver change color
values for the paper type that is selected in the driver).

Basically that results in "double color management" - Elements changes
the image to correctly print on the target paper, the image is then
sent to the printer driver, and then the printer driver again changes
the color values for the paper type selected in the driver.
April 17, 2005 9:56:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier wrote:


>
> So under what conditions will the color be way off, so I can prove it to
> myself? I thought this stuff was more critical than it apparently is.
>

This stuff -IS- more critical than you obviously are... :-) If you're happy
with prints using the default no color managed work flow, don't sweat it.
be glad you can't see the difference!


--

Stacey
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 12:13:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Markeau wrote:
>
> "Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:xrx8e.4765$_t3.1542@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
>> So under what conditions will the color be way off, so I can prove it
>> to myself? I thought this stuff was more critical than it apparently is.
>
>
> Most of the reported complaints seem to be when Color Management is
> enabled in both the imaging program *and* the printer driver. So, for
> example it would be bad to both specify a paper profile in Elements
> (which would make Elements change the color values for the selected
> paper type before sending the image to the printer driver) and enable
> ICM in the printer driver (which would make the driver change color
> values for the paper type that is selected in the driver).
>
> Basically that results in "double color management" - Elements changes
> the image to correctly print on the target paper, the image is then sent
> to the printer driver, and then the printer driver again changes the
> color values for the paper type selected in the driver.

Markeau, please re-read my posts. I said that I have tried every
combination of Photoshop settings and printer settings, but the results
were always the same - a good print. The question is, which settings are
supposed to result in a bad print? If I could see that, then I could
avoid that and do it right.

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 12:13:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:o rz8e.5626$5f.3395@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Markeau, please re-read my posts. I said that I have tried every
> combination of Photoshop settings and printer settings, but the
> results were always the same - a good print. The question is, which
> settings are supposed to result in a bad print? If I could see that,
> then I could avoid that and do it right.

It might be that you have inadvertently created a workflow that
"works" in a specific instance. Many of us have had big problems
trying to get CM working right. At least one poster never could get
it right and ultimately found their printer was to blame. Overall,
the basic advice when using a color managed workflow is to never color
manage twice.
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 12:14:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Stacey wrote:

> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
>
>
>>So under what conditions will the color be way off, so I can prove it to
>>myself? I thought this stuff was more critical than it apparently is.
>>
>
>
> This stuff -IS- more critical than you obviously are... :-) If you're happy
> with prints using the default no color managed work flow, don't sweat it.
> be glad you can't see the difference!

Jesus, I didn't say I was using a no color managed workflow. Please
re-read my post.

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 12:16:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Stacey wrote:

> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
>
>>I think I'm "getting it" on color management.
>>
>
>
>
> Get the book "color confidence" by Tim Grey. They sell at amazon used for $5
> or so. That's what 3 prints worth and it explains everything you need to
> know. Sometimes being so cheap that you won't buy a book (looking for free
> info) is a waste of time and money.

I have several books on the subject, but, as I said, most of them talk
around the subject and never get down to telling me what blasted
settings to put in the windows. I thought I had it figured out, but
apparently not.

I keep trying.

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 2:28:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:13:34 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
<geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>
>
>Markeau wrote:
>>
>> "Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:xrx8e.4765$_t3.1542@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>>
>>> So under what conditions will the color be way off, so I can prove it
>>> to myself? I thought this stuff was more critical than it apparently is.
>>
>>
>> Most of the reported complaints seem to be when Color Management is
>> enabled in both the imaging program *and* the printer driver. So, for
>> example it would be bad to both specify a paper profile in Elements
>> (which would make Elements change the color values for the selected
>> paper type before sending the image to the printer driver) and enable
>> ICM in the printer driver (which would make the driver change color
>> values for the paper type that is selected in the driver).
>>
>> Basically that results in "double color management" - Elements changes
>> the image to correctly print on the target paper, the image is then sent
>> to the printer driver, and then the printer driver again changes the
>> color values for the paper type selected in the driver.
>
>Markeau, please re-read my posts. I said that I have tried every
>combination of Photoshop settings and printer settings, but the results
>were always the same - a good print. The question is, which settings are
>supposed to result in a bad print? If I could see that, then I could
>avoid that and do it right.
>
>Gary Eickmeier



Gary, I wish I could help here, but I'm just as confused as you are.
I have a friend here who is "into" this subject of color management,
and he tried to walk me through the steps in PhotoShop 7, to allow me
to use a downloaded printer profile for my Canon i950 and Ilford
paper. Without really understanding all the changes he walked me
through, I found it made prints with VERY UNDESIRABLE reddish hues. I
quickly got him to walk me through how to UNDO all the changes he had
helped me set up. Now my prints were back where they were before I
started - very satisfying to me, at least. And to summarize, I don't
have any idea of what we did - either in the setup, nor in the
elimination of it. So - to further summarize, I guess ignorance is
bliss!!!!

Olin McDaniel
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:19:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Olin K. McDaniel wrote:

> Gary, I wish I could help here, but I'm just as confused as you are.
> I have a friend here who is "into" this subject of color management,
> and he tried to walk me through the steps in PhotoShop 7, to allow me
> to use a downloaded printer profile for my Canon i950 and Ilford
> paper. Without really understanding all the changes he walked me
> through, I found it made prints with VERY UNDESIRABLE reddish hues. I
> quickly got him to walk me through how to UNDO all the changes he had
> helped me set up. Now my prints were back where they were before I
> started - very satisfying to me, at least. And to summarize, I don't
> have any idea of what we did - either in the setup, nor in the
> elimination of it. So - to further summarize, I guess ignorance is
> bliss!!!!

You may be right, Olin! Yes, my bad prints were too red also. But I
can't duplicate the conditions under which I did that. So I still don't
know what I'm doing (right or wrong) in color management.

Gary Eickmeier
April 18, 2005 4:17:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Markeau

where do you obtain the profiles you have listed in your email. I have an
i950 and only have the generic CNBJPRN2.ICM profile. Lots of good
information in this and the preceding posts. Thanks very much

regards

Don from Down Under

"Markeau" <please_reply@news.group> wrote in message
news:x8adnW5UnfOrEv_fRVn-3g@giganews.com...
> In Elements:
> Full Color Management = aRGB [Use this IF your camera tags the images as
> aRGB]
> Limited Color Management = sRGB [Use this IF your camera tags images as
> sRGB or does not tag them at all]
>
> In Elements Print Preview > Print Space, if you specify Use Printer
> Management, then you DO need to use ICM in the printer driver. [This
> disables color managment in Elements, and enables CM in the printer
> driver]
>
> or
>
> If you disable ICM in the printer driver, then you should set a proper
> paper profile in Print Preview > Print Space (and many have found
> Perceptual intent to work best in most cases). Then in the printer
> driver, ICM and ALL other options should be deselected, but the paper
> settings should match the paper profile that was selected in Elements.
> [This enables CM in Elements and disables CM in the printer driver]
>
> For example, for some Canon's the profiles are:
>
> SP1 - Photo Paper Plus Glossy at Quality 1 CNB5CEA0.ICM
> PR1 - Photo Paper Pro Glossy at Quality 1 CNB5CCA0.ICM
> PR2 - Photo Paper Pro Glossy at Quality 2 CNB5CCB0.ICM
> MP1 - Matte Photo Paper at Quality 1 CNB5CDA0.ICM
> Generic BJ Color Printer Profile CNBJPRN2.ICM
>
> I found the following doc to be helpful. Even though it was written
> primarily for
> the full Photoshop, most of the same settings can be used in Elements.
> Basically, in the first part they select Printer Color Mgmt in Photoshop
> and then ICM On in printer driver, and in second part they specify a paper
> profile in Photoshop then set ICM Off in the driver:
> http://www.qualiteitems.com/canon.pdf
>
>
> Be very careful about using Convert (which changes the pixel values) and
> Assign Profile if you don't know what they really do.
>
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 4:17:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Don" <mackie.don@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:b0D8e.14833$5F3.9287@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Markeau
>
> where do you obtain the profiles you have listed in your email. I
> have an i950 and only have the generic CNBJPRN2.ICM profile. Lots
> of good information in this and the preceding posts. Thanks very
> much

All the paper profiles I listed earlier came with my Canon i9900
drivers. Canon has all the software, drivers, etc on their website -
have you checked there for updates for your printer?
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=Support...
April 18, 2005 5:03:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Cuz8e.5629$5f.4101@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> Stacey wrote:
>
>> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>>
>>>I think I'm "getting it" on color management.
>>>
>> Get the book "color confidence" by Tim Grey. They sell at amazon used for
>> $5
>> or so. That's what 3 prints worth and it explains everything you need to
>> know. Sometimes being so cheap that you won't buy a book (looking for
>> free
>> info) is a waste of time and money.
>
> I have several books on the subject, but, as I said, most of them talk
> around the subject and never get down to telling me what blasted settings
> to put in the windows. I thought I had it figured out, but apparently not.
>
> I keep trying.
>
> Gary Eickmeier

Gary. don't knock it.

The first of your postings listed your workflow. .

In Photoshop Print Dialogue "Print Space". The Settings "Same as
Source" - "Adobe RGB" , do the same thing. They effectively tell
Photoshop, just to pass on the Adobe RGB Data to the Printer without making
any changes.

In order to Colour Manage, with either of these set, you should then need to
tell the Printer to use ICM. And you said this had worked.

In the Photoshop Print Dialogue "Print Space", setting "Use Printer Mngm"
also tells Photoshop to just pass on the Adobe RGB data without making any
changes.
In order to Colour Manage you should still need to tell the Printer to use
ICM.

You said that you de-selected "ICM" so effectively neither Photoshop or the
Printer were doing colour Management. (Unless of course, there is some other
Colour Management system at work within the Printer, that I don't know
about, because I don't use Canon Printers.)

So you seem to be lucky, in that your system just manages to give you good
colour without using Colour Management, or you might not be applying
sufficiently critical judgement to your results. Or your Monitor is out of
Calibration, and that error is cancelling out the errors in your Printer,
seems unlikely.

The normal rule is that if you set up Photoshop to do No colour Mngmt, then
you should set up your Printer to do it, by choosing ICM or "Auto" or
similar.

If you set up Photoshop to do the Colour Management by choosing your Printer
/ Paper Profile in Print Space, then you should set up your Printer so that
it does NOT Colour Manage. On an Epson Printer the Custom - Advanced Box
has a choice "No Colour Adjustment/Management", but I am not aware how to do
that on a Canon.

If it is all working, just carry on. You can start to worry when it starts
to go wrong.

Roy G
April 18, 2005 5:21:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier wrote:


>
> Jesus, I didn't say I was using a no color managed workflow. Please
> re-read my post.
>


If you're sending files to let the printer driver deal with it you are..

--

Stacey
April 18, 2005 5:26:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

>
>
> Stacey wrote:
>
>> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think I'm "getting it" on color management.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Get the book "color confidence" by Tim Grey. They sell at amazon used for
>> $5 or so. That's what 3 prints worth and it explains everything you need
>> to know. Sometimes being so cheap that you won't buy a book (looking for
>> free info) is a waste of time and money.
>
> I have several books on the subject, but, as I said, most of them talk
> around the subject and never get down to telling me what blasted
> settings to put in the windows.

That's why I sugested that book. It doesn't beat around the bush.

> I thought I had it figured out, but
> apparently not.

http://homepage.mac.com/renard/ls/Canon_ICC_Profile_Gui...


Don't bother with the ICM checkbox as explained in this PDF. WHy canon
deosn't send this doc with their printers is beyond me. If you don't have a
printer profile chosen in PS and have "none" selected in the driver
section, you aren't doing what I call "color managed" workflow and are just
letting the printer driver deal with it for you. If it looks OK to you, go
with it.

--

Stacey
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 7:41:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Stacey wrote:
> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
>
>
>>Jesus, I didn't say I was using a no color managed workflow. Please
>>re-read my post.
>>
>
>
>
> If you're sending files to let the printer driver deal with it you are..
>
That depends on the printer driver. Mine can do color management.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:14:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Here, for my Epson, it's simple:
Photoshop - sRGB everything (since my camera outputs in sRGB, no point
in converting to anything else). Print space = same as source (ie. srgb)
Printing, it's either sRGB or ICM in the Epson driver - here, it's the
same thing since sRGB is being used throughout the pipeline, and all ICM
is going to do is match the sRGB pipeline.

(Advantage of having everything in sRGB - no conversions required)

---

But, to make an awesome print, that's something totally different since
most digicams don't output an awesome image file.

Here, what I usually have to do is to tweak the curves, levels,
saturation, contrast, etc. until the image totally POPS out at out on
the print. I usually have to make a few rounds of test prints at a
reduced size to guage the effects of ink coverage & drying to see what's
the best adjustments to make (keep in mind that although the print looks
really good when it comes out, you'll need to tweak for even more POP
because the inks will dry out over the week and the print will then look
duller than it originally did coming out).

This is probably the single most noticable drawback of any ink-based
printing system -- the inks dry over a week, and the print appearance
shifts the entire time. Not at all like a dye-sub or Pictrography print
where what you get is it, forever. As a result, even with a fully
calibratated pipeline, you still don't see immediately what you get is
what you'll eventually wind up with when the print has dried. here,
you'll need your experience to tweak the print to look a bit
over-the-top just when it comes out of the printer so that it looks
perfect after the inks have dried.
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 11:40:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Markeau wrote:
>
> "Don" <mackie.don@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:b0D8e.14833$5F3.9287@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>> Markeau
>>
>> where do you obtain the profiles you have listed in your email. I
>> have an i950 and only have the generic CNBJPRN2.ICM profile. Lots of
>> good information in this and the preceding posts. Thanks very much
>
>
> All the paper profiles I listed earlier came with my Canon i9900
> drivers. Canon has all the software, drivers, etc on their website -
> have you checked there for updates for your printer?
> http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=Support...

Yes, just looked at your link - didn't find any printer profiles for
color management. I have no such profile. What I am doing is telling
Photoshop to use a source space of Adobe RGB, and setting the print
space to the same, Adobe RGB (or same as source). Then comes the printer
settings. Doesn't seem to matter if I use ICM or not. Same print quality.

Where I got confused is with a glitch with my i950. Every time I sit
down to print for the first time, I get a first print that is too red,
usually at the front end of the print and improving as it goes. Each
subsequent print is OK. THis seems to indicate a nozzle problem. Getting
a little banding as well, even after head alignment. Will try deep
cleaning, but I think I might take advantage of my warranty at CompUSA.

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 11:40:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:e3U8e.8157$5f.7360@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Yes, just looked at your link - didn't find any printer profiles for
> color management. I have no such profile.

Indeed, I downloaded the i950 driver to a temp dir and looked - I
don't see any paper profiles. Then I downloaded the i9900 driver, and
yes the paper profiles were there (but compressed). Seems like the
paper profiles would be the same for both Canon printers, don't know.

Why don't you email Canon support about that and whatever else
questions you have? Other posters seem to have gotten good responses
from Canon support.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 2:11:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill Hilton wrote:
>>Olin writes ...
>>
>> I found it made prints with VERY UNDESIRABLE reddish hues.
>
>
>>Gary writes ...
>>
>>Yes, my bad prints were too red also. But I
>>can't duplicate the conditions under which I did that.
>
>
> The RGB values in the file get translated either by the printer driver
> or by color management into different RGB values when sent to the
> printer. The red or magenta cast means you translated them twice
> instead of once. If you have Photoshop do the following to see what's
> going on ...
>
> 1) Make a new RGB file and fill in a small block with 50% gray or RGB
> 128/128/128 (draw a box with the rect marquee tool and do Edit > Fill
> with 50% gray). Open the Info palette ... on the top row click on the
> rightmost eyedropper and change it to 'proof color' ... this will tell
> you what the color gets changed to for printing.
>
> 2) Do View > Proof Setup and pick one of your printer profiles and move
> the cursor over the gray patch to see what new values you get in the
> Proof color box ... for example, when I do this with Enhanced Matte for
> the Epson 4000 the proof colors are 178/150/172 meaning 128/128/128 in
> the image (ie, gray) has to translate to 178/150/172 for the printer to
> print this correctly as gray.
>
> 3) Open up the Foreground color box by clicking on it and enter this
> proof color as your foreground color, draw a new box and fill it with
> the foreground color. Hold the cursor over this new box and see what
> the new proof color is ... for me it's 226/157/216 (yours will be
> different with a different printer profile).
>
> What you WANTED to do was translate from 128/128/128 to 178/150/172 and
> you could either let the printer driver do this or you could do it in
> Photoshop by soft proofing or when you print with preview or a couple
> of other ways. If you do the translation twice (ie, in Photoshop and
> also with the printer driver) then instead of sending 178/150/172 it
> got translated a second time into 226/157/216 and your colors are hosed
> up.
>
> Hope this helps you understand what's going on under the hood ...

Bill -

Thanks for the considerable report on this. I will study it and try some
things after I figure out my printer problems. Might hav eto trade this
thing in for a newer model before I can tell anything about color
management.

Gary Eickmeier
April 19, 2005 5:01:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:e3U8e.8157$5f.7360@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
>
> Markeau wrote:
>>
>> "Don" <mackie.don@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>> news:b0D8e.14833$5F3.9287@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>>> Markeau
>>>
>>> where do you obtain the profiles you have listed in your email. I have
>>> an i950 and only have the generic CNBJPRN2.ICM profile. Lots of good
>>> information in this and the preceding posts. Thanks very much
>>
>>
>> All the paper profiles I listed earlier came with my Canon i9900 drivers.
>> Canon has all the software, drivers, etc on their website - have you
>> checked there for updates for your printer?
>> http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=Support...
>
> Yes, just looked at your link - didn't find any printer profiles for color
> management. I have no such profile. What I am doing is telling Photoshop
> to use a source space of Adobe RGB, and setting the print space to the
> same, Adobe RGB (or same as source). Then comes the printer settings.
> Doesn't seem to matter if I use ICM or not. Same print quality.

If you do not have any Printer / Paper Profiles on you machine, then it is
impossible to Colour Manage.
It does not matter what you select anywhere, Colour Management can not work
without Profiles.

Roy G




>
> Where I got confused is with a glitch with my i950. Every time I sit down
> to print for the first time, I get a first print that is too red, usually
> at the front end of the print and improving as it goes. Each subsequent
> print is OK. THis seems to indicate a nozzle problem. Getting a little
> banding as well, even after head alignment. Will try deep cleaning, but I
> think I might take advantage of my warranty at CompUSA.
>
> Gary Eickmeier
April 19, 2005 5:01:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Ron Hunter wrote:

> Stacey wrote:
>> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Jesus, I didn't say I was using a no color managed workflow. Please
>>>re-read my post.

>>
>> If you're sending files to let the printer driver deal with it you are..
>>
> That depends on the printer driver. Mine can do color management.
>
>
Sure but if they don't have separate profiles avalible in PS and they
aren't softproofing with them or even understand what softproofing is, it's
still just a guessing game as to what's going to exit the printer.
--

Stacey
April 19, 2005 5:23:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David Chien" <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message
news:D 40te2$ntt$1@news.service.uci.edu...
> Here, for my Epson, it's simple:
> Photoshop - sRGB everything (since my camera outputs in sRGB, no point in
> converting to anything else). Print space = same as source (ie. srgb)
> Printing, it's either sRGB or ICM in the Epson driver - here, it's the
> same thing since sRGB is being used throughout the pipeline, and all ICM
> is going to do is match the sRGB pipeline.
>
> (Advantage of having everything in sRGB - no conversions required)
>
> ---
>
> But, to make an awesome print, that's something totally different since
> most digicams don't output an awesome image file.
>
> Here, what I usually have to do is to tweak the curves, levels,
> saturation, contrast, etc. until the image totally POPS out at out on the
> print. I usually have to make a few rounds of test prints at a reduced
> size to guage the effects of ink coverage & drying to see what's the best
> adjustments to make (keep in mind that although the print looks really
> good when it comes out, you'll need to tweak for even more POP because the
> inks will dry out over the week and the print will then look duller than
> it originally did coming out).
>
> This is probably the single most noticable drawback of any ink-based
> printing system -- the inks dry over a week, and the print appearance
> shifts the entire time. Not at all like a dye-sub or Pictrography print
> where what you get is it, forever. As a result, even with a fully
> calibratated pipeline, you still don't see immediately what you get is
> what you'll eventually wind up with when the print has dried. here,
> you'll need your experience to tweak the print to look a bit over-the-top
> just when it comes out of the printer so that it looks perfect after the
> inks have dried.


EXACTLY. All you have to do is make a few rounds of TEST PRINTS.

The whole point of using Colour Management is to predict what the Print is
going to look like, FIRST TIME round.

Once the system is set up, you would KNOW exactly how the Print will look
when it has dried.

Have you ever read anything on the subject of colour management?
Like Adobe Help Files, or the Epson Expert Site? I don't think you will
find them recommending sRGB as a Work Space for eventual Printing.
April 19, 2005 5:23:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Roy wrote:


>
> Have you ever read anything on the subject of colour management?
>

Most people seem to be totally clueless and refuse to spend the time to
learn how it works. It's not rocketscience, but is more involved than
buying a monitor spyder and clicking a couple of buttons.
--

Stacey
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:53:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Roy wrote:

> If you do not have any Printer / Paper Profiles on you machine, then it is
> impossible to Colour Manage.
> It does not matter what you select anywhere, Colour Management can not work
> without Profiles.
>
> Roy G

WELL! That would be a key piece of information, wouldn't it! Now maybe
we can see what I mean by all of these books, articles, and help files
talking around the subject. I didn't read that one anywhere that I can
remember. They just tell you to set your print space to Adobe RGB and
Use ICM.

I will certainly look into what you are saying. Then, as Markeau says, I
will need a printer profile! From somewhere!

Gary Eickmeier
April 19, 2005 5:53:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

>
>
> Roy wrote:
>
>> If you do not have any Printer / Paper Profiles on you machine, then
>> it is impossible to Colour Manage.
>> It does not matter what you select anywhere, Colour Management can not
>> work without Profiles.
>>
>> Roy G
>
>
> WELL! That would be a key piece of information, wouldn't it! Now maybe
> we can see what I mean by all of these books, articles, and help files
> talking around the subject. I didn't read that one anywhere that I can
> remember. They just tell you to set your print space to Adobe RGB and
> Use ICM.
>
> I will certainly look into what you are saying. Then, as Markeau says, I
> will need a printer profile! From somewhere!


Ya, I went through all this only to discover I wasn't using a standard
paper for which profiles were available for my printer. Bah! I'll try
again next time I get paper (or another printer). I did figure out which
settings look better but nothing was quite right.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 9:55:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>Gary writes ...
>
>They just tell you to set your print space to Adobe RGB
>and Use ICM. ... I will need a printer profile! From somewhere!

The cheaper Epsons and most of the Canon and HP printers bundle ALL the
separate ICC profiles for each paper into one file, usually with a
cryptic name. Then when you choose the ICM option in the printer
driver the software looks at what paper type you selected and
automagically picks the right profile for that paper.

In other words, you already have the ICM file even if you can't see it.
It was installed most likely when you installed the printer driver.

You can also get separate ICC files for each paper type. The advantage
of this is that you can now 'soft proof' using Photoshop (ie, apply the
profile and see what the final print will look like, more or less).
You can also screw yourself royally if you apply the soft proof and
also let the printer driver apply the profile a second time, which is
why companies don't usually provide them separately, except for the
higher end photo printer models.

As one example, the Epson 1280 comes with a generic ICM file, something
like ecc1p_1.icc or similar that you only access via the printer driver
and cannot soft proof with, but if you load the PIM module you'll get
access to all the separate profiles for each paper, which allows you to
soft proof and print directly from the profile in Photoshop (or screw
it up yourself, as the case may be).

Bill
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 11:59:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:GwZ8e.8965$5f.4124@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> I will certainly look into what you are saying. Then, as Markeau
> says, I will need a printer profile! From somewhere!

The Canon i950 at least comes with the following printer profile (I
know it does because I downloaded the i950 driver from Canon and
looked):

Generic BJ Color Printer Profile (CNBJPRN2.ICM)

.... so there are two ways to use color management with what you have:

1) In Elements Print Preview > Print Space > Profile select "BJ Color
Printer Profile", then in the i950 driver make sure ICM is not enabled

2) In Elements Print Preview > Print Space > Profile select "Printer
Color Management", then enable ICM in the i950 printer driver
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:34:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:03:35 -0400, Stacey <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Roy wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Have you ever read anything on the subject of colour management?
>>
>
>Most people seem to be totally clueless and refuse to spend the time to
>learn how it works. It's not rocketscience, but is more involved than
>buying a monitor spyder and clicking a couple of buttons.


Studying and reading help, but the problem with ICC
based color management is that there's not much
consistency in the way it's handled within applications
and drivers -- and no book can possibly cover all cases.

So studying and reading are useful but unfortunately
no guarantee of success, particularly when you try to
make and apply your own profiles.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:36:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:53:42 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
<geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:


>WELL! That would be a key piece of information, wouldn't it! Now maybe
>we can see what I mean by all of these books, articles, and help files
>talking around the subject. I didn't read that one anywhere that I can
>remember. They just tell you to set your print space to Adobe RGB and
>Use ICM.


Set print space to Adobe RGB? Show me one book or website
that says to do that.

Adobe RGB is a perfectly fine working space, not a print space.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 3:46:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> EXACTLY. All you have to do is make a few rounds of TEST PRINTS.
>
> The whole point of using Colour Management is to predict what the Print is
> going to look like, FIRST TIME round.
>
> Once the system is set up, you would KNOW exactly how the Print will look
> when it has dried.

That's the ideal - in reality, even the presses make proof prints and
test prints and double-check on the go as they print books, magazines,
etc. off their calibrated workflows. The thing is that even with a
calibrated and managed workflow, the human element still comes into play
in the end. Although you may know a print will look similar to the
screen, it still doesn't give you a perfect idea as to how it will
'feel' when someone looks at it. Here is where the person comes into
play and tweaks the print -- very similar to cooking or painting --
something may match colors 'perfectly', but it has no feel until you've
made a few adjustments. Here's where one tweaks contrast, saturation,
color tint, etc. to really make in image pop! It's this aspect which you
don't really know can be reproduced with a straight print because most
of us aren't 100% familiar with how colors sent to the printer will
appear, and even then, how differing ink coverage will affect density,
etc.

You'd have to make dozens, if not hundreds, of test color chart prints
alone just to see what the entire inkjet print gamut of your printer
will appear like after it has dried. And sadly, most calibration
programs don't use hundreds of test charts to accurately map the entire
color gamut of the print at different ink densities and coverage (which
can be significant - laying down 50% more ink doesn't necessarily mean
the color is 50% darker/etc - ie. you have a non-linear color response
of ink drying on paper depending on coverage that isn't being mapped by
the software).

Here, if you simply look at the gamut of a CRT/LCD monitor overlayed
on a inkjet gamut, you will see the difference between the two - they
simply don't cover the same area!

http://wwwde.kodak.com/US/en/corp/researchDevelopment/t...
http://cs.haifa.ac.il/hagit/courses/ist/Lectures/IST12_...'cielab%20srgb%20lcd'

In the 2nd link, notice the various charts on the color space of the
monitor vs. what you can see in real life vs. what can be printed.
Notice that there is no exact 100% overlap between the printer and
monitor gamut!

This begs the question - if you see a certain, let's say, bright
green on the monitor that simply looks unbelievably juicy green, how do
you print this when the printer doesn't have a juicy green color?

If you simply color manage and calibrate, all the pipeline will do
is simply map that juicy green to the closest green the system picks
(not necessarily the best green for the job). What you end up with is a
nice picture, but not necessarily the 'best' print you can make -- here
is where you, the human, comes into play to tweak the colors so that the
final print (using the limited greens it does have) looks as juicy as
possible (not necessarily looking 'identical' or as close as possible to
the original).

I have read up on all of the color mgmt articles, publications,
etc. of note out there, and the fundamental conclusion is that color
management and calibration will get you closer to ideal and allow you to
make a sound judgement based on what the screen image looks, but it
still won't allow you to make a 'perfect' print all the time w/o round
of test prints and tweaks - simply because the color gamuts don't match
perfectly.

( In fact, here is another point - a poorer man's color management
system - although a pain, IMO vs. a sRGB setup. Even w/o a calibrated
setup, you can still make judgements about how to tweak an image to make
it print looking great - simply open up a color test target on your
screen, such as the Photodisc free test target, alongside your image.
You'll have printed the Photodisc test target already, and played around
to understand how tweaks in the software adjust the printed image. With
that know how in mind, you can then make the same 'adjustments' to your
new images to make awesome prints -- you know exactly what needs to be
done to make a great print the first time around. )
April 19, 2005 4:02:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"paul" <paul@not.net> wrote in message
news:s7udnSy8N72W7vnfRVn-tw@speakeasy.net...
> Gary Eickmeier wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Roy wrote:
>>
>>> If you do not have any Printer / Paper Profiles on you machine, then it
>>> is impossible to Colour Manage.
>>> It does not matter what you select anywhere, Colour Management can not
>>> work without Profiles.
>>>
>>> Roy G
>>
>>
>> WELL! That would be a key piece of information, wouldn't it! Now maybe we
>> can see what I mean by all of these books, articles, and help files
>> talking around the subject. I didn't read that one anywhere that I can
>> remember. They just tell you to set your print space to Adobe RGB and Use
>> ICM.
>>
>> I will certainly look into what you are saying. Then, as Markeau says, I
>> will need a printer profile! From somewhere!
>
>
> Ya, I went through all this only to discover I wasn't using a standard
> paper for which profiles were available for my printer. Bah! I'll try
> again next time I get paper (or another printer). I did figure out which
> settings look better but nothing was quite right.

Sorry about that Gary, and Paul.

I should have worked that one out when you were saying that no matter how
you set PS or the Printer, nothing changed.

You should be able to download these profiles from Canon, You need the ones
which are Specific to your Printer, and for the Canon Papers you are going
to use. (I noticed in a posting by Don on 18.4.05 that there was a list of
Profiles given, but I am not sure for which Printer). All of these Profiles
assume that you will be using Canon Inks. Changing to alternative Inks will
render these Profiles useless.

You should also be able to download Profiles from some of the Paper
manufacturers. These will enable you to use their Paper in your Printer.
They do not provide them for every Printer, and of course other Printer
Companies will NEVER provide Profiles for their Papers in anything but their
own Printers.

If you are using XP, the Profiles should be copied into the Folder at Widows
> System 32 > Spool > Drivers > Color.
If Windows 98 the Folder is Windows > System > Color

If you R Click on a profile Icon, go to Properties then Profile Information
you should see which Paper it is intended to be used with.
Photoshop should automatically display this "Internal Name" in the Print
Space Drop Down List, if you are eventually going to use Ps to CM.

From what has been said in this thread, there does not seem to be any way in
Canon of selecting "No Colour Management" like there is in Epson. So it
will be best to use your Printer to do the CM. So In PS set "Source" to
Adobe RGB and "Print Space" to Use Printer Mngmt, then in Your Canon Driver
select ICM or if there is one "Auto".

Hope this helps. It was worth persevering - maybe?

Roy G
April 19, 2005 4:02:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Roy wrote:

> "paul" <paul@not.net> wrote in message
> news:s7udnSy8N72W7vnfRVn-tw@speakeasy.net...
>>
>>Ya, I went through all this only to discover I wasn't using a standard
>>paper for which profiles were available for my printer. Bah! I'll try
>>again next time I get paper (or another printer). I did figure out which
>>settings look better but nothing was quite right.
>
>
> Sorry about that Gary, and Paul.
>
> I should have worked that one out when you were saying that no matter how
> you set PS or the Printer, nothing changed.
>
> You should be able to download these profiles


I'm just using some generic Office Depot 'premium high gloss'. It's been
suggested that might be Ilford, I haven't tried their profiles but the
100-pack is running down now.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:55:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 4/19/05 7:02 AM, in article Lr69e.15696$It4.1775@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net,
"Roy" <royphoty@iona-guesthouse.co.uk> wrote:


>
> I should have worked that one out when you were saying that no matter how
> you set PS or the Printer, nothing changed.
>
> You should be able to download these profiles from Canon, You need the ones
> which are Specific to your Printer, and for the Canon Papers you are going
> to use. (I noticed in a posting by Don on 18.4.05 that there was a list of
> Profiles given, but I am not sure for which Printer). All of these Profiles
> assume that you will be using Canon Inks. Changing to alternative Inks will
> render these Profiles useless.
>
> You should also be able to download Profiles from some of the Paper
> manufacturers. These will enable you to use their Paper in your Printer.
> They do not provide them for every Printer, and of course other Printer
> Companies will NEVER provide Profiles for their Papers in anything but their
> own Printers.
>
> If you are using XP, the Profiles should be copied into the Folder at Widows
>> System 32 > Spool > Drivers > Color.
> If Windows 98 the Folder is Windows > System > Color
>
> If you R Click on a profile Icon, go to Properties then Profile Information
> you should see which Paper it is intended to be used with.
> Photoshop should automatically display this "Internal Name" in the Print
> Space Drop Down List, if you are eventually going to use Ps to CM.
>
> From what has been said in this thread, there does not seem to be any way in
> Canon of selecting "No Colour Management" like there is in Epson. So it
> will be best to use your Printer to do the CM. So In PS set "Source" to
> Adobe RGB and "Print Space" to Use Printer Mngmt, then in Your Canon Driver
> select ICM or if there is one "Auto".
>
> Hope this helps. It was worth persevering - maybe?
>
> Roy G
>
>
The above is all good advice, but a few corrections. Canon *does* provide
paper profiles with with their printers. They are installed along with the
printer driver. The names are a bit cryptic so they might not be immediately
recognizable. For example, the profile with the designation MP1 in the name
stands for matte paper; the profile with the designation PR2 in the name
stands for photo paper pro. Also, the canon printer drivers do indeed allow
'no color management' to be selected. (As others have said, this does not
literally mean no color management; it means that *you* are doing the color
management and you are setting the printer driver to not again try to manage
what you have already done.)
Chuck
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 10:24:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

C Wright wrote:
> On 4/19/05 7:02 AM, in article Lr69e.15696$It4.1775@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net,
> "Roy" <royphoty@iona-guesthouse.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I should have worked that one out when you were saying that no matter how
>>you set PS or the Printer, nothing changed.
>>
>>You should be able to download these profiles from Canon, You need the ones
>>which are Specific to your Printer, and for the Canon Papers you are going
>>to use. (I noticed in a posting by Don on 18.4.05 that there was a list of
>>Profiles given, but I am not sure for which Printer). All of these Profiles
>>assume that you will be using Canon Inks. Changing to alternative Inks will
>>render these Profiles useless.
>>
>>You should also be able to download Profiles from some of the Paper
>>manufacturers. These will enable you to use their Paper in your Printer.
>>They do not provide them for every Printer, and of course other Printer
>>Companies will NEVER provide Profiles for their Papers in anything but their
>>own Printers.
>>
>>If you are using XP, the Profiles should be copied into the Folder at Widows
>>
>>>System 32 > Spool > Drivers > Color.
>>
>>If Windows 98 the Folder is Windows > System > Color
>>
>>If you R Click on a profile Icon, go to Properties then Profile Information
>>you should see which Paper it is intended to be used with.
>>Photoshop should automatically display this "Internal Name" in the Print
>>Space Drop Down List, if you are eventually going to use Ps to CM.
>>
>>From what has been said in this thread, there does not seem to be any way in
>>Canon of selecting "No Colour Management" like there is in Epson. So it
>>will be best to use your Printer to do the CM. So In PS set "Source" to
>>Adobe RGB and "Print Space" to Use Printer Mngmt, then in Your Canon Driver
>>select ICM or if there is one "Auto".

So then there is no point in trying to download their profiles, is
there? Anyway, I haven't found the profiles on their site.
>>
>>Hope this helps. It was worth persevering - maybe?

YES! Keep it up.
>>
>>Roy G
>>
>>
>
> The above is all good advice, but a few corrections. Canon *does* provide
> paper profiles with with their printers. They are installed along with the
> printer driver.

So where are they?

> The names are a bit cryptic so they might not be immediately
> recognizable. For example, the profile with the designation MP1 in the name
> stands for matte paper; the profile with the designation PR2 in the name
> stands for photo paper pro. Also, the canon printer drivers do indeed allow
> 'no color management' to be selected.

How? Where? Is this the "Enable ICM" checkbox?

> As others have said, this does not
> literally mean no color management; it means that *you* are doing the color
> management and you are setting the printer driver to not again try to manage
> what you have already done.)
> Chuck
>
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 10:28:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Markeau wrote:

>
> "Gary Eickmeier" <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:GwZ8e.8965$5f.4124@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
>> I will certainly look into what you are saying. Then, as Markeau says,
>> I will need a printer profile! From somewhere!
>
>
> The Canon i950 at least comes with the following printer profile (I know
> it does because I downloaded the i950 driver from Canon and looked):
>
> Generic BJ Color Printer Profile (CNBJPRN2.ICM)
>
> ... so there are two ways to use color management with what you have:
>
> 1) In Elements Print Preview > Print Space > Profile select "BJ Color
> Printer Profile", then in the i950 driver make sure ICM is not enabled
>
> 2) In Elements Print Preview > Print Space > Profile select "Printer
> Color Management", then enable ICM in the i950 printer driver

Yes, Markeau, I see the "BJ Color Printer 2000" in the list of printer
spaces. But which paper would that be set for????

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 10:33:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

rafe bustin wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:53:42 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
> <geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>WELL! That would be a key piece of information, wouldn't it! Now maybe
>>we can see what I mean by all of these books, articles, and help files
>>talking around the subject. I didn't read that one anywhere that I can
>>remember. They just tell you to set your print space to Adobe RGB and
>>Use ICM.
>
>
>
> Set print space to Adobe RGB? Show me one book or website
> that says to do that.
>
> Adobe RGB is a perfectly fine working space, not a print space.

Well, first of all, in the drop down list of print spaces that we are
asked to select from, there certainly is an Adobe RGB selection, and
also an Epson Adobe RGB, as well as "Same as Source," which is, usually,
Adobe RGB.

But also in

file:///C:/Program%20Files/Adobe/Photoshop%20CS/Help/help.html

there is a screen grab which shows them selecting Adobe RGB in the print
space box, and "Turn off Color Management." Splain that!

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 12:00:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote:
>> EXACTLY. All you have to do is make a few rounds of TEST PRINTS.
>>
>> The whole point of using Colour Management is to predict what the Print is
>> going to look like, FIRST TIME round.
>>
>> Once the system is set up, you would KNOW exactly how the Print will look
>> when it has dried.

> That's the ideal - in reality, even the presses make proof prints
> and test prints and double-check on the go as they print books,
> magazines, etc. off their calibrated workflows.

Things are changing. These days, more and more proofing is being done
with soft proofs.

> You'd have to make dozens, if not hundreds, of test color chart
> prints alone just to see what the entire inkjet print gamut of your
> printer will appear like after it has dried.

In practice this doesn't seem to be necessary. Certainly, some
printers make more linear profiling targets than others, and no
profile is perfect. However, a well-profiled printer will give prints
that are of excellent quality in most cases.

> Here, if you simply look at the gamut of a CRT/LCD monitor
> overlayed on a inkjet gamut, you will see the difference between the
> two - they simply don't cover the same area!

No, obviously not. If they did there would be no point to colour
management.

> This begs the question - if you see a certain, let's say,
> bright green on the monitor that simply looks unbelievably juicy
> green, how do you print this when the printer doesn't have a juicy
> green color?

You soft proof. You already know that the monitor green is far
brighter and more saturated than anything you can print, so that isn't
a problem. Where it might become a problem is when you're trying to
print colours that are outside the monitor gamut, and then there is
real skill, I admit that.

> If you simply color manage and calibrate, all the pipeline will
> do is simply map that juicy green to the closest green the system
> picks (not necessarily the best green for the job).

No, that's not how real colour management works. You are describing
straight colorimetric rendering, which may be the best way to render
the image, but in many cases won't be. At the time of printing you
need to choose how an image is rendered from the working space to the
output space. It is the responsibility of the user to choose the best
way to render the image, and this is an artistic, not a technical
decision.

> What you end up with is a nice picture, but not necessarily the
> 'best' print you can make -- here is where you, the human, comes
> into play to tweak the colors so that the final print (using the
> limited greens it does have) looks as juicy as possible (not
> necessarily looking 'identical' or as close as possible to the
> original).

> I have read up on all of the color mgmt articles,
> publications, etc. of note out there, and the fundamental conclusion
> is that color management and calibration will get you closer to
> ideal and allow you to make a sound judgement based on what the
> screen image looks, but it still won't allow you to make a 'perfect'
> print all the time w/o round of test prints and tweaks - simply
> because the color gamuts don't match perfectly.

There are some colours such as bright orange that are outside the
gamut of anything that can be displayed or printed, and it might be
necessary to do a few test prints. This may happen from time to time.
But it should be a rare event, not commonplace.

Andrew.
April 20, 2005 1:30:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

rafe bustin wrote:


>
>
> Studying and reading help, but the problem with ICC
> based color management is that there's not much
> consistency in the way it's handled within applications
> and drivers -- and no book can possibly cover all cases.

You do have to read up on your printers settings that turn off color
managment etc. Qimage deals with all this fairly easily..


>
> So studying and reading are useful but unfortunately
> no guarantee of success, particularly when you try to
> make and apply your own profiles.
>

It taught me not to mess with the cheap flatbed scanner type profile
creation software packages! If you ever want to try this, pay someone like
Cathy's to make a profile for your printer using high end measuring devices
(and you calibrating your monitor of course) and that's really about all
there is to it if you understand what's going on and what the profiles are
there for.

--

Stacey
April 20, 2005 2:37:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"C Wright" <wright9_nojunk@nojunk_mac.com> wrote in message
news:BE8A781A.22ADD%wright9_nojunk@nojunk_mac.com...
> On 4/19/05 7:02 AM, in article Lr69e.15696$It4.1775@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net,
> "Roy" <royphoty@iona-guesthouse.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I should have worked that one out when you were saying that no matter how
>> you set PS or the Printer, nothing changed.
>> -------SNIPPED---------
>> From what has been said in this thread, there does not seem to be any way
>> in
>> Canon of selecting "No Colour Management" like there is in Epson. So it
>> will be best to use your Printer to do the CM. So In PS set "Source" to
>> Adobe RGB and "Print Space" to Use Printer Mngmt, then in Your Canon
>> Driver
>> select ICM or if there is one "Auto".
>>
>> Hope this helps. It was worth persevering - maybe?
>>
>> Roy G
>>
>>
> The above is all good advice, but a few corrections. Canon *does* provide
> paper profiles with with their printers. They are installed along with
> the
> printer driver. The names are a bit cryptic so they might not be
> immediately
> recognizable. For example, the profile with the designation MP1 in the
> name
> stands for matte paper; the profile with the designation PR2 in the name
> stands for photo paper pro. Also, the canon printer drivers do indeed
> allow
> 'no color management' to be selected. (As others have said, this does not
> literally mean no color management; it means that *you* are doing the
> color
> management and you are setting the printer driver to not again try to
> manage
> what you have already done.)
> Chuck
>

Thanks Chuck.

I don't have acess to a Canon Printer, and was just going by what the other
posters seemed to be saying, or rather, not saying.

Could you tell Gary how to set his printer so that it will actually use the
ICC profiles to Colour Manage.

Are these profiles included in the Windows Folders, or are they just within
the Printer Driver. If the former, then we might be able to get him to use
Soft Proof, so that he can see what his print should look like before
printing, or perhaps that might just be a step too far meantime.

Roy G
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 3:32:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:33:15 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
<geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:


>Well, first of all, in the drop down list of print spaces that we are
>asked to select from, there certainly is an Adobe RGB selection, and
>also an Epson Adobe RGB, as well as "Same as Source," which is, usually,
>Adobe RGB.
>
>But also in
>
>file:///C:/Program%20Files/Adobe/Photoshop%20CS/Help/help.html
>
>there is a screen grab which shows them selecting Adobe RGB in the print
>space box, and "Turn off Color Management." Splain that!


I can't see a file on your PC, so the screen grab
is lost on me. And it's too late in the day to try
to imagine what the context might have been.

But the fact is, AdobeRGB is a common, practical
working space, and not printer space. AdobeRGB is
completely device-independent.

A printer profile is something you'd select in
Photoshop, in the "Print With Preview" dialog box,
under Color Management/Print Space/Profile.
You'd select a rendering _intent_ at the same time.

You really need to do some reading and careful,
controlled practice. The "theory" of ICC based
color management isn't too difficult, but the
implementation is a minefield.

ICM is sort of a red herring, and best left out
of the discussion. Suffice to say, ICM comes into
play only when you default on setting a printer
profile (in either the app or driver) and all ICM
does is to select the default printer profile.

If you don't default, ICM is irrelevant.



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 5:43:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 4/19/05 5:37 PM, in article jKf9e.13424$WP4.2118@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net,
"Roy" <royphoty@iona-guesthouse.co.uk> wrote:


>> The above is all good advice, but a few corrections. Canon *does* provide
>> paper profiles with with their printers. They are installed along with
>> the
>> printer driver. The names are a bit cryptic so they might not be
>> immediately
>> recognizable. For example, the profile with the designation MP1 in the
>> name
>> stands for matte paper; the profile with the designation PR2 in the name
>> stands for photo paper pro. Also, the canon printer drivers do indeed
>> allow
>> 'no color management' to be selected. (As others have said, this does not
>> literally mean no color management; it means that *you* are doing the
>> color
>> management and you are setting the printer driver to not again try to
>> manage
>> what you have already done.)
>> Chuck
>>
>
> Thanks Chuck.
>
> I don't have acess to a Canon Printer, and was just going by what the other
> posters seemed to be saying, or rather, not saying.
>
> Could you tell Gary how to set his printer so that it will actually use the
> ICC profiles to Colour Manage.
>
> Are these profiles included in the Windows Folders, or are they just within
> the Printer Driver. If the former, then we might be able to get him to use
> Soft Proof, so that he can see what his print should look like before
> printing, or perhaps that might just be a step too far meantime.
>
> Roy G
>
>
I can't speak directly about where in the Windows folders these profiles are
since I typically use a Mac! But, the profiles should be in a separate
profile file and are not part of the printer driver itself. In Photoshop in
the Print With Preview dialog box under Print Space / Profile all of the
profile listings should be available. For my current Canon printer, an
i9900, they are listed as:
Canon i9900 MP1, Canon i9900 PR1, Canon i9900 PR2, and Canon i9900 SP1.
MP1 is for matte, PR1 is for photo paper pro, PR2 is for photo paper pro -
higher quality, and SP1 is for photo paper glossy. If Gary can't find them
I would suggest an e-mail or call to Canon. Also, checking Canon's web site
for updated drivers would not hurt!
Chuck
April 20, 2005 6:41:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

>
>
> rafe bustin wrote:
>
>> Ya know, Stacey, I'm not at all inclined to argue
>> the point. Lord knows how much time, money, ink
>> and paper I've thrown at those cheap scanner-based
>> profiling packages.

I'm glad the book I read discouraged me from even trying them..


>>
>> My problem is finding good media that I can stick
>> with over time -- the lack thereof makes purchased
>> profiles a bit expensive.

I decided to use ilford classic pearl and so far seems like a good choice
for this canon printer.

>>
>> OTOH, the next step up from Profile Prism ($79) is
>> the Gretag Eye One Photo ($1250, street) and for
>> the difference I suppose I could get lots of profiles
>> from Cathy.

Yep, 31 to be exact...

>
> Cathy???

http://www.cathysprofiles.com/


Unsolicited testimonial. They work great.

--

Stacey
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 7:35:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

C Wright wrote:

> I can't speak directly about where in the Windows folders these profiles are
> since I typically use a Mac! But, the profiles should be in a separate
> profile file and are not part of the printer driver itself. In Photoshop in
> the Print With Preview dialog box under Print Space / Profile all of the
> profile listings should be available. For my current Canon printer, an
> i9900, they are listed as:
> Canon i9900 MP1, Canon i9900 PR1, Canon i9900 PR2, and Canon i9900 SP1.
> MP1 is for matte, PR1 is for photo paper pro, PR2 is for photo paper pro -
> higher quality, and SP1 is for photo paper glossy. If Gary can't find them
> I would suggest an e-mail or call to Canon. Also, checking Canon's web site
> for updated drivers would not hurt!

Well, those particular drivers wouldn't help me, because the 9900 is an
8-color printer and mine is 6. Might get one soon, though.

And no, all that shows up in my Photoshop printer profiles for Canon is
"BJ Color Printer 2000."

Gary Eickmeier
April 20, 2005 7:35:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

>
> And no, all that shows up in my Photoshop printer profiles for Canon is
> "BJ Color Printer 2000."
>


That file doesn't work. You have to let the printer deal with color
managment as that "profile" isn't a single paper profile but is a bundled
one for every type of paper..
--

Stacey
!