Nivdia 560 TI problem

[ifoundgoldbug]

Greetings,

I got a new vid card, a nvidia 560 ti, for Bilbo and our gaming rigs are nearly identical our procs are both windsor 3.0ghz dual cores mine is 125W and hers is 89W and my ram is 1 speed faster than hers both rigs have 4 gb (for full specs follow this link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtrgNubtH-GgdExLeV81Y3VnLTRoN2ZWOTZjWkRQS1E&hl=en_US) BUT for some reason my 9800 gts in thorin is kicking the pants off of the 560 TI in bilbo

We are playing league of legends on identical settings and Thorins 9800 GTS is getting a full 60FPS which will dip down to mid 30's or so under heavy load. Bilbo will surge a lot but seems to settle somewhere in the low 40's or upper 30s and it will drop down to low 10's under heavy loads.

I suspect that it is because Bilbo's power supply is only 480W and Thoin's has a 750W.

Or am I missing something completely?

Thank you all for your time in reading this

 

[larkspur]

If the below linked newegg picture is the same one as you have then I would say your PSU is underpowered for that setup. Notice how its advertised as a 480W with the case but the picture of the PSU actually says 400W maximum? Yikes. Plus it is a really unknown make. Underpowered/off-brand PSUs can definitely cause problems but it is usually in system stabilty (e.g. like strange resets, BSoDs, lockups, etc) not in system performance. But maybe it could affect performance, I don't know. I do think your 560ti should beat the 9800gt all things equal. Is Thorin gaming on the same resolution monitor? Is Thorin overclocking the CPU?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageGallery.aspx?CurImage=11-148-029-03.jpg&Image=11-148-029-01.jpg%2c11-148-029-02.jpg%2c11-148-029-04.jpg%2c11-148-029-03.jpg%2c11-148-029-14.jpg%2c11-148-029-07.jpg%2c11-148-029-05.jpg%2c11-148-029-15.jpg%2c11-148-029-18.jpg%2c11-148-029-17.jpg%2c11-148-029-16.jpg%2c11-148-029-19.jpg%2c11-148-029-20.jpg%2c11-148-029-21.jpg%2c11-148-029-12.jpg%2c11-148-029-11.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16811148029&Depa=0&Description=LOGISYS%20Computer%20Area%2051%20CS51WSL%20Silver%20Steel%20ATX%20Mid%20Tower%20Computer%20Case%20480W%20Power%20Supply

 

[BlackHawk91]

Ok,
First there's a huge bottleneck with the systems, it is worse with the windsor/560 ti. ( I think LoL is a CPU intensive game) and that athlon is holding the 560 ti back.
Second, NEITHER of those power supplies are good. Specially the 480W, please swap them at least. You could kill your newer card w/ that PSU.
Third, I think it's time for you to move to a newer platform.

 

[ilysaml]

Welcome to the forum,
That google spreadsheet is a little pain, tell me what resolution are you playing at ?
anyway you should know that the CPU of Bilbo's PC will bottleneck the GTX 560ti, you need a strong quad core CPU in order to handle the massive data transferred between the GPU and CPU.
another thing, Bilbo's PSU and yours are garbage PSUs (sorry to say that) you need a 80+ certified PSU in order to run the card effectively without a lag of performance or firing out your whole system.
you need a good quality PSU such as this in order to keep your system at a good health
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371044&Tpk=antec%20earthwat%20650

 

[ifoundgoldbug]

Thorin is not overclocked and they are on 1900x1200 resolutions although bilbos might be something like 1900X1080 (i am not at home to look at it for sure) but they are very similar in resolution.

As i have mentioned this computer is my fiance's so we are saving for the wedding and budgetary constraints are a major issue thus the old platforms and garbage PSU's I just need to limp these along till i can build new rigs probably jan 2013

 

[ilysaml]

ok whatever, it's not the main problem, the main problem is that you gotta change bilbo's PSU and CPU in order to max out the game finely
within a few days bilbos 560ti will fire out because of that PSU

 

[larkspur]

...you need a 80+ certified PSU in order to run the card effectively without a lag of performance or firing out your whole system.

80+ ratings only measure efficiency. As long as he buys a quality PSU with enough true power on the rails, he will be fine. It just so happens that most quality power supplies also have an 80+ rating. Generally the larger the capacity PSU the easier it is to achieve an 80+ rating.

With regards to the CPU bottleneck - he's getting lower frames than the same CPU (basically) with a weaker gpu so correct me if I wrong but the lower frames aren't CPU-related. This looks like too weak a PSU. But yeah, the 560ti is not going to be fully utilized by that processor. Doesn't mean you can't get playable framerates in that game though.

 

[larkspur]

ok whatever, it's not the main problem, the main problem is that you gotta change bilbo's PSU and CPU in order to max out the game finely
within a few days bilbos 560ti will fire out because of that PSU

I don't think he needs to change the CPU if he just wants comparable framerates to the same CPU with a 9800gt. Again, correct me if I'm wrong but Thorin is smacking Bilbo around while having the same CPU and a weaker graphics card. The PSU has gotta be the problem, not the CPU right?

ifoundgoldbug - You risk doing permanent damage to your entire system (hard drives, everything) while continuing to overstress that PSU. Overstressing PSUs can actually lead to fires. It is worth it to spend $55 on this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371016

 

[ilysaml]

80+ ratings only measure efficiency. As long as he buys a quality PSU with enough true power on the rails, he will be fine. It just so happens that most quality power supplies also have an 80+ rating. Generally the larger the capacity PSU the easier it is to achieve an 80+ rating.

With regards to the CPU bottleneck - he's getting lower frames than the same CPU (basically) with a weaker gpu so correct me if I wrong but the lower frames aren't CPU-related. This looks like too weak a PSU. But yeah, the 560ti is not going to be fully utilized by that processor. Doesn't mean you can't get playable framerates in that game though.

youngster, i don't misunderstand the 80% power rating. This is a rating of the PSU's energy efficiency not it's output. and i can tell you the differences between the Bronze, Silver & Gold in details if you want...
to emphasize my sayings, Cooler master GX series is a 80+ certified even though they are creepy PSUs for crossfire/ SLi
i said 80+ certified because most qood quality PSUs are certified and are known for the efficiency when taking off the full wattage of the PSU.

A GPU is responsible for converting the data sent to it by the CPU into the pixels, addresses, and other items required for display.
if the CPU is not as strong as the GPU, the GPu will be bottlenecked by the CPU

 

[ilysaml]

Again, and that's his case, in the other machine the Athlon 64 X2 is doing just fine with the 9800 Gt 512 DDR3, but that's not the kinda CPU to handle the 560ti
so the OP gotta first solve the PSU issue, secondly the CPU issue

 

[beenthere]

The PSU should NOT alter the Vid card performance. Either the PSU supplies sufficient power to run without crashing or it doesn't.

As far as PSUs are concerned, be informed. Before you buy any PSU read accurate, objective PSU reviews at reputable sites such as www.jonnyguru.com or www.hardwaresecrets.com on the EXACT model PSU that you are interested in as some brands have good and poor quality PSUs.

You can also get an accurate rating of how much PSU power is required for your current or future system at the PSU calculator link below. Once you know the total PSU watts required then you need to confirm that the 12v rail has enough amps. to support your Vid card(s) and the rest of the PC system.

There are several websites that show the Vid card power consumption in watts. Divide the watts by 12 to determine the amps. required on the 12v rail(s). Add 15 amps for the rest of the PC on the 12v rail and you now know the Minimum total 12v rail amps required under full load. It's best to have at least 5-10 amps. reserve on the 12v rail available under full load so the PSU is not loaded to 100%.
It's also worth noting that people often misunderstand the 80% power rating. This is a rating of the PSU's energy efficiency not it's output. 80% plus PSUs use less grid power to produce the same PC power. If it's 80% Bronze, Silver or Gold the cost savings on electricity is pretty small between Bronze, Silver and Gold unless you are paying very high rates for electricity so any 80% rated quality PSU is fine even if not Gold. For those who leave their PC on 24/7 a quality 80% PSU is a good investment.


http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-560-ti-sli-review/14

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_560_Ti/25.html

IT'S BETTER TO TEACH A PERSON HOW TO FISH THAN TO GIVE THEM A FISH FOR DINNER !

 

[larkspur]

Again, and that's his case, in the other machine the Athlon 64 X2 is doing just fine with the 9800 Gt 512 DDR3, but that's not the kinda CPU to handle the 560ti
so the OP gotta first solve the PSU issue, secondly the CPU issue

+rep for calling me a youngster!

Since I am clearly in my "youth" I want to be sure I learn from this experience. You are saying that he would get better framerates with an Athlon 64 X2 paired with a 9800GT than he would get with an Athlon 64 X2 paired with a 560ti. I do not dispute your wisdom, I only wish to know more specifically why?

 

[ilysaml]

i'm not downgrading from your knowledge, i'm always glad to argue and benefit from anyone...

As i said before, A GPU is responsible for converting the data sent to it by the CPU into the pixels, addresses, and other items required for display.

If a CPU is taking a long time to calculate where a person is at or where they're aiming, then how is the GPU supposed to draw that to the screen? It waits for the CPU to "finish" and then draws it. (As simple as that)

you can review my contributions in the other threads i posted
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/325995-33-video-card-question-bottleneck-microprocessor
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/326880-33-looking-video-card#t2433625

and this thread at Toms explains it very well
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/304301-31-point-bottleneck

Edit:and you can google both CPU and GPU bottleneck you'll get better info than from me

 

[ifoundgoldbug]

I would also like to know why i am getting so much better framerates on the 9800gts. because at this point since i was hoping to use the 560TI as the base card in a future box but with this performance i am seriously considering returning it and just getting another 9800 GTS.

and in reference to my CPU being the bottleneck i am ok with that. as for now it should handle most of what i can throw at it until i can build a pair of gaming rigs in 2013. (weddings are so expenisve>,<)

 

[larkspur]

i'm not downgrading from your knowledge, i'm always glad to argue and benefit from anyone...

As i said before, A GPU is responsible for converting the data sent to it by the CPU into the pixels, addresses, and other items required for display.

If a CPU is taking a long time to calculate where a person is at or where they're aiming, then how is the GPU supposed to draw that to the screen? It waits for the CPU to "finish" and then draws it. (As simple as that)

No one here is disputing or has disputed that his processor is going to bottleneck a 560ti. But what you are not explaining is why the nearly identical processor returns better frame rates on a 9800gt than on the 560ti.

If the CPU is the bottleneck then the frame rates should be nearly the same for both those configs since the CPU is nearly identical. <-- This is the statement you are telling me is wrong. And I very humbly am asking if someone can explain why that statement is wrong.

 

[ilysaml]

really i don;t understand you now, and you don't seem to get it at all!!
SIMPLY, you can't put a high end GPU with a low end CPU or vice versa.

why? because the CPU can't keep up (it's like having to hike at the speed of the slowest person up a mountain; the CPU, being the slowest, holds back the GPU).

 

[Dugimodo]

Swap the Video cards and prove if it's the machine or the card causing the issue?
Does the game support directX10 / 11 and have you got the latest drivers on both machines? sometimes newer drivers have worse performance on particular titles (although usually better).

What was the old card and did you completely remove it's drivers?, is the PCIe slot a 16x one? you didn't install the card in a 4x slot or something?

As to the CPU bottleneck, sure it is, but if the CPU can support 60fps on one GPU it can support it on the other. Unless some setting is forcing it to do more work. Putting a better graphics card in should never LOWER your performance, at least not significantly. Check all the graphics options are the same.

Regarding the PSU comments, it's the heart of your PC and arguably the most important component. You really should invest in a quality one when you have the money. Cheap ones may work and may never fail, but the odds are much higher that they will fail and take other components with them.

 

[larkspur]

really i don;t understand you now, and you don't seem to get it at all!!
SIMPLY, you can't put a high end GPU with a low end CPU or vice versa.

why? because the CPU can't keep up (it's like having to hike at the speed of the slowest person up a mountain; the CPU, being the slowest, holds back the GPU).

Have you read the OP's original post and reviewed his two systems' configurations? He has 2 systems with identical CPUs. One system has a 9800gt, the other has a 560ti. The system with the 9800gt plays his game at 60fps. The system with the 560ti plays his game at 30fps. Again, the CPUs are identical. I am simply asking why this is happening. You keep saying over and over that the 560ti is being held back by the CPU. We know the 560ti won't reach its full potential with that CPU. But why isn't it at least providing comparable framerates to the 9800gt system when clearly the CPU is the limiting factor NOT the graphics cards?

 

[larkspur]

As to the CPU bottleneck, sure it is, but if the CPU can support 60fps on one GPU it can support it on the other. Unless some setting is forcing it to do more work. Putting a better graphics card in should never LOWER your performance, at least not significantly. Check all the graphics options are the same.

That is the point I am trying to make but am being told I am wrong. All I want to do is get it right.

 

[ilysaml]

simply this can't be happen, because it's like the dedicated chips in the 560ti is working as a standalone to perform the same functions ( converting the data into the pixels, addresses, and other items required for display.) because of the CPU bottleneck.
you'll ask how the 560ti is gonna perform such function, i'll tell you that a GPU is a graphics processing unit works with a VRAM to perform such operations

so the 560ti is worthless without a good CPU

 

[larkspur]

ifoundgoldbug - I noticed your board on Bilbo has onboard graphics. Double-check that the onboard graphics controller is disabled in your bios. I'm just not buying that a 560ti is being raped by a 9800gt with the same CPU. Driver optimizations I would start to believe. I would even believe that the 560ti's driver path is more CPU intensive. I would also believe that the 560ti's DX9 performance is poor. But to get half the framerates?

 

[spentshells]

Just to be clear the windsor is the faster of the 6000+

 

[ifoundgoldbug]

Well there is a new development in this mystery. the power supply in bilbo was inaccurate. The power supply in bilbo wasn't that 480W no name supply but a 600 watt Rosewill. So the PSU is not the problem. I still swapped the PSU's just to be sure. But still low frame rates.

I am going to try swapping the 9800 GTS and the 560ti tonight and see if thorin will see a lower frame rate as well.

Would a CPU upgrade give me the performance help and if so what CPU should i get?

Any ideas on how to get some additional frame rates would be fantastic thank you very much for your time.