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PS4 and Xbox720 - when do you want them to come out?

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Anonymous
May 23, 2005 5:14:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

how long should the coming generation last -- 5 years?

when should PS4 and Xbox720 come out? 2010, 2011 or 2012 ?

what concept should these future systems have: should they be
conventional style consoles with improved graphics, storage and
functions, or something completely new to home videogames, such as
V.R. or holographic projections ?

any other ideas?

More about : ps4 xbox720

Anonymous
May 23, 2005 8:16:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

optimusprimettf@yahoo.com wrote:
> how long should the coming generation last -- 5 years?
>
> when should PS4 and Xbox720 come out? 2010, 2011 or 2012 ?
>
> what concept should these future systems have: should they be
> conventional style consoles with improved graphics, storage and
> functions, or something completely new to home videogames, such as
> V.R. or holographic projections ?
>
> any other ideas?

With the PS3 supporting dual 1080 progressive output, and performing at
over 2 teraflops, I can see it lasting well beyond the standard 5-year
console lifespan. The xbox360, with its more limited capabilities,
will probably need to be replaced much sooner. Maybe that's been
Microsoft's strategy all along... accelerate their console cycle to the
point that they're not in line with Sony... so they can launch the
xbox3 in 2008 or 2009 with no competition.

--
Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
cable@creaturecantina.com
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 8:49:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

<optimusprimettf@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1116836056.381901.36690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> how long should the coming generation last -- 5 years?
>
> when should PS4 and Xbox720 come out? 2010, 2011 or 2012 ?
>
> what concept should these future systems have: should they be
> conventional style consoles with improved graphics, storage and
> functions, or something completely new to home videogames, such as
> V.R. or holographic projections ?
>
> any other ideas?
>

I personally am waiting for the Xbox 15120, with googlephonic stereo and a
moonrock needle - er, I mean moonrock crystal media laser.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 10:23:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

Bill Cable wrote:

"With the PS3 supporting dual 1080 progressive output, and performing
at
over 2 teraflops, I can see it lasting well beyond the standard 5-year
console lifespan. The xbox360, with its more limited capabilities,
will probably need to be replaced much sooner. Maybe that's been
Microsoft's strategy all along... accelerate their console cycle to
the
point that they're not in line with Sony... so they can launch the
xbox3 in 2008 or 2009 with no competition."

--
Bill Cable


________


PS3 does not really provide over 2 teraflops of performance. first of
all, Sony said 2 teraflops or almost 2 teraflops, not over 2 teraflops.
secondly, the bulk of this PR-marketing tflops number is from the
graphics processor. so these are not real usable flops in a general
sense. remember Xbox GPU was rated at 80 Gflops which was also just
PR-fluff. in both cases, this is Nvidia's "NvFlops". the actual amount
of measurable flops in PS3 is 218 Gflops, which is less than one
quarter of a teraflop.
(256 Gflops is 1/4 of a teraflop).

the PS3, although it is indeed quite powerful, is not some amazing leap
in power, above and beyond what one might expect. it is actually a
smaller leap beyond PS2, than PS2 was beyond PS1.

I agree with your last comment though. Microsoft can launch Xbox3 in
2009 or so, with no competition from Sony for at least 3 years since
PS4 will not be ready for release until 2012 at the soonest.
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 10:57:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

Radeon350@yahoo.com wrote:
> PS3 does not really provide over 2 teraflops of performance. first
of
> all, Sony said 2 teraflops or almost 2 teraflops, not over 2
teraflops.
> secondly, the bulk of this PR-marketing tflops number is from the
> graphics processor. so these are not real usable flops in a general
> sense. remember Xbox GPU was rated at 80 Gflops which was also just
> PR-fluff. in both cases, this is Nvidia's "NvFlops". the actual
amount
> of measurable flops in PS3 is 218 Gflops, which is less than one
> quarter of a teraflop.
> (256 Gflops is 1/4 of a teraflop).

Well, those 1.8 Teraflops from the graphics processor DO count for
SOMETHING. I wouldn't toss them out as "unusable." And PS3's 218
Gflop Cell is still double to flops of the xbox360 processors' 115.

--
Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
cable@creaturecantina.com
May 23, 2005 11:49:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are basically the same.
Sony claims 2 teraplops because they count different. I read an article on
it a while back, but I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything I
have read, the systems will be about the same.
Xbox's major advantage will of course be it's highly popular XBox Live
service.

"Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116890184.009106.59270@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> optimusprimettf@yahoo.com wrote:
>> how long should the coming generation last -- 5 years?
>>
>> when should PS4 and Xbox720 come out? 2010, 2011 or 2012 ?
>>
>> what concept should these future systems have: should they be
>> conventional style consoles with improved graphics, storage and
>> functions, or something completely new to home videogames, such as
>> V.R. or holographic projections ?
>>
>> any other ideas?
>
> With the PS3 supporting dual 1080 progressive output, and performing at
> over 2 teraflops, I can see it lasting well beyond the standard 5-year
> console lifespan. The xbox360, with its more limited capabilities,
> will probably need to be replaced much sooner. Maybe that's been
> Microsoft's strategy all along... accelerate their console cycle to the
> point that they're not in line with Sony... so they can launch the
> xbox3 in 2008 or 2009 with no competition.
>
> --
> Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
> http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
> cable@creaturecantina.com
>
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 8:42:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

well you also should understand that the 1.8 TFLOPs for the graphics
processor is also a stretched figure. independantly figured ratings
for both the ATI GPU in Xbox360 and the Nvidia GPU in PS3 place them in
the 250 Gflop range. when I get ahold of the links to that, I post
them. but it shows the 2 GPUs are very close to each other in more
"real" Gflops. and going by their transistor counts (PS3 GPU = 300M
- Xbox360 GPU core 232M + 100M for eDRAM unit) should give you an idea
that they are fairly close in complexity.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 12:53:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"xTenn" <xTennRemovePart@tds.net> wrote in message
news:%23PF8kj9XFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>
> <optimusprimettf@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1116836056.381901.36690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> how long should the coming generation last -- 5 years?
>>
>> when should PS4 and Xbox720 come out? 2010, 2011 or 2012 ?
>>
>> what concept should these future systems have: should they be
>> conventional style consoles with improved graphics, storage and
>> functions, or something completely new to home videogames, such as
>> V.R. or holographic projections ?
>>
>> any other ideas?
>>
>
> I personally am waiting for the Xbox 15120, with googlephonic stereo and a
> moonrock needle - er, I mean moonrock crystal media laser.

As long as it has a remote on/of button. I'm tired of using my fingelonger
to turn off my Xbox.
May 24, 2005 9:07:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116899869.019717.61930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Radeon350@yahoo.com wrote:
> > PS3 does not really provide over 2 teraflops of performance. first
> of
> > all, Sony said 2 teraflops or almost 2 teraflops, not over 2
> teraflops.
> > secondly, the bulk of this PR-marketing tflops number is from the
> > graphics processor. so these are not real usable flops in a general
> > sense. remember Xbox GPU was rated at 80 Gflops which was also just
> > PR-fluff. in both cases, this is Nvidia's "NvFlops". the actual
> amount
> > of measurable flops in PS3 is 218 Gflops, which is less than one
> > quarter of a teraflop.
> > (256 Gflops is 1/4 of a teraflop).
>
> Well, those 1.8 Teraflops from the graphics processor DO count for
> SOMETHING. I wouldn't toss them out as "unusable." And PS3's 218
> Gflop Cell is still double to flops of the xbox360 processors' 115.

I thought that figure came from Sony where they took the most optimistic
Cell figure and the most pessimistic 360 figure and put them together. I'd
expect them to be about equal in real world terms.

>
> --
> Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
> http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
> cable@creaturecantina.com
>
May 25, 2005 9:07:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:

> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
> count different. I read an article on it a while back, but
> I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything I
> have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's major
> advantage will of course be it's highly popular XBox Live
> service.

Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have signed
up how is it highly popular ?
May 25, 2005 2:21:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

<optimusprimettf@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1116836056.381901.36690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> how long should the coming generation last -- 5 years?
>
> when should PS4 and Xbox720 come out? 2010, 2011 or 2012 ?


who cares 'bout PS4 & X720?

I CAN'T WAIT FOR PS9 & Xe^90

200000000000 times the human brain
only the pad 2.000.000.000 terablobs

so finally we'll get....

Toy Story in real time :D 
May 25, 2005 2:23:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:4294080a$0$1628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> "JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
> news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:
>
>> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
>> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
>> count different. I read an article on it a while back, but
>> I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything I
>> have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's major
>> advantage will of course be it's highly popular XBox Live
>> service.
>
> Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have signed
> up how is it highly popular ?

10% of xbox users is more than 2 milions of people that play online
do you find it popular now?
May 25, 2005 2:45:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

That percentile is erelavent. Some people have no way of getting broadband.
What I intended was that XBox Live is one of the most, if not THE most
popular online gaming network. And amoungst console online gaming,
certainly the dominating force. PS3 and Revolution may try, but Xbox
certainly has the leg up on online console gaming.


"Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4294080a$0$1628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> "JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
> news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:
>
>> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
>> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
>> count different. I read an article on it a while back, but
>> I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything I
>> have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's major
>> advantage will of course be it's highly popular XBox Live
>> service.
>
> Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have signed
> up how is it highly popular ?
>
>
May 25, 2005 2:52:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

The point is, they like to twist the truth a bit and exagerate specs to make
it SEEM like it's a better system. In reality, like I said, Xbox360 and PS3
will be about the same technically speaking which means features and games
(and some loyalty ties) will determine how each does this round. Right now,
Sony has about twice the market share as Microsoft in the console game.
Obviously there are more people who are loyal to Playstation. The main
advantages the new Xbox will have are 1. the 6 month head start, and 2. the
popluarity (amounst all online gamers) of the Live network.


"Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116899869.019717.61930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Radeon350@yahoo.com wrote:
>> PS3 does not really provide over 2 teraflops of performance. first
> of
>> all, Sony said 2 teraflops or almost 2 teraflops, not over 2
> teraflops.
>> secondly, the bulk of this PR-marketing tflops number is from the
>> graphics processor. so these are not real usable flops in a general
>> sense. remember Xbox GPU was rated at 80 Gflops which was also just
>> PR-fluff. in both cases, this is Nvidia's "NvFlops". the actual
> amount
>> of measurable flops in PS3 is 218 Gflops, which is less than one
>> quarter of a teraflop.
>> (256 Gflops is 1/4 of a teraflop).
>
> Well, those 1.8 Teraflops from the graphics processor DO count for
> SOMETHING. I wouldn't toss them out as "unusable." And PS3's 218
> Gflop Cell is still double to flops of the xbox360 processors' 115.
>
> --
> Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
> http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
> cable@creaturecantina.com
>
May 25, 2005 2:59:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio

> Well, those 1.8 Teraflops from the graphics processor DO count for
> SOMETHING.

only for vertex/pixel computing
this is definitively a different thing, as like potatos and carrots



I wouldn't toss them out as "unusable." And PS3's 218
> Gflop Cell is still double to flops of the xbox360 processors' 115.

false
115 is for the 3 core
but every core had a VMX unit (15 Gflop each for a total of 45 GFlops)

115 + 45 = 160 GFlops ok?

the general purpose power of x360 tricore is almost triple than cell power
(cell has only one ppe @ 3.2 Ghz)


and cell, with integer and FP in double precision, drops his performance to
1/10
that's bad, very bad for tasks as I.A., emulating, and so on
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 4:53:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

Radeon350@yahoo.com wrote:

> I agree with your last comment though. Microsoft can launch Xbox3 in
> 2009 or so, with no competition from Sony for at least 3 years since
> PS4 will not be ready for release until 2012 at the soonest.

Does anyone else think this is a bad idea? Microsoft accelerating the
hardware cycle doesn't mean that everyone who bought their old console
will buy their new one. Even if they do, and I know I'm only one
person, but I'm thinking I'm more likely to wait for the price to go
way down (read: even bigger hardware losses for them) before I buy the
new one, at least if they keep this rate up. Surely I can't be the
only one.
May 25, 2005 5:05:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

* * wrote in microsoft.public.xbox:

> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:4294080a$0$1628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> "JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
>> news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:

>>> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
>>> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
>>> count different. I read an article on it a while back, but
>>> I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything I
>>> have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's major
>>> advantage will of course be it's highly popular XBox Live
>>> service.

>> Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have signed
>> up how is it highly popular ?

> 10% of xbox users is more than 2 milions of people that play online
> do you find it popular now?

No, 10% does not insinuate popularity.

--
David
You look like a million dollars. All green and wrinkled.
May 25, 2005 5:26:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"SINNER" <99nesorjd@gates_of_hell.invalid> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:p 19em2x2rt.ln2@news.gates_of_hell.com...
>* * wrote in microsoft.public.xbox:
>
>> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> news:4294080a$0$1628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>>> "JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
>>> news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:
>
>>>> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
>>>> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
>>>> count different. I read an article on it a while back, but
>>>> I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything I
>>>> have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's major
>>>> advantage will of course be it's highly popular XBox Live
>>>> service.
>
>>> Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have signed
>>> up how is it highly popular ?
>
>> 10% of xbox users is more than 2 milions of people that play online
>> do you find it popular now?
>
> No, 10% does not insinuate popularity.

rotfl
May 25, 2005 5:33:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"*" <si si, bravo, indovinato@ba.it> wrote in
news:9mYke.939932$b5.41109110@news3.tin.it:

>
> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:4294080a$0$1628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> "JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
>> news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:
>>
>>> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
>>> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
>>> count different. I read an article on it a while back,
>>> but I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything
>>> I have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's
>>> major advantage will of course be it's highly popular
>>> XBox Live service.
>>
>> Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have
>> signed up how is it highly popular ?
>
> 10% of xbox users is more than 2 milions of people that
> play online do you find it popular now?
>

According to MS they're gonna hit 2 millions at the end of June.
I agree, it's a large number by itself, but I just don't find
10% popular if remeining 90% are not interested.
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 5:33:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42947ead$0$86508$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
> According to MS they're gonna hit 2 millions at the end of June.
> I agree, it's a large number by itself, but I just don't find
> 10% popular if remeining 90% are not interested.
>

2 million is extremely popular for a online gaming system dedicated to
consoles (definitely a niche market). Your sample set (xbox owners) is only
an inference to the online portion. Not unlike some car detailing companies
that offer service based on a flat fee, not per service. Popular for a
detailing company , yes, but as compared to all the cars sold it is MUCH
less than 10% total.

Same for Geico Insurance for MiniVans, for example. Popular, yes, but still
less than 10% of minivans produced have that insurance (AFAIK).
May 25, 2005 7:00:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"TheShujin" <ucphenom82@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117050818.739959.225580@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Radeon350@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> I agree with your last comment though. Microsoft can launch Xbox3 in
>> 2009 or so, with no competition from Sony for at least 3 years since
>> PS4 will not be ready for release until 2012 at the soonest.
>
> Does anyone else think this is a bad idea? Microsoft accelerating the
> hardware cycle doesn't mean that everyone who bought their old console
> will buy their new one. Even if they do, and I know I'm only one
> person, but I'm thinking I'm more likely to wait for the price to go
> way down (read: even bigger hardware losses for them) before I buy the
> new one, at least if they keep this rate up. Surely I can't be the
> only one.
>


you are right, and I dont think Microsoft would bring out another new Xbox
until at least 2010 or later
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 8:00:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

Jeremey wrote:
> The point is, they like to twist the truth a bit and exagerate specs to make
> it SEEM like it's a better system. In reality, like I said, Xbox360 and PS3
> will be about the same technically speaking which means features and games
> (and some loyalty ties) will determine how each does this round. Right now,
> Sony has about twice the market share as Microsoft in the console game.
> Obviously there are more people who are loyal to Playstation. The main
> advantages the new Xbox will have are 1. the 6 month head start, and 2. the
> popluarity (amounst all online gamers) of the Live network.

Since Sony has sold over 80,000,000 PS2s, while microsoft has sold
about 20,000,000 xboxs, how do you figure Sony only has twice the
market share?

--
Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
cable@creaturecantina.com
May 25, 2005 8:12:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

Previous Gen - 1995
Current Gen - 1999
Next Gen - 2005
Next Next Gen - 2011

- Jordan
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 8:34:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

* wrote:
> "Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > Well, those 1.8 Teraflops from the graphics processor DO count for
> > SOMETHING.
>
> only for vertex/pixel computing
> this is definitively a different thing, as like potatos and carrots

And your position is that vertex/pixel computing has no effect on
graphics? ;-)

> I wouldn't toss them out as "unusable." And PS3's 218
> > Gflop Cell is still double to flops of the xbox360 processors' 115.
>
> false
> 115 is for the 3 core
> but every core had a VMX unit (15 Gflop each for a total of 45 GFlops)
>
> 115 + 45 = 160 GFlops ok?

Oh come on now... you can no more simply add the VMX Gflops to the core
flops than you can add the graphic processor flops. Who's talking
"potatoes and carrots" now?

> the general purpose power of x360 tricore is almost triple than cell power
> (cell has only one ppe @ 3.2 Ghz)
>
> and cell, with integer and FP in double precision, drops his performance to
> 1/10 that's bad, very bad for tasks as I.A., emulating, and so on

Well, that's where the game programmers come in. I think they'll be
able to make a lot more use out of the PS3's cell processor despite
it's limited "general purpose power" than they will with the 360's
flacid flops. Remember, this is a gaming console they're
manufacturing, not a PC.

Besides... I've played hundreds of games, and I have yet to encounter
an A.I. system that isn't dumb as rocks. You might find some enemies
with a few gimmicks or tricks based on the environment, but never
anything all that impressive. That's the fault of the programmers, not
the hardware. And with emulating... from what I hear the PS3 will have
a PS2 chip in it for backward compatability.

I just don't see any shortcomings with the PS3, based on the data to
date.

--
Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
cable@creaturecantina.com
May 26, 2005 2:11:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Jeremey" <fake@tc3net.com> wrote in
news:D 723500199g@enews2.newsguy.com:

> That percentile is erelavent. Some people have no way of
> getting broadband. What I intended was that XBox Live is
> one of the most, if not THE most popular online gaming
> network. And amoungst console online gaming, certainly the
> dominating force. PS3 and Revolution may try, but Xbox
> certainly has the leg up on online console gaming.

What is relevant then ? That opinion has to be based on
something. Number of users ? Only makes sense if
you compare it to something. Take Blizzard for
instance, they have 1.5 million WoW subscribers add to that
Diablo 2, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft and you have more users than
that of XL. And don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the service.
I just don't think that a service that is used only by 10% of
people is a major advantage. After all it was MS that said they
didn't think it was important to add backward compatibility for
10% of people (their estimate of PS2 owners who wanted it).
BTW, do you believe that the rest of XB owners can't get
broadband ?

> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:4294080a$0$1628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> "JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
>> news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:
>>
>>> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
>>> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
>>> count different. I read an article on it a while back,
>>> but I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything
>>> I have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's
>>> major advantage will of course be it's highly popular
>>> XBox Live service.
>>
>> Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have
>> signed up how is it highly popular ?
>>
>>
>
>
May 26, 2005 2:34:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"xTenn" <xTennRemovePart@tds.net> wrote in
news:o pOpaLTYFHA.2520@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl:

>
> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:42947ead$0$86508$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>>
>> According to MS they're gonna hit 2 millions at the end of
>> June. I agree, it's a large number by itself, but I just
>> don't find 10% popular if remeining 90% are not
>> interested.
>>
>
> 2 million is extremely popular for a online gaming system
> dedicated to consoles (definitely a niche market). Your
> sample set (xbox owners) is only an inference to the online
> portion. Not unlike some car detailing companies that
> offer service based on a flat fee, not per service.
> Popular for a detailing company , yes, but as compared to
> all the cars sold it is MUCH less than 10% total.

You lost me with this analogy.

> Same for Geico Insurance for MiniVans, for example.
> Popular, yes, but still less than 10% of minivans produced
> have that insurance (AFAIK).

This analogy is flawed. The rest of minivans are still insured
with other companys (at least they should be :)  ). If there are
hundreds of insurance companies you can pick from, then the
percentage of cars/vans/trucks they insure can be a small number
and still be considered a popular choice. In case of XBox
the choices are either Live or nothing, which brings me to my
original point. For the sake of the argument lets assume that
the rest 90% can't get broadband, even if they bought Xbox
thinking that eventually BB will be offered in their areas
they're not just looking at it. There must have been other,
more influential reasons for buying it. So as good as Live is
I don't think it is a major advantage or a deciding factor,
not for majority anyway.
May 26, 2005 10:58:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1117064087.756817.216690@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>* wrote:
>> "Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>> > Well, those 1.8 Teraflops from the graphics processor DO count for
>> > SOMETHING.
>>
>> only for vertex/pixel computing
>> this is definitively a different thing, as like potatos and carrots
>
> And your position is that vertex/pixel computing has no effect on
> graphics? ;-)

it has
but you can't add this "flops" to cpu "flops", the cpu is fully programable,
th gpu no, stop
then if you get 3.0 shaders as like rsx, you're limited to shaders 3.0
processing, a cpu is far more elastic, just "potatos and carrots" ;) 

sony disloyal, make the fanboys believe that ps3 can add all the flops as
like they are making a vegetable soup
simply it make no sense



>
>> I wouldn't toss them out as "unusable." And PS3's 218
>> > Gflop Cell is still double to flops of the xbox360 processors' 115.
>>
>> false
>> 115 is for the 3 core
>> but every core had a VMX unit (15 Gflop each for a total of 45 GFlops)
>>
>> 115 + 45 = 160 GFlops ok?
>
> Oh come on now... you can no more simply add the VMX Gflops to the core
> flops than you can add the graphic processor flops. Who's talking
> "potatoes and carrots" now?

you're in confusion, brother

the vmx are highly specialized units analogue the spe in cell
if you don't like to add this flops, then you have to detract those of spe
from cell, obtaining a third of the power of a tri-ppe @ 3.2 ;) 

do you undestand?



>
>> the general purpose power of x360 tricore is almost triple than cell
>> power
>> (cell has only one ppe @ 3.2 Ghz)
>>
>> and cell, with integer and FP in double precision, drops his performance
>> to
>> 1/10 that's bad, very bad for tasks as I.A., emulating, and so on
>
> Well, that's where the game programmers come in. I think they'll be
> able to make a lot more use out of the PS3's cell processor despite
> it's limited "general purpose power" than they will with the 360's
> flacid flops. Remember, this is a gaming console they're
> manufacturing, not a PC.

you're so wrong (and biased, fanboy smell)
the next gen console are multimedia units not simply a console as ps2, the
general purpose power is very useful, and even in the games there's a lot of
GP-computating, x360 can easy fully dedicate one core to IA, another to
procedural synthesis, another to physics and the rest

Cell have 7 spe but only one ppe, and this poor chip attend to all the
normal computing (IA, physics, and so on)
PLUS vertex processing (lol, even if it's less capable the rsx, do you
remember your "flops" of comparison?), 3dd audio processing
it has so much to do and so little bandwitch to exchange data (I laught
thinking of filled bus when ps3 will turn AA filter on)

the structure of the whole machine is inelegant, and rsx is a pc 3d card
plugged in tardy

sony believed to make a console with 2 cell, but last year they drop toshiba
for nvidia, and the time was insufficient to make a customized gpu that fit,
the result is what is today a ps3, an inelegant ensemble of GFlops without
much sense

>
> Besides... I've played hundreds of games, and I have yet to encounter
> an A.I. system that isn't dumb as rocks. You might find some enemies
> with a few gimmicks or tricks based on the environment, but never
> anything all that impressive.

that's the today gen, and I agree
but we're talking about the next gen, ok?


That's the fault of the programmers, not
> the hardware.

no that's a limit hardware, cause the IA spent A LOT of general purpose
power of the CPU, the programmes can't do miracles

And with emulating... from what I hear the PS3 will have
> a PS2 chip in it for backward compatability.

link please
May 26, 2005 8:46:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

You are too funny.
The playstation came out nearly 2 years before the XBox and continued to
sell more units even when the Xbox did come out. History has nothing to do
with market share though. A company's market share is it's current
percentage of $$ that company makes out of total $$ spent in that industry.
So if Sony holds 45% of the market, then that means 45% of all revenue
generated by console games is from Sony sales. The statistic I previously
quoted (Sony has nearly twice the market share as MS) was from an article I
cannot find right now. I found a similar article
(http://insidemicrosoft.blogspot.com/2004/12/xbox-gainin...)
dated december 15,2004 which stats that PS2 currently holds 45% vs
Microsoft's 37%. I thought MS was a bit lower, like around 33% but oh well.
The point is that the Xbox is superior to PS2 in terms of technical specs,
but that doesn't mean it has more market share. One major reason PS2 is
ahead is that it was released first. This is why I feel that XBox360's 6
month head start may give them the momentum they need to eventually exceed
Sony's market share. The growing popluarity of Xbox live will certainly
help.



"Bill Cable" <billcable@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117062024.667761.154590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Jeremey wrote:
>> The point is, they like to twist the truth a bit and exagerate specs to
>> make
>> it SEEM like it's a better system. In reality, like I said, Xbox360 and
>> PS3
>> will be about the same technically speaking which means features and
>> games
>> (and some loyalty ties) will determine how each does this round. Right
>> now,
>> Sony has about twice the market share as Microsoft in the console game.
>> Obviously there are more people who are loyal to Playstation. The main
>> advantages the new Xbox will have are 1. the 6 month head start, and 2.
>> the
>> popluarity (amounst all online gamers) of the Live network.
>
> Since Sony has sold over 80,000,000 PS2s, while microsoft has sold
> about 20,000,000 xboxs, how do you figure Sony only has twice the
> market share?
>
> --
> Bill Cable - Steelers Fan & Star Wars Collector
> http://CreatureCantina.com <----- funny!
> cable@creaturecantina.com
>
May 26, 2005 9:01:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4294f7f8$0$13518$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> "Jeremey" <fake@tc3net.com> wrote in
> news:D 723500199g@enews2.newsguy.com:
>
>> That percentile is erelavent. Some people have no way of
>> getting broadband. What I intended was that XBox Live is
>> one of the most, if not THE most popular online gaming
>> network. And amoungst console online gaming, certainly the
>> dominating force. PS3 and Revolution may try, but Xbox
>> certainly has the leg up on online console gaming.
>
> What is relevant then ? That opinion has to be based on
> something. Number of users ? Only makes sense if
> you compare it to something.

My statement about Xbox live being a selling point for the next generation
consoles is based on the popularity of Xbox Live currently when compared to
other console gaming networks. You have Sony - free, yet not organized and
no where near up to the standards of Live, and then you have Nintendo and
their non-existant network. My point is, MS is way ahead when it comes to
online console gaming. Even if Sony and Nintendo step it up a notch (Which
they certainly will), it will be dificult to catch up to what MS has already
established.


> that of XL. And don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the service.
> I just don't think that a service that is used only by 10% of


10% = 1.5million. Multiply that by at least $50 a year and the revenue that
MS gets from Live is certainly nothing to think of as small.



> people is a major advantage. After all it was MS that said they
> didn't think it was important to add backward compatibility for
> 10% of people (their estimate of PS2 owners who wanted it).

The Xbox 360 will be backwards compatible. It has been confirmed. This is
old news. Do some research.

> BTW, do you believe that the rest of XB owners can't get
> broadband ?

Certainly not, but to get a proper statistic, you need to find out how many
Xbox owners have broadband, and then find out what percentage of those
owners have Live.



>
>> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:4294080a$0$1628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>>> "JMoney" <jn@tc3net.com> wrote in
>>> news:D 6tq680j9m@enews3.newsguy.com:
>>>
>>>> Your logic if flawed. The XBox 360 and the PS3 are
>>>> basically the same. Sony claims 2 teraplops because they
>>>> count different. I read an article on it a while back,
>>>> but I don't remember the source. Anyway, from everything
>>>> I have read, the systems will be about the same. Xbox's
>>>> major advantage will of course be it's highly popular
>>>> XBox Live service.
>>>
>>> Not to nitpick, but if less than 10% of XBox users have
>>> signed up how is it highly popular ?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
May 27, 2005 2:02:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

"Jeremey" <fake@tc3net.com> wrote in
news:D 75dif012t@enews3.newsguy.com:

> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:4294f7f8$0$13518$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> "Jeremey" <fake@tc3net.com> wrote in
>> news:D 723500199g@enews2.newsguy.com:
>>
>>> That percentile is erelavent. Some people have no way of
>>> getting broadband. What I intended was that XBox Live is
>>> one of the most, if not THE most popular online gaming
>>> network. And amoungst console online gaming, certainly
>>> the dominating force. PS3 and Revolution may try, but
>>> Xbox certainly has the leg up on online console gaming.
>>
>> What is relevant then ? That opinion has to be based on
>> something. Number of users ? Only makes sense if
>> you compare it to something.
>
> My statement about Xbox live being a selling point for the
> next generation consoles is based on the popularity of Xbox
> Live currently when compared to other console gaming
> networks. You have Sony - free, yet not organized and no
> where near up to the standards of Live, and then you have
> Nintendo and their non-existant network. My point is, MS
> is way ahead when it comes to online console gaming. Even
> if Sony and Nintendo step it up a notch (Which they
> certainly will), it will be dificult to catch up to what MS
> has already established.
>
>
>> that of XL. And don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the
>> service. I just don't think that a service that is used
>> only by 10% of
>
>
> 10% = 1.5million. Multiply that by at least $50 a year and
> the revenue that MS gets from Live is certainly nothing to
> think of as small.

I never questioned that, although you have to factor in their
expences, running such a monster can't be cheap.

>> people is a major advantage. After all it was MS that said
>> they didn't think it was important to add backward
>> compatibility for 10% of people (their estimate of PS2
>> owners who wanted it).
>
> The Xbox 360 will be backwards compatible. It has been
> confirmed. This is old news. Do some research.

That's not what I meant. My point was that MS themselves
claimed that a feature that's used/wanted by only 10% of owners
is not an advantage. Secondly, I don't know what to believe when
it comes to backward compatibility of 360. Some sites claim
that only top selling games will be compatible meaning that they
will have to be recompiled, other sites claim that no
recompiling will be necessary. I'll believe it when I see it.


>> BTW, do you believe that the rest of XB owners can't get
>> broadband ?
>
> Certainly not, but to get a proper statistic, you need to
> find out how many Xbox owners have broadband, and then find
> out what percentage of those owners have Live.
>
May 27, 2005 6:43:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.video.sony-playstation2,alt.games.video.xbox,microsoft.public.xbox (More info?)

My point still was and is that XBox live is more popular than any other
online CONSOLE gaming networks. Online gaming is what the next generation
will be all about. More and more people are getting broadband and wanting
to game online. My point is simply that MS has an advantage in that they
have already built a very large online community that has a pretty good
reputation amounst gamers. Sony will certainly step it up as will Nintendo,
and I welcome it. Comepetition only makes things better for us consumers.


"Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42964778$0$18189$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> "Jeremey" <fake@tc3net.com> wrote in
> news:D 75dif012t@enews3.newsguy.com:
>
>> "Zero" <zero@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:4294f7f8$0$13518$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>>> "Jeremey" <fake@tc3net.com> wrote in
>>> news:D 723500199g@enews2.newsguy.com:
>>>
>>>> That percentile is erelavent. Some people have no way of
>>>> getting broadband. What I intended was that XBox Live is
>>>> one of the most, if not THE most popular online gaming
>>>> network. And amoungst console online gaming, certainly
>>>> the dominating force. PS3 and Revolution may try, but
>>>> Xbox certainly has the leg up on online console gaming.
>>>
>>> What is relevant then ? That opinion has to be based on
>>> something. Number of users ? Only makes sense if
>>> you compare it to something.
>>
>> My statement about Xbox live being a selling point for the
>> next generation consoles is based on the popularity of Xbox
>> Live currently when compared to other console gaming
>> networks. You have Sony - free, yet not organized and no
>> where near up to the standards of Live, and then you have
>> Nintendo and their non-existant network. My point is, MS
>> is way ahead when it comes to online console gaming. Even
>> if Sony and Nintendo step it up a notch (Which they
>> certainly will), it will be dificult to catch up to what MS
>> has already established.
>>
>>
>>> that of XL. And don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the
>>> service. I just don't think that a service that is used
>>> only by 10% of
>>
>>
>> 10% = 1.5million. Multiply that by at least $50 a year and
>> the revenue that MS gets from Live is certainly nothing to
>> think of as small.
>
> I never questioned that, although you have to factor in their
> expences, running such a monster can't be cheap.
>
>>> people is a major advantage. After all it was MS that said
>>> they didn't think it was important to add backward
>>> compatibility for 10% of people (their estimate of PS2
>>> owners who wanted it).
>>
>> The Xbox 360 will be backwards compatible. It has been
>> confirmed. This is old news. Do some research.
>
> That's not what I meant. My point was that MS themselves
> claimed that a feature that's used/wanted by only 10% of owners
> is not an advantage. Secondly, I don't know what to believe when
> it comes to backward compatibility of 360. Some sites claim
> that only top selling games will be compatible meaning that they
> will have to be recompiled, other sites claim that no
> recompiling will be necessary. I'll believe it when I see it.
>
>
>>> BTW, do you believe that the rest of XB owners can't get
>>> broadband ?
>>
>> Certainly not, but to get a proper statistic, you need to
>> find out how many Xbox owners have broadband, and then find
>> out what percentage of those owners have Live.
>>
!