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What is the point of integrated graphics???

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April 23, 2012 9:25:08 PM

A lot of the hubbub about Ivy Bridge has to do with how much better its integrated graphics core is than Sandy Bridge, and people often talk about how Haswell will handle graphics integration, especially in comparison to AMD's current line of "A"PU's.

I understand that integrated graphics might be nice if you're using a netbook or something, but what in the world is the point of it if you're using a desktop, the vast majority of which have a discrete graphics card? Ivy Bridge may be a godsend to notebooks, but Intel also produces CPU's for desktop computers, too! Why would any of us care about a miniscule GPU buried away in our processor, when we're never going to use it because we have our own dedicated graphics processor?
a b à CPUs
April 23, 2012 9:29:45 PM

Hi :) 

I own Computer shops and sell a a lot of machines to homes and businesses , both Pcs and Laptops...

The MAJORITY of buyers are NOT gamers and if they can SEE the screen, thats all they ask...

Thats the point....

All the best Brett :) 
a c 203 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 9:37:50 PM

For people like me.
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a c 203 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 9:39:08 PM

Tig2575 said:
Why would any of us care about a miniscule GPU buried away in our processor
How does it feel to be part of small minority group?
April 23, 2012 9:40:45 PM

What about the 3770k, which is obviously intended for enthusiast users? Why in hell would intel bother with including "more powerful" (i.e. not quite as good as a GT 440) integrated graphics, on a chip that will virtually only be used by people who will have discrete GPUs?
a c 203 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 9:41:47 PM

Intel does that just to make you enthusiast guys crazy.
April 23, 2012 9:49:04 PM

WR2 said:
Intel does that just to make you enthusiast guys crazy.


I would appreciate a genuine explanation of the underlying principle, rather than unwarranted, borderline immature hostility.
a b à CPUs
April 23, 2012 9:49:50 PM

AND its a great backup/diagnostic aid when your screen goes blank and you're not sure if it's your fancy GPU...
a c 203 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 9:50:23 PM

And it sounds like Intel's strategy is working well.
a c 203 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 9:51:42 PM

Tig2575 said:
I would appreciate a genuine explanation of the underlying principle, rather than unwarranted, borderline immature hostility.
It was right there in the first reply to your topic.
April 23, 2012 9:54:10 PM

WR2 said:
It was right there in the first reply to your topic.


I was hoping someone could explain integrated graphics emphasis in enthusiast models (like the 3770K) that will only be used by people with discrete GPU's. The first reply to this topic doesn't explain that
a c 203 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 10:00:24 PM

Tig2575 said:
I was hoping someone could explain integrated graphics emphasis in enthusiast models (like the 3770K) that will only be used by people with discrete GPU's. The first reply to this topic doesn't explain that
It actually does.
It's not like they could take the IGP out just for 5% of the market and rework the rest of the CPU to ... do something they feel doesn't need to be done at this point in time.
The basic underlying principle is a business decision.
a b à CPUs
April 23, 2012 10:02:39 PM

'While there have been relatively minor changes to the CPU component of the chip, Intel also claims to have made significant improvements to Ivy Bridge’s integrated graphics processor (IGP). The Intel HD graphics 4000 found in both the Core i7-3770K and the Core i5-3570K sees the execution unit (EU) count rise from 12 in Intel HD 3000 to 16, as well as support for, at last, DirectX 11. Of course, no self-respecting PC enthusiast would want to run their system solely off of integrated graphics, but it’s a step in the right direct for mass-market users, and still brings the advantages of technologies such as Intel’s Quick Sync video, which benefit from the increased EU count'.
April 23, 2012 10:16:47 PM

Gotcha, thanks, all. Going forward, is there any potential for using the IGP to help process additional computations alongside of the CPU, that would never have been relegated to discrete graphics cards because of the relative slowness of PCIe?
a c 283 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 11:06:32 PM

Tig2575 said:
Gotcha, thanks, all. Going forward, is there any potential for using the IGP to help process additional computations alongside of the CPU, that would never have been relegated to discrete graphics cards because of the relative slowness of PCIe?


Quick Sync... Even though CUDA is great, Quick Sync is much faster and gives better quality video transcoding. HD 4000 just makes it even faster.

Edit: Not to mention the fact that using the HD 4000 graphics with Virtu MVP (with a Z77 mobo and a discreet GPU, of course) might actually help gaming performance.
a b à CPUs
April 23, 2012 11:17:47 PM

My logic would lead me to believe that intel is equiping these chips with their ne HD 4000 graphics in an attempt to reclaim the onboard GPU performance crown from AMD, just a gues though I could be completely wrong. The back-up to discrete failure is kind of nice though.
a c 172 à CPUs
April 23, 2012 11:36:37 PM

I have 6 :o  desktops. My three "personal" systems each have discrete graphics. One is pretty old - that's where my G80 640 MB 8800 GTS finally ended up.

My three "office" systems use entirely adequate G41 motherboards with built in graphics.

You all need to remember that, hard as it is to believe :) , we gamers are a niche market.

There are also a lot of people with "K" chips that use them for other than gaming tasks. And for them, the built in graphics are more than adequate.
April 24, 2012 4:10:53 AM

Thanks, all :) 
a c 83 à CPUs
April 24, 2012 4:33:10 AM

Tig2575 said:
What about the 3770k, which is obviously intended for enthusiast users? Why in hell would intel bother with including "more powerful" (i.e. not quite as good as a GT 440) integrated graphics, on a chip that will virtually only be used by people who will have discrete GPUs?


Because there are many reasons to purchase a powerful processor like the 3770K and if your not going to game, than the integrated graphics are usually more than powerful enough. All Intel did was move the graphics from the motherboard chipset to the processor, it's not like they added something that wasn't there before. :lol: 
a b à CPUs
April 24, 2012 6:30:01 AM

Assuming that watercooled machines are rare in the 'mass market' (Brett?) there must be a limit to concentrating processing power into single units relying on heatsink/fan for cooling....
a b à CPUs
April 24, 2012 6:48:39 AM

I can't speak for the ivy bridge chips, and not gonna bother looking them up, but The 2500k does not support integrated graphics. I'd imagine the enthusiast targeted chips will come sans intergrated graphics support as well.

p.s., the four-core hyper-threaded chips like the 2600k are not targeted at enthusiasts, imo. As AMD has so gracefully shown us *cough*, games aren't gonna use 8 cores any time soon.

The vast majority of PC's use integrated graphics, not discrete cards.
a c 283 à CPUs
April 24, 2012 6:59:31 AM

Quote:
The 2500k does not support integrated graphics


Um, yes it does. The 2500K absolutely DOES have integrated graphics. HD 3000, specifically. The 2550K is the one that doesn't have an iGPU...

AND enthusiasts may not use the iGPU for gaming or anything, but it can certainly be used for Quick Sync with Virtu (I do).
a c 446 à CPUs
April 24, 2012 7:32:24 AM

The Intel HD 4000 is there so that you can play BF3 without a discrete graphic card @ 640x480 resolution in all it's glory... with ummm... medium quality?
a b à CPUs
April 24, 2012 7:42:12 AM

DJDeCiBeL said:
Quote:
The 2500k does not support integrated graphics


Um, yes it does. The 2500K absolutely DOES have integrated graphics. HD 3000, specifically. The 2550K is the one that doesn't have an iGPU...
.


Fair enough. Wrong model, same point.

I suppose they either hadn't figured out which model to target at enthusiasts at launch, or, being a virgin fabrication, just didn't screw with too much in the beginning.
a b à CPUs
April 24, 2012 9:37:41 AM

dodger46 said:
Assuming that watercooled machines are rare in the 'mass market' (Brett?) there must be a limit to concentrating processing power into single units relying on heatsink/fan for cooling....



Hi :) 

Almost non existant...

All the best Brett :) 
April 24, 2012 9:51:31 AM

Also on the new motherboards you can use on-board graphics and integrated graphics alongside your main gpu.
a b à CPUs
April 24, 2012 9:59:39 AM

mercer95 said:
Also on the new motherboards you can use on-board graphics and integrated graphics alongside your main gpu.

Like an SLi board?
April 24, 2012 10:24:16 AM

Having an IGP can be handy if you are waiting a few months for a particular video card to get released and you just want to do non-gaming tasks in the meantime.


Because I didn't have that option, I was "forced" to buy something that I didn't really want at the time, as I couldn't hold off on getting a new computer, so had to take the compromise choice on the GPU.

April 24, 2012 6:09:41 PM

I am not 100% sure about this but correct me if I am wrong. If you have integrated graphics and a mobo with an hdmi port you can have 2 HDMI displays going for one card setups that only have 1 hdmi port. So, I am running a gtx 480 with 1 hdmi ports to my 27'' monitor. Then I can have another HDMI hooked to another 1080p full HD monitor for my second display connected via the mobo port.

Edit: Actually this doesn't make sense. I bet you can still hook up via the mobo hdmi even without integrated graphics?
a b à CPUs
April 24, 2012 6:18:37 PM

niknovacain said:
I am not 100% sure about this but correct me if I am wrong. If you have integrated graphics and a mobo with an hdmi port you can have 2 HDMI displays going for one card setups that only have 1 hdmi port. So, I am running a gtx 480 with 1 hdmi ports to my 27'' monitor. Then I can have another HDMI hooked to another 1080p full HD monitor for my second display connected via the mobo port.

Edit: Actually this doesn't make sense. I bet you can still hook up via the mobo hdmi even without integrated graphics?

I would expect you'd have to choose between IGP and discrete GPU in the BIOS, pretty cool if you could run two displays for different apps tho!
April 24, 2012 6:40:14 PM

Tig,

don't mean to be a troll, but you are wrong, the VAST majority of desktop computers use IPG, Intel alone has ~52% of the total market share in what people use for graphics cards, Nvidia has ~24% and AMD has ~22%. Intel has basically as much of the market for graphics cards as AMD and Nvidia combined, and not all of those AMD and Nvidia PCs are discreet cards as AMD is making piles of money selling their new in the CPU IGP solutions.

the proof is in the pudding:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Intel-Loses-Graphics-Mar...

Dry
April 24, 2012 6:44:09 PM

^^^ and those numbers were from 2010, the numbers for '11 would probably show a growth for Intel and AMD.

Dry
April 24, 2012 8:11:59 PM

mercer95 said:
Also on the new motherboards you can use on-board graphics and integrated graphics alongside your main gpu.


In what way?

DryCreamer said:
Tig,

don't mean to be a troll, but you are wrong, the VAST majority of desktop computers use IPG, Intel alone has ~52% of the total market share in what people use for graphics cards, Nvidia has ~24% and AMD has ~22%. Intel has basically as much of the market for graphics cards as AMD and Nvidia combined, and not all of those AMD and Nvidia PCs are discreet cards as AMD is making piles of money selling their new in the CPU IGP solutions.

the proof is in the pudding:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Intel-Loses-Graphics-Mar...

Dry


Thanks for the info, Dry - you can color me surprised :) 

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a c 188 à CPUs
April 24, 2012 8:22:59 PM
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In the 9 years that I have been with Intel® the vast majority of systems that I have talked with people about have all used integrated graphics of one type or another. Heck even most of the computers that I have advised on for home users systems will use integrated graphics. The only time when to start to look at putting in a video card is when they are gamer or power some type of power users.
The Intel® HD 4000 graphics are powerful enough to provide even some of the gamers and power users enough performance to run their applications. So if you are a heavily gamer or someone who is doing heavily graphics work (i.e. video editing) then you might look at adding a video card but otherwise the on board graphics are good.


Christian Wood
Intel Enthusiast Team
April 24, 2012 9:37:15 PM

i think it's for the people who wants less power consumption
a c 446 à CPUs
April 24, 2012 9:55:34 PM

The Intel HD 4000 simply raises the bar of integrated graphic core performance in laptops for those people who cannot afford or do not want to spend a lot of money on a discrete graphic card in order to play games. At around a 40% - 45% increase in performance compare the Intel HD 3000, that represents a pretty good step up for a basic graphic core.

However, it is still slower compared to the Radeon HD 6550D graphic core in AMD's Llano A8 series APUs. AMD's upcoming Trinity APU will likely be the CPU of choice for laptop gamers on a limited budget. I haven't really seen any benchmarks of the graphics core in Trinity, but I would guess the performance should be pretty decent.

The Radeon HD 6550D is overall a little slower than the desktop Radeon HD 5570 graphics card (about 90% of the HD 5570). Conservatively speaking, Trinity will probably have a 30% increase in performance. If that holds true, then the best Trinity graphics core will be about as powerful as a Radeon HD 4670 desktop graphics card (with DX11 support) which is roughly equal to 80% of a Radeon HD 5670's performance.
April 25, 2012 8:25:07 AM

If in the next year or two, IGP's can get to the level of a discrete HD5770, then I will really start to pay attention.
April 25, 2012 12:40:37 PM

Chad,

Saying the IGP will reach 5770, I don't know. if they are stilling going to be built into the CPU, how will they keep it cool? I mean, the GPU's have shrunk enough that they can fit on the same die, but...

Maybe the Intel guy up above can answer that.

Dry
April 25, 2012 1:36:51 PM

DryCreamer said:
Chad,

Saying the IGP will reach 5770, I don't know. if they are stilling going to be built into the CPU, how will they keep it cool? I mean, the GPU's have shrunk enough that they can fit on the same die, but...

Maybe the Intel guy up above can answer that.

Dry

Obviously IGP's will eventually exceed the HD5770, but the relevant question to me is, are we talking one to two years or 5 years.

It seems that a lot of people get worked up about IGP performance that is hardly what I would want in a desktop anyway.
a c 203 à CPUs
April 25, 2012 1:40:38 PM

Trinity A10-5800K APU's IGP is going to be the Radeon HD 7660D.
We'll know in about 3 weeks just how close it sneaks up to the HD 5770.
April 26, 2012 6:04:51 PM

^^^ AMD needs to do something... if the APU's general computing ability is still less than Intel IPC, then what incentive would we have to not just buy an old Sandy Bridge dual core and a $60 (US) 5770 that is half the cost of a new A10?

sure the integrated solution will use less energy, but when you are crunching video files on PC, most end user consumers don't consider the energy use because its so short term, versus the upfront cost of the parts.

Dry
May 1, 2012 4:42:47 AM

Best answer selected by Tig2575.
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