Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

US laughs as the Koran is flushed down the toilet

Last response: in Digital Camera
Share
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 12:39:25 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm

The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
were used to rattle suspects.

It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
most holy book "down the toilet".
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:01:44 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Whats your point?
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 4:18:21 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Omega d wrote:
> <eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
> :
> : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
tactics
> : were used to rattle suspects.
> :
> : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
> : most holy book "down the toilet".
> :
>
> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
why are
> you bitching?

Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
Related resources
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 5:34:23 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
religion,
> >why are
> >> you bitching?
>
> The left is also into respect, or at least, refraining from taking
the
> most disrespectful action possible in a given situation. Our mission

> in that theatre is not supposed to be one of provocation. This one
> incident may ultimately cost the lives of American men in uniform.
> But you are comfortable just using it as another subject for your
tired
> old "blame the liberals" approach to denial.
>
> >Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
Islam?
> >What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> >down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
> >
>
> One difference is that the American soldiers would be more amused
than
> outraged at the idea of flushing middle school social studies
textbooks.
>

The US Constitution is not a middle school social study textbook.
Here's the text here:

http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/ch...

It's the document a person in the military swears their life on and is,
at least theoretically, the basis of US law.

> It simply would not be on the same level of outrage as a cultural
idiom.

If the USC is not a cultural idiom to the US, then what is? Only the
flag comes close. I know the USG treats the Constitution as toilet
paper, but people still treat the document as if it's been revealed
wisdom from on high.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 8:39:28 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Keith W wrote:
> "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1115973263.386480.78220@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
>
> >
> > If the USC is not a cultural idiom to the US, then what is? Only
the
> > flag comes close. I know the USG treats the Constitution as toilet
> > paper, but people still treat the document as if it's been revealed
> > wisdom from on high.
> >
>
> A map is not the territory, the constitution may be revealed wisdom
> but a copy is just words on paper.
>

So is every Qu'ran outside of the original inscribed by Muhammed. Is
that thing even around anymore?
May 13, 2005 9:18:59 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

<eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
:
: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
: were used to rattle suspects.
:
: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
: most holy book "down the toilet".
:

Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why are
you bitching?
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 9:45:32 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Paul F Austin wrote:
> "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote
> >
> > Omega d wrote:
> > > <eq@mailinator.com> wrote
> > > :
> > > : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
> > tactics
> > > : were used to rattle suspects.
> > > :
> > > : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
Islam's
> > > : most holy book "down the toilet".
> > > :
> > >
> > > Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
religion,
> > why are
> > > you bitching?
> >
> > Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
Islam?
> > What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US
Constitutions
> > down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
> >
>
> Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to
endure,
> on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?

I guess you can't see how this causes everyone else over there to get
pissed and just helps to fuel the resistance. Not that the US had the
right to be there in the first place, but since the USG is run by a
bunch of incompetents, this incident is just the most recent in a long
line of stupid (and sometimes brutal) things the USG has done since
declaring a phony "war on terror." Given that I despise the USG and am
depressed at the wilful ignorance of my fellow countrymen, I'm
embarrased to be an American.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 11:43:08 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote
>
> Omega d wrote:
> > <eq@mailinator.com> wrote
> > :
> > : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
> tactics
> > : were used to rattle suspects.
> > :
> > : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
> > : most holy book "down the toilet".
> > :
> >
> > Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
> why are
> > you bitching?
>
> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>

Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to endure,
on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?
May 13, 2005 11:57:48 AM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:

>> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
>why are
>> you bitching?

The left is also into respect, or at least, refraining from taking the
most disrespectful action possible in a given situation. Our mission
in that theatre is not supposed to be one of provocation. This one
incident may ultimately cost the lives of American men in uniform.
But you are comfortable just using it as another subject for your tired
old "blame the liberals" approach to denial.

>Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
>What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
>down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>

One difference is that the American soldiers would be more amused than
outraged at the idea of flushing middle school social studies textbooks.

It simply would not be on the same level of outrage as a cultural idiom.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 12:56:14 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Ron Hunter wrote:
> Chris Hayes wrote:
> > Omega d wrote:
> >
> >><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> >>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
> >>:
> >>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
> >
> > tactics
> >
> >>: were used to rattle suspects.
> >>:
> >>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
Islam's
> >>: most holy book "down the toilet".
> >>:
> >>
> >>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
religion,
> >
> > why are
> >
> >>you bitching?
> >
> >
> > Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
Islam?
> > What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US
Constitutions
> > down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
> >
> Why not? People here are allowed, at government expense, to place
> crosses in jars of urine, as 'art'. They are allowed to burn flags
as a
> protest, or to sew them on the backsides of their pants. Besides,
the
> courts have been flushing the constitution down the toilet for quite
a
> few years.
>

Hey, I agree with you that the courts have been dismantling the
Constitution. But politicians and the pundits make huge noise when
they see other people trashing the Constitution.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:05:18 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Ron Hunter wrote:
> Chris Hayes wrote:
> > Paul F Austin wrote:
> >
> >>"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote
> >>
> >>>Omega d wrote:
> >>>
> >>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote
> >>>>:
> >>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
> >>>
> >>>tactics
> >>>
> >>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
> >>>>:
> >>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
> >
> > Islam's
> >
> >>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
> >>>>:
> >>>>
> >>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
> >
> > religion,
> >
> >>>why are
> >>>
> >>>>you bitching?
> >>>
> >>>Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
> >
> > Islam?
> >
> >>>What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US
> >
> > Constitutions
> >
> >>>down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
> >>>
> >>
> >>Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to
> >
> > endure,
> >
> >>on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?
> >
> >
> > I guess you can't see how this causes everyone else over there to
get
> > pissed and just helps to fuel the resistance. Not that the US had
the
> > right to be there in the first place, but since the USG is run by a
> > bunch of incompetents, this incident is just the most recent in a
long
> > line of stupid (and sometimes brutal) things the USG has done since
> > declaring a phony "war on terror." Given that I despise the USG
and am
> > depressed at the wilful ignorance of my fellow countrymen, I'm
> > embarrased to be an American.
> >
> So, find a place you can live where you aren't embarrassed, and go
> there. WHY would anyone stay in a country where he hated the
government
> that much?

Because it's not easy economically and I got family and friends here.
I'll use what I can to change policy instead of running away.

> May I suggest you try the nice free, prosperous island south of
Florida?
> I am sure you will get a nice prospective on freedom, and
government
> integrity there.
>

Sieg Heil to you too. It's a damn good thing people like Martin Luther
King didn't run away because they didn't like the way things are. He
actually had courage, stood up to the "love it or leave it" herd
mentality, and tried to make it better.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:10:36 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

La N wrote:
> "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
in
> message news:fng9819vj5v2f6n473r39c4oltomn26o0f@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 13 May 2005 14:04:50 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "La N"
> > <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> in <6u2he.37885$0X6.32858@edtnps90>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com>
wrote in
> >>message news:0ob9819fs83u3gls2k1b05iuiosfni13ij@4ax.com...
> >>> On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:18:59 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "Omega"
> >>> <2121(d)@insightbb.com> in <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72>
wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
> >>>>:
> >>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
tactics
> >>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
> >>>>:
> >>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
Islam's
> >>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
> >>>>:
> >>>>
> >>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
religion, why
> >>>>are
> >>>>you bitching?
> >>>>
> >>> As a "leftists" I am "into" respecting varying viewpoints. You
are
> >>> right that I oppose the notion of the government, any government,
> >>> promoting a particular religion. I wonder why so many religious
people
> >>> think they need government help.
> >>>
> >>> I am also against the notion of trying to create more enemies for
the
> >>> U.S. You don't seem to mind that.
> >>>
> >>
> >>And the idjit who posted this article - it isn't so much that he's
> >>into Islam as he is into hating the U.S. Funny how many different
> >>ways this story can be spun and utilized for political purposes.
> >
> > I love the U.S. or, at least, what the U.S. stands for. As such I
find
> > the actions with the Koran reprehensible. It not only violates our
> > principles for an agent of the government to attack a religion, it
> > turns people against our soldiers in time of war. It helps our
enemies
> > and puts our soldiers in danger. It is just about treasonable.
> >
> >
>
> I agree, and I'm canadian. Unfortunately - as in the Abu Grhaib
> incident, people who hate the U.S. will make eternal political
> hay about such isolated incidents. I participate off and on on
> other private lists with different cultures, and I'll tell you these
> types of actions reinforce the negative stereotypes that people
> have about the U.S. - and particularly the U.S. Military.
>

It comes from the actions of the US government, who do serious harm to
people in other nations. Many in America are downright arrogant and
ignorant about the rest of the world. It's because the military is
meddling in too many people's affairs that there are movements of
radicals who'd commit acts we deem to be "terrorism." The CIA had a
name for unintended consequences of US policy: Blowback.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:16:24 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1115973263.386480.78220@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >james wrote:
> >> In article
<1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
> >religion,
> >> >why are
> >> >> you bitching?
> >>
> >> The left is also into respect, or at least, refraining from taking
> >the
> >> most disrespectful action possible in a given situation. Our
mission
> >
> >> in that theatre is not supposed to be one of provocation. This
one
> >> incident may ultimately cost the lives of American men in uniform.
> >> But you are comfortable just using it as another subject for your
> >tired
> >> old "blame the liberals" approach to denial.
> >>
> >> >Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
> >Islam?
> >> >What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US
Constitutions
> >> >down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
> >> >
> >>
> >> One difference is that the American soldiers would be more amused
> >than
> >> outraged at the idea of flushing middle school social studies
> >textbooks.
> >>
> >
> >The US Constitution is not a middle school social study textbook.
> >Here's the text here:
>
>
> You are missing the point. A devout Muslim is going to be a lot more
> upset at a deeper level if you desecrate the Koran that way, than
even
> the most patriotic American will be over the Constitution. Unless
> you're talking about desecrating the *original* document, then you
> might start to be in the same ballpark of outrage.
>
> I really don't believe that a single instance would be enough to
start a
> war, but this Koran incident just might.
>

I don't think this specific incident would cause any more real harm to
the US's image than the other types of actions they've done (Abu
Ghraib, torture of prisoners at Gitmo while leaving them in legal
limbo, invasion and destruction of a pretty much defenseless Iraq based
on lies). Given how talking heads on TV react to things, they might
well be enraged to find that being used in interrogations of US
soldiers.

>
>http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/ch...
> >
> >It's the document a person in the military swears their life on and
is,
> >at least theoretically, the basis of US law.
>
> Yes, but, we aren't a society that, to a man, holds that document to
be
> the most important aspect of daily life. Perhaps we *should*, but I
> promise you, most Americans have not conditioned themselves to study
and
> ponder the Constitution as the primary spiritual activity, the
endeavor
> that must occupy any idle time. The people getting upset about this
> Koran incident at the prison, *do* have that attribute.

The US Constitution is more a symbol than anything. It's pretty much
dead in America outside of it's symbolic uses to stir up patriotism.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:25:14 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Omega wrote:
> <eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
> :
> : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
> : were used to rattle suspects.
> :
> : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
> : most holy book "down the toilet".
> :
>
> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why are
> you bitching?
>
>
You misunderstand. The left isn't against ALL religion, just the
Judeo-Christian ones.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:27:39 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Chris Hayes wrote:
> Omega d wrote:
>
>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>>:
>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
>
> tactics
>
>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>:
>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>:
>>
>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
>
> why are
>
>>you bitching?
>
>
> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>
Why not? People here are allowed, at government expense, to place
crosses in jars of urine, as 'art'. They are allowed to burn flags as a
protest, or to sew them on the backsides of their pants. Besides, the
courts have been flushing the constitution down the toilet for quite a
few years.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:31:17 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
>>
>>why are
>>
>>>you bitching?
>
>
> The left is also into respect, or at least, refraining from taking the
> most disrespectful action possible in a given situation. Our mission
> in that theatre is not supposed to be one of provocation. This one
> incident may ultimately cost the lives of American men in uniform.
> But you are comfortable just using it as another subject for your tired
> old "blame the liberals" approach to denial.
>
>
>>Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
>>What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
>>down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>>
>
>
> One difference is that the American soldiers would be more amused than
> outraged at the idea of flushing middle school social studies textbooks.
>
> It simply would not be on the same level of outrage as a cultural idiom.
>
Now I am able to breathe again after rolling on the floor laughing at
your first statement about 'respect'... If one goes through life trying
to never offend anyone, he won't have much of a life as someone will
become offended at almost any statement, or action. There was even a
left-handers group protesting the use of the word 'sinister' to describe
the actions of a criminal, because the word means 'left' in some
languages!!! Now how stupid is THAT?
Now about showing respect, how about affording some measure of it to the
US President? I thought not...


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:33:56 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72>, "Omega"
<2121(d)@insightbb.com> wrote:

> <eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
> :
> : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
> : were used to rattle suspects.
> :
> : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
> : most holy book "down the toilet".
> :
>
> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why
> are
> you bitching?
>
>

Of course, Omega, the "Left" appears to be any group of people whose
opinions disagree with yours at some point in time. Your opinion seems
to vary about libertarians being irrelevant or some oddly neutral group.

You will find few people that feel as strongly as I do about keeping
public institutions religion-free, with some well-defined exceptions
[1]. At the same time, I've helped friends of assorted religion repair
their places of worship, congratulated them on religious events such as
coming-of-age, marriage, funerals and even ordination, and done other
things that clearly was supportive of their religious lives. There are
specific areas where my reading definitely includes religious thinkers
-- while I don't always agree with Pierre Teilhard du Chardin, I think
he was one of the most brilliant thinkers I have encountered. St. Thomas
Aquinas is a standard authority for even militant atheists that work in
bioethics.

From your perspective, that must sound confusing. I do not find it such,
because I am assisting friends in something important to them, but being
done in a manner to make it completely voluntary.

Flushing a Koran down the toilet is interfering with the free and
private (as much as it can be for a prisoner) expression of religion,
not impinging on those who do not desire to participate in it. I don't
have any problem with true moments of silence in places where attendance
is compulsory, such as schools. I have major problems with even
student-led prayer.

In the specific case, looking at techniques of interrogation, I am
unconvinced that "rattling" is an effective tool for getting information.

[1] I will make an exception for government support of religion in
those special cases where the worshipper has their personal
exercise of religion, in a manner that does not impinge on
others, limited as a result of civil authority. That would
include, for example, the military chaplaincy for soldiers
isolated from civilian alternatives for worship. Hospitals are
reasonable, again when things are voluntary. Even prisons can
have ceremony/clerics brought in.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:34:49 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>

>
> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>

I'd chuckle at their naivety

Keith
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:35:49 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <06Zge.31565$fI.28347@fed1read05>,
<fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:

> In article <1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
> >why are
> >> you bitching?
>
> The left is also into respect, or at least, refraining from taking the
> most disrespectful action possible in a given situation. Our mission
> in that theatre is not supposed to be one of provocation. This one
> incident may ultimately cost the lives of American men in uniform.
> But you are comfortable just using it as another subject for your tired
> old "blame the liberals" approach to denial.
>
> >Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
> >What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> >down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
> >
>
> One difference is that the American soldiers would be more amused than
> outraged at the idea of flushing middle school social studies textbooks.
>
> It simply would not be on the same level of outrage as a cultural idiom.
>

One would hope that the interrogators doing this have also planned to
have plumbers available. I have learned, the hard way, to keep the lid
down, not because of nagging women but from the ability of cats to knock
things in and cause floods.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:37:04 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Paul F Austin wrote:
> "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote
>
>>Omega d wrote:
>>
>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote
>>>:
>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
>>
>>tactics
>>
>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>>:
>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>>:
>>>
>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
>>
>>why are
>>
>>>you bitching?
>>
>>Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
>>What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
>>down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>>
>
>
> Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to endure,
> on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?
>
>
No, just the toe hairs. Much more effective, and leaves no marks.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:39:12 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Chris Hayes wrote:
> Paul F Austin wrote:
>
>>"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote
>>
>>>Omega d wrote:
>>>
>>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote
>>>>:
>>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
>>>
>>>tactics
>>>
>>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>>>:
>>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
>
> Islam's
>
>>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>>>:
>>>>
>>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
>
> religion,
>
>>>why are
>>>
>>>>you bitching?
>>>
>>>Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
>
> Islam?
>
>>>What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US
>
> Constitutions
>
>>>down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>>>
>>
>>Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to
>
> endure,
>
>>on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?
>
>
> I guess you can't see how this causes everyone else over there to get
> pissed and just helps to fuel the resistance. Not that the US had the
> right to be there in the first place, but since the USG is run by a
> bunch of incompetents, this incident is just the most recent in a long
> line of stupid (and sometimes brutal) things the USG has done since
> declaring a phony "war on terror." Given that I despise the USG and am
> depressed at the wilful ignorance of my fellow countrymen, I'm
> embarrased to be an American.
>
So, find a place you can live where you aren't embarrassed, and go
there. WHY would anyone stay in a country where he hated the government
that much?
May I suggest you try the nice free, prosperous island south of Florida?
I am sure you will get a nice prospective on freedom, and government
integrity there.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:45:45 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Howard Berkowitz wrote:
> In article <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72>, "Omega"
> <2121(d)@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>
>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>>:
>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>:
>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>:
>>
>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why
>>are
>>you bitching?
>>
>>
>
>
> Of course, Omega, the "Left" appears to be any group of people whose
> opinions disagree with yours at some point in time. Your opinion seems
> to vary about libertarians being irrelevant or some oddly neutral group.
>
> You will find few people that feel as strongly as I do about keeping
> public institutions religion-free, with some well-defined exceptions
> [1]. At the same time, I've helped friends of assorted religion repair
> their places of worship, congratulated them on religious events such as
> coming-of-age, marriage, funerals and even ordination, and done other
> things that clearly was supportive of their religious lives. There are
> specific areas where my reading definitely includes religious thinkers
> -- while I don't always agree with Pierre Teilhard du Chardin, I think
> he was one of the most brilliant thinkers I have encountered. St. Thomas
> Aquinas is a standard authority for even militant atheists that work in
> bioethics.
>
> From your perspective, that must sound confusing. I do not find it such,
> because I am assisting friends in something important to them, but being
> done in a manner to make it completely voluntary.
>
> Flushing a Koran down the toilet is interfering with the free and
> private (as much as it can be for a prisoner) expression of religion,
> not impinging on those who do not desire to participate in it. I don't
> have any problem with true moments of silence in places where attendance
> is compulsory, such as schools. I have major problems with even
> student-led prayer.
>
> In the specific case, looking at techniques of interrogation, I am
> unconvinced that "rattling" is an effective tool for getting information.
>
> [1] I will make an exception for government support of religion in
> those special cases where the worshipper has their personal
> exercise of religion, in a manner that does not impinge on
> others, limited as a result of civil authority. That would
> include, for example, the military chaplaincy for soldiers
> isolated from civilian alternatives for worship. Hospitals are
> reasonable, again when things are voluntary. Even prisons can
> have ceremony/clerics brought in.

Just one question? If you have no objection to 'moments of silence',
then why not student-led prayer? Do you believe you can FORCE someone
to pray? Do you believe that prayer somehow HARMS a person who doesn't
believe in a higher power? If so, wouldn't silence while people prayed
in close proximity cause harm? Does the prayer of people in a
restaurant, that you can't HEAR cause harm?



--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:48:05 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <vj0he.24534$RG2.18878@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Paul F
Austin" <pfaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote
> >
> > Omega d wrote:
> > > <eq@mailinator.com> wrote
> > > :
> > > : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
> > tactics
> > > : were used to rattle suspects.
> > > :
> > > : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
> > > : most holy book "down the toilet".
> > > :
> > >
> > > Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
> > why are
> > > you bitching?
> >
> > Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
> > What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> > down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
> >
>
> Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to endure,
> on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?
>

I think the professional jury is out on the use of painful methods for
very-short-term and critical tactical interrogation ("where is the bomb
you set?")

The history of effective strategic intelligence interrogation, from
sources including WWII POW interrogation on both sides, declassified
documents such as the CIA's journal _Studies in Intelligence_, and, in
general terms, a fair bit of classified information, suggests fairly
strongly that effective interrogations often involve forming some sort
of relationship between interrogator and prisoner. That relationship
may be very formal and authoritarian, but such that the interrogator is
clearly in charge, and the prisoner accepts the dominance hierarchy.

In other cases, especially with Western POWs, a certain degree of
kindness and bonding will work. German records from WWII show much more
was gained from Allied aircrews by friendly conversation, where things
would slip, than rubber hoses. Incidentally, it's often quite important
to record such "soft" interrogations, because the information often is
from half-completed sentences stopped when the prisoner suddenly
realizes what they are saying, or essentially neutral social information
that gives insights into being aware of the motivation and sensitivities
of individual prisoners, and their group. Going to Joe and asking if he
had enjoyed his pre-mission movie with John and Bill can give a sense of
"How much does this guy know?"

Good interrogators have an intuitive, or formal, training in applied
social science. For example, one technique that has been used with
Arabs, especially those uncertain what will happen, is for a perfectly
uniformed interrogator to have the prisoner sit down, and then, in
authoritative tones, order coffee and tea to be served with great
ceremony. Some interrogators will even place two filled cups in front
of the prisoner, and tell them to choose who will drink from which cup.
By doing so, the interrogator is trying to exploit the Arab customs of
hospitality, and also establishing the authority -- the one who can
order a servant to bring the beverages. For someone from a culture where
harsh treatment is the norm, this action can be MORE disorienting than a
beating, and helps the interrogator gain psychological dominance.

I suspect that female interrogators who are formal and authoritarian may
do better than those that flaunt themselves, or threaten to smear with
menstrual blood. This actually might be an appropriate area for
experimentation.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 1:56:52 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115973263.386480.78220@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>

>
> If the USC is not a cultural idiom to the US, then what is? Only the
> flag comes close. I know the USG treats the Constitution as toilet
> paper, but people still treat the document as if it's been revealed
> wisdom from on high.
>

A map is not the territory, the constitution may be revealed wisdom
but a copy is just words on paper.

Keith
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 2:01:40 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 13 May 2005 09:34:49 +0100, "Keith W"
<keithspam@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>
>>
>> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
>> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
>> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>>
>
>I'd chuckle at their naivety
>
>Keith
>

Close to, but not quite as funny, as the Iraqi (purported) battle cry
of "Curse you Bart Simpson" and the Japanese "Curse Babe Ruth".
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 2:06:53 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 13 May 2005 08:56:14 -0700, "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Ron Hunter wrote:
>> Chris Hayes wrote:
>> > Omega d wrote:
>> >
>> >><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> >>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>> >>:
>> >>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
>> >
>> > tactics
>> >
>> >>: were used to rattle suspects.
>> >>:
>> >>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
>Islam's
>> >>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>> >>:
>> >>
>> >>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
>religion,
>> >
>> > why are
>> >
>> >>you bitching?
>> >
>> >
>> > Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
>Islam?
>> > What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US
>Constitutions
>> > down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>> >
>> Why not? People here are allowed, at government expense, to place
>> crosses in jars of urine, as 'art'. They are allowed to burn flags
>as a
>> protest, or to sew them on the backsides of their pants. Besides,
>the
>> courts have been flushing the constitution down the toilet for quite
>a
>> few years.
>>
>
>Hey, I agree with you that the courts have been dismantling the
>Constitution. But politicians and the pundits make huge noise when
>they see other people trashing the Constitution.

And yet no one can get an anti-flag burning amendment passed. The
Constitution defends itself by its existence and most (by the
evidence) people understand that.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 3:58:14 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Chris Hayes wrote:
>
>
> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
Islam?

That's fine by me -- all the monotheisms can kill each other
off..."religion is the opium of the people"...this'll be just like your
local drug war....

> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?

I'd laugh, considering how most Americans don't read the Constitution.
Might as well tell 'em that Bart Simpson is getting on with their wives
back home!
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 4:17:41 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <WS2he.11636$fY4.6362@fe07.lga>, Ron Hunter
<rphunter@charter.net> wrote:

> Now about showing respect, how about affording some measure of it to the
> US President? I thought not...

What does "respect" mean in this specific context? I would be perfectly
willing to say, in a respectful tone, "Mr. President, I believe you are
wrong in the following policy, for these reasons XXX." In point of
fact, I have written Congressional testimony and various policy input
into government practices with which I disagree.

Intelligent disagreement respects the Constitution, to which the
President swears allegiance.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 5:10:03 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115984368.714836.292250@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Keith W wrote:
>> "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1115973263.386480.78220@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > If the USC is not a cultural idiom to the US, then what is? Only
> the
>> > flag comes close. I know the USG treats the Constitution as toilet
>> > paper, but people still treat the document as if it's been revealed
>> > wisdom from on high.
>> >
>>
>> A map is not the territory, the constitution may be revealed wisdom
>> but a copy is just words on paper.
>>
>
> So is every Qu'ran outside of the original inscribed by Muhammed. Is
> that thing even around anymore?
>

The first complete copy wasnt published until after the death of Muhammed
Indeed in the 30 years after his death there were considerable
disagreements over which version of the prophets utterances were the
revealed truth as he never ordered it be written in his lifetime.

Keith
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 5:45:41 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:18:59 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "Omega"
<2121(d)@insightbb.com> in <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72> wrote:

>
><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>:
>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
>: were used to rattle suspects.
>:
>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>:
>
>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why are
>you bitching?
>
As a "leftists" I am "into" respecting varying viewpoints. You are
right that I oppose the notion of the government, any government,
promoting a particular religion. I wonder why so many religious people
think they need government help.

I am also against the notion of trying to create more enemies for the
U.S. You don't seem to mind that.


--
Matt Silberstein

All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 6:04:50 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:0ob9819fs83u3gls2k1b05iuiosfni13ij@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:18:59 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "Omega"
> <2121(d)@insightbb.com> in <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72> wrote:
>
>>
>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>>:
>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>:
>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>:
>>
>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why
>>are
>>you bitching?
>>
> As a "leftists" I am "into" respecting varying viewpoints. You are
> right that I oppose the notion of the government, any government,
> promoting a particular religion. I wonder why so many religious people
> think they need government help.
>
> I am also against the notion of trying to create more enemies for the
> U.S. You don't seem to mind that.
>

And the idjit who posted this article - it isn't so much that he's
into Islam as he is into hating the U.S. Funny how many different
ways this story can be spun and utilized for political purposes.

- nilita
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 6:34:09 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 13 May 2005 07:43:08 -0400, in rec.photo.digital , "Paul F
Austin" <pfaustin@bellsouth.net> in
<vj0he.24534$RG2.18878@bignews5.bellsouth.net> wrote:

>
>"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote
>>
>> Omega d wrote:
>> > <eq@mailinator.com> wrote
>> > :
>> > : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
>> tactics
>> > : were used to rattle suspects.
>> > :
>> > : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>> > : most holy book "down the toilet".
>> > :
>> >
>> > Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
>> why are
>> > you bitching?
>>
>> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
>> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
>> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>>
>
>Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to endure,
>on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?
>
Actually, we are not allowed to interrogate prisoners of war. Which is
one of the reasons we play games with their status.


--
Matt Silberstein

All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:06:41 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 13 May 2005 09:48:05 -0400, in rec.photo.digital , Howard
Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> in
<hcb-DB0F9E.09480513052005@newsgroups.comcast.net> wrote:

>In article <vj0he.24534$RG2.18878@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, "Paul F
>Austin" <pfaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote:

[snip]

>> Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to endure,
>> on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?
>>
>
>I think the professional jury is out on the use of painful methods for
>very-short-term and critical tactical interrogation ("where is the bomb
>you set?")
>
>The history of effective strategic intelligence interrogation, from
>sources including WWII POW interrogation on both sides, declassified
>documents such as the CIA's journal _Studies in Intelligence_, and, in
>general terms, a fair bit of classified information, suggests fairly
>strongly that effective interrogations often involve forming some sort
>of relationship between interrogator and prisoner. That relationship
>may be very formal and authoritarian, but such that the interrogator is
>clearly in charge, and the prisoner accepts the dominance hierarchy.
>
>In other cases, especially with Western POWs, a certain degree of
>kindness and bonding will work. German records from WWII show much more
>was gained from Allied aircrews by friendly conversation, where things
>would slip, than rubber hoses. Incidentally, it's often quite important
>to record such "soft" interrogations, because the information often is
>from half-completed sentences stopped when the prisoner suddenly
>realizes what they are saying, or essentially neutral social information
>that gives insights into being aware of the motivation and sensitivities
>of individual prisoners, and their group. Going to Joe and asking if he
>had enjoyed his pre-mission movie with John and Bill can give a sense of
>"How much does this guy know?"
>
>Good interrogators have an intuitive, or formal, training in applied
>social science. For example, one technique that has been used with
>Arabs, especially those uncertain what will happen, is for a perfectly
>uniformed interrogator to have the prisoner sit down, and then, in
>authoritative tones, order coffee and tea to be served with great
>ceremony. Some interrogators will even place two filled cups in front
>of the prisoner, and tell them to choose who will drink from which cup.
>By doing so, the interrogator is trying to exploit the Arab customs of
>hospitality, and also establishing the authority -- the one who can
>order a servant to bring the beverages. For someone from a culture where
>harsh treatment is the norm, this action can be MORE disorienting than a
>beating, and helps the interrogator gain psychological dominance.
>
>I suspect that female interrogators who are formal and authoritarian may
>do better than those that flaunt themselves, or threaten to smear with
>menstrual blood. This actually might be an appropriate area for
>experimentation.

In addition harsh techniques work much better on the innocent than the
fanatic. Torture me and I will confess to just about anything to avoid
the pain. Torture a committed fanatic and they will hold out much
longer since they have their faith to support them.



--
Matt Silberstein

All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:07:55 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 13 May 2005 09:27:39 -0500, in rec.photo.digital , Ron Hunter
<rphunter@charter.net> in <wP2he.11610$fY4.4556@fe07.lga> wrote:

>Chris Hayes wrote:
>> Omega d wrote:
>>
>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>>>:
>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
>>
>> tactics
>>
>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>>:
>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>>:
>>>
>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
>>
>> why are
>>
>>>you bitching?
>>
>>
>> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
>> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
>> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>>
>Why not? People here are allowed, at government expense, to place
>crosses in jars of urine, as 'art'. They are allowed to burn flags as a
>protest, or to sew them on the backsides of their pants.

None of those are government sponsored actions. None of those serve to
help our enemies.

>Besides, the
>courts have been flushing the constitution down the toilet for quite a
>few years.

For example? Do you reject Brown, the usual candidate, or Miranda, or
Lemon? What?

--
Matt Silberstein

All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:10:10 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 13 May 2005 14:04:50 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "La N"
<nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> in <6u2he.37885$0X6.32858@edtnps90>
wrote:

>
>"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>message news:0ob9819fs83u3gls2k1b05iuiosfni13ij@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:18:59 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "Omega"
>> <2121(d)@insightbb.com> in <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>>>:
>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>>:
>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>>:
>>>
>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why
>>>are
>>>you bitching?
>>>
>> As a "leftists" I am "into" respecting varying viewpoints. You are
>> right that I oppose the notion of the government, any government,
>> promoting a particular religion. I wonder why so many religious people
>> think they need government help.
>>
>> I am also against the notion of trying to create more enemies for the
>> U.S. You don't seem to mind that.
>>
>
>And the idjit who posted this article - it isn't so much that he's
>into Islam as he is into hating the U.S. Funny how many different
>ways this story can be spun and utilized for political purposes.

I love the U.S. or, at least, what the U.S. stands for. As such I find
the actions with the Koran reprehensible. It not only violates our
principles for an agent of the government to attack a religion, it
turns people against our soldiers in time of war. It helps our enemies
and puts our soldiers in danger. It is just about treasonable.


--
Matt Silberstein

All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be
a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus,
there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the
end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce
or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:14:50 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:fng9819vj5v2f6n473r39c4oltomn26o0f@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 13 May 2005 14:04:50 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "La N"
> <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> in <6u2he.37885$0X6.32858@edtnps90>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>>message news:0ob9819fs83u3gls2k1b05iuiosfni13ij@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:18:59 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "Omega"
>>> <2121(d)@insightbb.com> in <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>>>>:
>>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such tactics
>>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>>>>:
>>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>>>>:
>>>>
>>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion, why
>>>>are
>>>>you bitching?
>>>>
>>> As a "leftists" I am "into" respecting varying viewpoints. You are
>>> right that I oppose the notion of the government, any government,
>>> promoting a particular religion. I wonder why so many religious people
>>> think they need government help.
>>>
>>> I am also against the notion of trying to create more enemies for the
>>> U.S. You don't seem to mind that.
>>>
>>
>>And the idjit who posted this article - it isn't so much that he's
>>into Islam as he is into hating the U.S. Funny how many different
>>ways this story can be spun and utilized for political purposes.
>
> I love the U.S. or, at least, what the U.S. stands for. As such I find
> the actions with the Koran reprehensible. It not only violates our
> principles for an agent of the government to attack a religion, it
> turns people against our soldiers in time of war. It helps our enemies
> and puts our soldiers in danger. It is just about treasonable.
>
>

I agree, and I'm canadian. Unfortunately - as in the Abu Grhaib
incident, people who hate the U.S. will make eternal political
hay about such isolated incidents. I participate off and on on
other private lists with different cultures, and I'll tell you these
types of actions reinforce the negative stereotypes that people
have about the U.S. - and particularly the U.S. Military.

- nilita
May 13, 2005 7:38:04 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <1115973263.386480.78220@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>james wrote:
>> In article <1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
>religion,
>> >why are
>> >> you bitching?
>>
>> The left is also into respect, or at least, refraining from taking
>the
>> most disrespectful action possible in a given situation. Our mission
>
>> in that theatre is not supposed to be one of provocation. This one
>> incident may ultimately cost the lives of American men in uniform.
>> But you are comfortable just using it as another subject for your
>tired
>> old "blame the liberals" approach to denial.
>>
>> >Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
>Islam?
>> >What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
>> >down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?
>> >
>>
>> One difference is that the American soldiers would be more amused
>than
>> outraged at the idea of flushing middle school social studies
>textbooks.
>>
>
>The US Constitution is not a middle school social study textbook.
>Here's the text here:


You are missing the point. A devout Muslim is going to be a lot more
upset at a deeper level if you desecrate the Koran that way, than even
the most patriotic American will be over the Constitution. Unless
you're talking about desecrating the *original* document, then you
might start to be in the same ballpark of outrage.

I really don't believe that a single instance would be enough to start a
war, but this Koran incident just might.

>http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/ch...
>
>It's the document a person in the military swears their life on and is,
>at least theoretically, the basis of US law.

Yes, but, we aren't a society that, to a man, holds that document to be
the most important aspect of daily life. Perhaps we *should*, but I
promise you, most Americans have not conditioned themselves to study and
ponder the Constitution as the primary spiritual activity, the endeavor
that must occupy any idle time. The people getting upset about this
Koran incident at the prison, *do* have that attribute.
>
>> It simply would not be on the same level of outrage as a cultural
>idiom.
>

>If the USC is not a cultural idiom to the US, then what is?

It's not an apples to apples comparison.

>Only the
>flag comes close. I know the USG treats the Constitution as toilet
>paper, but people still treat the document as if it's been revealed a
>wisdom from on high.
>
Sort of, but certainly not in the same way the Afghanis regard the
Koran.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:40:09 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

james wrote:
> In article <1116000636.827170.307170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:
>
> >It comes from the actions of the US government, who do serious harm
to
> >people in other nations.
>
> I'll just point out that every other nation on the planet that
commands
> a military force, seems to make the choice to support the US and
> reaffirms that choice every day. Because of this, I cannot hold
> the US solely responsible. After all, the Iraq and Afghanistan
> invasions wouldn't have gone on, had they meant triggering a war with
> the allies of the US.
>

Who wants war with a country who can destroy the world several times
over?

> Quite the contrary; all the Western nations seem to either be joining
in
> the mission, or at the very least, are indifferent to it. Certainly
we
> did not hear China, the United Kingom, Germany, etc., declaring that
> they would do everything in their power to prevent the US invasion of
> Iraq. I did not notice Russian ships blockading the Persian Gulf,
> saying "turn back or entering these waters will be considered an
attack
> against Russia."
>
> Nothing at all along those lines.
>

Kind of irrelevant for the US is the 800lb gorilla of the world and
every country would stand far too much to lose by having war with us.

> In my ethos, that puts everybody in the whole goddamned world in
cahoots
> with the US military, and nobody has a finger to point. If they
opposed
> the invasion of Iraq, they could have communicated their opposition
with
> the threat of firepower. It came down to war, and it came down to no
> opposition. Do not claim to have opposed this war if you did not lay
> down everything in order to stop it. It could have been stopped.

How?

>The
> American people would not have supported going to war with European
or
> Asian allies in order to get through them to get to Iraq. Those
> allies could have prevented this war, had they truly opposed it.

I don't believe that at all. The US government is extremely agressive
for one reason: it has such an overwhelming military and makes up a
quarter of the world economy that it can afford to be. For now. But
imperial overstretch will take place and America will be humbled in
time and it'll be lost to the dustbin of history as an empire whose
reach far exceeded it's grasp.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:41:56 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Brian Sharrock wrote:
> "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1115999640.861615.25020@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
>
> snip
>
> > Now that you jarred my memory, I can see how the Council of Hippo
> > (which canonized the books of the Bible) came about at around
400AD.
> > For the first three centuries, Christians were persecuted by the
Romans
> > until Constantine made Christianity the official religion at about
the
> > beginning of the 300's. After settling down, they got to hammering
out
> > a cannon.
> >
> That's quite a trick of metallurgy, hammering out a cannon!
> Really clever these theologians; I expect that they moved on
> to transubstantiation and Eutychianism
> Once 'they' had wrought this device, did they load it with
> ordinance to form Canon Law?
>
> Try Google 'define: cannon' versus 'define: canon'
>

Ooooh, a spelling flame. And a lame one too, for you got my meaning.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:43:50 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Chris Hayes wrote:
> >
> >
> > Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on
> Islam?
>
> That's fine by me -- all the monotheisms can kill each other
> off..."religion is the opium of the people"...this'll be just like
your
> local drug war....
>

Why not destroy all nations while we're at it. Nationalism is the
opiate which still plagues us today after causing such devestation in
the 20th century.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:47:30 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

La N wrote:
> "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
in
> message news:8s0a81dr75h9132hppl3lftlr5f3i0b5tl@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 13 May 2005 15:14:50 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "La N"
> > <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> in <Kv3he.37892$0X6.34986@edtnps90>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com>
wrote in
> >>message news:fng9819vj5v2f6n473r39c4oltomn26o0f@4ax.com...
> >>> On Fri, 13 May 2005 14:04:50 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "La N"
> >>> <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> in <6u2he.37885$0X6.32858@edtnps90>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com>
wrote in
> >>>>message news:0ob9819fs83u3gls2k1b05iuiosfni13ij@4ax.com...
> >>>>> On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:18:59 GMT, in rec.photo.digital ,
"Omega"
> >>>>> <2121(d)@insightbb.com> in <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72>
wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
> >>>>>>:
> >>>>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said
such
> >>>>>>tactics
> >>>>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
> >>>>>>:
> >>>>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
Islam's
> >>>>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
> >>>>>>:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
religion,
> >>>>>>why
> >>>>>>are
> >>>>>>you bitching?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> As a "leftists" I am "into" respecting varying viewpoints. You
are
> >>>>> right that I oppose the notion of the government, any
government,
> >>>>> promoting a particular religion. I wonder why so many religious
people
> >>>>> think they need government help.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am also against the notion of trying to create more enemies
for the
> >>>>> U.S. You don't seem to mind that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>And the idjit who posted this article - it isn't so much that
he's
> >>>>into Islam as he is into hating the U.S. Funny how many
different
> >>>>ways this story can be spun and utilized for political purposes.
> >>>
> >>> I love the U.S. or, at least, what the U.S. stands for. As such I
find
> >>> the actions with the Koran reprehensible. It not only violates
our
> >>> principles for an agent of the government to attack a religion,
it
> >>> turns people against our soldiers in time of war. It helps our
enemies
> >>> and puts our soldiers in danger. It is just about treasonable.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I agree, and I'm canadian. Unfortunately - as in the Abu Grhaib
> >>incident, people who hate the U.S. will make eternal political
> >>hay about such isolated incidents.
> >
> > Isolated? There is plenty of evidence that it is not at all
isolated,
> > it was just the one with the best photos. For example, the U.S. has
> > been shipping prisoners off to Egypt and Uzbekistan, countries
which
> > regularly torture people.
>
> So, you are saying that it is systemic policy in the U.S. Military to
> torture prisoners?

Have you been paying attention to the news? Of course it is.

>It is *not* policy, hence, to treat prisoners
> humanely?

Not in the US. They don't even treat their own citizens humanely in
overcrowded prisons in the whole fraud known as the American Criminal
"Justice" System.

>
>
> >
> >> I participate off and on on
> >>other private lists with different cultures, and I'll tell you
these
> >>types of actions reinforce the negative stereotypes that people
> >>have about the U.S. - and particularly the U.S. Military.
> >
> > Yep. But people here don't seem to see a problem with creating more
> > enemies.
>
> Meaning ... ? <curious>
>

He means that the more people you piss off, the more enemies you create
and that resistance may eventually overcome you. The CIA calls it
"Blowback." A nation, like an individual, reaps what it sowes.
May 13, 2005 7:52:28 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <hcb-F816DD.09354913052005@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
Howard Berkowitz <hcb@gettcomm.com> wrote:

>One would hope that the interrogators doing this have also planned to
>have plumbers available. I have learned, the hard way, to keep the lid
>down, not because of nagging women but from the ability of cats to knock
>things in and cause floods.

I don't think the toilets in prison camps in Afghanistan actually
"flush" in the sense you're thinking.
May 13, 2005 7:54:58 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <WS2he.11636$fY4.6362@fe07.lga>,
Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net> wrote:

>Now I am able to breathe again after rolling on the floor laughing at
>your first statement about 'respect'... If one goes through life trying
>to never offend anyone, he won't have much of a life as someone will
>become offended at almost any statement, or action.

If you're interrogating prisoners of war, there are rules that you're
supposed to follow, and not following them carries consequences that
include the death penalty. We're not talking about how to behave at the
neighborhood doggie park here.

>There was even a
>left-handers group protesting the use of the word 'sinister' to describe
>the actions of a criminal, because the word means 'left' in some
>languages!!! Now how stupid is THAT?

As stupid as any other red herring you'd like to throw.

>Now about showing respect, how about affording some measure of it to the
>US President? I thought not...

What the hell are you talking about? I haven't said a single word
about the President!
May 13, 2005 7:58:31 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <vj0he.24534$RG2.18878@bignews5.bellsouth.net>,
Paul F Austin <pfaustin@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Well, it _is_ an "interrogation". They generally are unpleasant to endure,
>on purpose. You want us to pull out their toe nails?

The treatment of prisoners can have a direct effect on how they fight.
Mistreatment of them has certainly caused the deaths of some of your
countrymen and has escalated the war in two theatres. You're not seeing
the big picture, the *reason* that a certain amount of propriety is
prescribed for the treatment of prisoners of war. Doing the wrong
things to your prisoners will get your brothers killed.
May 13, 2005 8:01:40 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <l_2he.11696$fY4.1308@fe07.lga>,
Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net> wrote:

>So, find a place you can live where you aren't embarrassed, and go
>there. WHY would anyone stay in a country where he hated the government
>that much?

>May I suggest you try the nice free, prosperous island south of Florida?
> I am sure you will get a nice prospective on freedom, and government
>integrity there.

You don't believe in your country if you can hold this "agree with me or
go into exile" attitude. That's *THE* most UNAMERICAN attitude.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 8:16:48 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 13 May 2005 04:39:28 -0700, "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Keith W wrote:
>> "Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1115973263.386480.78220@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > If the USC is not a cultural idiom to the US, then what is? Only
>the
>> > flag comes close. I know the USG treats the Constitution as toilet
>> > paper, but people still treat the document as if it's been revealed
>> > wisdom from on high.
>> >
>>
>> A map is not the territory, the constitution may be revealed wisdom
>> but a copy is just words on paper.
>>
>
>So is every Qu'ran outside of the original inscribed by Muhammed. Is
>that thing even around anymore?

Just to set the record straight, there is no Qu'ran original inscribed
by Muhammed. Muhammed was actually illiterate. What happened is that
his followers wrote down his "revelations" on anything they could find
- parchment, skins, tree bark, etc. when they were given to him by
Allah. After Mohammed's death, a succeeding caliph (successor to
Mohammed - the third caliph I believe) actually compiled all of these
revelations into book form calling them Qu'ran, the Arabic root word
qua'a - to read or proclaim.

Men's Advocate
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 8:59:31 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115968701.126778.161120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Omega d wrote:
>> <eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>> news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>> :
>> : The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said such
> tactics
>> : were used to rattle suspects.
>> :
>> : It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of Islam's
>> : most holy book "down the toilet".
>> :
>>
>> Given that the left is into secularism and being free from religion,
> why are
>> you bitching?
>
> Maybe because it makes the "war on terror" look like the War on Islam?
> What would you think if insurgents decided to flush US Constitutions
> down the toilet as they interogated American soldiers?

Oh garrrrsh.
Surely that would be MUCH WORSE than having their heads sawed off...
??
May 13, 2005 9:08:45 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <1116000636.827170.307170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Chris Hayes <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote:

>It comes from the actions of the US government, who do serious harm to
>people in other nations.

I'll just point out that every other nation on the planet that commands
a military force, seems to make the choice to support the US and
reaffirms that choice every day. Because of this, I cannot hold
the US solely responsible. After all, the Iraq and Afghanistan
invasions wouldn't have gone on, had they meant triggering a war with
the allies of the US.

Quite the contrary; all the Western nations seem to either be joining in
the mission, or at the very least, are indifferent to it. Certainly we
did not hear China, the United Kingom, Germany, etc., declaring that
they would do everything in their power to prevent the US invasion of
Iraq. I did not notice Russian ships blockading the Persian Gulf,
saying "turn back or entering these waters will be considered an attack
against Russia."

Nothing at all along those lines.

In my ethos, that puts everybody in the whole goddamned world in cahoots
with the US military, and nobody has a finger to point. If they opposed
the invasion of Iraq, they could have communicated their opposition with
the threat of firepower. It came down to war, and it came down to no
opposition. Do not claim to have opposed this war if you did not lay
down everything in order to stop it. It could have been stopped. The
American people would not have supported going to war with European or
Asian allies in order to get through them to get to Iraq. Those
allies could have prevented this war, had they truly opposed it.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 9:14:26 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116024450.741959.113630@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> La N wrote:
>> "Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> in
>> message news:8s0a81dr75h9132hppl3lftlr5f3i0b5tl@4ax.com...
>> > On Fri, 13 May 2005 15:14:50 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "La N"
>> > <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> in <Kv3he.37892$0X6.34986@edtnps90>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote in
>> >>message news:fng9819vj5v2f6n473r39c4oltomn26o0f@4ax.com...
>> >>> On Fri, 13 May 2005 14:04:50 GMT, in rec.photo.digital , "La N"
>> >>> <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> in <6u2he.37885$0X6.32858@edtnps90>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote in
>> >>>>message news:0ob9819fs83u3gls2k1b05iuiosfni13ij@4ax.com...
>> >>>>> On Fri, 13 May 2005 05:18:59 GMT, in rec.photo.digital ,
> "Omega"
>> >>>>> <2121(d)@insightbb.com> in <7NWge.77730$c24.34399@attbi_s72>
> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>><eq@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>> >>>>>>news:1115955565.907134.74820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> >>>>>>: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4525941.stm
>> >>>>>>:
>> >>>>>>: The latest edition of the American Newsweek magazine said
> such
>> >>>>>>tactics
>> >>>>>>: were used to rattle suspects.
>> >>>>>>:
>> >>>>>>: It says that US personnel on one occasion flushed a copy of
> Islam's
>> >>>>>>: most holy book "down the toilet".
>> >>>>>>:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Given that the left is into secularism and being free from
> religion,
>> >>>>>>why
>> >>>>>>are
>> >>>>>>you bitching?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> As a "leftists" I am "into" respecting varying viewpoints. You
> are
>> >>>>> right that I oppose the notion of the government, any
> government,
>> >>>>> promoting a particular religion. I wonder why so many religious
> people
>> >>>>> think they need government help.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I am also against the notion of trying to create more enemies
> for the
>> >>>>> U.S. You don't seem to mind that.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>And the idjit who posted this article - it isn't so much that
> he's
>> >>>>into Islam as he is into hating the U.S. Funny how many
> different
>> >>>>ways this story can be spun and utilized for political purposes.
>> >>>
>> >>> I love the U.S. or, at least, what the U.S. stands for. As such I
> find
>> >>> the actions with the Koran reprehensible. It not only violates
> our
>> >>> principles for an agent of the government to attack a religion,
> it
>> >>> turns people against our soldiers in time of war. It helps our
> enemies
>> >>> and puts our soldiers in danger. It is just about treasonable.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>I agree, and I'm canadian. Unfortunately - as in the Abu Grhaib
>> >>incident, people who hate the U.S. will make eternal political
>> >>hay about such isolated incidents.
>> >
>> > Isolated? There is plenty of evidence that it is not at all
> isolated,
>> > it was just the one with the best photos. For example, the U.S. has
>> > been shipping prisoners off to Egypt and Uzbekistan, countries
> which
>> > regularly torture people.
>>
>> So, you are saying that it is systemic policy in the U.S. Military to
>> torture prisoners?
>
> Have you been paying attention to the news? Of course it is.
>
>>It is *not* policy, hence, to treat prisoners
>> humanely?
>
> Not in the US. They don't even treat their own citizens humanely in
> overcrowded prisons in the whole fraud known as the American Criminal
> "Justice" System.

If you were a criminal...
....Which country would you prefer to be prosecuted and/or imprisoned in?
I would wager that you'd fare better as a prisoner in the US than just about
ANYWHERE else.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 10:20:58 PM

Archived from groups: sci.military.naval,us.military.army,alt.military.retired,soc.men,rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Chris Hayes" <hayes1@fadmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115999640.861615.25020@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>

snip

> Now that you jarred my memory, I can see how the Council of Hippo
> (which canonized the books of the Bible) came about at around 400AD.
> For the first three centuries, Christians were persecuted by the Romans
> until Constantine made Christianity the official religion at about the
> beginning of the 300's. After settling down, they got to hammering out
> a cannon.
>
That's quite a trick of metallurgy, hammering out a cannon!
Really clever these theologians; I expect that they moved on
to transubstantiation and Eutychianism
Once 'they' had wrought this device, did they load it with
ordinance to form Canon Law?

Try Google 'define: cannon' versus 'define: canon'

--

Brian
    • 1 / 17
    • 2
    • 3
    • 4
    • 5
    • More pages
    • Next
    • Newest
!